read and respond, soj3 no different

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
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Postby Guest » Sat Apr 06, 2002 5:08 pm

Interesting thread.. What Wobb and many of you are experiencing happens Every Single Wipe - without exception, on all muds in the worlds. Allow me to explain..

A mud is 50% game and 50% society. For some its more socialization, for others its more game, but everyone gets some of both out of Sojourn3. But the game aspect IS a game, and no matter how fast we add or change things we could never hope to keep up with the player population. The inevitable result is that players who have done almost all the zones, Tiamat, guilds etc, whatever you have done, will get to the point where they've won the game, they're bored and need something new to spark their interest. Its like any video game you buy in that respect; once youve "Won" the game (or as close as one can come to that in a mud), the game is over. It's not long after that when players become Bored and Frustrated that the game isn't keeping up fast enough to provide new and fun things to do. They start complaining about the mud's many problems as Shad and others have in response. In the end, most people move on after having won the game and spoken their peace, some leave nicely, some don't. It's a phinominon I have observed every mud I've worked on for over 14 years, and Sojourn3 is no exception.

Sojourn3 has now been open for almost a year, and by now its inevitable that many players will have "Won" the game, and many will have moved on. The statement that the game is easier now is true, the younger makers and coders havn't had enough oversight from us Forgers this time around, and both equipment inflation and class-power inflation have exploded to levels I've never seen before +50 hitroll, blind weapon procs all over, Tiamat in 2.5 hours?. No offense to my staff, they do an outstanding job in making a great game! But like all makers and coders, they want their zones to have the next best piece of eq, the next best weapon proc, and it becomes an endless cycle that results in an unbalanced mud. We end up having to do major downgrades, a pwipe, or even a fully new incantation to re-balance things again. (No we arent considering this) The fact that they slaughtered Tiamat (even much improved over old versions) in 2.5 hours is proof of this. Ilshadrials statements about almost No One ever loosing eq on a spank, very few groups truely get spanked in very difficult sitations, also speaks to this. The equipment now in the game is .. sick. The players of Sojourn3 are extremely powerful, and thats just how the game shaped out this time. Does that mean the game is broken or has failed? Hmmmm lets look at that..

Sojourn3 is THE ONLY incantation of a mud that I have seen in which 90+% of the people are generally satisfied with the game. We have had to delete _no one_, and over-all the people are very, very happy here. The staff too have built a comradre and friendship among ourselves that rivals all past versions, frankly its a Joy and Pleasure to work on this mud with the staff. I don't know How it happened or why, but most of the Bad people we dealt with in past versions have moved on, as well as most of the bad gods. What we have left is a friendly atmosphere, a game almost all of the players find Fun, and all around I wouldn't change a thing! Evils are as strong as Goods for a change (just less numerous as usual - most people like to play Good races by nature), and the classes themselves are closer to being balanced today than they have Ever been. They may be more powerful than before, but they are almost all Equally powerful (and those that aren't, we're working on). No deletions, no hatred, lots of happy players, fun game. A game is only as good as how much fun you have with it. So I ask you, is Sojourn3 REALLY broken?

I don't think so. It may have been easier this time around, but I wouldn't give up the satisfaction I see in player faces and the fun we're all having for Anything. I think we did it right this time, and I think the players too did it right. Many of them who were problem players (and even a few this time), turned around and showed us all that they could rise above and overcome, to be better people. I have made great friends here, the mud is Overall very happy with the game, and I can proudly declare (in my view) that Sojourn3 succeeded in its goals.

Despite all that, many players who live for the game will STILL get bored, STILL get frustrated, and STILL leave over it. Wobb I predict is one, Shad was already one who left, and see what they have to say about the game? Image No offense was taken, your words speak directly to my point, and for many like that, someday you'll move on. Everyone who played here dilligently leaves their mark on the game, and becomes a part of her history. My only desire is that when people do move on out of boredom, they leave with a smile and a handshake, we throw em a party, and part on good terms!

Is all hope lost? Here is my view: Many more of us (who are lifers like me) will search out every nook and cranny of the mud for the absolute Best eq in the game, to fight Every mob, to get on as many Quests as they can, to run and work with powerful guilds, to do Tiamat many times. And perhaps most importantly, to BE Here because of the Society, our frineds, our loved ones, and to enjoy the comradre of good friends while playing a game we love. Thats why we can do the same zones over and over, live the same sitautions, and keep coming back. For them, I salute you, and give you our committment that we on the staff will continue to strive forward and improve the game, balance the classes yet more, run more and more quests, and provide one of the very Best fantassy games on the Internet. I can also proudly say that we have THE best staff that any incantation of our mud has Ever had, we have an army of coders, dedicated makers, friendly admins, and a quest sphere thats as large as any on the mud. To you I say with pride, Sojourn will live forever - be one of us as long as like, and expect many good things to come. Image

What Wobb hit on was one of the realities we live with, the game-part of Sojourn is finiate with the respect of new and exciting things. How each person reacts depends on what they get out of Sojourn, and what Sojourn gets out of them. All I hope is that, however you decide, do so with honor and dignity, and leave a positive mark on our World.

Miax


[This message has been edited by Miax (edited 04-06-2002).]
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Postby Sylvos » Sat Apr 06, 2002 5:14 pm

Spelling mistakes are, however... eternal. *wink miax* Image

Sylvos
Guest

Postby Guest » Sat Apr 06, 2002 5:19 pm

Would you have me any other way? :P

My spelling mistakes are because I have severe carpel tunnel and tendonitis, and as such I use a highly specialized keyboard (httpy//www.datahand.com), and because I'm too lazy to care about spelling mistakes. Two kids, demanding job, demanding mud = No time to care about grammer - its the content that matters!

Or as Gormal would say, "spelling > miax"

o_o
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Postby Todrael » Sat Apr 06, 2002 5:22 pm

Playing time: 137 days / 16 hours/ 23 minutes

I still need some eq from Clouds and Tiamat. Definately not bored yet. Having fun. Death pact helped me really feel like my class gave a contribution to groups, and hopefully the quest campaign will re-invigorate my role-playing spirit. Building a zone is also fun and challenging.

