Haste the Ranger!

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
celara
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Haste the Ranger!

Postby celara » Mon Jun 24, 2002 11:55 am

I may not often be taken seriously, but I would like some serious consideration given to this. I feel its a valid "argument" for lack of a better word.

There is a fact, that if you are a ranger, it is very difficult to get reliable hastes in a group. It is also a fact that you are true suckage without hastes, in fact, you might as well notch that 2h slashing because your getting 2 attacks a good portion of the time anyway. A warrior with a shield is getting 2, and if hes two-handing just forget about beating him in dammage-dealing without haste. Archery is not longer anything but a (perhaps broken?) skill that is again, only really used for luring.

There is a fact, that enchanters are probably the most highly-sought class on the mud as far as grouping/zoning goes. It is extreemly rare for a group to ever say, "naw, we dont need an(other) enchanter". There was a time, when taking haste off all the items might have been needed to make enchanters more usefull, but the mud is no longer young and that day has passed. Globes/dragonscales alone will get them all the groups they ever need. Dont get me wrong, I understand the change was made for a reason, but enchanters are so busy during spellups, and stoning/dscaling during fights that getting hasted on spelldown is very hard, and in fact, dangerous and silly 90% of the time. If you do get a haste during spellup, it is fading by the time the fight starts because of the super-short duration.

In short, I have presenteds that: Rangers are very nearly useless as a hitting class without haste. Spell-exclusive haste is no longer nessesary for player class usefullness.

My recomendations are several, and would be the following:

Put haste on a (ranger specific?) item. This solves the need for rangers needing haste without giving it to the whole mud.

Give rangers a "triple attack" or other kind of skill to up the hits possible without a spell or item.

Give rangers back the haste spell, or make it self-only. Or, add haste to natures blessing so that it is self-only.

Hitters were dying wholesale to areas, so rogues got evasion and rangers got natures blessing. I see this as something of a parallel to this issue.

I would like to know what the "guys upstairs" think of this. Is this a possiblity? Do you beleive I have a valid point?

I know that this will probably be followed by a bunch of "yeah upgrade rangers again, whatever" posts, but I feel this is nessesary for the class to be as effective as it is intended to be. Haste is not a spell priority for groups, plain and simple, and while that may be "the groups loss", it is also the loss of the person playing the class.

Thank you for your consideration,
Celara

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Aim: damageXcase

[This message has been edited by celara (edited 06-24-2002).]
Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Mon Jun 24, 2002 12:18 pm

Rangers are not useless without haste. Without haste, they are the class that do the MOST damage in melee of any. (Rogues only have 2 attacks without haste, where rangers get 3).

Besides, there are haste-self equipment in the game, and most decent hitters have one.



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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
celara
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Postby celara » Mon Jun 24, 2002 12:57 pm

Thats exactly what I wasnt looking for.
Rogues also have backstab, circle, vital strike, and assasinate. Thanks.


Celara sprawls you sending.

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Aim: damageXcase

[This message has been edited by celara (edited 06-24-2002).]
Aldira
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Postby Aldira » Mon Jun 24, 2002 2:30 pm

Group your friendly neighborhood bard! It won't be too many more levels until I'll be seeing this all the time:

< 362h/362H 375p/383P 121v/121V >
< >
Your quickening chant fills your cohort with awesome determination.
Your song dramatically increases the movements of your companions!

< 362h/362H 376p/383P 121v/121V >
< >

I already have enough skill level that it hastes every time when targetted Image
Todrael
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Postby Todrael » Mon Jun 24, 2002 2:38 pm

Or you could bring a necromancer. I tend to be my group's designated haster/glober. Another solution, which I have long presented, would be to triple haste duration or so. I don't believe I even scribed the spell in my most recent book.

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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Waelos
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Postby Waelos » Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:09 pm

Celera has a point. It has always been that a warrior going 2h does the same damage as a ranger when neither is hasted. It is also true that there is approximately a 25 hp damage difference between a warrior (or AP or Paladin) hasted and a ranger hasted (Rogues too, mind you).

The math is really simple. Most 2h weapons are 8d4. Most (yeah, I know there are exceptions) dualble ranger/rogue weapons are 3d4. Lets take a 30 dam warrior and a 30 dam ranger as our examples.

