people always bitch about the elite groups. the groups that stick to themselves, and often get shit done fast and efficiently. and often have more eq than you will ever see.
people are always going to complain when they feel excluded from something thats a good thing. too bad, life is based on "discrimination." why wouldnt you choose the people who fit your playstyle and personality over those who dont? Thats everyones right, to choose whats best for you, to discriminate amongst your options.
Elite groups only run into trouble when people get jealous. Man look at all the phat loot those guys have. wonder why they never invite me anywhere. Its not fair they always get to jot before everyone else can even blink. Wouldnt be any complaining if they got spanked everytime they went somewhere and were dressed like a bunch of noobs. Its just your jealousy speaking.
If you want to do something about it, Organize faster and learn tactics. how can you expect to compete with people who approach this game with a fierce desire to be the best and extensive knowledge/tactics. its like "mom and pops" competing with Sears. Do you think you could just walk onto an elite team? maybe some of you could, but most of you got to learn zones. You got to know what is going down before it happens so you dont have to waste time memming, giving instructions, or ressing because someone fucked up.
The biggest problem most of you have going for you is that you dont play enough, you dont play regularly, and or you dont play at the same time. Why is this a big problem, because you can't develop the deep relationships with the other core players. These elite groups are based on a lot of things, most important being trust/dependability and dedication. Next being knowledge.
SO most of us are going to say well i dont want to play like that. Thats not my style. I dont want this game to become like a job. This is only a game not RL. So put up with not being elite. You wanna be elite, do everything the elite players do.
last personal gripe:
when you get in a group, dont bitch about what zone to do. dont threaten to go log your alt so you can bid on eq. dont criticize the leader over gsay. dont threaten to leave if something doesnt go your way. those are all characteristics that will always prevent you from being elite and often even liked. Theres a difference between offering your opinion on a zone or eqsplit and being a 3 year old.
What leader wants to put up with a bunch of whiny bitches in his group? wouldnt you rather log on, tell your follower to consent and go spank zones? You know what happens when you include people who dont have the elite mentality (besides getting the group killed)? They get a bunch of eq, then they get greedier, start fuckign up, and bitch.
This next part is directed more at some of the evils...
my god you got everything handed to you and you are bitching at the leaders who equipped you and your alts. You think you are the evil elite? More like there is no choice. Try and show some respect and loyalty please. Make no mistake the leaders we have on the evil side are very good and have tremendous experience. If you dont think so, dont just think... go out there and prove it before you start complaining, and i dont mean once. i mean lead dozens of zones. lead zones you dont want to lead, and zones you dont need eq from for others.
Were you only in this for yourself? This sounds strange, but that was never what playing the evil side meant. Evils were an elite group that took care of each other in days gone by. Those that didnt have a clue were groomed to become good players. lately, we all look like a bunch of goodie babies.
If you have comments on what else it takes to be elite, id especially like to hear differeing opinions on that.
If you want to flame, really think about what ive said first. and if you cant say everything you want to over the board send the full monty straight to me at michael@kittrell.com
Oh yea, and you elite groups. Dont sit around and bitch the mud is too easy because youve figured out how to exploit every imbalance. Its not easy for everyone. Dont make the mud harder for everyone else, we shouldnt be forced to play up to your level. you want a challenge go do something challenging. Invokers are too powerful, dont take invokers when you do zones or only let them cast single target spells. Invasion too easy, if you dont get there before 25 minutes, let the other group have it. Raise the bar for yourself not everyone else. What are you trying to do, keep everyone else from getting phat loot after you got it? Are you trying to make the bridge between what you can do and what others can do wider? Be satisficed that you kick the most ass and most people are green with envy.
Why your not elite and why youll never be
Hehehe.. you have some good points in there kir.
One thing I should point out is that I believe there are differant types of 'elites'. For example, the group I hang with usually has a few of the same people.. say 6 people that are usually on when we do stuff. Then we'll fill in the rest of the group with others. Yeah, we usually stick to people we have grouped with before who know what they're doing, but if we got extra spots, we'll try to take others. Unfortunately we usually fill up fast and there are people we want to bring that we can't.
If you are willing to give other people a chance, then I think that helps break some of the notion that a group is 'elitist'.. they may still be an elite group, but they don't have an elitist attitude.. that make sense?
I think very few of the people I group with would complain that the mud is too easy. Sometimes we just happen to have the 'golden' combo classes in the group and some good luck and roll over zones, and other times we'll get slapped around. My point is that when you've got the kickass eq, a lot of stuff -should- be easier.. The first several times you get the eq, its tough as hell, and once people get things from the zone, it naturally gets easier. So at that point, move on to a differant zone. Thats what we've been doing.. explore stuff, try new and harder zones. Hell, we went exploring last night and basically didn't get any eq from it, but everyone had a great time.
One thing I should point out is that I believe there are differant types of 'elites'. For example, the group I hang with usually has a few of the same people.. say 6 people that are usually on when we do stuff. Then we'll fill in the rest of the group with others. Yeah, we usually stick to people we have grouped with before who know what they're doing, but if we got extra spots, we'll try to take others. Unfortunately we usually fill up fast and there are people we want to bring that we can't.
If you are willing to give other people a chance, then I think that helps break some of the notion that a group is 'elitist'.. they may still be an elite group, but they don't have an elitist attitude.. that make sense?
I think very few of the people I group with would complain that the mud is too easy. Sometimes we just happen to have the 'golden' combo classes in the group and some good luck and roll over zones, and other times we'll get slapped around. My point is that when you've got the kickass eq, a lot of stuff -should- be easier.. The first several times you get the eq, its tough as hell, and once people get things from the zone, it naturally gets easier. So at that point, move on to a differant zone. Thats what we've been doing.. explore stuff, try new and harder zones. Hell, we went exploring last night and basically didn't get any eq from it, but everyone had a great time.
Why I'm not elite, and why I never will be.
I don't want to be.
Somebody has taken the word "elite" and twisted it to mean something completely different from the very spirit of the word. I don't see the term "elite" as something one can apply to one's self. The true elite aren't bragging about how elite they are. They have a handle on this whole "reality vs. game" thing. They're not flaming the imms for not doing enough, giving enough, being enough. They're not strutting around a pretend world in a costume of colored text bragging about how they're the best. No, the rest of us might not have the time or desire to invest in this game that some do. The real "elite" are those who can balance it all. The ones who take care of their families, work real jobs, succeed in real life through hard work, and still manage to come here and shine when they want to have fun. They're never here on the boards complaining and moaning that this just isn't fair, or that they're being mistreated in some way. They understand that they've been invited to somebody else's house to play hide and seek, and their hosts were kind enough to offer cookies and milk. They're not shooting off at the mouth because they wanted oreo's and all they got were those lousy chips ahoy's!
I won't ever be considered elite. I'm here for the fun. I don't hold anything against any of the people who might actually be considered elite. If you have the best equipment and do the hardest zones, way to go! I'm impressed that you have put that much work into your character and put that much passion into this game. If, however, you have the best equipment and do the hardest zones, you're not really impressive if you stand in front of a room and crow about how elite you are and how everybody else sucks. You just look like an amazingly poor winner and a jackass.
I'd love to stop seeing the use of this word "elite." We all have different goals on this game, we all play for different reasons. If I play for fun, and you play for equipment, do I really succeed less because I walked out of a vault group with only the purple earthstone ring and had a rollicking good time, and you walked out with only the vambs when you really wanted the shroud and you're letting that eat at you until you have a miserable night? I'd say I got more than I expected and everything I hoped for, and I'm happier for the experience.
I've never been one to slather the imms with praise, I tend to reserve my blatant worship for those whom I know. Although I appreciate what they do, something starts to cloy in my mouth when I see threads where everybody starts piling it on, but I'm going to say it now, and I hope they all understand that it is sincere.