One point: there has been at least one person deleted, for multi-playing. It was globalled by Kiaransalee I believe.

-Todrael
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Postby rylan » Sat Apr 06, 2002 8:46 pm

As usual, great post Miax.

I'm curious who defeated tiamat in 2.5 hours though.. you certianly must not mean the whole dragon area starting from the avernus maggot pit?

Didn't know you had carpal tunnel.. oof. Thats a pretty cool looking keyboard tho Image
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Postby Wobb » Sat Apr 06, 2002 11:00 pm

Thanks Miax for the post, I knew someone upstairs would be able to relay this better.

I certainly haven't done all the quests, but I've reached that point where I have or (can) do everything that is already here. It's just like getting 50 (which i've never done any wipe), it's not actually getting, but getting to the point where I know I could that lures me.

After reading all these replies I realize what an old dog I really am, and I realize how much trouble it is for group leaders to ask me to come places now adays, knowing my level of boredom or dissatisfaction (a result of just being here a long time). With that I want to say:

Thanks to everyone who has helped me and spent the hours making it what it was. Although I'll never come out and say it or do it 100%, it's time for the old dog to lay down.

Good luck everyone and have fun.

Wobb
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Postby moritheil » Sat Apr 06, 2002 11:18 pm

Miax for President!

I play to convince people to die in new and hopefully innovative ways.

<> You group-say 'Dakod, I'm Mori... I'm known for leading people to new and exciting deaths. It's a pleasure to meet a new warrior. =)'
< 493h/493H 165p/165P 83v/151V >
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Postby Yayaril » Sat Apr 06, 2002 11:45 pm

That's a pretty gnarly keyboard you have there, Miax.


Yayaril
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Postby sok » Sat Apr 06, 2002 11:55 pm

glad they fixed that thingy that prevented from post on reading bbs. anyways....

1)
a) guild. i understand wat you are saying dornax. however, i disagree that guild should be harder to come by. the solution of guild, assoc, fellowship is good tho. but if there cannot be those 3, then i like it how it is.

b) i was in wyrm for a long time, it's ok. however, the guild i am in now is so much more awesome. my rl buddies. woo! no application process for them to enter, if they want a new primary they can secede etc.

c) at the same time, our guild is based on wat caz said, friendship. i only recruit folks who i have know a long time and i alway advice them that it's not gonna be most powerful, we might not do anything, eq isn't that big of a deal, it's just a bunch of friends. if u have any doubts then another guild is best for you. our guild has grown, prolly a little too faster, but man we have quality folks.

i guess thats it for now

sok
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Postby Jurdex » Sun Apr 07, 2002 2:02 am

I definitely feel those associations have their place here, Sok. Because many players want that. I just advocate a bit more flavor to the whole process. Addition over subtraction! Image

Dornax
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Postby Teyaha » Sun Apr 07, 2002 4:52 am

there are a small handful of players who've been on this game a very long time (6+ years) who've never had the best anything.

we too are lifers, as this game fulfills a need to loot and pillage and to socalize with folks outside our real life world, but we are not as good at the game as many of you (it's like playing street fighter for the first time, or even the 50th time. sometimes even with a lot of practice you'll still suck).

please dont do anything else that will make the true newbie, or less than perfectly skilled player in this game, want to leave, m'kay?
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Postby Rausrh » Mon Apr 08, 2002 2:04 pm

Rausrh < 6 years playing, never made 50 at any time, never been to tia-pet.


------------------
Rausrh licks you.
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Postby Ilshadrial » Mon Apr 08, 2002 2:46 pm

Guild rivalry has always made Sojourn a great place...keeps it interesting and bitchy.
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Postby Gort » Mon Apr 08, 2002 2:51 pm

Kudos Miax! Well said!

Nothing is ever perfect, but we can strive for, and even approach perfection.

I have been here for a LONG time, never got 50, only done Tia when the gods brought her down to TP/WD and we had the wonderspank w/ being god restored after we died only to die again... what fun!

I've done more this wipe than ever, reached a higher level, gained greater skill than ever before. I am FAR from being bored, in fact, I am probably more engrossed than ever.

Thanks again!

Toplack
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Postby Gurns » Mon Apr 08, 2002 5:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Miax:
The statement that the game is easier now is true .... both equipment inflation and class-power inflation have exploded to levels I've never seen before .... Ilshadrials statements about almost No One ever loosing eq on a spank, very few groups truely get spanked in very difficult sitations, also speaks to this. The equipment now in the game is .. sick. The players of Sojourn3 are extremely powerful</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would agree and disagree with this. Though entirely consistent with the fact that Soj3 is so good that folks have hung around for years, many of them long after they have "won".

If you're a good player, if you've been around a while or have been able to hang out with those who have been around a while, if you pay careful attention, and if you're able to get in with a crowd of similar folks, then Soj3 is easier than previous incarnations. But if you're just starting, if you can't get in with a powerful crowd, if you are not driven to learn a great deal about this huge mud, if you don't have many, many hours to put into learning, then I think the mud is considerably tougher than previous incarnations.

So a group of high levels, with a nice mix of classes, folks who know how to play their class, and have good equip...well, they've got a lot more that they can do: more spells, more combinations of strategy and tactics. Nicer equip, although that's partly because nicer equip is more necessary now. A rogue has to have high hitroll to be most useful, a tank has to have huge hps (huge by Soj3 standards) to be most useful. But a LOT of it is skill: good, long-time folks have all the right reactions, they know what to do when it gets nasty. So among these folks, they don't get spanked much. If they do, they know how to do the CR.