Warrior - 8d4+30X2 = 124
Ranger/rogue - 3d4 +30 X3 = 126

Hasted Scenario:
Warrior - 8d4+30X3 - 186
Ranger/rogue - 3d4+30X5 - 210

25 hps difference per round isn't exactly all that much to write home about, is it? And this is assuming the ranger/rogue can get enough +hit to hit all those times. The more attacks, the more misses. I'd venture to say that warriors/rogues/rangers all actually _hit_ the exact same amount of times over a combat. Factor in the fact that the warrior is tanking and getting ripostes and you'll see an even greater disparity.

This is not quite as bad for rogues as they have mid round combat skills they can use to increase damage, etc. Circle is probably worth 2 attacks worth of damage every other round. . . backstab, assassinate, disarm, trip. . .all vialble and usefull mid round skills that add to their usefullness.

I won't consider warrior mid round damage abilities as they rarely lack the luxury to sit and headbutt or kick. And lets get real. . .kick is silly =)

I know archery is being worked on, and thats cool. No rush =)

I personally have no reason to complain. Im not writing this for me. . . Not to sound haughty but not every ranger is going to get to where I've been lucky enough to get. But every ranger should be viable and usefull to a group.

Are haste items the answer? not sure. Every single enchanter I've ever grouped with has complained about hasting people. Warriors want it, rangers want it, rogues want it, clerics want it. Bards are really great and having them around will address this issue to a degree. However, the bard can only sing one song at a time. . . and the tank is goign to want def harmony a great deal of the time I suspect. And the whole host of other great songs. Offensive harmony is but one. And again, I point out: 25 hps per round difference between warrior/anti/paladin damage output and ranger/rogue.

The haste item Jegzed is talking about is usable once per two days. It is helpfull in emergencies, but it would be irresponsible to say that this 'fixes' any problem =)

Also please note that I did not inclue procs. Doing so would be moot. Windsong isn't that super, isn't available to every ranger and does not even come CLOSE to comparing to Gythka or Twilight or Unholy Avenger in damage dealing capability. ESPECIALLY when coupled with most warrior races' high crit rate and crit procs. =)

So, with all this being said. . . I'm not 100% sure what the answer is. Maybe things will iron themselves out when archery is fixed =)

Perhaps a triple attack could be worked in. This wouldn't unbalance things. Monks got 7d5 +40 X7 regularly on Toril. .. . rangers having 3d4 X6 won't break things, especially with mob defense skills and the premium on the need for magical damage as high as it is. Also, I would suggest upping rogue 2nd attack so that they get 3 attacks per round unhasted and 5 more reliably when hasted. This addresses another problem with the mob defense skills being so high. THis allows individual characters more attacks, and helps them break down the mob's defenses and score more hits. rarely will all 5 or 6 land, but having one more attack increases the chances.

All in all, I believe this to be a sane and workable solution.

One last thought, is I think warriors might need something to make them a little more entertainig. . . perhaps a reflexive damage skill, like riposte. As it is, warriors are busy with rescues and bashing so adding an active skill would probably be moot. . . so another reflexive damage skill would add to their fun but not unblanace much. Maybe. just a thought.

Lost

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Waelos
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Postby Waelos » Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:10 pm

Yeah Tod. . .necro haste lasts about as long as a sneeze. if they aren't cast in battle, they're gone almost before the battle starts. Increasing the duration would be good, I think.

L

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Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:19 pm

Not to mention the item jegzed talks about is from a very expensive quest and not all players have access to it.
Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:31 pm

It's time to just give us the haste spell. In addition to everything Waelos demonstrated above (he and I have done the math on the BBS about 6 times now), Rangers don't get spellcraft enchantment. Our hastes would last shorter than necro hastes, which means they'd be good for exactly one thing: Hasting self at start of fight.

As we've said over and over, high level quest equipment does NOT make a class balanced. Using this mythical haste sword to balance rangers is like telling 85% of the rangers and rogues on this mud "Your class is balanced for the elite players. You will be weaker, because you are not elite."

Kia and Shev already know all the arguments. If they decide it's time, then it's time. If not, it's not.

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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
Tanji Smanji
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:34 pm

God, please just increase haste duration.
As an elementalist mine begins wearing the MOMENT I cast it. Let me give an example.


< 1096h/779H 101v/101V >
< P: std > cast 'haste' me
You start chanting...

< 1094h/1096H 101v/101V >
< P: std >
Casting: haste **

< 1094h/1096H 101v/101V >
< P: std >
Casting: haste *

< 1095h/1096H 101v/101V >
< P: std >
You complete your spell...
You feel your heart start to race REAL FAST!