Thank you, all you imms, for putting up with us. Thank you for your unbelievable patience and tolerance, even when I know you must be gritting your teeth to hold back the remarks at times. Thank you for the hard work you put into giving us a fun place to play, even though it's never good enough for some. Thank you for continuing to strive for us, even though some of can only seem to be nasty and condescending about it. Thank you for being strong enough to withstand our bitching, even we weren't strong enough to withold it. Thank you for using our constructive criticisms, even though we might not always see them put to use right away, and some of us are very quick to point fingers and raise our voices. Thank you, especially, for giving me a delightful haven I can come to whenever I want to escape reality, and for tolerating me when I act like an idiot. And thank you most of all for not throwing up your hands and saying to hell with all of us who continue to push the envelope and frustrate you to the point of wanting to give it all up again.
If you want to be elite, start by acting a little more mature. And before the flames start, try to realize that I am not referring to anybody in particular, only the attitudes that seem to be growing in the game. Are we such children that when the imms relax their control over our behavior we are incapable of controlling our own selves?
I am so in agreement with Kiryan on most of his points, and I've been so disappointed in the attitudes that have been displayed on the BBS lately that I guess I'm really venting here. I don't see elite as being the highest level with the best equipment. It's an attitude, a very unvoiced attitude. It's the people who can exercise control over their own behavior without throwing temper tantrums and succumbing to jealous squabbles over colored text and pretend skills. It's in the lower level players who stick with it patiently and make the mud a pleasure for everybody around them. It's the people I truly enjoy grouping with, because they are just damned decent people and fun to hang out with. It's the people who think outside the box, who consider the others in the mud instead of their own selfish goals. It's the ones you don't hear from, the ones who aren't bitching the loudest, but are sitting back to listen. It's the people who hit 40 and remember they were friends with you yesterday, before they started hanging out with the big guys. It's the little guys who are still there for you, even when you feel your control slipping and act like the jerks you can't stand.
I can't say I know any "elites" in the way many of you view the term. I know some great people, people who are very high level and have really nice equipment, people who have rocked zones I've never even heard of, who have finished quests I may never get done. I've also known some people who have accomplished the same things, but were total pricks about it, people who use anybody in any way they can, people who walk over anybody who gets in their way, people who have to cry "mama" whenever something doesn't go their way, people who throw tantrums when they don't get what they want. You might care less about my opinions, but if you're a total ass, no matter what level or eq you have, you're still JUST a total ass.
You wanna be elite?
Forget the word "elite" exists.
I don't want to be.
Somebody has taken the word "elite" and twisted it to mean something completely different from the very spirit of the word. I don't see the term "elite" as something one can apply to one's self. The true elite aren't bragging about how elite they are. They have a handle on this whole "reality vs. game" thing. They're not flaming the imms for not doing enough, giving enough, being enough. They're not strutting around a pretend world in a costume of colored text bragging about how they're the best. No, the rest of us might not have the time or desire to invest in this game that some do. The real "elite" are those who can balance it all. The ones who take care of their families, work real jobs, succeed in real life through hard work, and still manage to come here and shine when they want to have fun. They're never here on the boards complaining and moaning that this just isn't fair, or that they're being mistreated in some way. They understand that they've been invited to somebody else's house to play hide and seek, and their hosts were kind enough to offer cookies and milk. They're not shooting off at the mouth because they wanted oreo's and all they got were those lousy chips ahoy's!
I won't ever be considered elite. I'm here for the fun. I don't hold anything against any of the people who might actually be considered elite. If you have the best equipment and do the hardest zones, way to go! I'm impressed that you have put that much work into your character and put that much passion into this game. If, however, you have the best equipment and do the hardest zones, you're not really impressive if you stand in front of a room and crow about how elite you are and how everybody else sucks. You just look like an amazingly poor winner and a jackass.
I'd love to stop seeing the use of this word "elite." We all have different goals on this game, we all play for different reasons. If I play for fun, and you play for equipment, do I really succeed less because I walked out of a vault group with only the purple earthstone ring and had a rollicking good time, and you walked out with only the vambs when you really wanted the shroud and you're letting that eat at you until you have a miserable night? I'd say I got more than I expected and everything I hoped for, and I'm happier for the experience.
I've never been one to slather the imms with praise, I tend to reserve my blatant worship for those whom I know. Although I appreciate what they do, something starts to cloy in my mouth when I see threads where everybody starts piling it on, but I'm going to say it now, and I hope they all understand that it is sincere.
Thank you, all you imms, for putting up with us. Thank you for your unbelievable patience and tolerance, even when I know you must be gritting your teeth to hold back the remarks at times. Thank you for the hard work you put into giving us a fun place to play, even though it's never good enough for some. Thank you for continuing to strive for us, even though some of can only seem to be nasty and condescending about it. Thank you for being strong enough to withstand our bitching, even we weren't strong enough to withold it. Thank you for using our constructive criticisms, even though we might not always see them put to use right away, and some of us are very quick to point fingers and raise our voices. Thank you, especially, for giving me a delightful haven I can come to whenever I want to escape reality, and for tolerating me when I act like an idiot. And thank you most of all for not throwing up your hands and saying to hell with all of us who continue to push the envelope and frustrate you to the point of wanting to give it all up again.
If you want to be elite, start by acting a little more mature. And before the flames start, try to realize that I am not referring to anybody in particular, only the attitudes that seem to be growing in the game. Are we such children that when the imms relax their control over our behavior we are incapable of controlling our own selves?
I am so in agreement with Kiryan on most of his points, and I've been so disappointed in the attitudes that have been displayed on the BBS lately that I guess I'm really venting here. I don't see elite as being the highest level with the best equipment. It's an attitude, a very unvoiced attitude. It's the people who can exercise control over their own behavior without throwing temper tantrums and succumbing to jealous squabbles over colored text and pretend skills. It's in the lower level players who stick with it patiently and make the mud a pleasure for everybody around them. It's the people I truly enjoy grouping with, because they are just damned decent people and fun to hang out with. It's the people who think outside the box, who consider the others in the mud instead of their own selfish goals. It's the ones you don't hear from, the ones who aren't bitching the loudest, but are sitting back to listen. It's the people who hit 40 and remember they were friends with you yesterday, before they started hanging out with the big guys. It's the little guys who are still there for you, even when you feel your control slipping and act like the jerks you can't stand.
I can't say I know any "elites" in the way many of you view the term. I know some great people, people who are very high level and have really nice equipment, people who have rocked zones I've never even heard of, who have finished quests I may never get done. I've also known some people who have accomplished the same things, but were total pricks about it, people who use anybody in any way they can, people who walk over anybody who gets in their way, people who have to cry "mama" whenever something doesn't go their way, people who throw tantrums when they don't get what they want. You might care less about my opinions, but if you're a total ass, no matter what level or eq you have, you're still JUST a total ass.
You wanna be elite?
Forget the word "elite" exists.
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ShaylaRose
- Sojourner
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: OR, USA
As someone far from being "in", I must say that your post was very intersting and informative, Kiryan.
One part I would like to stress is that last paragraph. I see a lot of people demanding downgrades to PC to make the game harder, wanting XPs to be harder, for EQ for newbies to be harder to get or to not give EQ away. I was told that because I didn't take 5 months to get to level 20, I was disrupting the nature of the game. I think these people have lost complete sight of what it is like to be relatively new to Sojourn, much less new to mudding. All I can think is that these people just want to have the mud completely to themselves and not have any "new blood" enter into the game.
Also, it seems to me that there has to be more than Jot (and similar) to go to. Harder places. Maybe I am wrong, though.
Finally, I was very warmed to read Rylan's post because its people like him that make me want to continue to play on Sojourn and try to learn more so that I can experience more and enjoy more.
Hugs!
Shayla
- Aedyra the Elven Enchantress
One part I would like to stress is that last paragraph. I see a lot of people demanding downgrades to PC to make the game harder, wanting XPs to be harder, for EQ for newbies to be harder to get or to not give EQ away. I was told that because I didn't take 5 months to get to level 20, I was disrupting the nature of the game. I think these people have lost complete sight of what it is like to be relatively new to Sojourn, much less new to mudding. All I can think is that these people just want to have the mud completely to themselves and not have any "new blood" enter into the game.