But if you're just starting out, what's it like? You have to learn how to group, right from the start. Unless you bring your friends with you, you have to get to know the folks who are on so you can group with them. You have to learn which classes are essential to a group. You have to learn where to go. You can't build your skills and levels in your hometowns anymore, what with justice. There's this trophy thing. And if you mess up, which you will do as a newbie, you die really quick: mobs are more powerful now, and they track, and there are more mobs assisting. If you know what you're doing and can get some good equip, sure, xp isn't that hard at low levels. If you don't, it's tough.

So how many folks that are on are these good, long-time folks? A lot! How many are relative newbies? Not many! So can some of the top guilds roll zones? You bet! But if they'd been playing "that hard commercial game" for 6 years, those players could roll that, too. That doesn't mean that most people, and especially folks just starting out on it, wouldn't get their ass whupped, again and again.

The way I see it, saying Soj3 is too easy by looking at the top players is kinda like saying the Olympic basketball competition for the first U.S. "Dream Team" was too easy. Soj3 ain't too easy, there are just so many superb players, they make it look easy.

Every incarnation of Soj has been harder than the previous one: Soj3 is the toughest one of all. And no, I'm not saying that because I'm a bard and the class has problems. I'm saying that because I've on Soj3 I've grouped with some of the best, most experienced folks, and I've grouped with some of us long-time but not so expert folks, and I've grouped with some true new folks. The best folks make it look easy. The rest of us get our heads handed to us regularly.
Guest

Postby Guest » Mon Apr 08, 2002 6:20 pm

Very, very good points.

I have to agree that the skill levels of our players make it look easy, and as our population of elite players grows older, their skills get better and their knowledge more absolute. Your right in that the game becomes more Complicated every rendition, which is a natural phenominon with a code-base that only grows and improves over time.

Part of the problem too is that the elite guilds DO NOT train new people AT ALL. Most elite guilds like DSR, Imphras, and CC wont even look at you unless your very good and already high level with decent equipment. Aside from some individual contributions of players from these guilds, who help newbies out with questions and even heals (I remember Lilithelle help me alot when I was young).

What I don't see is mentoring, taking someone who is new and showing them the ropes, grouping with them, teaching them the ways of Sojourn - how to grow, survive, and flourish. Example: When I first started on Toril, I was an unknown - no one knew Kor was me. Gorsh, a high-level warrior in one of the top guilds (EA) met up with me once on the road south of WD when I was 22nd level. I did some RP with him, and he offered to take me around and teach me things. He even got me in on some high-level zone trips despite the risk of my death. And I must say, that mentoring taught me more in 1 week than a noobie without help could learn in a month. More importantly, I made contacts with other elite players, built new friendships, and did the networking necessary to eventually get into EA.

Without it, I would have no chance. On Soj3, I see alot of new or less-connected players able to level and survive just fine - They just never leave WD or DK, and live on hand-outs and what limited EQ is available in town at those levels. I know players that have gone from level 1 to 45+ on WD Dock Masters almost exscusively!!! Mid/High level players with almost no knowledge of the zones are common on Sojourn3.

So let me STICK it back on you elites.. Why do you mentor so little? Why is the knowledge so hoarded that it isn't shared?

Do a little math here.. New players are the Only way to keep the population growing and the game continuously fun. Our long-time elite players are numerous to be sure, we worked VERY hard to make a game that would re-attract many we had lost in our past tyrannies, and it worked better than I could have hoped. So as was pointed out, we have alot of very skilled, experienced, elite players. But even those tire, get bored, get sucked up in RL, or whatever.. Already we have seen some of our dedicated ranks move on to other lives, and as such the population of elite players is not growing, but slowly shrinking.

If you mentor newbies that show a little bit of dedication for being on-line often, you would be growing the future, passing the knowledge on to others who will become the Future Heros and legends. There is so little of that, it makes me sad.

While our numbers slowly rise (we hit 185 this week), most of those are noobs or people who aren't in the right clickes to zone, so we have an almost disturbing parallele between elite and noob, rich and poor. The gap is growing, just as it in the rest of the world. Is this the inevitable fate of Sojourn to become like the rest of the world?

I challenge you to answer this, not just in words, but in action. The future of YOUR mud is at stake.

Miax
old depok
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Postby old depok » Mon Apr 08, 2002 9:01 pm

I think that Miax has a great suggestion. i have benefited from knowing one of the players who has been on this mud for 7+ years and who took me around and helped me learn how much more was out there on this mud. I was zoning when I had no right to be and it inspired me to play more and to get to a level where I would be useful (I'm working on it hehe)

I try to pass that along to other begining players and get encouraged to do so by others as well. One of the ship groups I helped organize took along a level 18 rogue who was kind enough to pick the gates for us. He died once and loved it. Didn't cost us anything to do it and he learned some things (as did we DOH forgot to stone the guy with 100 hps *smack*). He actually apologized for dieing when the warrior missed the bash and the mob switched to him.

Hopefully he got to see what a fun time this can be when he gets some more levels and is encouraged to continue to learn and slog through for that experience.

In terms of RP...

I have not been involved in the RP aspect of the mud and when I run into people who are RP'ing I tend to try to RP as well. I am intriqued by this ara of the game as I think it could enrich the experience for those people in the middle levels when the prospect of killing another mob on BGR is enough to force you to log.

***disclaimer***
I am not now nor have I ever been in an association.

In terms of the associations adding RP to the game it seems to me from reading through this thread that there are many people who want RP to be more involved in the associations. I guess I would ask why they don't form an association that asks it's members to RP? Maybe don't make it an obligation or force it on people but make it a focus of the association.

Or make one night a week Role Play night for your association. Try to get other associations and the people outside of the associations to join for that night. Write up a quick concept of what the nights RP will be about in advance. I would bet that the quest gods would even assist you with it if you gave them enough time and details (don't mean to commit you to anything hehe).

I think that the interest is out there for RP'ing I just think that people need some leaders. I would think that this type of experience might also help to expose the mid level player to some of the "elite" players in a way that is intereactive and fun.

Shrug just a thought.