< 1095h/1096H 101v/101V >
< P: std > sc
att

Score information for Runecopple

Level: 47 Race: Gnome Class: Elementalist
Hit points: 1095(1096) Moves: 101(101)
Experience Progress: 22% (0% change, 188% since mark)
Coins carried: 67 platinum 115 gold 562 silver 110 copper
Coins in bank: 7673 platinum 12366 gold 4593 silver 8554 copper
Prestige: 5463
Citizen of: Ashrumite
Outcast from: Leuthilspar
Playing time: 38 days / 1 hours/ 8 minutes
Title: Wanderer - Legacy
Status: Standing.
Detecting: Magic Life Heat
Protected from: Fire Cold Gas
Enchantments: Elemental Earth Haste

Active Spells:
--------------
haste (fading)
elemental embodiment maintain
elemental earth embodiment

Now come on, how can we hasters actually be useful to melee's when our haste only lasts like a minute and a half. And that's with master spellcast enchantment. Not to mention its a 7th circle spell for elementalists and necros, not a super quick mem and we don't get too many of 'em.

Upgrade haste!
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:08 pm

I'm wholly in favor of giving rangers a quest spell of self-haste.

If I could get away with not even memming haste, I would jump at it. I am rapidly tiring of the enchanter class because of this stuff. I am frequently called a spell-up bitch... And I hate that. Because it's true.

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Malacar - omg ymir!
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:50 pm

Just FYI, every self respecting rogue has access to 4d4 (or better) weapons, and every self respecting ranger wields at least one weapon that is around 3d6 too. I'm not going to calculate anything, nor am I picking sides or saying that the point here is valid or not, just mentioning it.


[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 06-24-2002).]
Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:10 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B>Rangers are not useless without haste. Without haste, they are the class that do the MOST damage in melee of any. (Rogues only have 2 attacks without haste, where rangers get 3).

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I get 4 attacks unhasted. now i only hit about 1/2 with +37hit but hey, who's counting...I am going to solve the problem and make an invoker...

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Kifle "It Slipped I swear!" ButteryFingers
Todrael
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Postby Todrael » Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:13 pm

Heh. Haste is there, people just don't play the classes that are best at it. Necromancers are, bar none, the best hasters in the game. It takes me maybe 25 seconds to haste 6 people. That haste will last long enough for most fights. In any zone group, I'm done with globe and haste on up to 6 hitters by the time vits are up. Wraiths and ghosts never run out of hastes, take <2 seconds to start casting haste on 3 targets, etc.

You just need more necromancers. Or maybe treat the ones you already have like they're very useful, because they are. I always wonder how you do without them, then I remember: you don't. You come to the boards and say "We need haste items." Image

I don't mean to be inflamatory with this post, but this is the way I see it. I've had at least 3 46+ necromancers on the goodie side tell me they don't get zone groups, aren't invited, aren't treated as useful, etc, and this is like the 3rd thread on the board about not having enough hasters, and goodie enchanters being overworked.

Every class is useful and fills a niche. If one of these classes is lacking, and proper incentive (respect, training, etc) are not given to foster an increase in that class' population, then yes, there will be gaps in your abilities. You have to learn to live with those.

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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
omrec
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Postby omrec » Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:22 pm

Why aren't chanters casting haste? I always make sure all my targets are hasted, esp. with time stop making it so easy to get them in during a spellup. And I even sometimes re-haste in battle, along with keeping tanks blurred and scaled. Maybe the problem is you aren't grouping with good enchanters. If your chanter isn't hasting you, ask them to. If they refuse, get a different chanter. All my rangers know they can just tell me for a haste during battle, and i'll hook them up at the earliest opportunity.

That said, I'm not opposed to Rangers getting a self-haste spell, maybe 9th circle? (not sure what they have at that circ) Rangers _are_ casters, so it isn't too out of whack for them to get it. I don't think it would really unbalance rangers at all...would only give some lazy chanters more of a break.

