Come on! Where is da LOVE!

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Kasula
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Come on! Where is da LOVE!

Postby Kasula » Sat Aug 03, 2002 11:53 pm

SKILL_DIRE_RAIDER

The following is a list of all skills and spells available to the
Dire Raider class:

SKILLS

1st level: bash, rescue, mount, offense, 1h bludgeon, 1h
slashing, 1h piercing, 1h misc, swimming, bandage, 2h slashing,
2h bludgeon, 2h misc, archery, range specialist, woodcarving,
wilderness sneak, speak with plants

5th level: trap

10th level: meditate, quick chant, clerical spell knowledge, sorcerous spell
knowledge, spellcast generic, spellcast healing, spellcast summoning,
spellcast spirit, spellcast nature, spellcast divination, blindfighting,
mounted combat, dual wield

12th level: dodge

14th level: parry

15th level: awareness, unbind, summon mount, howl, surprise

20th level: double attack, track, strafe, switch opponents

30th level: missile snare, riposte, outflank

SPELLS

1st circle: detect magic, vigorize light, cure light

2nd circle: sense life, create food, create water, totem darts

3rd circle: vigorize serious, command undead, bless, detect invisibility, faerie fire

4th circle: cure serious, poison, invisibility, jar the soul

5th circle: protection from animals, vigorize critic

6th circle: fear, blindness, dustdevil

7th circle: barkskin, dispel magic, strength


8th circle: minor paralysis, cure critic

9th circle: hex, farsee

10th circle: pass without trace, poltergeist


NOTE: See HELP SPELL CIRCLE for an explanation of spell circles.

See also: DIRE RAIDER, WEAPONS, SPELLCAST, CIRCLE, MAGIC, SKILLS

The following is a list of all skills and spells available to the
Ranger class:

SKILLS

1st level: kick, bash, rescue, mount, offense, 1h bludgeon, 1h
slashing, 1h piercing, 1h misc, 2h bludgeon, 2h
slashing, 2h misc, range specialist, archery, swimming,
bandage, forage, tame mount, wilderness sneak, woodcarving,
speak with plants

5th level: scribe,

10th level: dual wield, meditate, quick chant, clerical spell
knowledge, sorcerous spell knowledge, spellcast
generic, spellcast invocation, spellcast
healing, spellcast teleport, spellcast summoning,
spellcast protection, spellcast divination,
spellcast nature, spellcast spirit, blindfighting

12th level: dodge

14th level: parry

15th level: surprise, awareness

20th level: double attack, track, mounted combat

30th level: riposte, missile snare

SPELLS

1st circle: detect magic, vigorize light, shillelagh

2nd circle: goodberry, cure light, detect good, detect evil, sense life

3rd circle: detect invisibility, faerie fire, sticks to snakes,
vigorize serious, bless

4th circle: cure serious, faerie fog, invisibility, summon insects

5th circle: vigorize critical, protection from animals

6th circle: barkskin, dust devil, sleep

7th circle: dispel magic, strength, nature's blessing

8th circle: minor paralysis, cure critic

9th circle: call lightning, transport via plants

10th circle: pass without trace, control weather


NOTE: See HELP SPELL CIRCLE for an explanation of spell circles.

See also: RANGER, WEAPONS, SPELLCAST, CIRCLE, MAGIC, SKILLS

The only thing that made ranger anyway cool was the fact that we had dual wield and archery but thats now gone... First, windsong gets downgraded and now this with the Dire Raiders... its like a slap in the face. Where is the balance? I understand that evils needed a Class with mounted combat like paladins and archery like Rangers but come on... They are Ten times better than Rangers... You see the skills side by side, you compare and tell me that we arent way unbalanced! I would go on strike and i would ask the other rangers to go on strike but... that would just be a normal day for most of us Rangers. The reason why Rangers are so whiny is because we have every right to be! Rogues got a huge upgrade, Bards got a huge Upgrade and now a slap in the face with the Dire Raiders! Truthfully, instead of the downgrades and slaps in the faces just take Rangers out of the game... and give the current rangers a chance to be Paladin or Warriors or Rogues, so we can be of some use to this mud. Image
Long live RANGERS!

[This message has been edited by Kasula (edited 08-03-2002).]
Sylvos
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Postby Sylvos » Sat Aug 03, 2002 11:59 pm

Kasula, your rant is premature. Dire Raiders have been in for a very short time, and there is no basis for complaint yet.

