Sex

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 25, 2002 2:57 am

ethics, if a couple people showed up to do a mob that i twinked id prolly give them the eq. if i showed up with a group to do a mob that gets solod all the time by class x, person y, or guild z, then id prolly be a dick and call the rules into play and take the mob. this is not to say that I think the evil group was right, id like to hear what they have to say about the situation. I'll say this though, Ive never known any of them to be greedy or loot whores or unwilling to help out their fellow evil.

as for the dorks who wanna be judge and start spouting off crap like oh ya were goign to hide the key every boot. all i can say is yea add more fuel to the fire that'll fix things faster.. no better yet that will make things right. who are you kidding

so about these new rules

So if a lich is soloing chlora and a group of 5 rolls up then the group gets the mob? how about if the lich has an enchanter? how about if a group of 5 is doing it and 15 show up? is this more based on whether a group is twinking a mob like with a zone border or fighting it straight up?

id like some clarification so i dont run afoul of the rules at a later date.

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 01-25-2002).]
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Fri Jan 25, 2002 3:05 am

i promised sok to be nicer on the boards, so here goes!

nothing will change Image


1 month after pwipe i was in ic vault with an evil group. we were there prob 30 mins after boot. we did malice and were in process of getting red key. goodie group walks in and loots key form the coropse as soon as it falls. i petition, i get repsonse

'it's not cool to leap frog a group that's been there for 20 minutes'

i told my group that the goodies had been here a while and had done archie and a few other partas, but my group still wanted to go through, get the rhemo and leave.

that's not cool man, i dont care what rules say what.

Image
Jurdex
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Postby Jurdex » Fri Jan 25, 2002 3:25 am

"ethics, if a couple people showed up to do a mob that i twinked id prolly give them the eq. if i showed up with a group to do a mob that gets solod all the time by class x, person y, or guild z, then id prolly be a dick and call the rules into play and take the mob."

It was a mob that was being done by one person. No one was around. If Lilithelle(or anyone else this coule happen to) saw the group or they asked, she(they) might well have let the group have it. We won't ever know because the GROUP did not ask her.

"this is not to say I think the evil group was right, id like to hear what they have to say about the situation. I'll say this though, Ive never known any of them to be greedy or loot whores or unwilling to help out their fellow evil."

This isn't a goodies versus evils issue. Its one group stealing another person's kill. Someone even said Isma didn't want to do it, so what does that say then if it is true?

(My bad, I misread his original post.)

Bottom line:

Lilithelle quested the key. It was her mob. If she takes the key and puts it elsewhere, no one is going to find it and take the mob while she solos it. However, she didn't go hide it, she left it outside because she was confident no one would come steal the rare and use the key SHE quested FIRST if she died.

Guess a couple people decided to prove her wrong.

Another sad day for all Sojourners when people show this little class and respect, evils and goodies aside.

I still can't believe a God would say this was legal knowing ALL of the facts (the key for example).

Dornax
Jurdex

[This message has been edited by Jurdex (edited 01-24-2002).]
Yasden
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Postby Yasden » Fri Jan 25, 2002 4:00 am

I think people are forgetting why evils are called evils.

We're not supposed to be:
  • nice
  • courteous
  • considerate
  • yielding to good races
  • handing you the kleenex to wipe your dainty elven asses
  • forgiving
  • forgetting
  • caring what you think
  • merciful
  • understanding
  • gracious
  • using proper table manners
  • clean
  • good

We *ARE*, however, supposed to be:
  • evil
  • ruthless
  • leaving the toilet lid up
  • killing squirrels and myconids
  • vindictive
  • vengeful
  • fearless
  • predators
  • scoundrels
  • pillagers
  • eating still-beating hearts of elves, dwarves, and humans
  • bastards
  • hateful
  • menacing
  • neurotic
  • chaotic
  • psychotic
  • killing

But hey...who am I to define evil?

(Any smartass comments directed towards me will be ignored. :P)

You assume evils just trade away all eq they get right away....we mostly give things out to people, far moreso than goodies.

Now as for tact...it was a little tactless but I'm thinking it was more of a big misunderstanding than anything. It's not like Lilithelle can't just go and solo it again next time it loads.