Oh, and if your chanter doesn't have time stop yet, help them level, and help them get it... Image

-Om
The Guardian
Imphras is Dead, long live Imphras!
Yayaril
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Jun 24, 2002 6:00 pm

Waelos' calculations:

Warrior - 8d4+30X2 = 124
Ranger/rogue - 3d4 +30 X3 = 126

Hasted Scenario:
Warrior - 8d4+30X3 - 186
Ranger/rogue - 3d4+30X5 - 210


If I'm not mistaken, Waelos, your calculations don't take into consideration averages. Your hypothetical ranger, rogue, and warrior always do maximum damage with their swings, which is about equivalent to playing poker all night and everyone keeps getting straight flushes. A d4 rolls on average a 2.5. Sure, any single roll may be 1-4, but as you roll more and more d4's, the average is going to tend towards 2.5

Yayaril Math (tm)

Warrior - (8d4+30)x2 = 100
Ranger/rogue - (3d4+30)x3 = 112.5

Hasted Scenario:
Warrior - (8d4+30)x3 = 150
Ranger/rogue - (3d4+30)x5 = 187.5


This is discluding any missing from the equations. Also, consider critical hits. The more attacks you make, the more criticals you do. 30 is a decent damageroll, but rangers want as high of damagerolls as possible, whereas warriors want hitpoints so they can tank better. Don't forget about that shield! It's impossible to shieldpunch and bash well without a shield, so a lot of the times warriors aren't going to be in '2h damage mode'.

Scenario2: Raised damroll by 5


Warrior - (8d4+35)x2 = 110
Ranger/rogue - (3d4+35)x3 = 127.5

Hasted Scenario:
Warrior - (8d4+35)x3 = 165
Ranger/rogue - (3d4+35)x5 = 212.5

Notice how as the damageroll increases, the ranger/rogue outpaces the warrior easily? Now extend this into even higher damrolls. Those extra attacks really start to mean more. For rogues, that extra damageroll stacks onto the circle damage nicely, giving them a bigger edge on damage. For rangers, who have more proc weapons available to them than rogues, the extra attacks give them an even higher chance of proccing each round.

Scenario3: Warrior with 1h weapon and shield

Warrior - (3d4+35)x2 = 85
Ranger/rogue - (3d4+35)x3 = 127.5

Hasted Scenario:
Warrior - (3d4+35)x3 = 127.5
Ranger/rogue - (3d4+35)x5 = 212.5

Seems the only way the warrior gets close to the ranger/rogue in damage is when they give up their tanking advantages to 2h wield and wear more damage gear than the ranger/rogue. I hope these mathematical equations have been helpful to you. However, if the only way you can feel helpful in a group is based upon how much damage you do, I think you should consider playing an invoker.

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-Yayaril
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Postby Sylvos » Mon Jun 24, 2002 6:15 pm

Not wanting to flame, but anyone who says rangers are 'true suckage' in a group w/o haste needs to play more.

If you really believe that 1-2 extra attacks makes you suddenly non-true-suckage, then I truly feel sorry for you. Allowing rangers some kind haste would be wonderful, but the fact remains that without it we are only somewhat less useful.

I cannot remember a time when rangers did receive haste outside of haste items. That memory goes back a long while, so I don't think it existed outside of Soj1 Alpha if ever. No offense Celara, but you are presenting 'facts' based on limited ptime as a ranger.

Sylvos
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Postby Mishre » Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:17 pm

who good necro

Listing of the Mortals!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
<None>

There are 0 mortal(s) on.

I rarely see any high level good necros on.. if i saw one while we were still organizing a zone group i would recommened one.. but there really aren't many necros on ever.. so enchanters will still be overworked and ppl will still be lacking haste... Rangers getting a self haste sounds like a good option.. i give the idea my thumbs up.. (oh.. that means nothing doesn't it? :P ) oh well..

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Mishri }-Sentinel-{ Shades of Twilight
Todrael
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Postby Todrael » Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:29 pm

If there were rarely ever any enchanters on, would you say give stone skin to warriors?

Why should the game change just because the players aren't willing to play a fun and unique class?

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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Kallinar
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Postby Kallinar » Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:30 pm

Blah I need no haste spell. Mage don't wanna spell me up? I whap em upside the head and tell em thing again.

What I want is innate tame (insert woodland creature here)

Kallinar sends you sprawling with a powerful 7(2a³+43b²)- 23½(144a+2¼) !
Waelos
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Postby Waelos » Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:35 pm

*peer* I hardly think my ptime as a ranger, however Sylvos, is anything to sneeze at. The debate isn't whether or not 1-2 more attacks is going to make you worth while. The issue is would those 1-2 attacks bring us a step closer to balance. And lets be honest bro. . .cutting our attacks from 1/2 to 1/3 per round (without haste) is quite a production decrease. And with mobs dodging or parrying like supermen nowadays you can count on even less of them hitting. You go to your boss and tell him you'll be working at 50-66% efficiency at your primary task from now on and you'll get fired.