Also, it seems to me that there has to be more than Jot (and similar) to go to. Harder places. Maybe I am wrong, though.
Finally, I was very warmed to read Rylan's post because its people like him that make me want to continue to play on Sojourn and try to learn more so that I can experience more and enjoy more.
Hugs!
Shayla
- Aedyra the Elven Enchantress
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
Who are you Kiryan?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Does it matter? Sometimes a little anonymity in a post helps it come across a bit better. But he/she probably doesn't want to have to deal with retaliation against his/her character. Can you blame em?
Who are you Kiryan?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Does it matter? Sometimes a little anonymity in a post helps it come across a bit better. But he/she probably doesn't want to have to deal with retaliation against his/her character. Can you blame em?
Liked and agree w/ most of what was said by pretty much everyone.
Shev, can I see that proc.... on say... Tyros? hehe
In short I'd like to be in the room as long as it wasn't an area proc. Feel free to god ress him after... hehe
Definately here to have fun, see new and exciting places, meet strange and unusual creatures.... and kill them.
Toplack
Shev, can I see that proc.... on say... Tyros? hehe
In short I'd like to be in the room as long as it wasn't an area proc. Feel free to god ress him after... hehe
Definately here to have fun, see new and exciting places, meet strange and unusual creatures.... and kill them.
Toplack
<B>e·lite or é·lite (-lt, -lt)
n. pl. elite or e·lites
A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status;
The best or most skilled members of a group:
A size of type on a typewriter, equal to 12 characters per linear inch. </B>
Heh.. Piss off. You didn't show any balls, NOBODY is jealous of you, and your little dissertation doesn't say anything more than how how poor your values are.
There are two ways you can live your life. You can look for every angle to advance yourself, get what you want, and let greed lead you around like a leash, or you can help other people and make an impact on their lives. Pick one, but don't make excuses when people shake their heads at you and call you a prick. Selfishness is not an endearing trait.
n. pl. elite or e·lites
A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status;
The best or most skilled members of a group:
A size of type on a typewriter, equal to 12 characters per linear inch. </B>
Heh.. Piss off. You didn't show any balls, NOBODY is jealous of you, and your little dissertation doesn't say anything more than how how poor your values are.
There are two ways you can live your life. You can look for every angle to advance yourself, get what you want, and let greed lead you around like a leash, or you can help other people and make an impact on their lives. Pick one, but don't make excuses when people shake their heads at you and call you a prick. Selfishness is not an endearing trait.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lyt:
<B> Does it matter? Sometimes a little anonymity in a post helps it come across a bit better. But he/she probably doesn't want to have to deal with retaliation against his/her character. Can you blame em?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well that is certainly his perogative, and in a way i can see how there can be a benefit to hiding ones identity, however i think standing behind what you have to say lends credibility to what a person has to say. I was just curious however it wasnt because his post angered or inspired me, he/she has posted many lengthy threads, some I have agreed with, some I havn't, the question was purely that, my curiousity.
<B> Does it matter? Sometimes a little anonymity in a post helps it come across a bit better. But he/she probably doesn't want to have to deal with retaliation against his/her character. Can you blame em?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well that is certainly his perogative, and in a way i can see how there can be a benefit to hiding ones identity, however i think standing behind what you have to say lends credibility to what a person has to say. I was just curious however it wasnt because his post angered or inspired me, he/she has posted many lengthy threads, some I have agreed with, some I havn't, the question was purely that, my curiousity.
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Gindipple
- Sojourner
- Posts: 676
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: O' Fallon, MO. USA
- Contact:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ensis:
<B>Heh.. Piss off. You didn't show any balls, NOBODY is jealous of you, and your little dissertation doesn't say anything more than how how poor your values are.
There are two ways you can live your life. You can look for every angle to advance yourself, get what you want, and let greed lead you around like a leash, or you can help other people and make an impact on their lives. Pick one, but don't make excuses when people shake their heads at you and call you a prick. Selfishness is not an endearing trait.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your view suggest everyone should be the same and give til it hurts. Well guess what it ain't never gonna happen. It's even falling apart in Russia. The greed of some entrepenuers(sp?) is what makes a great country. Not everyone can be at the top and some people must be at the bottom. It's likely to fit a basic bell curve.
It's kinda like denying there is a devil, yet proclaiming there is a god. Or ya can't have good without evil. They coexist and support each other.
Also: by your own definition of elite it suggest nothing of being selfish.
I wonder what you think of people like Bill Gates who have more money than anyone in the world. Keep in mind they give away more money than most will see in their lifetime.
Is he a bad person because he hasn't given YOU any?
<B>Heh.. Piss off. You didn't show any balls, NOBODY is jealous of you, and your little dissertation doesn't say anything more than how how poor your values are.
There are two ways you can live your life. You can look for every angle to advance yourself, get what you want, and let greed lead you around like a leash, or you can help other people and make an impact on their lives. Pick one, but don't make excuses when people shake their heads at you and call you a prick. Selfishness is not an endearing trait.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your view suggest everyone should be the same and give til it hurts. Well guess what it ain't never gonna happen. It's even falling apart in Russia. The greed of some entrepenuers(sp?) is what makes a great country. Not everyone can be at the top and some people must be at the bottom. It's likely to fit a basic bell curve.
It's kinda like denying there is a devil, yet proclaiming there is a god. Or ya can't have good without evil. They coexist and support each other.
Also: by your own definition of elite it suggest nothing of being selfish.
I wonder what you think of people like Bill Gates who have more money than anyone in the world. Keep in mind they give away more money than most will see in their lifetime.
Is he a bad person because he hasn't given YOU any?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gindipple:
<B> I wonder what you think of people like Bill Gates who have more money than anyone in the world. Keep in mind they give away more money than most will see in their lifetime.
Is he a bad person because he hasn't given YOU any?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
YES!!!!
<B> I wonder what you think of people like Bill Gates who have more money than anyone in the world. Keep in mind they give away more money than most will see in their lifetime.
Is he a bad person because he hasn't given YOU any?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
YES!!!!
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kiryan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
- Contact:
kiryan was my everquest name my real name is michael. I like to argue. I like like contributing to a community. I played avial/doji/sisserro few others in days gone by. currently im caz the 41 troll warrior. I dont fear criticism or being wrong (I do however fear mystra and the gods! i still reel from that time i was caged for 9 months). I came back to sojourn three weeks ago, and im working my way up. Some of you will say i dont know shit about this go around. well, i'd say I have a fresh perspective.
I was amazed at the generosity I experienced in my first couple days back from people I didnt know and didnt know me (Thanks Turxx, Ykor, Ruxur, Ruagh, Xedez, couple others i cant remember your names). Some of the evil spirit still exists.
Unfortunately, for the last 2 weeks, I've been amazed at the difficulties people put some leaders through most prominently sok/edak. I saw/heard sok swear and lose his temper for the first time in about 4 years yesterday. I've heard other prominent leaders talk about the same things Ive spoken to previously. Go back and read soks post on "dont want to zone" and think about where you would be without leaders like sok. And dont even think your the same caliber of a leader as sok/lazz/foulr/toddrick/kurz/mikar/trogar/qualith and the others I dont remember or know unless you lead jot and brass at least 20 or 30 times not to mention the other zones like cc. Leading a zone is easy, being a leader is not.
Leaders arent just people who take you around to get eq. They are people too. Alot of you will say you put your time in and you helped folks get as much as you got. What do leaders get out of it? Headaches and criticism. In previous wipes, leaders used to claim one piece of eq from every zone they lead (cleric almost claimed twilight one time heh). Whatever piece they wanted for whatever reason and you didnt bitch because if you didnt get invited youd be sitting a 3w playing with yourself. We've come a long way from those times, but people have gone from begging to get into zone groups to breaking up zone groups if they dont get their way. that suxors.
and for those of you that dont follow sok anymore because you think he sucks as a leader, i think you ought to pond (drop over water) the eq he lead for you or are you only brave enough to go your own way now that you have everything. If your such a great player/leader go prove it. (ok dont really pond your eq. that would be just dumb but think about where youd be if you did.) sok started leading zones for you guys at level 29 this wipe. what have you done besides reap the rewards? when was the last time someone got thanked for leading a zone?