"Ok tonight we need to gather a group of adventurors with midling skills and solve the mystery of the Pirate Ship! It appears that the pirates have enlisted the aid of a cast of characters to run the ship and enslave their human servants (who must die to reach true solice). After that we must enter the far reaches of a far land and search out the Pirate Headquarters and purchase that disguise kit so that our Spy (recently devoting enough skill and stamina to learn this skill from his guild master and needing that disguise kit) can move amongst the people of WD with some stealth (you see he was caught killing the elite guards on the wall while trying to gather information about the pirates)."

Chuckle I know it's lame but I needed to end with something :>)

This game is great :>)
Todrael
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Postby Todrael » Mon Apr 08, 2002 9:52 pm

Miax:
Short answer: Groups are limited at 15 people now. Associations are limited at 30.

Long answer: If I have 30 close friends that log on semi regularly, and at least 15 of those log on regularly enough to put together a zone group, there is just simply no room for the odd man out, the noob that doesn't know anything. Since most zones now 'require' (I put it in quotes because I know it would be a point of contestation, please don't focus on the word) 15 people of the right classes, I will not want to bring the noob, and frankly, not many leaders will either.

I constantly answer questions through tells and over the NHC channel, every day, but I have never taken an 'apprentice', so to speak. I encourage people to learn on their own, then correct them when they go wrong. This often involves non-zone items. In a zoning situation, I am not the leader, but I do try to keep people organized and in the know as to what to do when.

There's no room in my association, or many of my groups, for all of these newer folks you tout we 'need' to show the way. No room for them to observe, no room for them to learn. Once they've shown they can already fulfil the necessary functions of 1 oh so coveted group slot, only then can they come along.

-Todrael
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Postby torkur » Mon Apr 08, 2002 10:37 pm

Figured I could add a paraphrase from a conversation with a RL friend I had friday night since it's relevant to the conversation:

Anyways, I was talking to this friend who's watched me mud a few times on soj3 and heard me talk about it a fair amount. He used to be a god on a different mud, so he thought it'd be cool to roll up a paladin without my knowledge and start, hence noob eq only.

Well, he said he rolled and made it into WD...and didn't know anything. The commands were mostly different, he couldn't really find a place to kill stuff at his level or when he did (he made it just out the east gate and to TP), he didn't get any xp for the neutral mobs even when he could kill em. (Note: about this time I yelled at him for not reading the newbie help docs, but he's stubborn.) He said he was actually about to just quit, but decided he'd ask on the nhc for advice what he was doing wrong.

Well, lo and behold, he spoke to lilithelle who ended up finding him, took the time to drag his sorry butt to the city of the dead, give him something like adamantium leggings, and show him how to get back there and helping him get a level or two. He was floored when I told him who she was on here simply from hearing from me what level 50s normally spend their time doing (zones, quests, etc).

Basically, it kept him interested long enough that I now can give him some early level warrior eq and teach him some more. While this'll probably keep him hooked (his fiance is now gonna KILL me), for someone who doesn't have a level 44 friend who's played 5 years here, it could mean the difference on whether we ever saw him again or not.

It's also the first experience he had on Soj3, and while he can't seem to EVER remember any of the names of my characters, he has no trouble remembering hers. My thanks, Lilithelle.


Just curious: Has any here NOT been helped by lilithelle? Image Hehe, it's like 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon.....oh wait, we only need 3..... Image
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Postby Teyaha » Tue Apr 09, 2002 1:53 am

why do they have to be in your guild, or why do you have to have the free spots to show someone around, or just make a new friend?

when i started it was because it was the only way i could speak to my fiance at the time, who got hooked on this game by tellaerin and had her phone line tied up 24/7. i met a funky conjie named cormalyne, who oddly enough specialized in teleportation cause some punk high level though it was a funny joke when he asked what he's posed to specialize in.

anyway he took me, little brellan level 6 druid to ic. man i was scared shitless. i'd never played a text only game (had been in the game industry for 8 years at that point but never knew wtf a mud was) and was disoriented. he took me under his arm and showed me the ropes, as did a few others that he knew. met okina and narrisse and such for the first time.

then i made grintor, cause druid was boring. i shot up through the levels with a lot of help from other friends, mostly chandigar. when grintor was big and zoning with the wyrmies i had mainly surpassed chandigar, cormalyne, okina and others. i used my connections to get them better gear and started levelling the crap out of them.

to this day cormalyne/alvathair is still my best mud bud, although i've made more. some taught me, i taught some. it's fun.

however miax hit on something that has always pissed me off, something that i've commented on before, which in turned pissed others off. you older players, or better players, hoarde information. information > eq. hoarding it only hurts the mud. hoarding information leads to hoarding eq related to that infomration leads to downgrading eq in question before anyone else can get their hand on it. it's always happened, will prob continue to do so.

why does a new player have to kiss your butt to be your friend?

ranting...later.
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Postby Karikhan » Tue Apr 09, 2002 2:23 am

on the flip side, how did the *l33ts* learn the tricks??

by exploring!!!!

I dont think the comment was meant as a *i wont teach you anything,* but as a *i'd love to help you all i can, point you in the right direction, but get off your butt and explore!!*

and why did i assume Teyaha was a female!! boy do i feel silly!

-Ambar
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Postby sok » Tue Apr 09, 2002 9:47 am

1)
*agree* ambar

when i log on i'm usually in a group. i get bored easily so i gather one. i'm sure you can too with all the folks who are not doing anything.

2) Lla (alt+tab) necro who lead sg a couple of time. good job. u didn't really take the right folks and got spanked, but you get probs (prolly typo) for trying. i'm sure your second trip was better, and i bet your 3rd might be flawless.

I'm not sure if u know ic vault, but if you dont i would suggest you try that next.

3)
i alway believe information is greater than anything else. i'm not sure if i guard it, but i know i'm lazy. enuf said.

sok
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Postby Zen » Tue Apr 09, 2002 1:28 pm

It's hard to know what to say to this. Miax hit the nail right on the head.