Yayaril - I was always poor at statistics, so I'll have to take what you say at face value. Though my logic dictates that the dice # are still the same. 8d4 X 3 is 24d4. 3d4 X 5 is 15d4. The higher dice weapon is getting more 'd4 rolls' even taking into account the 5 vs 3 attacks. This would seem to negate your 'the more d4's you roll the higher the average' or what not =)

Also, everyone seems to be ignoring Paladins and AP's. Their damage rolls far outpace your average ranger and rogue by a long shot. Most warriors I know have a 35-38 damage roll. My damage roll is typically 40-44 depending on hps/etc. Yayaril's example of a margin of 5 is plausible, but only at the extreme maximization of the class. Paladin and Antipaladins can get past 50 damroll in extreme cases, and hit 40-45 with ease (Dark Wrath helps). They're wielding 8d4 weapons.

The additional 'crits' for multiple attacks is washed away by the increased % of typical warrior race str bonuses. Call it even.

And warriors hardly give up a tanking advantage when wielding 2h. They still have the hps, parry, rip and dodge skills that are very well honed for tanking. We all know many warriors who say 'screw it' and go 2h with great effectiveness. Of course, they won't do that on Gatehouse or Scorpking but, in general they can get away with tanking without a shield.

Anyway, like I said earlier, I can hardly complain. I'm thinking in terms of balance. With the new mob defense skills degrading an already overly weak melee system, this seems like a good time to address concerns of the melee classes most effected by these changes.

Thats all!

Lost

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Yayaril
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:43 pm

At 44 damroll, the differences between warrior and ranger are even fatter.

Scenario: 44 damroll

Warrior - (8d4+44)x2 = 128
Ranger/rogue - (3d4+44)x3 = 154.5

Hasted Scenario:
Warrior - (8d4+44)x3 = 192
Ranger/rogue - (3d4+44)x5 = 257.5

All in all, the damage dice of the weapon mean less than the damroll of the character. On average, a 8d4 weapon will do 20 damage. On average, a 4d4 weapon will do 10 damage. This is the smaller portion of damage compared to the 40+ damage you get from damroll. Warriors do an awful lot of switching between weapons, so they aren't the consistent damage dealers that rangers are. If it's any consolation to you, Waelos, I usually have about a 31 damroll, so you do way more damage than me.

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-Yayaril
Waelos
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Postby Waelos » Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:59 pm

Bah, Yayaril thats no consolation coming from a guy who won't wear an eyepatch and refuses to wear damage eq cuz his black and white boxer shorts are prettier on his head! *tickle* jk!

But the thing is. . we're not talking about me =) I know Im an exception. How many rangers have a 44 damroll? most will be 30 or so, like warriors. Those are the peeps I be worried about.

Lost

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Todrael
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Postby Todrael » Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Waelos:
<B>But the thing is. . we're not talking about me =) I know Im an exception. How many rangers have a 44 damroll? most will be 30 or so, like warriors. Those are the peeps I be worried about.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right. There is no problem to address when it comes to you. Which means this significant upgrade would just mean a lot more power to someone that is already admittedly very powerful. Balance has to take that into account, too.

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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:24 pm

I run around with 23/25 Image 26/28 with gythka.... someday I will have diamondines and that twinky cloud armor too!

Cherzra with another useless fact.

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Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:26 pm

"The additional 'crits' for multiple attacks is washed away by the increased % of typical warrior race str bonuses. Call it even."

Actually, it's not quite even. Last year when I did a lot of grouping with a warrior and rogue that both had crit counters, the warrior consistently got more criticals than the rogue despite the rogue being halfling (and hence getting an extra attack here and there) and hasted the vast majority of the time. The only reason I didn't go completely out of my mind from hearing a crit trigger go off every 4 rounds was because they were having a contest in who would get to 1000 crits first and I was genuinely curious about how the then new crit code was affecting high strength races. Higher number of attacks doesn't quite make for the same number of crits, but obviously the additional attacks have non-crit related benefits. I just threw this out since I found it interesting.

Anyway, back to the issue of haste . . .

The fact that rangers lack spellcast enchantment would mean it would last a pitifully short time is both the pro and con of giving a spell to rangers. Since it wouldn't even last through one fight, it wouldn't unbalance things. It also would be questionable where it's worthwhile to cast and having to take time to mem to get them back. Haste doesn't affect archery in its current incarnation either, though I don't know if there are still plans to rectify that (it was working on the test mud but then it stopped working and attempts to fix it led to crashes so the idea was temporarily put on hold when ranged first came in but I don't know if it's still on hold or been eliminated altogether. If haste did start affecting ranged, damage would be reduced accordingly to compensate), so it wouldn't affect the better equipped rangers as much either. Once the microscopic ranged damage bug gets fixed, most of us will be sticking to archery most of the time since we can actually get our hands on arrows that penetrate missile shield. It would mainly affect the average ranger that doesn't have a quiver full of the things and needs to go into melee against missile shielded mobs.