To the rest of the people who will read this, I am sorry. I can only say this for my own standpoint:

As a ranger and player of Sojourn for a long time, I have my concerns about Dire Raiders. Some of them are founded in my belief of an inbalance, and I will be honest and admit some of them are from jealousy. Regardless, until they have had some play-test time, there is no call whatsoever to complain about them.

When the time comes to give some non-Dire's feedback and opinions on the class, please look me up. I've given a lot of thought to the matter, and am willing to share my opinions. When the time is right.

Sylvos Winteraven
Multi-Generational Ranger
Gromikazer
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Postby Gromikazer » Sun Aug 04, 2002 12:02 am

As one of the ptesters, I'll chime in.

Quit your whining.

You do EVERY skill better then us, except for mounted combat which we SUCK at.

Nature's blessing is better then all other dire raider spells.

I think you just like pretending you are being abused. I'm sorry, I feel no pity for rangers.

I finally got to use archery, and damn its fun, and rangers horded it for so long. I'm glad the cat is out of the bag so to speak :P

Most importantly, this is the reason, why they are being TESTED!

So far, I don't see how rangers, have a legitimate complaint, but I guess i'm only 40th level... *shrug*
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Gromikazer Terrorforge -Veldruk- Orbdrin D'oloth

[This message has been edited by Gromikazer (edited 08-03-2002).]
celara
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Postby celara » Sun Aug 04, 2002 12:03 am

I have asked nicely SOOO many times and just been laughed at. Maybe if I'm a jerk, the post will get spammed with flames and an imm will take notice of what I have to say.
What really gets me? NOBODY has EVER gotten a decent reply about this. Never.

Gosh, I wish I had Jar the soul, blindness, hex, and barkskin at a lower circle. Oh god, please dont give me decent mounted combat and a hundred skills to go with it, PLUS the ability to summon my own mount. I might be a usefull class if you did that!!!
God forbid that I be able to tank anything, or have any kind of mounted ability, the mud would just c.r.u.m.b.l.e apart if rangers didnt SUCK. Ranger suckage is what keeps the mud together. If this one class wasnt complete crap, why, nobody would be anything but a ranger. Who would play our ghealers and stoners then? Who would dscale us? Nobody because we would all be rangers if they ever got any kind of a decent upgrade. We are the only goodie class with archery, but you make it suck? You give us spells that (except for one, your on the right track with natures blessing), every druid has? I dont get it.
Nobody Does.
Do something about it.
I believe its well within the abilities of the staff to make rangers a good class again.
And oh yeah, summon insects is a good idea, but is trash.
So is cure light/serious.
Celara
P.s.
Windsong. about a 17 item quest.
3d4 +4 +3, procs maybe 1-6 extra attacks, but 90% of the time, 1-2 attacks.
Sak dagger, like 5, people say its easy.
Better than windsong.
Basket hilt sword. about 4 items.
Better than windsong.
Do something about this. It is ridiculous.


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Just as soon as I belong/Then its time I disappear
Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Aug 04, 2002 12:06 am

Whatever, it's not like Rangers are going to lose any group slots over Dire Raiders. Evil group dynamics are different than goodie groups, since goodies get the mounted classes and druids. I say let them playtest and balance the class within the evil group structure, and don't get too worked up over whether they compare favorably to Rangers or not.

DRs do look more varied and a little more powerful than Rangers, and if I were rolling a new character tomorrow just by looking at the help files, I'd probably pick DR over Ranger. Raiders look much more combat based than Rangers; they lack spellcast enchantment that Rangers sorely missed for so long, in addition to several other spellcast schools. They also lack the early damage spells we get in shillelagh and sticks to snakes, which are both far better than their DR counterparts when used outside. True, Raiders don't suffer the nature penalty, but I levelled quite nicely with sticks to snakes for a long time.

DRs do get upper level spells that I'd swoon over, however... hex and farsee are both very strong. Don't forget that Rangers get Nature's Blessing though, and get it earlier than these other spells. Blindness in 6th circle isn't as great as it appears, since each attempt at a 30-second blind (no spellcast enchantment) will take 45 seconds to remem.

It's cool. Let the playtesters work out the nuances, I'm sure there will be changes soon enough.

(edit)Rangers get barkskin earlier than DRs do, Celara. You do raise one good point though, in that several Ranger spells that were supposed to "undergo tweaking" like summon insects never really saw any changes. I never understood the logic behind call lightning and control weather, especially as high as they are. But a year and 4 months have gone by now and the staff never really voiced a stance on it, so whatever.(/edit)

[This message has been edited by Ragorn (edited 08-03-2002).]
Gromikazer
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Postby Gromikazer » Sun Aug 04, 2002 12:10 am

Knowledge and being able to observe is the key here.