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 10-01-2001).]
I was amazed at the generosity I experienced in my first couple days back from people I didnt know and didnt know me (Thanks Turxx, Ykor, Ruxur, Ruagh, Xedez, couple others i cant remember your names). Some of the evil spirit still exists.
Unfortunately, for the last 2 weeks, I've been amazed at the difficulties people put some leaders through most prominently sok/edak. I saw/heard sok swear and lose his temper for the first time in about 4 years yesterday. I've heard other prominent leaders talk about the same things Ive spoken to previously. Go back and read soks post on "dont want to zone" and think about where you would be without leaders like sok. And dont even think your the same caliber of a leader as sok/lazz/foulr/toddrick/kurz/mikar/trogar/qualith and the others I dont remember or know unless you lead jot and brass at least 20 or 30 times not to mention the other zones like cc. Leading a zone is easy, being a leader is not.
Leaders arent just people who take you around to get eq. They are people too. Alot of you will say you put your time in and you helped folks get as much as you got. What do leaders get out of it? Headaches and criticism. In previous wipes, leaders used to claim one piece of eq from every zone they lead (cleric almost claimed twilight one time heh). Whatever piece they wanted for whatever reason and you didnt bitch because if you didnt get invited youd be sitting a 3w playing with yourself. We've come a long way from those times, but people have gone from begging to get into zone groups to breaking up zone groups if they dont get their way. that suxors.
and for those of you that dont follow sok anymore because you think he sucks as a leader, i think you ought to pond (drop over water) the eq he lead for you or are you only brave enough to go your own way now that you have everything. If your such a great player/leader go prove it. (ok dont really pond your eq. that would be just dumb but think about where youd be if you did.) sok started leading zones for you guys at level 29 this wipe. what have you done besides reap the rewards? when was the last time someone got thanked for leading a zone?
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 10-01-2001).]
Elitists, Eq, and Leaders... Oh my. Heres what I know of them.
Elite: Play a lot or have in the past. Zone or have zoned a lot. Lead occasionaly or almost always. Know things that newbies don't (understatement). Have nice eq and lots of high level friends. Helped probably too many people on too many occasions to count. Help people everday. Can't help everyone _all the time_ and still enjoy the game (most respected and constant leaders are the exception).
Eq: Fun to get (even if you got spanked). Not always fun to split (some people whine). Accessory to the game. Improves your characters abilities. Not something to get worked up about. Unless stolen (very rare). Not the main purpose of the game for most.. but everyone likes it. Should not be got for the sole purpose of sale to other players (opinion).
Leaders: Command respect. Organize people. Get blamed for group spanks. Can't please everyone all the time. Know when they have an awesome group. Don't neccessarily have to know the zone you are doing (common misconception). Zones are easier when they know the zone by heart. Zones aren't as fun when they know the zone by heart (opinion). Are not discouraged to lead a zone just because nobody knows it. Could be anyone who is respected and reputable, with a good deal of knowledge of grouping, battle tactics, and decision making.
-Jaznolg
Just tried to stick with the facts.
Elite: Play a lot or have in the past. Zone or have zoned a lot. Lead occasionaly or almost always. Know things that newbies don't (understatement). Have nice eq and lots of high level friends. Helped probably too many people on too many occasions to count. Help people everday. Can't help everyone _all the time_ and still enjoy the game (most respected and constant leaders are the exception).
Eq: Fun to get (even if you got spanked). Not always fun to split (some people whine). Accessory to the game. Improves your characters abilities. Not something to get worked up about. Unless stolen (very rare). Not the main purpose of the game for most.. but everyone likes it. Should not be got for the sole purpose of sale to other players (opinion).
Leaders: Command respect. Organize people. Get blamed for group spanks. Can't please everyone all the time. Know when they have an awesome group. Don't neccessarily have to know the zone you are doing (common misconception). Zones are easier when they know the zone by heart. Zones aren't as fun when they know the zone by heart (opinion). Are not discouraged to lead a zone just because nobody knows it. Could be anyone who is respected and reputable, with a good deal of knowledge of grouping, battle tactics, and decision making.
-Jaznolg
Just tried to stick with the facts.
I should add that most things I said in my last post were already pointed out by Caz, and I liked/agreed with his post.
Except for the "evils having everything handed to them" comment. That was not entirely true... true of the writer I know (this wipe anyways). It is partially true when you have a leader as talented as Lazzraxxuum... but I'd like to think I did my job good too (cept for that one time I aread in demi they won't let me forget.. still think its funny tho.. *snicker*).
A lot of evils do get everything handed to them at this stage in the wipe tho. Some people ask constantly for handouts.. I help when I can. Handed to them being.. not even being in the group that got you the eq you wear. Some could say my alts fall in that category.. I disagree. *duck*
I miss the days back on another mud I played with a limited playerbase and all brand new zones. It is way more fun to go into zones that nobody knows anything about yet and maybe even get spanked in the process than breezing right through straight to all the good eq.. in my opinion. I am also one of the people that sometimes say the mud is too easy... and I am still waiting for my area spell downgrade.. if that is the answer. Best left to the gods. They run a kickass mud and wouldn't mess it up.
About the sok leading comment. Heres my truthful opinions of him leading. Keep in mind he only leads 5 zones that I know of. I admitedly don't give him the same respect that I give to the level 50 people that lead. I'd like to point out that the groups he leads don't need much leading and people just know him from previous wipes and allow him this honor I guess. Everyone he leads has dont Brass, Jot, TF, CC, and IC enough to know the deal. Only knowing 5 zones is not a big deal to me.. only ever doing those same 5 is. Hell I'd rather follow him zones he doesn't know just cuz I like exploring entire zones instead of running straight for the eq. He did start leading at level 29.. and gave him a lot of shit for not being useful to the group too. I would lead zone groups at his level too if I could pull it off.. or if my friends would let me.. but still I personally would want to be useful. Not only that but he eats poisonous bread all the time... *scold sok* *snicker me*. But anyhow.. he is a good guy and I like him all right.. but I not gunna leave him alone till he level 46. There would have been a couple spanks he lead that could have gone much differently had he been level 46... and I think these are some reasons people don't like to group with him.
Also.. as far as people not wanting to do certain zones all the time I understand that. Yes.. even this game has diminishing maginal utility (little economics for ya) and replay value only goes so far. Is that the elitist thinking that everyone hates? Just because someone has done the zone you want them to join your group for over 100x and they don't have fun there anymore? I don't think they should be looked down on for that. Would you rather they just not play to avoid getting shit for it like some others do?
Everyone plays here to have fun. I sometimes catch myself forgetting that in my own quest to have fun. But in any event.. everyone should do what they want and have fun doing it. If you can't do what you want right now.. look forward to the day you can. I ain't mad atcha if your fun is not my fun... maybe our fun will mix again tommorow.
-Jaznolg, Elitist Asshole and Nice Guy.
Damn that was one hell of a rant there.
[This message has been edited by Jaznolg (edited 10-02-2001).]
Except for the "evils having everything handed to them" comment. That was not entirely true... true of the writer I know (this wipe anyways). It is partially true when you have a leader as talented as Lazzraxxuum... but I'd like to think I did my job good too (cept for that one time I aread in demi they won't let me forget.. still think its funny tho.. *snicker*).
A lot of evils do get everything handed to them at this stage in the wipe tho. Some people ask constantly for handouts.. I help when I can. Handed to them being.. not even being in the group that got you the eq you wear. Some could say my alts fall in that category.. I disagree. *duck*
I miss the days back on another mud I played with a limited playerbase and all brand new zones. It is way more fun to go into zones that nobody knows anything about yet and maybe even get spanked in the process than breezing right through straight to all the good eq.. in my opinion. I am also one of the people that sometimes say the mud is too easy... and I am still waiting for my area spell downgrade.. if that is the answer. Best left to the gods. They run a kickass mud and wouldn't mess it up.