And yeah, obviously there's the haste on command item but that's just one item in an annoying zone and are ugly as hell. If I ever get a set of them, the first thing I'm doing is invising the things so that at least the people who look at me without a DI are spared the disgust Image

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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.
Nokie
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Postby Nokie » Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:03 pm

Please don't bundle rogues and rangers together for comparisons to warriors without making the very important note that rouges have a worse thac0 than rangers/warriors and must sacrifice more damroll to make up for the need for a lot more hitroll.

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Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:05 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by celara:
<B>Give rangers back the haste spell, or make it self-only. Or, add haste to natures blessing so that it is self-only.

Thank you for your consideration,
Celara
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think rangers ever had haste... Insofar as making nature's blessing haste, or give a chance to haste, that's an interesting idea.

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Deshana group-says 'guys he's a lil ditzy today'
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Postby Guest » Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:07 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nokie:
<B>Please don't bundle rogues and rangers together for comparisons to warriors without making the very important note that rouges have a worse thac0 than rangers/warriors and must sacrifice more damroll to make up for the need for a lot more hitroll.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wait, rogues are a seperate class from rangers?
Why wasn't I informed of this???


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Azuth God of Wizardry and Majiks
celara
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Postby celara » Tue Jun 25, 2002 12:53 am

Thank you all for your input of any sort, almost everything here makes a good case either for/against and has expanded well upon the initial post. I believe a good case has been made here, and would like to see some imm input into this if/when they read it.
Thank you again,
Celara

Celara sprawls you sending!

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Aim: damageXcase
Jorus
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Postby Jorus » Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:12 am

My view:

I don't generally haste anyone for "little" fights.

I do haste as many as I can for big fights, though. This means hitters get haste, and tanks get haste if there aren't any shielded mobs in the fight (or if there is an elementalist in the group).

The advantage to being a ranger is the sustained damage output, which is still greater than that of other non-damage classes (eg, tanks), even when not hasted.

But when the rangers and rogues are hasted, and the tanks aren't (dragonscale + fireshield is bad, mkay?), there is no competition.

I do get irritated at being bugged for hastes in "little" fights though, particularly when I'm still busy memming or keeping dscales up from the last fight. It won't make the slightest difference to the fight.

Regards,
Jorus/Arishae
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Postby Guest » Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:49 am

Waelos, the reason you're having a problem with the calculations is actually a fairly standard problem. Since damroll is added into the attack outside of the dice, it contributes a much larger percentage to the ranger/rogue by virtue of the additional attacks. That scenario with 3 attacks from the warrior and 5 attacks from the ranger/rogue means that the warriors is adding 30 damroll, while the ranger/rogue is adding 60.

I would suggest what Aldira suggested, which is to bring a bard. But then again I would, wouldn't I? Image

[This message has been edited by Iyachtu (edited 06-25-2002).]
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Postby kiryan » Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:09 am

going 2h doesnt affect warrior tanking ability
omg give me a break. it has a significant impact on tanking. Maybe insignificant when your 1500 hps scaled displaced armord blurred blessed bard songed prot all and got 2 clerics to full you, but its significant. warriors that tank 2h are giving up an excellent defensive skill.

damage calculations
8d4 = 8 x avg of a d4 min max 1..4, 2..3, avg = 2.5 avg damage = 8x2.5 = 20.. which is far different than 32. Your calculation overstates the damage on a 8d4 weapon around 60%. And this is of course foolishly assumes that the internal damage calculations ignore weapon and offensive skills as well as are calculated the same way for each class. However, Miax did say that rangers were hurting in dam output, so im sure he mustve collected data with that gc command or whatever.

rangers vs the world
rangers are not rogues and not warriors and not paladins/antis. Your in between warriors and rogues in tanking ability and should be in my mind inbetween rogues and paladins/antis for damage ability. Rangers always forget the little things that are awesome but you totally discount (some with good reason). You have DI, Sense, DM, invis, barkskin, goodberry, bless, faerie fire, vigs those are all solid very useful very nice abilities in addition to some staple combat skills. Don't even start complaining that rogues have better skills. last i checked they gotta beg or buy spells that you have. News flash if you wanted uber damage shoudlve been an invoker or at least a rogue perhaps an anti/paladin. If you wanted to be a ranger, you got what you asked for.