Deathmagnet

P.S. Can't we all just get along? :P
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Postby Teyaha » Fri Jan 25, 2002 4:04 am

sound like targsk reciting the 'scout motto'
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Postby Kerath » Fri Jan 25, 2002 4:13 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jurdex:
<B>"I think the evil group was right, id like to hear what they have to say about the situation. I'll say this though, Ive never known any of them to be greedy or loot whores or unwilling to help out their fellow evil."
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoa whoa whoa... hold the phone, that is -not- what Kiryan/Caz wrote. I think, if you go back and reread his post, you'll find the sentence reads "this is not to say that I think the evil group was right, id like to hear what they have to say about the situation." I don't care to venture an opinion on this topic as a whole, but I couldn't let this one slide. I don't know if you fabricated this as an attack at Caz, or if it was an honest mistake. I hope the latter.

- Vadral
Maladryn
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Postby Maladryn » Fri Jan 25, 2002 4:13 am

Wow I can't believe this. They should have saw your corpse in there and realize that someone else was attempting this kill. I thought the gods had final say on whose rare it was however? Shouldn't this have been handled upstairs?

Maladryn
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Postby Tasan » Fri Jan 25, 2002 5:51 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Maladryn:
<B>Wow I can't believe this. They should have saw your corpse in there and realize that someone else was attempting this kill. I thought the gods had final say on whose rare it was however? Shouldn't this have been handled upstairs?

Maladryn</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From what I've read, someone did intervene, and ruled in favor of the evils.

As per the problem here, it has nothing to do with a god ruling or otherwise. A simple tell asking someone about something was all that was required.

Guess we should load mobs with new eq:

You see an elf.

worn on heart Courtesy

The next time one of those 4 complains about something should be shown the same courtesy.

Glad you can all provide a good example to the new players.

Twyl
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Postby Nokie » Fri Jan 25, 2002 2:41 pm

You guys (the 'evils' in question) have no class and some of you deserve no respect for your actions.

This whole scenario reminds me of the time when some goodies hopped the wrong portal (back when goodies could enter evil portals and vice-versa) and died in an evil hometown. A log showed at least one of the 'evils' having such a wonderful attitude by saying "fuck goodies".

I'm sure it's only a small collection of bad apples, but you make your entire side of the fense look like a bunch of assholes.

Thanks for making this a worse place to play, guys.

Disgusted,
Nokie Quickfingers
torkur
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Postby torkur » Fri Jan 25, 2002 5:31 pm

Goodie vs Evils, acting like a jerk is acting like a jerk. We're all human irl. :P

Also, I have a question wouldn't mind an answer for please since this "rule" is new to me......

If a group can steal a mob from someone there first, but soloing it for the eq, does that mean when I'm playing my alts and flee out cause I'm soloing something 15 levels above me, another group can come and just walk through and kill it now too? Lots of mobs cast or heal faster than PCs, so in theory they could fully heal if I have a bad run or two before I finish them off (example: double critic rounds can happen :P).

Alot of people here solo for their xp under level 35 or so, or is this rule only regarding eq mobs/zones?

And if they can't steal it, what's the difference? I thought taken was taken whether it's an enchanter spending an hour soloing a dockie or a dragon?
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Postby Salen » Fri Jan 25, 2002 5:57 pm

Zrax
If you can't see that 'rather than the group where someone probably needed a first set' is not a comment Corth made you are a fool.
If indeed Corth did not mention the concept of who 'needed' it, then you have added your own comments to the post and attributed them to him. Thus you aren't just restating and the Jackass argument still stands.

You should probably look up the word illiterate while you are at it, as you obviously A)have no idea what it means, or B) have no idea how to use it correctly. Unfortunately, you will have to put down your books on programming; the word wouldn't be defined in there. However, you can still avoid contact with live people because there are myriad (*smile* Rag's)dictionaries online.
As for inarticulate, that's a subjective call, so you can believe that about me if you like.
Zrax
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Postby Zrax » Fri Jan 25, 2002 6:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Salen:
<B>Zrax
If you can't see that 'rather than the group where someone probably needed a first set' is not a comment Corth made you are a fool.
If indeed Corth did not mention the concept of who 'needed' it, then you have added your own comments to the post and attributed them to him. Thus you aren't just restating and the Jackass argument still stands.

