The great charade
As the West prepares for an assault on Iraq, John Pilger argues that 'war on terror' is a smokescreen created by the ultimate terrorist ... America itself
War on Iraq? Discuss it here
Sunday July 14, 2002
The Observer
It is 10 months since 11 September, and still the great charade plays on. Having appropriated our shocked response to that momentous day, the rulers of the world have since ground our language into a paean of cliches and lies about the 'war on terrorism' - when the most enduring menace, and source of terror, is them.
The fanatics who attacked America came from Saudi Arabia and Egypt. No bombs fell on these American protectorates. Instead, more than 5,000 civilians have been bombed to death in stricken Afghanistan, the latest a wedding party of 40 people, mostly women and children. Not a single al-Qaeda leader of importance has been caught.
Following this 'stunning victory', hundreds of prisoners were shipped to an American concentration camp in Cuba, where they have been held against all the conventions of war and international law. No evidence of their alleged crimes has been produced, and the FBI confirms only one is a genuine suspect. In the United States, more than 1,000 people of Muslim background have 'disappeared'; none has been charged. Under the draconian Patriot Act, the FBI's new powers include the authority to go into libraries and ask who is reading what.
Meanwhile, the Blair government has made fools of the British Army by insisting they pursue warring tribesmen: exactly what squaddies in putties and pith helmets did over a century ago when Lord Curzon, Viceroy of India, described Afghanistan as one of the 'pieces on a chessboard upon which is being played out a great game for the domination of the world'.
There is no war on terrorism; it is the great game speeded up. The difference is the rampant nature of the superpower, ensuring infinite dangers for us all.
Having swept the Palestinians into the arms of the supreme terrorist Ariel Sharon, the Christian Right fundamentalists running the plutocracy in Washington, now replenish their arsenal in preparation for an attack on the 22 million suffering people of Iraq. Should anyone need reminding, Iraq is a nation held hostage to an American-led embargo every bit as barbaric as the dictatorship over which Iraqis have no control. Contrary to propaganda orchestrated from Washington and London, the coming attack has nothing to do with Saddam Hussein's 'weapons of mass destruction', if these exist at all. The reason is that America wants a more compliant thug to run the world's second greatest source of oil.
The drum-beaters rarely mention this truth, and the people of Iraq. Everyone is Saddam Hussein, the demon of demons. Four years ago, the Pentagon warned President Clinton that an all-out attack on Iraq might kill 'at least' 10,000 civilians: that, too, is unmentionable. In a sustained propaganda campaign to justify this outrage, journalists on both sides of the Atlantic have been used as channels, 'conduits', for a stream of rumours and lies. These have ranged from false claims about an Iraqi connection with the anthrax attacks in America to a discredited link between the leader of the 11 September hijacks and Iraqi intelligence. When the attack comes, these consorting journalists will share responsibility for the crime.
It was Tony Blair who served notice that imperialism's return journey to respectability was under way. Hark, the Christian gentleman-bomber's vision of a better world for 'the starving, the wretched, the dispossessed, the ignorant, those living in want and squalor from the deserts of northern Africa to the slums of Gaza to the mountain ranges of Afghanistan.' Hark, his 'abiding' concern for the 'human rights of the suffering women of Afghanistan' as he colluded with Bush who, as the New York Times reported, 'demanded the elimination of truck convoys that provide much of the food and other supplies to Afghanistan's civilian population'. Hark his compassion for the 'dispossessed' in the 'slums of Gaza', where Israeli gunships, manufactured with vital British parts, fire their missiles into crowded civilian areas.
As Frank Furedi reminds us in The New Ideology of Imperialism , it is not long ago 'that the moral claims of imperialism were seldom questioned in the West. Imperialism and the global expansion of the western powers were represented in unambiguously positive terms as a major contributor to human civilisation.' The quest went wrong when it was clear that fascism was imperialism, too, and the word vanished from academic discourse. In the best Stalinist tradition, imperialism no longer existed. Today, the preferred euphemism is 'civilisation'; or if an adjective is required, 'cultural'.
From Italy's Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, an ally of crypto-fascists, to impeccably liberal commentators, the new imperialists share a concept whose true meaning relies on a xenophobic or racist comparison with those who are deemed uncivilised, culturally inferior and might challenge the 'values' of the West. Watch the 'debates' on Newsnight. The question is how best 'we' can deal with the problem of 'them'.
For much of the western media, especially those commentators in thrall to and neutered by the supercult of America, the most salient truths remain taboos. Professor Richard Falk, of Cornell university, put it succinctly some years ago. Western foreign policy, he wrote, is propagated in the media 'through a self righteous, one-way moral/legal screen [with] positive images of western values and innocence portrayed as threatened, validating a campaign of unrestricted violence'.
Perhaps the most important taboo is the longevity of the United States as both a terrorist state and a haven for terrorists. That the US is the only state on record to have been condemned by the World Court for international terrorism (in Nicaragua) and has vetoed a UN Security Council resolution calling on governments to observe international law, is unmentionable.
