(a piece of Thread about removing level loss)

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
muma
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(a piece of Thread about removing level loss)

Postby muma » Tue Apr 23, 2002 4:23 pm

Ok, here is a new topic about removing level loss (as Malacar asked, and so i don't want to cause trouble so i did it Image ). i personally think losing a level is ridiculous. Right so Rausrh says "So when (read if) I hit level 50 my fear of dieing would be almost zero. What would I have to loose?"

well, that is a good point, but don't u think there is more to the mud than doing exp? of course there is. alright, i'll tell you where i got this idea in my head. i've been playing Dark age of camelot (DAoC) and there you can't lose a level. at first i was like "NO WAY!" but then i found it to be true. however ress only gives back 50% exp. The leveling is just as slow, if not slower, power leveling isn't the same (eg. you don't level fast by powerleveling, wanna level fast got to group with ppl your level) and equipment is level based.

i'm sure all these things make the whole level loss thing different. Look i'm a big baby and i got spoiled with not losing a level so i think it would be cool to see it done here as well.

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Leah A. W.
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Tue Apr 23, 2002 4:25 pm

*bow*

Thanks Muma. Image

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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Tue Apr 23, 2002 5:55 pm

As posted earlier, this will make morigroups more popular... so, think carefully before arguing it ;P

MassDeath: the wave of the future?
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Postby Gort » Tue Apr 23, 2002 6:40 pm

The only time I've been at all bummed about it is at next circle levels, and even then... you get a ress, you only lose 4%. IMHO, not a big deal. I even failed my last ress, and am still not heartbroken about it.

If you just did gheal and scry/spirit walk, or ress, or any of the level 46 quest spells right at 46, lost it and had to redo them, I can understand a bit of consternation (especially w/ ress), but still, may make you think 2x before waltzing into the Manscorpion squad solo.

IMHO

Toplack * no longer fears death * Frostbear

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Karikhan
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Postby Karikhan » Tue Apr 23, 2002 7:09 pm

lost 41 after doing gheal and scry/s-walk ...

gained the level back with ress and still had the spells ..

this isnt meant as a flame but .. its gonna sound like one .. i just perosnally disagree

this isnt any other mud .. this os soj3 .... losing levels and doing xp is all part of the *fun* ...



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Ambar -= Squishin de Squid =-
Cardolan
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Postby Cardolan » Tue Apr 23, 2002 7:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by muma:
i personally think losing a level is ridiculous. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I respectfully but totally disagree.

There is more to the mud than doing exp, but there's gotta be more risk to dying a bunch of times (i.e., group gets spanked deep within a tough place to CR from and you die several times over) than just losing exp down to the beginning of your current level.

Not losing levels removes one of the more significant challenges of playing, IMHO.

-Cardy
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Apr 23, 2002 8:03 pm

I'm with Cardy on this one. Death is supposed to be a "Bad Thing." As it is, how bad it it really? That depends on where you die. Okay, if you do something dumb and die to an exp mob on ship, then you snag a well, drag the corpse, get a ress, have to make up the small percentage back that you lost (for me it's 6% lost every death). For hitters and tanks that small percentage really isn't that much, for casters it's a bit more, but in the long run, it's really not a whole lot to have to sweat at all.

I don't like losing skills, but if I put in the work I'll regain them. It's such a small skill loss, too.

Death should have significant drawbacks. Death is something none of us should really want to go through. I've lost 50 so many times, and died at least twice that many times since getting it. I don't know what the answers for it are, but it dying shouldn't be something so easily shrugged off. I don't think people should be punished for dying... I think there should be real reason they would make every effort to NOT die in the first place.
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Postby Rausrh » Tue Apr 23, 2002 8:11 pm

Muma,
I would guess that one third of the people who play on a regular basis have at least one character at level 50.(I swear one day I will have one.) If the possibility of level loss by death was removed from the game, what fear would these players have? What risk would there be for them to balance the reward?

I know there is more to the mud than doing exp. The number one thing people strive for in the game is equipment. People gain exp to gain levels to get better equipment. The game is structured around the idea that equipment is the reward while losing exp(level) is the risk. If there was no possibility of loosing a level due to death, anyone who is level 50 has the same reward as everyone else, but has little or no risk.

"Yeah we did scorps with a 3 man group, only took us 68 deaths, no biggie, we still got the mask"

RP is another reason to mud, but then why would you worry about levels or skills?



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Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Tue Apr 23, 2002 8:12 pm

I would like to point out that rogues suffer distinctly less on skill loss.

Mages are forced to use all their skills when they die and are forced to come back right away. Meditate, spellcasts, quickchant.

Rogues will only lose offense, maybe dual, maybe double attack, maybe 1h piercing. Your other skills, like sneak, hide, picklocks, awareness, track, etc... They don't get lost unless you lose them. So there is a significant difference. And having now played a rogue for many levels, I would like to say that the skills they are most likely to lose, their offensive skills, notch extremely fast, and are a null issue to replace.