First, rangers get barkskin a circle before dire raiders. Second, our mounted combat is crap.. I currently have it at 70, and I can't tank anything even 5 levels lower with -100 ac at all without being owned. It almost never fires. Third, if you think archery sucks, I really do question your ability to play this game. It is probably the most fun skill I've seen in a while, and it owns. Lastly, Windsong is easily greater then basket hilt, and easily equal to icy dagger, which is AS MANY STEPS to get.

Can we rename this thread to rangers, unite and whine?

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Gromikazer Terrorforge -Veldruk- Orbdrin D'oloth
Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Aug 04, 2002 12:13 am

double post

[This message has been edited by Ragorn (edited 08-03-2002).]
Kasula
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Postby Kasula » Sun Aug 04, 2002 12:17 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sylvos:
<B>Kasula, your rant is premature. Dire Raiders have been in for a very short time, and there is no basis for complaint yet.

To the rest of the people who will read this, I am sorry. I can only say this for my own standpoint:

As a ranger and player of Sojourn for a long time, I have my concerns about Dire Raiders. Some of them are founded in my belief of an inbalance, and I will be honest and admit some of them are from jealousy. Regardless, until they have had some play-test time, there is no call whatsoever to complain about them.

When the time comes to give some non-Dire's feedback and opinions on the class, please look me up. I've given a lot of thought to the matter, and am willing to share my opinions. When the time is right.

Sylvos Winteraven
Multi-Generational Ranger</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand that Dires are in test mode, i have nothing against Dires. I m happy to see to evils get archery and mounted combat, they have been bitching about how they dont have it. Finally their whining can stop. My complaints are for the numberous downgrades and promises unrealized.
Gromikazer
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Postby Gromikazer » Sun Aug 04, 2002 12:19 am

Then why did you bring up dire raiders?

Just a sidenote,
If archery sucks now.. my god, I fear what it was like before.

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Gromikazer Terrorforge -Veldruk- Orbdrin D'oloth
celara
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Postby celara » Sun Aug 04, 2002 12:26 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gromikazer:
Second, our mounted combat is crap.. I currently have it at 70, </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cant notch it above 20.
And as for archery, yes, fear what it was like before. Try being level 42 and firing shots that do little dammage.


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Just as soon as I belong/Then its time I disappear

[This message has been edited by celara (edited 08-03-2002).]
Sylvos
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Postby Sylvos » Sun Aug 04, 2002 12:26 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by celara:
<B>I have asked nicely SOOO many times and just been laughed at. Maybe if I'm a jerk, the post will get spammed with flames and an imm will take notice of what I have to say.
What really gets me? NOBODY has EVER gotten a decent reply about this. Never.

Gosh, I wish I had Jar the soul, blindness, hex, and barkskin at a lower circle. </B>

Just as I'm sure there are times the dire raiders would like to have our nature damage spells (and bonus). Blindness isn't terribly reliable, they'll be better off just wielding an ebony. They get barkskin in a _higher_ circle than rangers (7th to our 6th).

Oh god, please dont give me decent mounted combat and a hundred skills to go with it, PLUS the ability to summon my own mount. I might be a usefull class if you did that!!!

Dire Raiders to not threaten the usefulness of Rangers in anyway. They receive the abilities to enable them to use their skills, just as Rangers do. (tame, carve).

<B>
God forbid that I be able to tank anything, or have any kind of mounted ability, the mud would just c.r.u.m.b.l.e apart if rangers didnt SUCK.</B>

This is one of my two main complaints about Dire Raiders - the ability to do archery damage and then tank, if need be, while having a 3rd attack avoidance skill (dodge, parry/riposte, mountblock). Even if it "sucks", not having that 3rd ability sucks even more Image Regardless, Dire's having that ability to be diverse threatens Rangers in only one way - new players rolling.

<B>
Ranger suckage is what keeps the mud together. If this one class wasnt complete crap, why, nobody would be anything but a ranger. Who would play our ghealers and stoners then? Who would dscale us? Nobody because we would all be rangers if they ever got any kind of a decent upgrade. We are the only goodie class with archery, but you make it suck? You give us spells that (except for one, your on the right track with natures blessing), every druid has? I dont get it.
Nobody Does.
Do something about it.</B>

Most of the above paragraph I won't respond to, there's nothing there to reply to. I still don't understand people claiming archery sucks - it has generally done 20-30% greater damage than my melee. The spells are done to give rangers diversity and flexibility, and I still chuckle hearing people complain about sleep, minor paralysis and summon insects. All three of them have dealt quite easily with trolls, and are the reason I have the arrows and money I do. Rangers have a lot in common with druids - go figure they are both nature-oriented classes.