If you want to fix rangers, dont give them haste, dont give them more attacks. Fix what freaking broke them. few to zero off hand procing weapons, few to zero off hand weapons that are dualable by rangers and have decent dice/dam, 2h weapons that have put twilight to shame, things that triviliaze all their spells, archery. Also, what is the difference between playing a human, half, and grey elf ranger? perhaps some of that damage you are missing is cause you choose grey/half.


[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-25-2002).]
nedle
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Postby nedle » Tue Jun 25, 2002 3:59 pm

Im a big fan of helping your local chanter get tstop - I haste as much as possible, always have at least 5 memed typically more, start hasting with the strongest hitters and finish with the weakest or alternate hasting if the leader doing a speed run through the zone. if a chanter isnt hasting you its not because he doesnt like you or forgot(dont have to remind him every round) but probably due to the fact he's casting 13-15 spells before combat even starts...

speaking for myself (but probably echo for the 3 or 4 goodies chanters over 46 w/o tstop) help us finish tstop (must of us are almost there) and your haste will never drop...

Nedle the halfling chanter
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Postby Malacar » Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:08 pm

I don't even mem timestop.

It does not help to the extent that some folks are saying here, for me. 4 dscales are much more effective than 3 + time stop.

I have yet to group with a new bard, so I can't speak to that.

I haste rogues/rangers on big fights, but not incidentals.

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Postby Mishre » Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>If there were rarely ever any enchanters on, would you say give stone skin to warriors?

Why should the game change just because the players aren't willing to play a fun and unique class?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that doesn't make sense.. we are talking about giving a casting class a spell.. we aren't asking rogues to get haste.. itd be more like asking for better dualwield and backstab for warriors Image (which isn't necessary since we have enough hitters on) But you ahve to realize, playerbase isn't as high as it once was.. so its hard getting people to play something they don't want to play..(necros.. i like the idea, but i love tanking).. anyway.. i don't see any good reason why rangers shouldn't have it.. it wouldn't be really overpowering if it was a high circle (can't have level 21s running around powersoloing everywhere)



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Mishri }-Sentinel-{ Shades of Twilight
Todrael
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Postby Todrael » Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:53 pm

You can't blame this one on a small pbase. There are tons of necromancers on the evil side, all who play regularly, and we have significantly smaller numbers than the goodie side.

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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
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Postby Daz » Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:14 pm

woo! evils! i really want to play an enchanter, but i dont have the patience to put in the 33+ days of ptime i have to get where i am to get an enchanter that high. prolly one day i will, but . . . daz has more swords to find!

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-Daz Proudwolf, Tapestry Pirate
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Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:21 pm

What Todrael's saying is that the answer to this problem is already in the game, it's just that the goodie side rarely uses it to its potential.
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Postby torkur » Tue Jun 25, 2002 11:36 pm

Rangers have too many things going for them to suck as badly as you propose they do and really need self haste.

1)Tank.
2)Rescue.
3)Backup utility spells.
4)Dual wield. (Once dodge is tweeked)
5)Archery and damage/luring ability.
6)Surviving area spells better thanks to nature's blessing.
7)pwt when running from mobs.

If it's a problem, take an invoker instead of that 5th ranger or talk to a necro. Their pets can continuously haste mid battle with just an order and if you would actually take them, people will play the class and not be anon when they do.
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Jun 26, 2002 1:37 am

most times when i'm on there are 4-5 other dscaling chanters on, plus one or two lower level alts on the evil side.

also quite a few necros.

but we dont have rangers or paladins or anti's. less variety = more of the other classes around, even with a smaller percentage of the pbase on this side.
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Postby Daz » Wed Jun 26, 2002 1:47 am

. . . . when are YOU on that there are 4-5 dscaling enchanters? or is there an anonymous ds club?

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Postby Cruk » Wed Jun 26, 2002 2:39 am

I agree, always haste the ranger, especially troll rangers! *points to self*. If rangers get self-haste, does that mean i get it too? Image

Cruk(Troll ranger wannabe, my dual wield is now 28)

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No I am not Crukk from Exile. He now plays a girly hooman palydork :P
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Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 26, 2002 9:10 am

evils got around 15 scalers. there are so many scalers that they have to make alts so we dont have 2 and 3 scalers per group.

and 100% agree tod. why is it that we needed timestop again when the answer to lengthy spellups was already in the game?