You should probably look up the word illiterate while you are at it, as you obviously A)have no idea what it means, or B) have no idea how to use it correctly. Unfortunately, you will have to put down your books on programming; the word wouldn't be defined in there. However, you can still avoid contact with live people because there are myriad (*smile* Rag's)dictionaries online.
As for inarticulate, that's a subjective call, so you can believe that about me if you like.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A subset of the definition for Illiterate is as follows.
b : violating approved patterns of speaking or writing.

I suppose characterizing you as illiterate based on your posts is as subjective as deeming you inarticulate, however, you did spell the word before, as be for.

Personally I don't care what you think Salen. If you liked my post, agreed with my post, hated my post, or even if a massive rift in the earth opened up to swallow you whole and destroy you forever, it would matter little to me. My post was just meant as a little jibe at Corth as Malacar so astutly sniffed out. If i had known a shrewd thinker the likes of Malacar was on the case i may well have refrained from posting entirely. However our clever dective was able to mask his presence before he struck.

So now I feel I must apologize to Corth. You can resume sifting through the endless posts on these boards, searching desperatly for that post where Miax invites you back and apologizes to you for something you brought on yourself. If it helps any I have a few old log files, and can write you a program that will slowly scroll them down a window so you can relive your glory days of old.

On the topic of the post, sorry Lilthelle got burned, she has always seemed cool in the limited dealings I have ever had with her. Goods have done the same shit to evils before, I guess it sucks being on the other side of the fence.

Have you ever killed the ancient brownie after another group has failed it? The admiral? The warden?

Shit happens, get over it, Lilthelle did it seems.
Corth
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Postby Corth » Fri Jan 25, 2002 6:51 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
<B>
So now I feel I must apologize to Corth. You can resume sifting through the endless posts on these boards, searching desperatly for that post where Miax invites you back and apologizes to you for something you brought on yourself. If it helps any I have a few old log files, and can write you a program that will slowly scroll them down a window so you can relive your glory days of old.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Trying to bring me back into this eh?

Corth
sok
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Postby sok » Fri Jan 25, 2002 6:59 pm

thanks guys 2 hrs gone. sweeeeeeet!!! only 6 more hours til the weekend. i hope other topics can drag this long.

sok

ps. zrax u need to piss more folks off
Ilshadrial
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Postby Ilshadrial » Fri Jan 25, 2002 7:11 pm

I hope that rule is not true someone said Miax stated. A group can take a persons kill. Why even play on the mud if you can't even solo a mob and test your abilities, RARE MOB or not.

Lilithelle I have a sword you can have.

Sojourn3 the more gentle Mud? Sojourn2 was the more gentle mud, there was like no tension anywhere.

Ilshad
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Postby Corth » Fri Jan 25, 2002 7:24 pm

Ilsha:

Thats a good question. It probably deserves its own thread.

Corth
Zrax
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Postby Zrax » Fri Jan 25, 2002 8:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B> Trying to bring me back into this eh?

Corth

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.


Oh did anyone else find it hillarious that like 2 posts after I mentioned glory days of old Ilshad shows up with a post.
Ilshadrial
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Postby Ilshadrial » Fri Jan 25, 2002 8:39 pm

Too funny...

Lilithelle is a very good friend of mine and we were guild mates on Duris in several wipes.

I have lots of posts Zrax? *pondering if your weird or something, and I am still around, just not apparent*
Blung
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Postby Blung » Fri Jan 25, 2002 8:59 pm

Zrax, doesn't matter what they say. Some people just have bigger mouth than other. It's good for whining, bitching and moaning.

It been proven last wipe and this wipe, that Evils are more cooperative and dedicated to their race compare to the Goodie. Last wipe, even though Mplor call it no strategy on taking Tiamat and company. But without the suppose of the Evil gangs, there would not be close battle. Some people can talk the talk but can't walk the walk.
An old man once ask, "Would you rather try and fail or Not to try it at all?"