I am currently, not inculding the shutdown between soj2 and soj3, in my second year of active play on this mud. I would never have made it off of Evermeet if an older, more experienced player had not grouped with me taken the time to show me the ropes. He didn't leave EM until L24 because of getting me off. There is a lot to be said for mentoring players.

However, as a high level player, I have found the game shift incredibly. Getting into groups is often a struggle, and you are only as good as your last zone. Why is that? Because when the life of your group is at stake, you want someone you can trust. Without reputation among players there isn't much point to playing. For me, that has been one of the more fasinating and challenging aspects of the game.

I don't want the mud handed to me on a platter. I've worked hard for my gear and levels, and I want to be proud of them. I've learned how to lead and learned zones by putting the work into mapping and doing them. But I don't think this is possible for the more complex and difficult zones. Touk taught me Jot by doing it, no one else has even tried to teach me anything.

For newbies, this game is a simple matter of learning the basics, how to xp how to use your class abilities. For high levels, this game is about learning zones and doing things. It shouldn't be easy, but it shouldn't be impossible. Touk and Lili are the only ones who have taken the time to 'teach' me zones, the rest just laugh when I say I'm leading something. Others, not naming any names, ignore or refuse to follow outright. And so far, I've done well at leading, by my estimation.

Before I start rambling into nothingness, I'll bring this post to a point. The kind of teaching, learning and mentoring that's required isn't the kind of help you give a level 1 newbie. It's the kinda of help you give an L50 player who's only mid-range in his experience, and that kind of help takes experience.

No solutions, only questions, but what Miax is talking about it's helping out newbies. We all do that in our spare time, but ultimately that is just a drop in the bucket. What will give longetivity to the mud is helping high level players.

-Blackoak

[This message has been edited by Zen (edited 04-09-2002).]
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Apr 09, 2002 1:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>Miax:
Short answer: Groups are limited at 15 people now. Associations are limited at 30.

Long answer: If I have 30 close friends that log on semi regularly, and at least 15 of those log on regularly enough to put together a zone group, there is just simply no room for the odd man out, the noob that doesn't know anything. Since most zones now 'require' (I put it in quotes because I know it would be a point of contestation, please don't focus on the word) 15 people of the right classes, I will not want to bring the noob, and frankly, not many leaders will either.

I constantly answer questions through tells and over the NHC channel, every day, but I have never taken an 'apprentice', so to speak. I encourage people to learn on their own, then correct them when they go wrong. This often involves non-zone items. In a zoning situation, I am not the leader, but I do try to keep people organized and in the know as to what to do when.

There's no room in my association, or many of my groups, for all of these newer folks you tout we 'need' to show the way. No room for them to observe, no room for them to learn. Once they've shown they can already fulfil the necessary functions of 1 oh so coveted group slot, only then can they come along.

-Todrael</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Truely sad Todrael, I wonder if anyone helped you when you were young?

You spoke to my point exactly, and for that I thank you. Mentoring - taking people around zones and Showing them how the game works - is THE only way someone will really learn. To say you have no time for the newbie is your choice, but I don't respect it. It's this kind of attitude that causes people to percieve folks like you as 'hording' information, and it does nothing to help future generations of the mud.

I applaud you for taking on an apprentice and helping over NHC, at least that helps with basic questions and the like. But it will not be you that trains future zone leaders!

Miax
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Postby belleshel » Tue Apr 09, 2002 1:48 pm

Let me STICK it back on you Image Why do those folks sit around WD? How many hundreds of thousands of rooms are their to explore, quests to do. Not to be a dick by why am I going to go out of my way to show someone the ropes that doesn't have the drive to move out of WD on thier own? I'll help with questions, small equipment, CR's, ect.. but I think you do the mud a severe disservice by coddling our new players too much. I would be far more happy taking someone to a zone with 1/2 the equipment, lower level, it they did it by hard work, rather than given a handout and pleveled. It's almost always these coddled players that make zones a pain in the ass. They didn't learn the hard knocks, things came to easy, and they make zoning less enjoyable. They argue about equipment, they don't listen to the leader, they shoot they're mouths off, ect) To sum up, sojourn shouldn't want every player that logs into the mud, some are too young, some are dicks, some just don't get it, I think losing some of these players can be a real _benefit_ to the mud. It's the players that get themselves dirty, explore, quest, don't get things handed to them, have a pile of corpses around the mud, that learn the sojourn hard-knocks and become great/fun folks to play with.
Coins usually have two sides...
Belle
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Postby Gort » Tue Apr 09, 2002 2:00 pm

Miax,

I agree completely that we need to do more mentoring, it is definately a top down kind of thing. I have zoned more on S3 than ever before, on previous incarnations was an elder in the Clan, and still have zoned more now ( we were VERY class limited then). I have learned a ton about zoning from such diverse peoples as Dornax, Morithiel, Limfor, Touk, Cerlayne, and Nebomosel just to name a few. Some of the knowledge was how to do things smoothly, some was how to have a ton of fun figuring out what not to do, or how it could be done better.

In my experience, the elite guilds have been VERY helpful to me in the mentoring concept, I ask how I can improve, and make sure I ask questions in zone (typically not of the leader, they're busy enough just leading typically). I in turn try to help out where I can. I am intrigued at the thought of literally taking an apprentice... though I blame a co-worker who's a Star Wars NUT that I will always think of the Darth Sidious/ Darth Vader master apprentice relationship when I reflect on that concept.

I also recommend if/when you do get to zone, if you're using a mud client, log the zone, then go over the log, take notes, and poof, you are able to start trying to lead the zone.

Toplack *apprentice Shaman* Frostbear
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Postby Corth » Tue Apr 09, 2002 2:24 pm

I think most people are available to help newbies with basic questions and give them whatever info they need to really get started. Some people go further and will give out a couple pieces of eq. This is great.. and honestly, for a true newbie, its more than sufficient to just get them on their way by showing them where to do exp.