You brought it up, so I wanted to rebut. Image

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muma
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Postby muma » Tue Apr 23, 2002 9:57 pm

Hrm, well now that i think about it a little more, because of your posts. i guess i just grew accustomed to the other game and altho similar to sojourn3, it has quite a few differences.....i don't want to get into details because i would just end up rambling heh.

thanks

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Leah A. W.
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Postby belleshel » Tue Apr 23, 2002 10:32 pm

I totally disagree, this mud is already far easier than it ever was in the past, if you know what your doing leveling is almost a joke Image

Malacar I've lost max notches a few times (and some hitter notches took 2 months to come back all the way), it sucks, but its totally a mental thing (omg Im not totally maxxed!), do you really think 1 or 2 notches make that big a difference? Can you tell between an enchanter with 90 qc, vs. one with 88 qc?? It's really not that big a deal, it's just the mental thing *imo*
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Apr 24, 2002 2:09 am

easier for whom?

for the college kid with 12 hours to spend today if he dies and it's a hard cr?

for the unemployed?

for the guy leaching off his parents?

what about us normal folks who want to keep playing this game?

what about the new folks who are too afraid to explore the mud because of the fear of losing EVERY GOD DAMNED THING they've earned to that point if they die and there's not anyone on who can help with a cr?

what about all the fucking corpses that piled up and were recently nuked? you think they were piled up for fun? you think thos folks didnt want ress? do you even dare to think that there were 70 failed resses in dk alone?

you are all afraid of change, that is fact. DAoC is the best system for getting folks to play and explore and for the casual gamer. if it had more content it would have a larger player base.

just because you dont lose xp dont mean your geared corpse wont still be sitting at 2nd gatehouse after you die, R.

the fact that i can not replace what i have if i lose it all keeps me from exploring or agreeing to go and do shit that have a higher chance of my death than normal. i'll never go back to bloody bayou and i'll not fight another dragon, it's not worth it to me losing hours of xp.

just got an email from folks in my guild asking where everyone is. shrug, maybe they tired of putting in endless hours of xp only to have it all taken away, and then some, in a few minutes.

i personally have lost 4 corpses and enough experience to have gone from 46.5 to 48.2 in the last three weeks alone. what a waste of time.
Guest

Postby Guest » Wed Apr 24, 2002 3:13 am

I would hate to live in a world with no risk. Sojourn without risk of level loss and equipment loss would become boring incredibly fast. It's the fear of battle, the anticipation of victory or defeat, the chance at winning And loosing something valuable that has driven humankind from our very first days.

Sojourn is not a risk-adverse game. In fact, its much Less risky this time around than in the past, which isn't a bad thing, but nor could we ever remove risk entirely. Many mortals wont like it, may will, it's a reality that we must live with - that isn't likely to go away..

Or as the Klingons say, Die Well. Image

Miax
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Postby Valke » Wed Apr 24, 2002 4:09 am

Death
Death
Died
Died
Die
Die
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Apr 24, 2002 5:26 am

that makes sense miax, but there has to be moderation.

just take bloody bayou for instance. a nasty ass zone that repops on you.

yes it can be done. yes several people always die. but does it HAVE to repop like that?

the mud probably seems easier this time around because this is the most caster heavy version ever, and casters hold more power today than warriors or monks did in the past. the administration sees this, and makes the game uber hard in some ways to compensate. the elite still waltz on the improvements, while the new guys or folks not quite as good as the rest are left holding their head in their hands, stunned at their corpse having rotted or their bag being burned with all the crap they've just spent the last 11 months of their life getting and saying 'what the fuck....'

there has to be a happy medium. exp is tedius and boring, but necessary. there are few places to xp at the higher levels, everyone knows where they are and the solo game is all but gone. perhaps it seems easier because everything is done with groups? who knows.

all i know is that i've lost the equivalent of nearly 60 hours of playtime worth of experience in three weeks. that's 60 hours i could of used doing weddings. i get paid nearly $120 an hour doing a wedding, not to mention the over 85% profit in reprint orders. that's a lot of money lost when you think about it, and i try very hard to NOT think about it.


there are few ressers, so corpses stack up. is this because folks dont like playing clerics? or because folks who were clerics before when all we had were clerics/sorcs/conjies/shaman and druids now playing either cleric/ench/ele/illus/inv/shaman to do something different? or is it because of how insanely hard the ress quest is? who knows.

it's also damned common to die and have not a single char on the who list on the evil side who can fuckin pres. i've lost a total of 11 corpses in since the mud opened because there was no one on to press, and i couldnt wait how ever many hours it would take for one of those classes to log on, even a freakin level 1 necro for shits sake.