This wipe Evil get the task of trying out the Ress quest in Avernus. If evil are not close and dedicated to each other. We would not have never finish that quest.

Yeah you can call it what you want, but if each individual does not willing to risk their eqs/exp/and time for a common goal. Then you can sit back, log on the bbs, read and whine about it.


So Yasden and company, if you think Evils are a bunds of A-Hole. I can lived with that. Rather than a bunds of people who don't know their identity and pretending to be what they're not.


Blung take no prisoner.
Magruk Eat Elf
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Postby Magruk Eat Elf » Fri Jan 25, 2002 11:40 pm

Well I guess it's time to throw in my unwanted $.10...

When I look at situations I like to take a step back and look objectively, and then like everyone else when it's personal it brings up a whole buttload of other variables.

Well here goes....

1) I haven't seen any responses from the evils involved unless i'm blind, (which is entirely possible) they may respond, they may never that is their perogative. I don't think they should respond if they don't feel the need, maybe they did it to be jerks, (from my limited exp w/them i find that unlikely but always a possibility), maybe they just didn't reallize what was going on, maybe there are other factors involved we are not aware about.

2) In my exp if i was soloing an area/mob and it shitcanned me, whether due to simply dumb luck, inexp, lack of resources etc. I would be upset if another "group" came in and killed it, even if it's a rare, sure i'd have a tif, but look at it this way, it's rare, it "IS" going to load again, granted eq is out there that's great, and better then other, but i personnally don't think it's something to cry and whine about. If a soloist came in and mob was damaged, or dead, and other pc stole item, or killed em and took it after all that work, then i'd report it.

3) Seriously folks, when you walk into a room with a corpse in it, how often do you look in it to see if it's fresh? I doubt very few if any actually do. If i walk through an area and see a corpse, and a mob i'm after if mob is excellent, i'm gonna kill it, unless of course i pass/see this person in zone looking as if they are cr'ing or setting up for a run on it.

4) The situation does change if you have to spend the time to setup a significant group to assist and another group procedes, and they just bypass the group to go after a mob or piece of eq.

5) I do feel sorry for those who lost the eq due to this sit, and am personnally curious as to the evil's why's but like i said if we never know why, that's up to them.

6) snuffing evil vs good, you can't really go the evil is kill this, and good is protect that syndrom, evil/good is entirely based on perception. (I'm going to bring up an example of a semi-recent horrible event as reference) Sept 11th, US attacked by terrorists. US and several other countries, agast sorry, this is an "EVIL" act right? Well according to sympathizers this was a "GOOD" act. So you can't relly define evil vs good with deeds, it's all on perception, you're referencing more toward chaotic - lawful. Chaotic selfish gain ei.. chaotic would kill for personal profit, lawful help others before yourself, lawful would kill to protect others, difference? They both commit murder so who is evil? Lawful GOod Paladins go around killing evil why? because they don't believe the way they do, lawful evil a-p's same killing goods because don't believe same way.

7) All of this is based on "EACH INDIVIDUAL PERSON", to one person this is right, to another wrong, each person's perception is their own, one person is going care a lot, another not at all, some will give items up, some will keep them, others even will give it away.

FINALLY: (Although I probably forgot something i was gonna say.) So essentially you shouldn't (<-- I couldn't use "can't" because people are going to anyways) "JUDGE" a person on your perceptions. Their perceptions are more then likely gonna be different.
AND PERSONALLY: (this is the flame part altho it is gonna target the starter of this topic it is directed at all of those "nameless" ones who do or have done the same thing) I think you and all others who would ask of others to "not like", "not help", "hate" others because "you" helped them or for any other reason some dimwitted yuppy is going to come up with. I mean seriously what kind of "JERK" is going to do something like this? I can't believe anyone would actually stoop to ask others to "NOT GAME" with other individuals for something as trivial as this. Asking something like this alone would seriously piss me off. Since I don't really know you I reserve my personal judgement however if anyone asked me to "not be friends with so&so because I don't like them" That would end any kind of friendship with the asker right then and there. That is just one of the lowest things I think any individual could stoop to. And if I had been asked this I would no longer work with the said individual who asked me to decide between them and others. Others will always win out.