About the sok leading comment. Heres my truthful opinions of him leading. Keep in mind he only leads 5 zones that I know of. I admitedly don't give him the same respect that I give to the level 50 people that lead. I'd like to point out that the groups he leads don't need much leading and people just know him from previous wipes and allow him this honor I guess. Everyone he leads has dont Brass, Jot, TF, CC, and IC enough to know the deal. Only knowing 5 zones is not a big deal to me.. only ever doing those same 5 is. Hell I'd rather follow him zones he doesn't know just cuz I like exploring entire zones instead of running straight for the eq. He did start leading at level 29.. and gave him a lot of shit for not being useful to the group too. I would lead zone groups at his level too if I could pull it off.. or if my friends would let me.. but still I personally would want to be useful. Not only that but he eats poisonous bread all the time... *scold sok* *snicker me*. But anyhow.. he is a good guy and I like him all right.. but I not gunna leave him alone till he level 46. There would have been a couple spanks he lead that could have gone much differently had he been level 46... and I think these are some reasons people don't like to group with him.
Also.. as far as people not wanting to do certain zones all the time I understand that. Yes.. even this game has diminishing maginal utility (little economics for ya) and replay value only goes so far. Is that the elitist thinking that everyone hates? Just because someone has done the zone you want them to join your group for over 100x and they don't have fun there anymore? I don't think they should be looked down on for that. Would you rather they just not play to avoid getting shit for it like some others do?
Everyone plays here to have fun. I sometimes catch myself forgetting that in my own quest to have fun. But in any event.. everyone should do what they want and have fun doing it. If you can't do what you want right now.. look forward to the day you can. I ain't mad atcha if your fun is not my fun... maybe our fun will mix again tommorow.
-Jaznolg, Elitist Asshole and Nice Guy.
Damn that was one hell of a rant there.
[This message has been edited by Jaznolg (edited 10-02-2001).]
Yawn!
If people call someone an elitist prick for always bringing the same guys to a zone, then I'm elite too.. *nod me*
I like to hang with friends when I zone, so sue me.
I'm no super expert on zones but evils didn't have any leaders playing european wipes so I tried to something lead everyday..
I did Jot until all in the regular crew had the basic items from it, I did sg and dk enough times and then I started doing demi every single day for a month so that everyone could get all eq from it.
/Jegzed
ps. NO I haven't quit, just busy as HELL at work right now..
If people call someone an elitist prick for always bringing the same guys to a zone, then I'm elite too.. *nod me*
I like to hang with friends when I zone, so sue me.
I'm no super expert on zones but evils didn't have any leaders playing european wipes so I tried to something lead everyday..
I did Jot until all in the regular crew had the basic items from it, I did sg and dk enough times and then I started doing demi every single day for a month so that everyone could get all eq from it.
/Jegzed
ps. NO I haven't quit, just busy as HELL at work right now..
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B>
I'm no super expert on zones but evils didn't have any leaders playing european wipes so I tried to something lead everyday..
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Coughcoughcough
What we need is more european PLAYERS, between you and me we can lead everything except 9 hells I think
<B>
I'm no super expert on zones but evils didn't have any leaders playing european wipes so I tried to something lead everyday..
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Coughcoughcough
What we need is more european PLAYERS, between you and me we can lead everything except 9 hells I think
Heck Sok has been leading so long that I can't remember how longs its been He was leading as Sok while in Wyrm as a I was still a newbie. I used to follow him then, and I would follow him now if I played an evil. I have no trouble following and even dying with my fellow old timers. Lazz is the same way as he was always leading stuff as Lokke when he was in Wyrm as well. How come all the evil leaders used to be Wyrmies? *snicker*
Viva la Wyrm
He was leading as Sok while in Wyrm as a I was still a newbie. I used to follow him then, and I would follow him now if I played an evil. I have no trouble following and even dying with my fellow old timers. Lazz is the same way as he was always leading stuff as Lokke when he was in Wyrm as well. How come all the evil leaders used to be Wyrmies? *snicker*Viva la Wyrm
Sok is a good leader.
how many of you NEW leaders can lead sf or roots?
alright then!
(how many know what SF even is!)
and folks are right, there is more to leading than just knowing the zone. the biggest thing you need is patience and with all the crap folks are giving him lately he's been very very patient. what gripes me most of all is folks who are level 50 now, this being their first evern time on this mud, telling him how to play the game.
er hello? anyone else besides me see something wrong with this? hell a lot of you bitching and moaning about sok didnt have to do jot 30 times before you got a piece you wanted, or brass 20 times before you got even 1 piece.
PUHLEAZE!
how many of you NEW leaders can lead sf or roots?
alright then!
(how many know what SF even is!)
and folks are right, there is more to leading than just knowing the zone. the biggest thing you need is patience and with all the crap folks are giving him lately he's been very very patient. what gripes me most of all is folks who are level 50 now, this being their first evern time on this mud, telling him how to play the game.
er hello? anyone else besides me see something wrong with this? hell a lot of you bitching and moaning about sok didnt have to do jot 30 times before you got a piece you wanted, or brass 20 times before you got even 1 piece.
PUHLEAZE!
-
Fezbozz
- Sojourner
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Leesburg,Indiana, US
- Contact:
I played an evil last wipe and got into zone groups for the first time since I started playing here. I mostly grouped with Lazzaraxxum but I did do a couple zones with other leaders as well. I am playing goodies this wipe. I really miss those days last wipe. I can say that Lazz almost always included me in groups and taught me a lot about zoning not actually leading but just knowing what to do and what not to. He always answered my questions when I had them and I always thought he was a great leader know matter what any one else had to say. I think the so called elite players don't owe it to anyone to take them along for the ride but I know at least in Lazz's case he took me along and probably others who weren't so called elite players. My point is other leaders are probably the same way but they can't take everyone and while it sucks to be left out and sometimes it may make you feel like these players are pricks if you get to know them you would see different. I thanked Lazz everytime he took me with him and I thank him again now for giving me a chance to do zones with his badass group of players. I really miss all the fun!
Fezbozz\Ronble\Vamuk
Fezbozz\Ronble\Vamuk
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Wargo:
<B>Stop making fun of the gnome clerics please I was the one who played a gnome cleric and I was the ONLY gnome cleric. *note* storage characters and copycats don't count
So, please stop making fun of me :P
Yssilk/Gwubi</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
bleh how many times must i repeat myself, i had a 46 gnome cleric w/ res named Jindle at the same time u got res w/ Gwubi
<B>Stop making fun of the gnome clerics please
I was the one who played a gnome cleric and I was the ONLY gnome cleric. *note* storage characters and copycats don't count So, please stop making fun of me :P
Yssilk/Gwubi</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
bleh how many times must i repeat myself, i had a 46 gnome cleric w/ res named Jindle at the same time u got res w/ Gwubi
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gindipple:
<B> Your view suggest everyone should be the same and give til it hurts. Well guess what it ain't never gonna happen. It's even falling apart in Russia. The greed of some entrepenuers(sp?) is what makes a great country. Not everyone can be at the top and some people must be at the bottom. It's likely to fit a basic bell curve.
It's kinda like denying there is a devil, yet proclaiming there is a god. Or ya can't have good without evil. They coexist and support each other.
Also: by your own definition of elite it suggest nothing of being selfish.
I wonder what you think of people like Bill Gates who have more money than anyone in the world. Keep in mind they give away more money than most will see in their lifetime.
Is he a bad person because he hasn't given YOU any?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Whether or not gates was a bad person was moot. He was taken down a peg because the government couldn't just do nothing.
Gind, the *concepts* of good and evil must exist, but not their practice.
<B> Your view suggest everyone should be the same and give til it hurts. Well guess what it ain't never gonna happen. It's even falling apart in Russia. The greed of some entrepenuers(sp?) is what makes a great country. Not everyone can be at the top and some people must be at the bottom. It's likely to fit a basic bell curve.