I think the true knowledge gap exists at higher levels. Those newbies that have managed to exp themselves to a high enough level to do zones, but they don't really know what their responsibility in the group are.

At this point, answers aren't as helpful as is experience. They need to do as many zones as possible, take their lumps, make their mistakes, and learn. In this regard, its the zone leaders that have the power to give these people the experience they need... or not to.

I lead zones for the so-called l33t guild DSR. To be perfectly honest, I have a much easier time leading then just about anyone. My guildmates dont really need leading: they all know what to do in any given situation. If anything, my role is more about keeping them focused then it is about telling them what to do. Its about moving quick enough so they don't get bored and start slacking off.

As the leader of this crew, I have a unique perspective about what makes our group tick. Its a combination of individual motivations, and the group dynamic as a whole, and Im in the best position to understand it. My leadership style is geared towards maximizing the enjoyment for a group of people that have essentially 'won' the game. For them, its not about completing the zone, its about completing the zone well. My conclusion is that the group would not be able to handle too much on-the-job training of less experienced people. Thus, I dont group many of these people. This might be a shame, but its the truth as I see it. I dont see it as bad for the mud that the real high end players enjoy being here. Its not about excluding people from having fun, its about having fun ourselves.

This is why people like Mikar, Moritheil, and Gormal are vastly underappreciated. They get made fun of for leading spanks, but nobody gives them enough credit for essentially training the next generation of high end sojourn mudders. Perhaps, one thing we can all do is give these people credit for taking on the challenge of leading less experienced people instead of making fun of them. Instead of joking about their spanks, realize that if they were leading DSR or Imphras, everyone would be saying how great a leader they are.

I know theres an element of 'do as i say, not as i do' here. But nonetheless, despite the fact that I do not lead inexperienced people very often, I very much support those that take on the challenge. I apologize if I myself am not doing enough in this regard, but I have my own role on this mud.

Corth

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 04-09-2002).]
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Postby Salen » Tue Apr 09, 2002 2:51 pm

Bah. Guilds suck and you all know it. In the words of a buddy of mine.
Salen The Vagbond Saint -GDI-
(God Damn Independent)
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Postby rachaz » Tue Apr 09, 2002 3:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gort:
<B>Miax,

I also recommend if/when you do get to zone, if you're using a mud client, log the zone, then go over the log, take notes, and poof, you are able to start trying to lead the zone.

Toplack *apprentice Shaman* Frostbear</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Two points I would like to make on this subject. Firstly, the above statement couldn't be more true. A log whether it is a well led zone or poorly led zone is amazing. I usually log every zone I do (even ones I have logs of so that I can work on improvement). I take my time out usually when nothing else is going on in the game and slowly read through the log (some are around 600 pages). This is an invaluable tool for newer and even experienced players.

Your arguement might be that if the newer players are never brought to a zone, then they can not log it. This brings me to my second point. These zone groups that take newer people DO happen. I lead them in the late afternoons usually or real late at night when I am not involved in my prime mudding. I usually ask people, "What is on your agendas for today?" Then choose a zone that people need. However, as Todrael said before, I can not do this all the time. And when I can do it if people do not log the trip, they get nothing other than a crappy item from the trip.

To sum things up, newer players can zone, but not as much as core players. To zone well takes a little bit of homework both while mudding (exp) and not (reading logs). Spanks will happen when the newer players zone. But they really need to learn from these mistakes by asking questions not sulking after the fact.

Knowledge is much more valuable than equipment. Knowing how to do something is like getting an infinite amount of that item :P

Rachaz

[This message has been edited by rachaz (edited 04-09-2002).]
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Postby Malacar » Tue Apr 09, 2002 8:27 pm

Nice post Touk. Thumbs up.
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Postby Dlur » Tue Apr 09, 2002 10:55 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:

<B>-SNIP-

I lead zones for the so-called l33t guild DSR. To be perfectly honest, I have a much easier time leading then just about anyone. My guildmates dont really need leading: they all know what to do in any given situation. If anything, my role is more about keeping them focused then it is about telling them what to do. Its about moving quick enough so they don't get bored and start slacking off.

-END SNIP-

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



I think that perhaps Corth hit on something here. I remember from back in my time past that the people that the MUD in general considered overall to be great leaders, probably weren't all that great of leaders at all. Take for example Kurz/Lothair. Just like Corth's main job now is to keep a high level of motivation up amongst a group of high level players in order to maintain a constant degree of excitement, I surmise from my experiences in following Kurz day in and day out that his job was just the same. Sure folks such as Kurz, Corth, Modu, Jerthal, Tavon, Toddrick, Dornax, Calib, ect. have a duty to come up with new strategies for accomplishing a goal with their group, but it's my theory that these great leaders really don't lead much at all, mostly because all of their followers are the same day in, day out and also because their followers are all already exceptional players who know what to do regardless of who the leader is.



I'd say the true leaders are the folks that already don't take the same crew with them every day. Take for example Mikar, Slaag, Moritheil, Mplor, Dizahk, ect. to name a few from both current and distant times. These people never seemed to stick to the same group members each run on a zone. Sure there may have been a handful of full time groupies, but for the most part it was new folks every time. Each time these folks accomplished a zone they had to explain what to do every step of the way. Often times the motivational aspect involves just trying to keep everyone motivated enough to want to finish at times. Constant hardship befalls leaders who take new people all the time, and with the constant explanations, re-explanations, the re-re-explanations on how to do every single step of every single zone, it amazes me that some of these people still MUD.



I myself am not a natural born leader, and although I know more than a handful of zones I'm not comfortable being responsible for the wellbeing and/or hapiness of others. Given the right tools(people) I will lead, but I can't say I'm able to do it well, and to be honest it's just not a fun experience for me. I like being the guy that stands back, does his job in the group, knows what to do if he's last man standing, and fires off utterly tasteless jokes with amazing frequency.