<B>
I believe its well within the abilities of the staff to make rangers a good class again.
And oh yeah, summon insects is a good idea, but is trash.
So is cure light/serious.
Celara
</B>

Rangers are not a bad class, therefore they cannot be made a 'good class again'. I covered my opinion on summon insects, and when solo'ing any healing spells are good to have.

<B>
P.s.
Windsong. about a 17 item quest.
3d4 +4 +3, procs maybe 1-6 extra attacks, but 90% of the time, 1-2 attacks.
Sak dagger, like 5, people say its easy.
Better than windsong.
Basket hilt sword. about 4 items.
Better than windsong.
Do something about this. It is ridiculous.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A class is not defined by the items it can use. Windsong ceased to be the premier ranger weapon when Oakvale went in - yes it is the most prevalent weapon but that is not the fault of anyone but the wielders. If you think the basket sword is better, then quest it and wield it.

Sylvos Winteraven

P.S. I spoke with the primary coder behind Dire's a little while ago, and received a very favorable response to some of my points. I also learned some of the mechanics behind the Dire Raider skills, which helped set my mind at ease about some of the skills.
celara
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Postby celara » Sun Aug 04, 2002 12:29 am

Ok well thats that. This is why this does'nt work. Rangers post against ranger upgrades. I'm probably done with this thread.

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Sylvos
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Postby Sylvos » Sun Aug 04, 2002 12:29 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gromikazer:
<B>Can we rename this thread to rangers, unite and whine?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, no unity here :P 2 active rangers complaining against, 1 active/1 inactive arguing against them. Image But Celara is right, Mounted caps at 20 for us, and we can't tank a mob 10-15 levels below us at -100 ac w/o getting rocked. But that's a different story.
Kasula
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Postby Kasula » Sun Aug 04, 2002 12:29 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gromikazer:
<B>Knowledge and being able to observe is the key here.

First, rangers get barkskin a circle before dire raiders. Second, our mounted combat is crap.. I currently have it at 70, and I can't tank anything even 5 levels lower with -100 ac at all without being owned. It almost never fires. Third, if you think archery sucks, I really do question your ability to play this game. It is probably the most fun skill I've seen in a while, and it owns. Lastly, Windsong is easily greater then basket hilt, and easily equal to icy dagger, which is AS MANY STEPS to get.

Can we rename this thread to rangers, unite and whine?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i have grouped with Dires and i know from experiences that they are vastly superior over ranger at the equal levels. Rangers tank a little better than rogues... and you want to complain about your tanking ability. You may love Archery now but we Rangers know that at high levels and zones that Archery is somewhat unless since all the mobs have missile shield. And all the good arrows beyond 1/1 are quest and very expensive. 3/3 arrows are 50p a piece, never mind the quest involved.
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Postby Calinth » Sun Aug 04, 2002 12:30 am

First off, archery is slightly worse than it was before the big (accidental?)downgrade a couple months back, but it's at least useful again.

Only having a mounted combat skill of 70 isn't exactly a good argument, rangers cap out at 20, I think. I know mine's at 12 and hasn't notched despite hours of trying a few levels back.

But, in any event, I have to agree with Sylvos and Gromi. The class has been in a test mode for what, a week and a half, two weeks? You know it's going to change, most likely downgraded, before it goes live. There's little sense in starting this kind of argument now. A straight comparison of skills is also kinda pointless, since the two classes aren't exactly competing for group slots. And without knowing skill caps for Dire Raiders, I'm not going to speculate on how they compare to rangers anyway.


Edit. Damn, I think 6 posts went in between when I started this and when I posted it. Think I'll hang back til it's cooled down a bit Image

Cal

[This message has been edited by Calinth (edited 08-03-2002).]
Sylvos
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Postby Sylvos » Sun Aug 04, 2002 12:33 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by celara:
<B>Ok well thats that. This is why this does'nt work. Rangers post against ranger upgrades. I'm probably done with this thread.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I saw no request for any upgrade, only complaints about what we don't have. And I'm trying to keep the general mud-wide view in mind, which includes much more than rangers.
Kasula
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Postby Kasula » Sun Aug 04, 2002 12:44 am

A class is not defined by the items it can use. Windsong ceased to be the premier ranger weapon when Oakvale went in - yes it is the most prevalent weapon but that is not the fault of anyone but the wielders. If you think the basket sword is better, then quest it and wield it.