Like I said each person is going to give their own judgement on any situation, this is just "MY" personal judgement, this may be similiar to some other peoples views and completely opposite to others. It is up to the individual to decide.
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Postby Treladian » Sat Jan 26, 2002 12:11 am

"3) Seriously folks, when you walk into a room with a corpse in it, how often do you look in it to see if it's fresh? I doubt very few if any actually do. If i walk through an area and see a corpse, and a mob i'm after if mob is excellent, i'm gonna kill it, unless of course i pass/see this person in zone looking as if they are cr'ing or setting up for a run on it."

I do very frequently. So do a number of others. If the corpse has eq in it and the area has aggros, we then ask the owner if they need a CR. So yes, a lot of us do look in corpses. Of course, this situation is different from most of those since you need to quest a key in order to get into the area in the first place, but that's something that has been covered.

And this really does have nothing to do with goodies or evils. If it was another good group that did this to Lili, or if it was an evil that somehow managed to get to EM and tried soloing the mob that was screwed over, people would still be appalled at the very low actions that took place here.

------------------
"Maybe I should stop and ask for directions . . ."
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Postby Gormal » Sat Jan 26, 2002 12:36 am

Gutless....

and targsk dont even try hiding behind that "we are evil and are roleplaying" bullshit. You've helped me before and I've helped you...technically evils should ostra you for that under those kind of ideals.

if we aren't allowed to solo mobs anymore without someone being able to steal them then we can wave goodbye to another part of this mud that brings in good players...rather then people obsessed with BRUTE FORCE! if you are gonna give us the ability to solo a mob with skill then tell us its against the rules to use it, or that some others get it simply because they have more numbers then i think i may vomit.

anyway...who cares if they were evils or goodies... that was mad twinky period. And by all the rules in the help files...illegal. Asking an admin for help should be a last resort...but the admins are constatly throwing things like this into question when the rules are clearly stated in help files. hrm...talk about a crappy mess.
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Postby moritheil » Sat Jan 26, 2002 1:30 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by sok:
dang i stop reading the bbs for 1 afternoon and all hell breaks loose. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My thoughts exactly =P

I sense a great deal of unneeded rancor on this topic. Well, on the title topic too, but somehow I don't think admins are going to fix *that* issue with a few upgrades/downgrades.

Anyhow... I'd like to know what the conversation was like. Was it Lili comes in "umm guys? I was doing that"
"oh crap sorry but we really need it too, do you mind?"

Or was it like
"excuse me, I believe I was doing that mob"
"wtf is this, you and what group? stfu stupid goodie, trying to claim our mob!"
Ebil is now ignoring you.

I'd like to see the conversation.
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Postby Ebgar » Sat Jan 26, 2002 1:35 am

So evils can claim smoke invasion by all dying up there and lilithelle can't claim a mob by dying? But yet we weren't allowed to go up to smoke invasion (even though i know all those mobs were healed). Just think everyone would like some consistency in things like this. And from what i heard, the evil group could spank over and over til they wanted to quit, and since we all know druids can solo zhalatrax, shouldn't lilithelle have been able to keep trying til she was done or wanted to stop?
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Postby moritheil » Sat Jan 26, 2002 1:36 am

PS - Zrax, I have killed ancient brownie a few times with group, at least once this wipe, without realizing that evils did it first, and thus it didn't have the eq on it. We took the coins, shrugged and moved on.

Lili is a nice person, just frustrated.

Don't know the evils, so I can't comment on them specifically. A lot of evils are nice, and a lot of them have this weird and pathological hatred for more than half the people in a game based on scrolling text.
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Postby Corth » Sat Jan 26, 2002 2:15 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
<B> Yes.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jackass.
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Postby ssar » Sat Jan 26, 2002 3:05 am

Wha?
Still no sex?
Damn.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gormal:
dont even try hiding behind that "we are evil and are roleplaying" bullshit. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seriously, this brings up an important point in the sojourn game I beleive.

(A tangent off topic probably, and this goes for all alignments & races in the game)

There seems to be a broad range of ppl's idea of RP, and that in itself is cool.