anyway, there should always be risk, but risk balanced vs. reward. i wont do a 10 hour wedding with an unorganized bride, because of the sheer amount of stress and what will inevitably reduce the number of stellar or even usable photographs is not worth it. risk vs. reward. elusive, but possible

Jeff
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Postby fildur » Wed Apr 24, 2002 10:16 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Teyaha:
<B>
all i know is that i've lost the equivalent of nearly 60 hours of playtime worth of experience in three weeks. that's 60 hours i could of used doing weddings. i get paid nearly $120 an hour doing a wedding, not to mention the over 85% profit in reprint orders. that's a lot of money lost when you think about it, and i try very hard to NOT think about it.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats just a silly comparation, just dont make sense at all (unless yer mudding from work and then the cash is lost anyways...), that would be like sayin "well, i spent like $1000 on my wife last month, ye know, i washome every evenig..."
/fil
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Postby Lalsed » Wed Apr 24, 2002 10:30 am

If I didn't lose a level when dying at 50 I would explore the whole entire mud, including evil hometowns because it wouldn't matter at all. It would give me something to do when bored. I could learn a heck of alot of stuff without any risk because I could just die twenty billion times- it's a bad idea.

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Lalsed the Druid of Destruction...?

[This message has been edited by Lalsed (edited 04-24-2002).]
rylan
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Postby rylan » Wed Apr 24, 2002 12:22 pm

exactly lalsed. I'd remove my hard to replace eq, put on some low level stuff and go explore some nasty ass zones or walk in evil hometowns and stuff. no level loss means I wouldn't care how much I died.
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Postby kiryan » Wed Apr 24, 2002 1:29 pm

we don't need to change anything. For those of you that think having a 99 in meditate or qc is absolutely necessary, if your not at least 50.50% your just whining. If its that big of a problem you can put the work in and get your corpses ressed regularly.

however, it would be very nice if you didnt lose skills (possibly including spells) with level loss.
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Apr 24, 2002 1:38 pm

At 8 hours of sleep per day, and 8 dollars an hours wages working at a fast food restaurant, that means I'm losing 64 dollars a day from sleeping! That's about 23,000 dollars I miss out on a year! I could have had half a million dollars if it wasn't for that sleep thing!!

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-Yayaril
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Apr 24, 2002 1:55 pm

Which overpriced fast food restaurant pays you $8.00/hour?
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Postby vynigumba » Wed Apr 24, 2002 1:57 pm

Even if it will never happen, I would say that I will like it.

My point is that since Sojourn is an equip based Mud, why death should affect time?

To die is just a nuisance anyway if you have your cleric ready to ress you. If you are low level or not part of the elite-hard core players. Bad luck, every death is worth a fair amount of boring hours of killing the same mob over and over.

Frankly speaking, I see this system all at the advantage of high level experienced players and at the disadvantage of low level/ casual players/ small groups /solo players.

An option would be to make you choice the effect of your death. for example you can (1)lose exp as now, or (2) pay a fine not to lose exp (for example 50p for each level you are.. if you are lvl 50.. 2500p) That finally would get rid of some plat from the game, or (3) you can lose an equivalent value in equip.

I just dont like to spend hours killing the same mob over and over.. and be afraid to be killed by any mob I dont know.
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Postby Gort » Wed Apr 24, 2002 2:36 pm

Agree Miax


I am an inconsistent mudder. I only tend to mud when my gf is on business trips (about 70% of the time) but I work and teach class too, so its not all the time she's gone. I consider myself a casual mudder who would often like to be more hardcore if time permitted. I die wholesale, ask those I've grouped with, I'm always the first to die, just think of me as a redshirt. I don't mind dying as long as its not due to my own stupidity. Thankfully those deaths are now few and far between. (Lesson's learned)

Now, I don't play an evil much, but really, if you didn't lose exp to death, as Lalsed said, there would be no consequences, and all kinds of stuff would be twinked. At early levels exp is easy to get back, I'm currently 46 and holding (the death thing)but am good w/ the exp I have to recover, as w/ a group (3 man smoke, 4 man ship, 4 man tower etc) its easy enough to get back.

The real reason I mud is to have fun w/ friends, sure I'd love to get 50 someday, and I'm sure I will, but I'm not gonna get all bent because I lost 4% (post ress) to a death, or 20% (failed ress).

Just think, death here is much preferable to death irl, and we do all kinds of stupid crap irl that doesn't kill us w/o even thinking of the consequences.

Remember! It's just a GAME! A really cool game, but still...