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-26-2002).]
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Postby digion » Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:43 am

OK... so many may not know me but I have mudded on Sojourn/Toril for 5-6 years. I have played a ranger that whole time and have seen many things come and go. I have gone through 2 pwipes as have many of you, and 2 Ranger reworks with spell/skill changes.

You all are forgetting one thing in all these discussions.. The SOLO factor. I am now level 38 this time around and have done well over 90% of that exp solo.

My skills as a tank have never sucked more, and my hitting abilities are still nothing to brag about. And if I am out soloing there is noone to haste me. The result is... I can barely solo. I will spend hours doing Battle Mercs, or HP getting maybe 3-4 notches, and that is the BEST I can do soloing.

I know, many of you say go find a group. I try. I ask... get regected.. can count the number of times on one hand I have been invited to group. And how many times have you heard someone say (with archery being nerfed) WOW we really need a ranger. Image

Anyway.... LONG story short I think it would be VERY appropriate to give Rangers a haste add on to Natures Blessings... it would be very fitting.. and to me just makes sense. I would then be able to solo easier and not worry about being missed during spell ups etc etc etc...

I remember when Haste was taken from game. Rangers absolutely DIED from groups... WHY.. cause people could get a Warrior or (then) assassin and spank and not worry about Rangers whining about spell up (yes we did and do whine).. but I think haste is in very many ways ESSENTIAL to what it is to be a Ranger... in a group... and especially SOLO! For being the masters of dual wield... out soloing I barely see double of anything *shrug*.. so my two cents is give Rangers haste in Nat Blessings, and I will shuddup forever. Image *nog me*

thanks

[/B][/QUOTE]



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You say 'The only problem with soloing is I am constantly following a bad leader! :p'
apprentice
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Postby apprentice » Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:16 am

You made level 38 solo without haste? And you still want it, maybe to solo to 50?

Todrael said it already - get your friends to roll a necro.
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Postby Nilan » Thu Jun 27, 2002 9:01 am

Rangers get enough already.
Try bringing some other classes along in your groups like everyone else does. Necros truley rock for haste and other spells in groups. Why dont you goodies bring necros along in your zone groups?

Hasteing rangers is not the answer. Perhaps utilizing all your classes in groups is something you should try.

Nilan
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Postby Gromikazer » Thu Jun 27, 2002 9:49 am

OH SHIT! You solo'd to level 38? Damn.. I think my warrior had problems soloing past level 20 efficently. I mean without barkskin, cure crits, stick to snakes, di, invis, and various other spells.. PLEASE don't whine about being able to solo on a mud that has blatantly made it obvious that SOLOING is a thing of the past.

Not to be inflamitory. I just don't think rangers need to self haste, ever. If its that important, bring one of the 4 classes that can haste.

P.s. You don't realize how bad it is until you try to regen 350 hps sleeping between each fight. 1 notch for every 20-25 minutes at level 20 was pathetic.

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Gromikazer Terrorforge -Veldruk- Orbdrin D'oloth

[This message has been edited by Gromikazer (edited 06-27-2002).]
Croban/Owom
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Postby Croban/Owom » Thu Jun 27, 2002 3:21 pm

Digion man... see what you get? Image

Anyway, Digion hasn't been "SOLOING" necessarily. He does the same thing that I do. I spend 8 hours slaying the same things, that I can find, to get a notch (for me it is more like 40-50 hrs for a notch) and he levels that way.

Anyone who knows me knows that my philosophy on exp is any exp is good exp. I will do the same thing to death if I get a notch >sometime< for it. If you don't have the time to do what digion and I have had to do, then don't comment. There are people out there that can solo up to 46 alone (enchanters, and druids for fact). Just takes time doing dockies or whatever your flavor of soloing can be.

Do I agree with Digion for wanting haste? Shrug, I want stone skin myself. Just don't flame people for getting levels by working for em. Be constructive.

I actually do not see how adding haste (a short one) to a spell would hurt... heck make it nature castable only :-P


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- Owom Spiritbear -
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Postby Sylvos » Thu Jun 27, 2002 6:50 pm

Haste for rangers would be great. I won't deny that. But necessary? Not in the slightest. The evils have said it best - there are a lot of under-utilized classes and abilities on the mud, and those resources can help 'solve' this mythical 'problem'.

Sylvos "Speed is great, skill is greater" Winteraven

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