However: Regarding disputes etc, Players claiming/thinking "oh it was rp" (even when not exactly using those words but implying it), when in fact there was little if any rp involved at all, disgusts me.

Genuine rp obvious to those concerned would probably lead to kinder and happier resolutions to many player issues/disagreements with hunts, etc, like the one in question.

On with the hunt..

Mogr.
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Postby Wargo » Sat Jan 26, 2002 3:30 am

People, people,

Rare hunting and zone claiming are 2 completely different issues and have different rules associated. I think what we need here is a clearly defined rare/zone distinction. Something like chlora is a rare and should be acted according to rare rules and something like jot invasion which is a zone-wide rare should be acted according to zone rules. Now, just think is this zhala or whatever his name is more like a chlora or an invasion? Also don't mix up the first smoke run. First runs are always exceptions. Image

Yssilk thinks people should stop comparing apples with oranges Image
Guest

Postby Guest » Sat Jan 26, 2002 3:47 am

Ok, here's my two bits on this, as well as a policy clarification if you want to choose to look at it that way.

First, I'll be honest, I should have handled the situation differently. I should have talked to Lili more, and I should have also remembered a certain thing, which is the key, since it is in fact a zone that I finished up (I didn't write it, so that's my partial excuse). I did not realize/remember just what Lilithelle had already gone through to get to Zhalatrax.

Second, I work, as do most people. I also try as much as I can to be online during the day to assist where I can. I was in a hurry to get this resolved at work and didn't spend as much time on this matter as I should have. I apologize.

Finally, in retrospect, Lili should have gotten the sword/equip. Why you ask? Because she had done everything she needed to get to that point, and had died not because she couldn't do the mob, but because of a zone repop.

Going back to explaining why this is a pain in the ass issue to deal with, it's because there IS NOT FINAL AND CONSISTENT ANSWER. Each situation will be a little bit different, and therefore decisions can very. Decision makers can also vary as well as everything else.

Finally, without reading through this entire thread again, I don't know that Miax ever made the hard and fast rule that some people says he has. I also don't think that the gods are out to get soloers, or make this completely a group specific mud. Finally, I think some/most of you take this game way too seriously and need to go have a beer.

Hope this clears some issues up.

Ere
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Postby Yasden » Sat Jan 26, 2002 4:39 am

rofl...Blung...I *AM* an evil...you must've mistook what I said :P

Gormie...you've known me for years...has nothing to do with hardcore RP...but we do have our priorities. When I said that we work for the advancement of the evil races, I meant that.

I only wrote that because of the fact that evils aren't supposed to be some flower-giving buncha wankers. And we aren't. We mean business. But I'm done talking about this, it's just another post that's keeping this thread alive. *bleh*

Deathmagnet
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Postby Selenar » Sat Jan 26, 2002 8:21 am

I speak from first-hand experience, Ilshad had no glory days. *cackle*

-Sel
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Postby Elseenas » Sat Jan 26, 2002 8:42 am

If you want to talk evil RP, then Duergar should never group with Illithids.

End of story.

------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
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Postby Guest » Sat Jan 26, 2002 9:00 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Erevan:
<B>Ok, here's my two bits on this, as well as a policy clarification if you want to choose to look at it that way.

First, I'll be honest, I should have handled the situation differently. I should have talked to Lili more, and I should have also remembered a certain thing, which is the key, since it is in fact a zone that I finished up (I didn't write it, so that's my partial excuse). I did not realize/remember just what Lilithelle had already gone through to get to Zhalatrax.

Second, I work, as do most people. I also try as much as I can to be online during the day to assist where I can. I was in a hurry to get this resolved at work and didn't spend as much time on this matter as I should have. I apologize.

Finally, in retrospect, Lili should have gotten the sword/equip. Why you ask? Because she had done everything she needed to get to that point, and had died not because she couldn't do the mob, but because of a zone repop.

Going back to explaining why this is a pain in the ass issue to deal with, it's because there IS NOT FINAL AND CONSISTENT ANSWER. Each situation will be a little bit different, and therefore decisions can very. Decision makers can also vary as well as everything else.