In turn I think everyone has their niche in the MUD system. Some people are natural born leaders. These people not only can handle leading groups of people they know, but also can motivate complete strangers. Some people are brilliant strategists with a knack for making a group 'chopchop'. Others are good followers, always knowing just what to do in order to make the leader's job easier. Some people are RPers, always there to make the game have a little more depth. Some folks are natural born killers, who just want to smite stuff. Some folks are helpers, and go out of there way to help anyone, anyway they can. Some folks are just starting out, and will have stumbled upon a whole knew world, waiting for THEM to discover it. And others are just starting out waiting for a world to discover them.

In the end I think the new person wanting to discover the world is the one that will end up being the next leader, not the ones that are waiting for the world to discover them. In the end I think the best advice I can give to new folks is:
1) Make the world your own. Make it happen for yourself, as nobody is probably going to make stuff happen for you.
2) Ask questions. Try to do this in a friendly, not overly annoying manner.
3) Explore. Try new stuff, seek out new places. If you die, oh well, just ask someone for help and chances are you'll get it. Failure is not an end, it's just a means to learn from.


Ghimok - Sage of The Company
(PS not downplaying the abilities of any leaders as I respect anyone that leads. Period.)

[This message has been edited by Dlur (edited 04-09-2002).]
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Postby Wargo » Wed Apr 10, 2002 12:16 am

I think the people here can be classified into the following categories:

Quiters: These people exists in every levels and in every forms. They just don't have the right mentality for the durability.

Newbies: These people are interested with what the game has to offer but are just clueless for their level.

Mid levels: These people have already passed the initial bump and is determined to make it happen.

High levels: These people starts zoning and some have started leading but has yet ways to go.

Elite (for lack of a better word): These people has "won" the game and is only online for the enjoyment.

Eventually, the elites gets replaced by high levelers and the high levelers replaced by mid levelers and so on. They are there and have always been. Therefore, there is no need to worry where the next generation leaders are going to come from.

Yssilk
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Postby Jurdex » Wed Apr 10, 2002 12:34 am

Wow.

How soon people forget. Image

Nothing was ever given to me on this mud.

(Except for maybe the God quests I participated in. Even now I strive to live up to the great honor I received.)

I have worked very hard to make my mark on this mud. I did this by leading every zone with as much precision and diligence as possible. This wipe not many of the "elite" players followed me. They were all with Folur, not that I can blame them. They were always a zone or two ahead of us, and thus they had the pick of the best players at the time.

I always preached that it was not a race, but a marathon. A few people were by my side right after the wipe (Verarb, Yayaril and later on Touk and Jhorr) kicking ass, but we had to work harder to bring the level of play up to the very high standard that we wanted.

We had some extremely good players, but we also had a lot of newer players who had never been to some of the real difficult zones. However, some of these players who did not zone on a regular basis had a tremendous amount of knowledge of the mud that some of us who zoned did not have. It was an awesome blend of knowledge and experience that has now formed one of the best guilds this mud has ever seen, in my humble opinion.

However, I worked my tail off at it. I began my leading on Toril. I started with vault, and moved to jot. I had access to Trogar's crew of players, but surprisingly enough, most of them never followed me. So I did brass and troll king and then did TF until I was considered an honorary braxat with a vastly different group every single time. Image

Sojourn3 was no different. When I started leading again I had no real crew. Just a few players I knew, but most of them inexperienced. Throughout the year the mud has been up many people have flowed into and out of the ranks of my guild and the groups I lead. I don't lead exclusively, I group all sorts of different people.

I repeat how to do every fight every zone because that is how I think a good leader does it. ( There is always that one person who is new and might not have been here with you. )

Anyone who wants to lead will have trouble at first and start with the newer players, and occasionally get spanked. However, the players he leads will become better through the experiences they share together. Other players will fade out and new ones in. They will move from the standard zones to the more difficult ones and finally to the elite zones on the mud. And lo and behold that leader now has a crew of followers who are skilled and experienced and they are all considered elite.

It is more difficult to build a crew than it is to inherit one.

Some of the activities my guild has sponsored have had surprising success and others have failed miserably, but we're still trying. I think we're friendly and I answer questions on zones all the time. I've walked 3-4 people through a zone this wipe explaining how to do it and why certain strategies work. I think its truly up to the players to make their opportunity.

Dornax
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Postby Treladian » Wed Apr 10, 2002 12:58 am

Like Touk has said, we can't help you if we don't know you need help and ask the right questions. This applies to all levels of the game. I personally have mentored two people on the mud, but both have since decided to move onto muds with less of a learning curve/time commitment or decided that they no longer have the time for mudding that they used to. I suspect other people have had similar experiences. As a result, I will not just randomly pick up some newbie that looks like they MIGHT need help, I need to have some sign of commitment first. I no longer have the same amount of time I can spare that I used to and I know this is true of many others as well. This is not to say that myself and others will not answer questions on how to effectively play a class, act in or lead a zone, etc. if we're not busy, but we can't go around looking for people to answer these questions for. And when some of us are asked questions, it's often not of the type that they probably should be asking. I've found myself fielding questions such as "What better bows are there?," "What's a good offhand weapon for my level?," "Is item x better than item y?," or, my personal least favorite, "Where can I go to solo at my level?" Not "What conditions should I look for or try to create in order to most safely use ranged weapons?," "How can I identify that a weapon will make a good offhand weapon?," "How can I find out whether one item is better than another?," "What attributes should I look for in my equipment?" and in one case repeated attempts to find out where to solo despite repeatedly telling the player that the ranger class is not designed to solo and he needs to look for groups. I don't mind fielding questions while I'm in a zone or sometimes in the middle of a fight, but that also means I can't try to extract a question that isn't being asked directly while I'm eating a triple cloud, trying to be ready to rescue if the tank reaches nasty/pretty hurt, and sniping at goats in Jot to taunt Gormal. If someone does ask questions that have more to do with learning how to play a class than more transient information such as item stats or exp spots, I any many people will be glad to go over a lot of information. We might not be able to do it in person, but we will do it. But we still need to know that it needs to be done.