Sylvos Winteraven

Come on you know and i know that Oakvale is first never done, and second well there doesnt need to be a second... but second quest is insanely hard. I would love to quest for the Oakvale sword, so would alot of Rangers but it just isnt possible for most of us. The weapon doesnt make the class, i would like to disagree on this point. I think all eq makes the class and especially weapons. Without the better eq and weapons we would not be able to do nothing. Can you imagine a run to CC or Manscorps in newbie wear... Windsong was designed for Rangers in mind since Warriors could use all weapons and Paladins had Holy Avenger and any 2handed weapons, and Rogue with the piercing. When they downgraded windsong they essentially downgraded Rangers.
DONT GET ME WRONG! I LOVE PLAYING A RANGER. Its the only thing i have played since Sojo1 and toril.
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Postby Yayaril » Sun Aug 04, 2002 1:20 am

If you wanted to be a great tank, then you should have rolled up an enchanter or illusionist. Enchanters and illusionists can tank mobs equal or higher to their level.

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-Yayaril
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Postby Daz » Sun Aug 04, 2002 1:33 am

I just wanted to be a non ranger/dr posting in here.

if rangers are so underpowered - why are there so many of them? when bards were underpowered - i never saw 8 or 9 of them on. they cant be that bad.



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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
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Postby Mplor » Sun Aug 04, 2002 1:39 am

You group-say 'All Rangers pls remove fly now';W;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;snicker 1.Ranger;snicker 2.Ranger;

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Postby Azralek Silvermist » Sun Aug 04, 2002 2:08 am

Daz

Rangers are popular in fantasy literature hence the tendancy of a lot of new players to roll them up. Therefore the numbers are not a reflection of the stregnth of the class.

That being said many of the experienced rangers have alts that bleong to a more popular and neccessary zoning class to cover those times when sitting at 1 west gets boring

That being said rangers are a way better class than they were in any of the previous incarnations. And i ma happy for the evils to have thier version.

Azmaell/Azralek
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Postby Rurga » Sun Aug 04, 2002 2:41 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by celara:
<B>I have asked nicely SOOO many times and just been laughed at. Maybe if I'm a jerk, the post will get spammed with flames and an imm will take notice of what I have to say.
What really gets me? NOBODY has EVER gotten a decent reply about this. Never.

Gosh, I wish I had Jar the soul, blindness, hex, and barkskin at a lower circle. Oh god, please dont give me decent mounted combat and a hundred skills to go with it, PLUS the ability to summon my own mount. I might be a usefull class if you did that!!!
God forbid that I be able to tank anything, or have any kind of mounted ability, the mud would just c.r.u.m.b.l.e apart if rangers didnt SUCK. Ranger suckage is what keeps the mud together. If this one class wasnt complete crap, why, nobody would be anything but a ranger. Who would play our ghealers and stoners then? Who would dscale us? Nobody because we would all be rangers if they ever got any kind of a decent upgrade. We are the only goodie class with archery, but you make it suck? You give us spells that (except for one, your on the right track with natures blessing), every druid has? I dont get it.
Nobody Does.
Do something about it.
I believe its well within the abilities of the staff to make rangers a good class again.
And oh yeah, summon insects is a good idea, but is trash.
So is cure light/serious.
Celara
P.s.
Windsong. about a 17 item quest.
3d4 +4 +3, procs maybe 1-6 extra attacks, but 90% of the time, 1-2 attacks.
Sak dagger, like 5, people say its easy.
Better than windsong.
Basket hilt sword. about 4 items.
Better than windsong.
Do something about this. It is ridiculous.


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hey Celara, be happy with what you got. Damn, all I see is you whining and crying. My god, get over it. I played a ranger up to level 47, I've done windsong, I had my warbow, all that good shit. I remember when archery got nerfed, I quit playing ranger then. Now, dire's came out, and I ptested them a bit before I took a break from playing. Cry me a freaking river. So you don't get mounted combat above 20. Oh my god, the end of the world. Damn, I guess you can't ride a horse and hide behind the damn warriors and arch. I pity you, really. I feel your pain. *bill clinton thumbs up*

How about you go do windsong from the start as opposed to be given the quest leaf more than half way into the quest. I swear. Rangers are a nicely well rounded class. They do what they're supposed to do well enough, even with a slight damage downgrade from archery.

Dires _are_ still being tested. I'm sure it'll all be worked out. Let evils enjoy archery. It's not like they got to use it when it was doing uber-damage. Quit your whining, hunt your GC rares, and play the damn game. feh.