Finally, without reading through this entire thread again, I don't know that Miax ever made the hard and fast rule that some people says he has. I also don't think that the gods are out to get soloers, or make this completely a group specific mud. Finally, I think some/most of you take this game way too seriously and need to go have a beer.

Hope this clears some issues up.

Ere</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the record, I made no "hard fast" rule regarding Soloists as some have suggested here. Like Erevan, I deal with situations as they arrise to the best of my ability, and no decision is ever perfect. With respect to rare-claiming, I back Erevan's statements above.

We'll work towards defining a consistent policy regading claiming, but the bottom line comes back to something Shevarash said - These things _should_ be handled amongst you the players, as the LAST thing we want to do is be put between feuding players and have to make a call that will be hated one way or the other. If something is nasty enough that it has to be resolved by an admin, then it will be - and you must adibe by the admin's decision.

You dont have to like it, but understand that the Admins are only there to resolve problems that you yourselves cannot. It wont ever be perfect, but we will do our best to stay consistent with our policies. We will work on the mob-claimng rules, and post a new set once we're agreed on the best course.

And No, I am not against soloists in any capacity. What I am opposed to is people Using solo characters to claim mobs or zones they could never do on their own. People Abuse the claiming rules in this way, and it causes alot of head-aches up top as it always ends up in a liars contest. It is true that Sojourn is a group-based mud, and that soloists generally have it pretty tough in this environment. There isnt alot we can do to change that, as the anything designed for soloists gets Crushed by groups, thus preventing us from putting Nice stuff that soloists can get. Like any other game, ours has to be balanced to _some_ standard of player power that the area makers can use to create a worthy challenge. Ours is group-based, and that presents the most fun to the most people. Do soloists get left out somewhat in this? Yeah they do, to be frank, there is very little that a soloist can do compared to what groups have to choose from. For the record I regret this, and we tried pretty hard to find soloists compromises during our 8-month alpha back in 00/01. Soloists do have some neat things to do on the mud, but their plight is one that is well known, and difficult to solve.

Miax


[This message has been edited by Miax (edited 01-26-2002).]
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Jan 26, 2002 12:30 pm

I just wanted to say I posted on this thread.

- Ragorn
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Postby Gura » Sat Jan 26, 2002 7:13 pm

take a tissue, wipe your tears and get over it

Gura
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Postby kiryan » Sat Jan 26, 2002 9:47 pm

you buying that beer erevan?
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Postby Gort » Mon Jan 28, 2002 8:42 pm

I wish common sense were actually common.

However, Lill dropped it, and the others involved seem to have also dropped it, so....


Let's ALL join in, and Drop IT!


Toplack
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Postby Corth » Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:57 pm

He asks us to use common sense and drop the issue.. 2 whole days since the last time anyone posted in the thread.

3nj0y.
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Postby Magruk Eat Elf » Tue Jan 29, 2002 12:00 am

Semi off topic but in reference to some of the "RP" entries. Hiding behind RP? heh.. Seriously if this was a "RP" kind of situation and if "coding/ethicality permitted" If a group of "Evils" walked up on "One Goodie" wouldn't you suppose the "Evils" would take said "Goodie" throw them over a log and have their way with em? I mean try doing a CR after being freshly Sodomized by some well hung Trolls why doncha? Painful situation at best. (The coding part was actually referring to in essence "PK" the individual. NOT actually sodomizing them)
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Postby kiryan » Tue Jan 29, 2002 12:15 am

still bitter that evils did the first smoke invasion ebgar?

>So evils can claim smoke invasion by all dying up there and lilithelle can't claim a mob by dying?

with a 15 man group of 40s yes.

>But yet we weren't allowed to go up to smoke invasion (even though i know all those mobs were healed)

they weren't after our second spank some of the mobs were still at pretty hurt. so much for what you know?