It's kinda like denying there is a devil, yet proclaiming there is a god. Or ya can't have good without evil. They coexist and support each other.
Also: by your own definition of elite it suggest nothing of being selfish.
I wonder what you think of people like Bill Gates who have more money than anyone in the world. Keep in mind they give away more money than most will see in their lifetime.
Is he a bad person because he hasn't given YOU any?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Whether or not gates was a bad person was moot. He was taken down a peg because the government couldn't just do nothing.
Gind, the *concepts* of good and evil must exist, but not their practice.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ShaylaRose:
<B>As someone far from being "in", I must say that your post was very intersting and informative, Kiryan.
One part I would like to stress is that last paragraph. I see a lot of people demanding downgrades to PC to make the game harder, wanting XPs to be harder, for EQ for newbies to be harder to get or to not give EQ away. I was told that because I didn't take 5 months to get to level 20, I was disrupting the nature of the game. I think these people have lost complete sight of what it is like to be relatively new to Sojourn, much less new to mudding. All I can think is that these people just want to have the mud completely to themselves and not have any "new blood" enter into the game.
Also, it seems to me that there has to be more than Jot (and similar) to go to. Harder places. Maybe I am wrong, though.
Finally, I was very warmed to read Rylan's post because its people like him that make me want to continue to play on Sojourn and try to learn more so that I can experience more and enjoy more.
Hugs!
Shayla
- Aedyra the Elven Enchantress</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Aedyra that's not really the point. I empathize with your feelings but I must disagree. The basis of all this is sacrifice. They suffered, hard, to get to where and what they are now. Gindipple brought up Russia, where communism failed because those who worked less and suffered little got the same reward as those who worked hard and suffered a lot. I am not saying new players do not suffer. I am not saying that noone should ever help them.
I am saying that one must understand, that people have sacrificed a LOT for this game. Lost sleep, lost grades, etc have taken their toll on the RL aspects of many mudders. For someone else to quickly vault up to their position is, to them, an insult to their sacrifice.
Now, many people say "lighten up, it's a game," and it is superficially true. But you have to think about the RL impact I just mentioned. You can go out and drink, and meet more chicks, or you can level up. You can study a little more and get a little higher gpa, or you can learn zones and quests inside out.
Which do you choose? I'm not implying everyone on the mud is an antisocial freak, or should be. It's simply that those here can see the beauty in a bunch of abstract symbols, embodying high ideals, chance, and basically most of the essentials of life that can be emulated.
So, long story short, do I think everyone should suffer? no, I'm not a Habbalite. But I think that everyone should be actuely aware of the *potential* for suffering, and making things too easy tends to remove this. I personally have helped many who have never remembered me, but I remember the smiles it brought to them when I did it. Why do I help people if I think they should be aware of suffering and sacrifice? I help those who have spent 3 hrs soloing to make a quarter level as a level 1 mage. I don't help those who don't know anyone, have never played, and whine that they saw someone's alt solo a level 20 mob and they should be allowed to do the same.
We have to draw a line somewhere. I apologize; this post got kind of out of hand. But we must realize that it is a basic psychological principle that those things suffered for are cherished; those that came easily are devalued in peoples' minds. We want sojourn to be cherished.
Friendly neighborhood barker,
Mori
PS - on the ongoing posts, this seems to be an approximation of the dialogue I have seen to date.
"I am oldskooled!"
"we ph33r you."
"you are noobs!"
"we are not worthy!"
=) one might even think it catechism.
<B>As someone far from being "in", I must say that your post was very intersting and informative, Kiryan.
One part I would like to stress is that last paragraph. I see a lot of people demanding downgrades to PC to make the game harder, wanting XPs to be harder, for EQ for newbies to be harder to get or to not give EQ away. I was told that because I didn't take 5 months to get to level 20, I was disrupting the nature of the game. I think these people have lost complete sight of what it is like to be relatively new to Sojourn, much less new to mudding. All I can think is that these people just want to have the mud completely to themselves and not have any "new blood" enter into the game.
Also, it seems to me that there has to be more than Jot (and similar) to go to. Harder places. Maybe I am wrong, though.
Finally, I was very warmed to read Rylan's post because its people like him that make me want to continue to play on Sojourn and try to learn more so that I can experience more and enjoy more.
Hugs!
Shayla
- Aedyra the Elven Enchantress</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Aedyra that's not really the point. I empathize with your feelings but I must disagree. The basis of all this is sacrifice. They suffered, hard, to get to where and what they are now. Gindipple brought up Russia, where communism failed because those who worked less and suffered little got the same reward as those who worked hard and suffered a lot. I am not saying new players do not suffer. I am not saying that noone should ever help them.
I am saying that one must understand, that people have sacrificed a LOT for this game. Lost sleep, lost grades, etc have taken their toll on the RL aspects of many mudders. For someone else to quickly vault up to their position is, to them, an insult to their sacrifice.
Now, many people say "lighten up, it's a game," and it is superficially true. But you have to think about the RL impact I just mentioned. You can go out and drink, and meet more chicks, or you can level up. You can study a little more and get a little higher gpa, or you can learn zones and quests inside out.
Which do you choose? I'm not implying everyone on the mud is an antisocial freak, or should be. It's simply that those here can see the beauty in a bunch of abstract symbols, embodying high ideals, chance, and basically most of the essentials of life that can be emulated.
So, long story short, do I think everyone should suffer? no, I'm not a Habbalite. But I think that everyone should be actuely aware of the *potential* for suffering, and making things too easy tends to remove this. I personally have helped many who have never remembered me, but I remember the smiles it brought to them when I did it. Why do I help people if I think they should be aware of suffering and sacrifice? I help those who have spent 3 hrs soloing to make a quarter level as a level 1 mage. I don't help those who don't know anyone, have never played, and whine that they saw someone's alt solo a level 20 mob and they should be allowed to do the same.
We have to draw a line somewhere. I apologize; this post got kind of out of hand. But we must realize that it is a basic psychological principle that those things suffered for are cherished; those that came easily are devalued in peoples' minds. We want sojourn to be cherished.
Friendly neighborhood barker,
Mori
PS - on the ongoing posts, this seems to be an approximation of the dialogue I have seen to date.
"I am oldskooled!"
"we ph33r you."
"you are noobs!"
"we are not worthy!"
=) one might even think it catechism.
-
ShaylaRose
- Sojourner
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: OR, USA
Uh oh. Here I go again!
Moritheil, I died once, fled repeatedly, had exactly 0 notches, and 0 kills, fighting mobs in the newbie zone and level 1 mobs in my hometown when I first started. I had over two hours of play time before my first kill. Don't talk down to me about sacrifice and persistence.
Beyond that, though, in this world of Diablo 2, video game, instant gratification, do you honestly think a MUD will grow if you expect every person to abide by your three hours plus of sacrifice rule before one can even feel the slightest bit of accomplishment? -boggle-
As a member of a society, I find myself wanting to provide an environment where those that follow me find life easier. I could care less if the next enchantress to come along doesn't have to spend hours of her life in wasted effort just because I did. In fact, I vehemently encourage the administrators to make life easier for the next hopeful soul to take that path. What did I learn from my three hours of futility? That I am stubborn stupid and that I wouldn't recommend that to anyone else coming along.
Perhaps you should run around in the cold air wearing nothing but a loincloth while throwing pointy sticks at rabbits and squirrels so you can sleep under a bed of dried leaves, hoping you can get a fire going some night so you don't freeze to death. Maybe you can appreciate what it is to be "human" then.
Me? I am VERY thankful for the modern, easy life I have and hope that the children I bare in the future have it even better than I do now.
Hugs!
Shayla
- Aedyra the Elven Enchantress
Moritheil, I died once, fled repeatedly, had exactly 0 notches, and 0 kills, fighting mobs in the newbie zone and level 1 mobs in my hometown when I first started. I had over two hours of play time before my first kill. Don't talk down to me about sacrifice and persistence.