/rant

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Rurga Split Skull
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Postby Tasan » Sun Aug 04, 2002 2:56 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kasula:
<B>
Come on you know and i know that Oakvale is first never done, and second well there doesnt need to be a second... but second quest is insanely hard. I would love to quest for the Oakvale sword, so would alot of Rangers but it just isnt possible for most of us. The weapon doesnt make the class, i would like to disagree on this point. I think all eq makes the class and especially weapons. Without the better eq and weapons we would not be able to do nothing. Can you imagine a run to CC or Manscorps in newbie wear... Windsong was designed for Rangers in mind since Warriors could use all weapons and Paladins had Holy Avenger and any 2handed weapons, and Rogue with the piercing. When they downgraded windsong they essentially downgraded Rangers.
DONT GET ME WRONG! I LOVE PLAYING A RANGER. Its the only thing i have played since Sojo1 and toril. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There were people who did these "zones" for the first time in gear that would be skoffed at at this point in the game. Did they die much? I'm sure they did. Did the reward mean that much more? Of course it did. Is the new class of Dire Raider going to make rangers obsolete? No.

Saying that equipment makes the character just shows me even more why you say rangers suck. All characters in this game are based on the playing of the person behind the screen. The player makes the character, not the equipment.

I think it's sad that there are mainly 2 rangers whining about dire's here, yet it is assumed every ranger must agree. I personally haven't a problem with dire's at all, because of the following:

1) they are being ptested right now
2) they are evil only, and can only be used by evil groups
3) the people that brought the class into the game understand balance probably much better than you
4) they are people too, and they are only as good as the people playing them

Stop whining about ranger uselessness. Most of us have found our own niche, and are fairly happy with that niche.

Twyl

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I am jack's complete lack of effort.
Sylvos
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Postby Sylvos » Sun Aug 04, 2002 3:00 am

I can honestly say - these last two posts make me very happy indeed. Image
Guest

Postby Guest » Sun Aug 04, 2002 3:06 am

This thread clearly needs a group hug Image


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Azuth God of Wizardry and Majiks
Mplor
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Postby Mplor » Sun Aug 04, 2002 5:06 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rurga:
*bill clinton thumbs up*</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, that made me bust up laughing. Thanks. Image

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Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Aug 04, 2002 5:50 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mplor:
<B>You group-say 'All Rangers pls remove fly now';W;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;snicker 1.Ranger;snicker 2.Ranger;

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*mutter*

- Ragorn drops from sight
kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Sun Aug 04, 2002 6:09 am

whining may indeed be in order, but it is definitely premature.

1. class still being balanced duh.

2. class is evil only. if evils start blowing up zones because of dire raiders, maybe you can start crying about balance. until then your whines are obviously pure jealousy over an on paper skillset.

3. you see any level 50 raiders yet? or you just complaining about balance at level 20? if at level 50 they can out tank warriors and out damage rogues, ill be one of the first to bitch.

4. the spell list is fucking awesome and im not talking about the damage spells. they may have their place, stuns could be nice, but i don't see their damage line being useful at all. are there any utility spells in that list that rangers don't get? shall we compare mem times?

5. you can't use archery while mounted. so when you get switched to you tank like a rogue. and omg archery is some sick shit. its fun and does some awesome damage. and this is after it was downgraded??? amazing. can't wait to see it in action at higher levels.

can I ask again why your crying over a evil only class? exactly what impact does this have on rangers except in your own mind? Are dire raiders supposed to be evil rangers?

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where ara you my rittle raabuuri
Sylvos
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Postby Sylvos » Sun Aug 04, 2002 6:38 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
<B>

can I ask again why your crying over a evil only class? exactly what impact does this have on rangers except in your own mind? Are dire raiders supposed to be evil rangers?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, not that I disagree Kiryan but the same could be applied to alot of your arguments against rangers that have been made on this bbs. Image *whistle*
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Postby Kallinar » Sun Aug 04, 2002 6:47 am

As a former ranger, and present dire raider p-tester, I can assure you, Dires are > than rangers in a couple ways...but Rangers are still >Dires in their own manner. I miss my tame ability :P *wipes the token tear from his eye*
Dires are definately gonna be a controversy class for the more whiny rangers, but remember, Dire raider != ranger. Dires are a bastard crossbreed of the Anti-Paladin, the shaman, the ranger, and the warrior. I have voiced my opinion about certain factors like renaming barkskin since Dires are shaman based and not cleric/druid based, but that is still undecided yet I suppose due to the fact that Shamen get no such spell. *shrug* Make it class specific? All sorts of factors are still being tossed about for this class and we're all workin hard to play them and report any buggyness that we find.