>Just think everyone would like some consistency in things like this. And from what i heard, the evil group could spank over and over til they wanted to quit, and since we all know druids can solo zhalatrax, shouldn't lilithelle have been able to keep trying til she was done or wanted to stop?

the point was that group > soloist not who had the ability to do the zone/mob. and so the ruling was in favor of the group. on retrospect the god thinks he should've ruled in favor of the soloist because of having to quest the key. however, i doubt that a soloist would be able to stake an enforceable claim to mobs like jenna, brownie, green dragon, faerie dragon, talos unless the soloist is fast or the group exceedingly slow.
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Postby Grintor » Tue Jan 29, 2002 3:13 am

*prays we never see artifacts again*

i seen kanthas solo talos
i seen (cleric i cant remember, started with T of course) solo chlora

thank god no more uber weapons
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Postby Nokie » Tue Jan 29, 2002 3:50 am

<I>With practiced ease and lightning reflexes, you plunge a khanjari dagger into
Jenna's back. Shocked, he slumps to the ground and shudders, before breathing
no more.
The poison on your weapon wears off.
You receive your share of experience.
Jenna is dead! R.I.P.
Your blood freezes as you hear the rattling death cry of Jenna.</I>

So as a 'soloist' Nokie can't take a claim on Jenna because another group might come along? Although this 'soloist' is fast, it is offensive that you have some notion a player should be forced to steap aside for another group simply because there are more people in the group. If the 'soloist' is perfectally capable of killing the mob in a reasonable amount of time, he/she should have every right to the mob as a group of 15 people who happened to come along after the 'soloist' already 'claimed' the mob.

Of course, these scenarios have nothing to do with the blatant stealing that went on with Lilithelle since the key had to be quested in the first place. That example, in my opinion, is akin to a group of people running past another group in jot that just killed all the guards in the 2nd gatehouse.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
however, i doubt that a soloist would be able to stake an enforceable claim to mobs like jenna, brownie, green dragon, faerie dragon, talos unless the soloist is fast or the group exceedingly slow.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

------------------
Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
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Postby Corth » Tue Jan 29, 2002 4:22 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Grintor:
<B>*prays we never see artifacts again*

i seen kanthas solo talos
i seen (cleric i cant remember, started with T of course) solo chlora

thank god no more uber weapons</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

shrug, any clerical type can solo chlora if they have plent of time, are high enough level, have good eq, and are skillful. No artifact needed.

Corth
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Postby Grintor » Tue Jan 29, 2002 4:51 am

agree corth, but kanthas didnt need any skill to solo talos, his sword kept him alive (remember him soloing baby red dragons to..ahem..'heal myself up')

however NOW that PC's are far more diverse and of lower power anyone who can solo, and is in the PROCESS of soloing, should be given some courtesy.

what if we had this BBS, and this much freedom to have an opinion, in those days? not only would there be 10 fold the problems there are now, but 90% of the mud population would be banned hehe.

i never liked artifacts. it was like reganomics. the rich got richer, the poor got jack shit.
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Postby Sarell » Tue Jan 29, 2002 5:01 am

Ladak sucks!
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Postby Corth » Tue Jan 29, 2002 5:08 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Grintor:
agree corth, but kanthas didnt need any skill to solo talos, his sword kept him alive (remember him soloing baby red dragons to..ahem..'heal myself up')</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, avernus in particular was ridiculous at one point. Folur can tell you about it if you ask.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
however NOW that PC's are far more diverse and of lower power anyone who can solo, and is in the PROCESS of soloing, should be given some courtesy.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hard to disagree with that. And still the debate rages!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">what if we had this BBS, and this much freedom to have an opinion, in those days? not only would there be 10 fold the problems there are now, but 90% of the mud population would be banned hehe.</font>


Yeah, now only about .25% of the mud population is banned! Image

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">i never liked artifacts. it was like reganomics. the rich got richer, the poor got jack shit.</font>


Smirk. Debatable... but at a different time and place.

Corth
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Postby Gort » Tue Jan 29, 2002 3:05 pm

Sorry, was out for 4 days, didn't look at the posted dates.


Beer Erevan
Beer Miax
Beer Toplack

Beer all
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Postby moritheil » Tue Jan 29, 2002 9:06 pm

magruk... ugh. I'm sorry to say, I don't have much of a bad taste/good taste filter, but that violates even my taste.

Yes, let it die. Even I do not want to ress this thread :P

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