Toplack Frostbear

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Jenera
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Postby Jenera » Wed Apr 24, 2002 3:52 pm

I have been playing since Crimson Sigil and Eye Aeternum days and I still can't get to Splitshield without getting lost Image
I also have a lvl 23 druid and a lvl 8 invoker that wear lvl 30-40 equipment because of Gormal buying me for a hefty amount at the players auction and Ashiwi insisting she give me 3k for organizing the whole thing with help of Zanalista and Muma. 90% of the time, I don't even leave WD because exping is so tedious and boring. I'm a twink. In Sojourn 2, I went to all the zones, joined a guild, had the spanky eq, and died at least 6 times a day as a lot of clerics know, and still to this day, I say the most fun I have had was sitting at 3w or the fountain, watching people like Touk, Yayaril, and Nilan roleplay or of late, laughing hysterically while Baratos(Yayaril) chases Mrog around Waterdeep, monkeypiling on him. Removing level loss, imo, would only widen the gap between experienced players and mediocre players like me who only play for the social or rp aspect. I ramble like always Image
Still, though high level players still have the zones and the best equipment to look forward to..how much fun would you really have after all that is done and you can no longer aspire to new heights? I personally don't understand how anyone can play this game and not expect or even get mad when they die/lose a level/lose experience. But then, I have never been a power player so there is probably something here that I'll never know unless someone explains from their point of view...

*confoozled*

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Jennie
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Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Wed Apr 24, 2002 3:58 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
<B>we don't need to change anything. For those of you that think having a 99 in meditate or qc is absolutely necessary, if your not at least 50.50% your just whining. If its that big of a problem you can put the work in and get your corpses ressed regularly.

however, it would be very nice if you didnt lose skills (possibly including spells) with level loss. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll take this personally.

You have absolutely no room to talk about whining, Kiryan, and it was unneccessary to phrase it like this.

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Malacar - omg ymir!
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Postby Galkar » Wed Apr 24, 2002 4:16 pm

Compromise to help the new people out? I don't see much in the way of helping out the high levels because of exploring issues, etc. But someone mentioned new people, so, why don't we say from level 20 or so down, you don't loose level, but you automatically drop to the beginning of that level. After 20 or so, maybe a bit higher, then you begin loosing levels. Chars that are level 20 really can't explore the more intense zones without getting wasted almost immediately, yet it doesn't deter newer players from exploring all of the lower to mid level zones. They will be able to see and learn many different aspects of the mud through this, and possibly get hooked.

I agree with risk vs. reward being balanced, and I agree that taking out level loss for 50's is not a great idea for the mud. Work the middle, and it sounds pretty good.

Just a thought!

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Postby Rausrh » Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:59 pm

Malacar,
So because you felt Kiryan called you a whiner, you called Kiryan a whiner? I hope you don't take this personally, but that was unneccessary.

What are we in 3rd grade?



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Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Wed Apr 24, 2002 9:07 pm

I could have gone off and flame him. I didn't.

If you'd like me to, I can completely regress to 3rd grade and go off like a little baby like I've done in the past(I try not to do this anymore, as I am working on my own issues, and am a lot better than I used to be). I feel I handled that maturely. If you don't, maybe you should look at some of your own issues. I made a simple comment, that wasn't even sniping, it was statement of fact. I was content to leave it at that.

If you would like to carry on that scope of the thread, I'd be glad to do it privately though. Maybe we can both release some aggression and act like complete retards. As it is, I don't feel like saying more on that topic. I said my piece.

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Postby Rausrh » Wed Apr 24, 2002 9:30 pm

Malacar,
I'm glad that you're trying. If you feel that your post was mature, not sniping and a statment of fact, well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Oh and about my 'issues'...
I was young, I needed the money.

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Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Wed Apr 24, 2002 9:39 pm

muahahaha

Yep! I got pics... Anyone want some? reeeeeal cheap! Image

And I suppose I should modify my last post... maturely = more maturely than I used to.

Agree to disagree indeed! I like that.

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Malacar - omg ymir!
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Apr 24, 2002 9:53 pm

my point in bringing up the money thing is really simple.

i spent 60 hours of my time working on something, only to have it taken completely from me.

i dunno about the rest of you, but when something is taken from me without my permission i fight it.

just as if i just did a three day mendhi and then the father refusing to pay because of the way i was dressed (tux, instead of traditonal indian garb).

i will fight it. however my only recourse in this game, after having this happen so often, is to just say to myself 'fukit, it's just not worth the extra time'.
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Postby fildur » Thu Apr 25, 2002 10:46 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Teyaha:
<B>
i spent 60 hours of my time working on something, only to have it taken completely from me.

i dunno about the rest of you, but when something is taken from me without my permission i fight it.
*snip*
i will fight it. however my only recourse in this game, after having this happen so often, is to just say to myself 'fukit, it's just not worth the extra time'.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

chill, its just a game, if ye cant take it for recreation and fun, then just rethink...

heck, loose exp->need more time on the mud->more fun->more recreation->you will be a better persom RL->that spread till yer neighbours-> world peace. loose exp is the thing to do Image

/fil

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