I was one of the people that were adamant about getting a class like this for the evil side. This class takes care of the people that grunt about evil-race paladins (yeah Dires ain't paladins, but they sure as hell have cooler mounts), and takes care of my gripe about the lack of evilrace archers. :P

When Dire raiders go live for everyone, play one for a while. You will notice that they aren't all that different than rangers are, and the shaman spells don't make that much of a difference. i still use mostly the same spells I used as a ranger now (Vig Crit, Bark, Create food/Water, bless, Detect Magic, etc.)

We may have a more tasty LOOKING spell list, but after its all said and done, its still mostly utility spells, and I don't mind it at all.

That is all. No more talk about dires being better that someone else now ok? Good rangers.
Go carve a canoe.

Tiryar was here
Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Sun Aug 04, 2002 7:29 am

Shrug... as I see it now.. (my dire is only 30).. Dire Raiders is a novelty and a fringe class.

The only reason you'd bring a dire for a zonegroup is luring and barkskin, as they can't tank worth crap, and melee damage is useless in zones unless you do Avernus.

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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Yayaril
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Postby Yayaril » Sun Aug 04, 2002 7:39 am

Dire raiders seem to be a cork in the bottle of all the evil's whines about not having paladins and rangers. Unfortunately, the cork used belonged to the bottle of the ranger's whine. Unfortunately, that's opening the bottle of a caste of players who often have huge inferiority complexes, and are very verbal about it. Here's where I think it all stems:

The Ranger Inferiority Complex. The ranger in most muds and MMORPG's seem to have a root in the Dungeons and Dragons ranger. The ranger in Dungeons and Dragons 2nd edition was overpowered compared to his fellow fighter. People who liked lots of attack power often chose to play the ranger as they enjoyed ripping enemies to shreds. Well, the ranger in muds and MMORPG's are usually more well balanced, and this is where the troubles begin. People who enjoyed playing the ranger in D&D choose the ranger when they play online games.

When the ranger players see that they are being outdone by other classes and aren't the one-man wrecking crews they used to be whilst playing Pen & Paper games, they get angry. Since they worked themselves up as being rangers in their minds, they no longer fit the role of super-killing-machine. They don't know how to do anything else but be rangers, and instead of seeking out another class that fits the role of damage-monster, they whine. This whine has filled countless threads on the Everquest message boards until they were taken down. Now this whine fills these boards.

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-Yayaril
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Postby Ambar » Sun Aug 04, 2002 12:53 pm

I have issues about getting hit in the head with arrows while xping ... should i rant about that? (giggle)

You know I kinda RP a hatred of rangers .. but at the same time my goodie grouped with rangers allll the time .. and i wouldnt trade the damage! (course this was a grey elf warrior that was my goodie) we'd be exping ... and doing little damage .. my ranger friend would log on (poke rurga) and the damage would go sky high ...

i think anyone that has that many cpmplaints about her class REALLY needs to:

1) roll a warrior if you want to tank
2) roll an invoker if you want the damage
3) roll an ogre shaman and REALLY feel the love

but then she'd prolly bitch about the hps issue ...

Rangers are UTILITY characters! They SHOULDn't be the uber melee or tank ability .. thats why we have meatshields! I don't know how far out of line i am (im sorry celera's post kinda pissed me off:P) with this since i am NOT a ranger (can u imagine a phat ass ogre ranger) or a dire ptester (yeah yeah yeah i make fun of the evil rangers too .. just ask them)

god im gonna say it (stfu all u dires i tease :P)

ARCHERY OWNS ... if you are a ranger and don't use archery .. and bitch about your class....... shame on you :P


and one last thing .. thank you to the imm who did all the work on dires ... i personally appreciate all the trouble, hours, blood and sweat they took to create
(gggggggggggggoooooo barkskin!)

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Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition

[This message has been edited by Ambar (edited 08-04-2002).]
Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Sun Aug 04, 2002 10:10 pm

First off, I believe that the inability to use archery while mounted is a bug. We were able to use it fine mounted on testmud way back during some initial testing of the code. Miax and the rest of us had no idea what the hell effect it had, just that it didn't crash testmud, but we didn't slide off our mounts doing it. I'm guessing that what now happens when you use archery while mounted is just another of many bad interactions between melee and ranged engines, namely the mounted combat code view a bow as just another 2 handed weapon so you slide off since mounted is less than 75. Lots of weird shit happens when the melee engine rubs up against the ranged engine still.