------------------
"Maybe I should stop and ask for directions . . ."
Guest

Postby Guest » Wed Apr 10, 2002 2:33 am

My real inentions in doing this were to, as I said on the mud, "Stir everyone up and see what good ideas fall out".

After reading through all of your replies, talking to many people on the mud about it, and through my own experiences, I rate the mud's population with a B+ score on how they treat newbies and others. Image Yes there is elitism, there Should be, and yes not everyone is nice. But taken as a whole, the high level elite players are indeed very good to the mud's people. In additoin to all of the advice given, help in spanks, occasional zone trips, even apprenticeships, what everyone forgot to mention were the Equipment handouts. High level players hand out mid level or even mid-high level equipment all the time, and it keeps the lower level players pumped up. Ive seen high level evils freely handing out great weapons to newbie evils, so they can slay better and survive. Ive had goods give me flagons, weapons, armors, just about everything.

All in all, I rate our people very highly, and I applaud you all for doing a great job over-all on helping the newcomers. I encourage you to do more, to mentor more, and even make it practice to take 1 newbie around in zones, having them log it, just so they can read the log and learn. Remember, the more you help the young ones, the more of them will grow up to be great mudders and Sojourners, and that benefits us all.

Miax
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Postby old depok » Wed Apr 10, 2002 1:20 pm

I have a suggestion to those leaders who have a crew of people and don't have the time to explain all of the actions needed for a particular zone if they take a less experienced person with them. Ask a player from your crew to be a mentor for that person in the zone.

I know that I have benefitted from this type of scenario greatly. It helps if the mentor is the same class but often it only has to be caster top caster, tank to tank, hitter to hitter.

Also, for those people who are not leading and in a group that is not full. If you know someone who is less experienced ask if they can come along and tell the leader ahead of time that you will be responsible for them if you know the zone.

All in all I have found the people on this mud to be very helpful and willing to teach/mentor. It doesn't happen with everyone but it does happen a lot.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Apr 10, 2002 2:25 pm

I usually just gsay "I've never been to this zone before and will appreciate any tells on things I should know."

Of course, most of the tells I get back are along the lines of "Don't bid Dornax's left testicle, it's mine this time."
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Postby old depok » Wed Apr 10, 2002 2:54 pm

Ashiwi-

That works until someone says mid fight "oh no areas!" LOL

Luckily I usually take my area spell lead from more experienced players. Usually.
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Postby moritheil » Fri Apr 12, 2002 5:43 pm

wow, Tey, I knew you as brellan and never realized it!

I have nothing but thanks and praise for Touk, Gormal, Treladian, Lilithelle and other highlevels. I don't know what this stuff is about "not helping train enough newbies".

One thing that I HAVE noticed, n00bs only seem to come in the types that never speak up, an the types that demand all... I think this is the main problem. You need to post up something in the starter file telling them to speak up, but not be discouraged if the highlevel happens to be afk or whatnot. And something needs to be done about those occaisonal n00bs that run around with mad, sick, twinky eq (that they have no idea where it comes from) and treat other people like trash. Abusive groupmates are !cool. I don't know what could be done, but if there is some way to instill appreciation for other people's time and effort, it would be good. I've run into newbies that always ask for eq... well, what happened to the rings I gave you last week? and the sword the week before? If you ignore your fumbles, don't bother CRing, and don't learn to rent, it's very hard for me to justify continually helping you out. It's one thing if you just don't fast type enough - it's another if you just blatantly don't give a damn because you know you can beg your way into more eq.

Ashiwi and depok, I have found that sending a tell to someone in advance helps things a ton. I learned this method from gythi and wuva, both of whom send tells like "what druids do in brass, man?" before we enter a zone, just to make things absolutely clear. Noone will think you're dumb for simply wanting to make sure. In fact, this has been a literal lifesaver.

------------------
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Postby old depok » Mon Apr 15, 2002 6:52 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B>wow, Tey, I knew you as brellan and never realized it!

I have nothing but thanks and praise for Touk, Gormal, Treladian, Lilithelle and other highlevels. I don't know what this stuff is about "not helping train enough newbies".

One thing that I HAVE noticed, n00bs only seem to come in the types that never speak up, an the types that demand all... I think this is the main problem. You need to post up something in the starter file telling them to speak up, but not be discouraged if the highlevel happens to be afk or whatnot. And something needs to be done about those occaisonal n00bs that run around with mad, sick, twinky eq (that they have no idea where it comes from) and treat other people like trash. Abusive groupmates are !cool. I don't know what could be done, but if there is some way to instill appreciation for other people's time and effort, it would be good. I've run into newbies that always ask for eq... well, what happened to the rings I gave you last week? and the sword the week before? If you ignore your fumbles, don't bother CRing, and don't learn to rent, it's very hard for me to justify continually helping you out. It's one thing if you just don't fast type enough - it's another if you just blatantly don't give a damn because you know you can beg your way into more eq.

Ashiwi and depok, I have found that sending a tell to someone in advance helps things a ton. I learned this method from gythi and wuva, both of whom send tells like "what druids do in brass, man?" before we enter a zone, just to make things absolutely clear. Noone will think you're dumb for simply wanting to make sure. In fact, this has been a literal lifesaver.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Moritheil. Good suggestion. I do like having someone I feel I can ask stupid questions of in the group as well (areas ok in this next fight? Do these next mobs need to be silenced?). Cuts down on dumb gsays or spamming of leader who is busy enough.

Shrug of course as you learn the zones it gets easier as you then know you need PFC for Malice before you get the "ok pfc everyone on your vit list please" (doh I only have one mem'd hehe).

Shrug part of the learning process too.

Chuckle maybe I should have played a tank. The commands they get are "ok meat shields W. Spam rescue Depok when he areas the room" **GRIN**

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