Beyond that, though, in this world of Diablo 2, video game, instant gratification, do you honestly think a MUD will grow if you expect every person to abide by your three hours plus of sacrifice rule before one can even feel the slightest bit of accomplishment? -boggle-
As a member of a society, I find myself wanting to provide an environment where those that follow me find life easier. I could care less if the next enchantress to come along doesn't have to spend hours of her life in wasted effort just because I did. In fact, I vehemently encourage the administrators to make life easier for the next hopeful soul to take that path. What did I learn from my three hours of futility? That I am stubborn stupid and that I wouldn't recommend that to anyone else coming along.
Perhaps you should run around in the cold air wearing nothing but a loincloth while throwing pointy sticks at rabbits and squirrels so you can sleep under a bed of dried leaves, hoping you can get a fire going some night so you don't freeze to death. Maybe you can appreciate what it is to be "human" then.
Me? I am VERY thankful for the modern, easy life I have and hope that the children I bare in the future have it even better than I do now.
Hugs!
Shayla
- Aedyra the Elven Enchantress
-
kiryan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
- Contact:
I'm pretty experienced player, but never had to level a newbie caster without eq. I tried this time around, about a month ago I rolled an squid, invoker, and enchanter. It was extremely difficult to kill anything. I got 4 bars of exp in 4 hours in the newbie zone. The squid did faired better level 4 after 12 hours. On the other hand i rolled a newbie troll warrior and had him up to level 4 in 3 or 4 hours.
I posted this in another thread, but magic missile should not miss. Its really disheartening to try and do runs on a mob when your magic missiles keep missing. What are we supposed to do pierce it to death?
everyone knows dark elf wizards have no dad. pimpin purple clad gnome clerics will always be pheard!
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 10-04-2001).]
I posted this in another thread, but magic missile should not miss. Its really disheartening to try and do runs on a mob when your magic missiles keep missing. What are we supposed to do pierce it to death?
everyone knows dark elf wizards have no dad. pimpin purple clad gnome clerics will always be pheard!
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 10-04-2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Aedyra that's not really the point. I empathize with your feelings but I must disagree. The basis of all this is sacrifice. They suffered, hard, to get to where and what they are now. Gindipple brought up Russia, where communism failed because those who worked less and suffered little got the same reward as those who worked hard and suffered a lot. I am not saying new players do not suffer. I am not saying that noone should ever help them.
I am saying that one must understand, that people have sacrificed a LOT for this game. Lost sleep, lost grades, etc have taken their toll on the RL aspects of many mudders. For someone else to quickly vault up to their position is, to them, an insult to their sacrifice.
Now, many people say "lighten up, it's a game," and it is superficially true. But you have to think about the RL impact I just mentioned. You can go out and drink, and meet more chicks, or you can level up. You can study a little more and get a little higher gpa, or you can learn zones and quests inside out.
Which do you choose? I'm not implying everyone on the mud is an antisocial freak, or should be. It's simply that those here can see the beauty in a bunch of abstract symbols, embodying high ideals, chance, and basically most of the essentials of life that can be emulated.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I guess I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you trying to say that people should be required to give up their real lives in order to be able to make progress in this game? Are you saying that people who are brand new to the mud should have an absolute miserable time getting to level 2?
Aedyra's right, if you don't make things easier for people to get started then the playerbase will never grow - they'll just go back to playing Diablo II, or whatever other game they have to play.
I am saying that one must understand, that people have sacrificed a LOT for this game. Lost sleep, lost grades, etc have taken their toll on the RL aspects of many mudders. For someone else to quickly vault up to their position is, to them, an insult to their sacrifice.
Now, many people say "lighten up, it's a game," and it is superficially true. But you have to think about the RL impact I just mentioned. You can go out and drink, and meet more chicks, or you can level up. You can study a little more and get a little higher gpa, or you can learn zones and quests inside out.
Which do you choose? I'm not implying everyone on the mud is an antisocial freak, or should be. It's simply that those here can see the beauty in a bunch of abstract symbols, embodying high ideals, chance, and basically most of the essentials of life that can be emulated.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I guess I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you trying to say that people should be required to give up their real lives in order to be able to make progress in this game? Are you saying that people who are brand new to the mud should have an absolute miserable time getting to level 2?
Aedyra's right, if you don't make things easier for people to get started then the playerbase will never grow - they'll just go back to playing Diablo II, or whatever other game they have to play.
-
kiryan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
- Contact:
I think Aeydra has some good points and got to some of what I was trying to get at. Not all of us want to or are going to make the RL sacrifices that others make in their pursuit of happiness via Sojourn. At the same time, you can't expect to achieve on their achievement scale (some things are more important to others such). And I dont think its fair to discount their dedication and pursuit because you wouldnt choose it for yourself.
Achievement in any form has RL implications on psyche. This game could be the only thing keeping someone from being the next una bomber. That person probably needs counseling, but my point is that we all have things that help keep us normal: vacations, family, video games, buying new things, eating, ect... Perhaps for you its the security of your job, bank account, or that people "like" you. A lot can happen when you take away whats important. Is it so wrong that people place RL value on a bunch of glittering ansi?
On the comments about game too hard game too easy and omg are playerbase will shrink into oblivion:
Games where its too easy to achieve the highest level must have variety and newness in order to maintain interest and player base. The fad effect. Easy games draw "social" folks.
Hard games draw people who are focused around achievement. When achievers feel that the amount of work vs reward is lacking or they are unable to advance they get frustrated and leave.
Sojourn balances socializers and achievers by requiring grouping for in game advancement yet providing areas where you can achieve individually via knowledge and equipment.
Personality conflicts and envy between achievers is the biggest source of our problems (in my opinion) while the social aspect of the game does not completely fulfill hardcore socializers as the achievers aren't always comfortable in interaction. Your never going to solve these kind of problems, and your never going to be able to cater to every person. Sojourn can draw from a large population as it is balanced between MUSH and HacknSlash.
Areas where we could improve...
find someway to make lower levels meaningful or funnel everyone to a certain level (obviously this has in part been performed).
find someway to make lower level grouping meaningful.
find someway to increase the variety of methods to achieve in mid levels. Leveling is only exciting for most after the first couple of play days. I think you start running into diminisihing returns in the 20s.
find someway to enhance the socializing aspect of the game. associations will go along way to improve this aspect. player created chat channels would also be great (I'll post a topic under ideas for the chat channels).
in closing, sojourn will grow when we start advertising. its fundamentally a good game. The game mechanics are rare if not unique amongst current offerings and has aspects that fulfill most types of people (cept the pkillers oh wait we have the arena). I doubt we could be as big as an everquest or other graphical muds because we are unable to draw from the audience that likes pictures. A game that has managed to keep a player base of at least 60 people probably closer to 150 for over 5 years is exceptional especially when you consider that many people eventually choose to focus more on RL concerns and leave for that reason.
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 10-05-2001).]
Achievement in any form has RL implications on psyche. This game could be the only thing keeping someone from being the next una bomber. That person probably needs counseling, but my point is that we all have things that help keep us normal: vacations, family, video games, buying new things, eating, ect... Perhaps for you its the security of your job, bank account, or that people "like" you. A lot can happen when you take away whats important. Is it so wrong that people place RL value on a bunch of glittering ansi?
On the comments about game too hard game too easy and omg are playerbase will shrink into oblivion:
Games where its too easy to achieve the highest level must have variety and newness in order to maintain interest and player base. The fad effect. Easy games draw "social" folks.
Hard games draw people who are focused around achievement. When achievers feel that the amount of work vs reward is lacking or they are unable to advance they get frustrated and leave.
Sojourn balances socializers and achievers by requiring grouping for in game advancement yet providing areas where you can achieve individually via knowledge and equipment.
Personality conflicts and envy between achievers is the biggest source of our problems (in my opinion) while the social aspect of the game does not completely fulfill hardcore socializers as the achievers aren't always comfortable in interaction. Your never going to solve these kind of problems, and your never going to be able to cater to every person. Sojourn can draw from a large population as it is balanced between MUSH and HacknSlash.