Anyway, my sentiments are about the same as Sylvos's. We discussed the issue a bit and feel that jumping to conclusions is still premature but do have some concerns. But that's what testing is for. How a class's skill list appears on the help file is nowhere near as accurate of an indication of their power level until someone gets one up to 50 and maxes out all their skills.

For now, my only real concern is the availability of +3 or greater arrows. Archery is of questionable use for any ranger that doesn't know the one source for relatively easy to acquire arrows, an area that is also farmed by many who are just after some of the monetary rewards in the area and which knowledge about isn't spread freely partically because of how heavily trafficked the area is already. They also don't come cheap. More area makers need to start putting in sources of arrows capable of penetrating missile shield in mid-high level areas. Having an adequete supply is as important as having hitter gear from vault/sg before tackling the bigger zones in the mud.

Oh, and Yaya, I think it's more along the lines of an identity crisis personally. I've seen rangers done very well in plenty of games outside of 2nd edition D&D, but they never seem to have most of their abilities in common. The archetype seems to mutate everytime someone decides to make a high fantasy game so people bring many different expectations to the class. And I would never ever mention EQ when talking about anything game balance or game feedback related Image

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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.

[This message has been edited by Treladian (edited 08-04-2002).]
Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Aug 04, 2002 10:42 pm

One example of the difference between what's printed on paper and how things actually work on the mud:

Did you know Dire Raiders get 4 attacks hasted and not 5 or 6? I didn't, until I talked to Gromi about it on the mud. That makes their melee damage output a full 20% lower than a similarly equipped Ranger.

Let the playtesters do their work Image

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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
Cira
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Postby Cira » Mon Aug 05, 2002 12:21 am

There is *SUCH* an easy solution to this. If you like Dire Raiders more, and think they have better skills/spells/whatever, go roll a Dire Raider. Problem Solved. Sitting here whining about it won't solve a thing, it just makes you look silly.

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Cira - ShaWOman
Gromikazer
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Postby Gromikazer » Mon Aug 05, 2002 7:23 am

Another unwritten rule, is that dire raiders can ONLY mount wolves. 3/week period. No carpets, taming, whatever. Once the 3 wolves are gone, we lose all our special skills, and we are significantly less then a ranger.

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Gromikazer Terrorforge -Veldruk- Orbdrin D'oloth
Galkar
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Postby Galkar » Mon Aug 05, 2002 1:38 pm

Heh. Why should rangers even care. It's an evil only class. It has already been stated once that Dire Raiders are NOT the evil equivalent of rangers. Plain and simple. Rangers are Rangers, and DR's are DR's. Get over it, all of you.

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Abbayarra
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Postby Abbayarra » Mon Aug 05, 2002 7:50 pm

Archery was overpowered, I'll be the first to admit that. I remember a time when I was 25th with a 40th level meatshield and doing enough archery damage to take the 2nd floor of monestary. That was deeply impressive, also unbalanced. I am nearing zoning level as a ranger now, I am concerned about my role now that damage from archery has been balanced. I am happy with hitpoints(human) and with nature's blessing I've survived area attack spells that caused everyone else a lot of grief. My ability to do higher level zones is going to hinge on how easily better arrows and bows are available for me. If there was one playbalance I'd give rangers and even perhaps warriors is mounted combat. I could see a warrior with the ability to get mounted combat up to 25and a ranger to 50. I love to drag a horse around with me and when I get switched to I find triggers are a wonderful thing.
Two other possible "fixes" if needed is a better success rate on my dispel magic when I try and take down the missile shields, or a spell that only targets missile shield, perhaps a 10th circle spell.
Even with everything, I'm still pleasantly surprised with the ability of my Ranger up to 35th level, I can bash to a fair extent, not autobash mind you, but enough. Now if I could only get rescue to a decent level...
Peace...
Abbayarra
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Postby Jegzed » Mon Aug 05, 2002 7:56 pm

I just got a level 36 dire, but so far, archery have been insane.

Its like walking around with unlimited minute meteors..



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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Thu Aug 08, 2002 6:01 pm

I take issue with them getting barkskin.

The rest, I withold comment on.

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malo mori quam foedari: I would rather consent Mori than suffer dishonor.
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Postby Ambar » Thu Aug 08, 2002 6:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B>I take issue with them getting barkskin.

The rest, I withold comment on.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

why do you take issue with barkskin?? no other evil class gets it *shrug*

that's kinda like saying this place sucks and not offering reason WHY

i still love ya tho Mori

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Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition

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