Areas where we could improve...
find someway to make lower levels meaningful or funnel everyone to a certain level (obviously this has in part been performed).
find someway to make lower level grouping meaningful.
find someway to increase the variety of methods to achieve in mid levels. Leveling is only exciting for most after the first couple of play days. I think you start running into diminisihing returns in the 20s.
find someway to enhance the socializing aspect of the game. associations will go along way to improve this aspect. player created chat channels would also be great (I'll post a topic under ideas for the chat channels).
in closing, sojourn will grow when we start advertising. its fundamentally a good game. The game mechanics are rare if not unique amongst current offerings and has aspects that fulfill most types of people (cept the pkillers oh wait we have the arena). I doubt we could be as big as an everquest or other graphical muds because we are unable to draw from the audience that likes pictures. A game that has managed to keep a player base of at least 60 people probably closer to 150 for over 5 years is exceptional especially when you consider that many people eventually choose to focus more on RL concerns and leave for that reason.
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 10-05-2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ShaylaRose:
<B>Uh oh. Here I go again!
Moritheil, I died once, fled repeatedly, had exactly 0 notches, and 0 kills, fighting mobs in the newbie zone and level 1 mobs in my hometown when I first started. I had over two hours of play time before my first kill. Don't talk down to me about sacrifice and persistence.
Beyond that, though, in this world of Diablo 2, video game, instant gratification, do you honestly think a MUD will grow if you expect every person to abide by your three hours plus of sacrifice rule before one can even feel the slightest bit of accomplishment? -boggle-
As a member of a society, I find myself wanting to provide an environment where those that follow me find life easier. I could care less if the next enchantress to come along doesn't have to spend hours of her life in wasted effort just because I did. In fact, I vehemently encourage the administrators to make life easier for the next hopeful soul to take that path. What did I learn from my three hours of futility? That I am stubborn stupid and that I wouldn't recommend that to anyone else coming along.
Perhaps you should run around in the cold air wearing nothing but a loincloth while throwing pointy sticks at rabbits and squirrels so you can sleep under a bed of dried leaves, hoping you can get a fire going some night so you don't freeze to death. Maybe you can appreciate what it is to be "human" then.
Me? I am VERY thankful for the modern, easy life I have and hope that the children I bare in the future have it even better than I do now.
Hugs!
Shayla
- Aedyra the Elven Enchantress</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Shayla, shayla, shayla.
Read again. I said that people should be *aware* of suffering, so they can appreciate what they have. I don't recall telling everyone ludicrous things like "run around naked" and in fact, I did say that I was not pro-suffering.
If you did indeed suffer through the newbie zone, know that I have done the same thing, many times.
And Galorion, I am not saying people *should* have to give up RL. I am merely pointing out that that is the reality of the situation.
And I am also saying that it is in everyone's interest to make sure that it does not get *too* easy. Clear enough?
Probably not. =)
<B>Uh oh. Here I go again!
Moritheil, I died once, fled repeatedly, had exactly 0 notches, and 0 kills, fighting mobs in the newbie zone and level 1 mobs in my hometown when I first started. I had over two hours of play time before my first kill. Don't talk down to me about sacrifice and persistence.
Beyond that, though, in this world of Diablo 2, video game, instant gratification, do you honestly think a MUD will grow if you expect every person to abide by your three hours plus of sacrifice rule before one can even feel the slightest bit of accomplishment? -boggle-
As a member of a society, I find myself wanting to provide an environment where those that follow me find life easier. I could care less if the next enchantress to come along doesn't have to spend hours of her life in wasted effort just because I did. In fact, I vehemently encourage the administrators to make life easier for the next hopeful soul to take that path. What did I learn from my three hours of futility? That I am stubborn stupid and that I wouldn't recommend that to anyone else coming along.
Perhaps you should run around in the cold air wearing nothing but a loincloth while throwing pointy sticks at rabbits and squirrels so you can sleep under a bed of dried leaves, hoping you can get a fire going some night so you don't freeze to death. Maybe you can appreciate what it is to be "human" then.
Me? I am VERY thankful for the modern, easy life I have and hope that the children I bare in the future have it even better than I do now.
Hugs!
Shayla
- Aedyra the Elven Enchantress</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Shayla, shayla, shayla.
Read again. I said that people should be *aware* of suffering, so they can appreciate what they have. I don't recall telling everyone ludicrous things like "run around naked" and in fact, I did say that I was not pro-suffering.
If you did indeed suffer through the newbie zone, know that I have done the same thing, many times.
And Galorion, I am not saying people *should* have to give up RL. I am merely pointing out that that is the reality of the situation.
And I am also saying that it is in everyone's interest to make sure that it does not get *too* easy. Clear enough?
Probably not. =)
Another thing. I *help* newbies, and I do it much more regularly than most people I see. I've given out more eq and raised more levels than I can count. So when I point out that we don't want to make it too easy, because we already help newbs, why does everyone assume I'm sadistic?
*shrug* Guess I said something non-PC.
But I will tell you this. Muds that are too easy, lose people fast. I personally have seen this happen. You can't have good player retention on a game that's too easy, for reasons that I touched upon above.
*shrug* Guess I said something non-PC.
But I will tell you this. Muds that are too easy, lose people fast. I personally have seen this happen. You can't have good player retention on a game that's too easy, for reasons that I touched upon above.
Elite Elite! I want one!, one question om my mind though? Is it a common thing for peeps to hold back knoledge, to keep others from gaining knowledge of particular zones? If so, Why? I have been helped by so many of you "Elite" wether it be advice about playing my character, or a hand me down! But on thing I have found, is that Knoledge of certain zones, it seems to be a secret or something. <f33d me your noodles> I want to learn...
Well I thought to write a lenghty novel of a reply but this time I wont. Perty much all things I could have written have already been written. Although a few things have not been touched upon yet and I am not going to touch them. I work too much to play like I used to I have a family, kids, friends, etc. If this have been 4-5 years ago Hell yeah I'd be writing a long ass reply and touch upon things most people only think about but never say. I do that on occasion. But then again that is why only a small percentage (very small) still group with me and look forward to my groups. Hell yeah I get spanked all the damn time, hell yeah I grab things that are left over, hell yeah I lead CRAZY shit look at barbarian hordes I lead and helped lead. One thing no one can ever say about me though is that I was a prick and boasted about what I had. and I never will! Ask -ANYONE- I grouped with regularly and the ones in my clan when I was in and then became the leader of Pride. Everyone got what they needed and wanted. and EVREYONE looked forward to at least one spank a day. It was a given. One thing I will touch upon is the whole Knowledge thing I skimmed across in everyones replies. On this mud I have noticed that learning a zone, learning how to do it with fewer people, quest knowledge, eq knowledge, etc. Is kept secret. Hell, from those on soj2 and before. How many people do you know or did you know that would make it a personal vendetta to learn -EVERYTHING- about a certain zone. Mine was BGR and everything east of it on a world map. I knew every secret entrance, etc. I completed all but a -couple quests- and I kept most of it to myself untill I finished something then I let all in my clan know or showed them. I feel that if someone has taken, not days, but months to learn something or figure out something they should be able to savor it for a lil bit then release the knoweldge. But when I hear someone ridicule, insult, degrade someone because they cant lead something and they have the knowledge to lead it and not give them hints or pointers that isnt right. I'm not saying show them outright how to do something but just little bits of advice ad then let them do all the work.
ANyways I ahve rambled on enuff, otherwise this will get really lengthy and be considered a big ass target for flames =P
L8r all,
Nokar Firewolf
p.s. No I've not quit and ran with the loot. I just been working a lot of hours and am just now getting back on dayshift. So be patient my brothers I will return and when I do be ready for a full scale attack and many many many more Nokspanks (tm) to come!
ANyways I ahve rambled on enuff, otherwise this will get really lengthy and be considered a big ass target for flames =P
L8r all,
Nokar Firewolf
p.s. No I've not quit and ran with the loot. I just been working a lot of hours and am just now getting back on dayshift. So be patient my brothers I will return and when I do be ready for a full scale attack and many many many more Nokspanks (tm) to come!
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