'In the war against terrorism,' said Bush from his bunker following 11 September, 'we're going to hunt down these evil-doers wherever they are, no matter how long it takes.'
Strictly speaking, it should not take long, as more terrorists are given training and sanctuary in the United States than anywhere on earth. They include mass murderers, torturers, former and future tyrants and assorted international criminals. This is virtually unknown to the American public, thanks to the freest media on earth.
There is no terrorist sanctuary to compare with Florida, currently governed by the President's brother, Jeb Bush. In his book Rogue State , former senior State Department official Bill Blum describes a typical Florida trial of three anti-Castro terrorists, who hijacked a plane to Miami at knifepoint. 'Even though the kidnapped pilot was brought back from Cuba to testify against the men,' he wrote, 'the defence simply told the jurors the man was lying, and the jury deliberated for less than an hour before acquitting the defendants.'
General Jose Guillermo Garcia has lived comfortably in Florida since the 1990s. He was head of El Salvador's military during the 1980s when death squads with ties to the army murdered thousands of people. General Prosper Avril, the Haitian dictator, liked to display the bloodied victims of his torture on television. When he was overthrown, he was flown to Florida by the US Government. Thiounn Prasith, Pol Pot's henchman and apologist at the United Nations, lives in New York. General Mansour Moharari, who ran the Shah of Iran's notorious prisons, is wanted in Iran, but untroubled in the United States.
Al-Qaeda's training camps in Afghanistan were kindergartens compared with the world's leading university of terrorism at Fort Benning in Georgia. Known until recently as the School of the Americas, it trained tyrants and some 60,000 Latin American special forces, paramilitaries and intelligence agents in the black arts of terrorism.
In 1993, the UN Truth Commission on El Salvador named the army officers who had committed the worst atrocities of the civil war; two-thirds of them had been trained at Fort Benning. In Chile, the school's graduates ran Pinochet's secret police and three principal concentration camps. In 1996, the US government was forced to release copies of the school's training manuals, which recommended blackmail, torture, execution and the arrest of witnesses' relatives.
In recent months, the Bush regime has torn up the Kyoto treaty, which would ease global warming, to which the United States is the greatest contributor. It has threatened the use of nuclear weapons in 'pre-emptive' strikes (a threat echoed by Defence Minister Geoffrey Hoon). It has tried to abort the birth of an international criminal court. It has further undermined the United Nations by blocking a UN investigation of the Israeli assault on a Palestinian refugee camp; and it has ordered the Palestinians to replace their elected leader with an American stooge. At summit conferences in Canada and Indonesia, Bush's people have blocked hundreds of millions of dollars going to the most deprived people on earth, those without clean water and electricity.
These facts will no doubt beckon the inane slur of 'anti-Americanism'. This is the imperial prerogative: the last refuge of those whose contortion of intellect and morality demands a loyalty oath. As Noam Chomsky has pointed out, the Nazis silenced argument and criticism with 'anti German' slurs. Of course, the United States is not Germany; it is the home of some of history's greatest civil rights movements, such as the epic movement in the 1960s and 1970s.
I was in the US last week and glimpsed that other America, the one rarely seen among the media and Hollywood stereotypes, and what was clear was that it was stirring again. The other day, in an open letter to their compatriots and the world, almost 100 of America's most distinguished names in art, literature and education wrote this:
'Let it not be said that people in the United States did nothing when their government declared a war without limit and instituted stark new measures of repression. We believe that questioning, criticism and dissent must be valued and protected. Such rights are always contested and must be fought for. We, too, watched with shock the horrific events of September 11. But the mourning had barely begun when our leaders launched a spirit of revenge. The government now openly prepares to wage war on Iraq - a country that has no connection with September 11.
'We say this to the world. Too many times in history people have waited until it was too late to resist. We draw on the inspiration of those who fought slavery and all those other great causes of freedom that began with dissent. We call on all like-minded people around the world to join us.'
It is time we joined them.
This is a revised extract from The New Rulers of the World , by John Pilger, published by Verso.
source: http://www.observer.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,754879,00.html
------------------
food for (American) thought
You know, every once in a while I think maybe I should read newspapers and watch the news in order to keep informed in case a discussion like this pops up. Then I think about it some more, and realize the pointlessness of even trying. The author accuses the media of lying, of glossing over facts in order to preserve the image of America... yet he is part of the media who simply has the opposite agenda. So why should I believe that this guy is telling us the truth? With the obvious agenda of making America look like an evil superpower, why wouldn't he use the same tactics as his bretheren and make up facts or exaggurate them to make us look as bad as possible.
Perhaps I should just choose the author who lies the best, and assume his story is correct?
------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.
Perhaps I should just choose the author who lies the best, and assume his story is correct?
------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.
They have every right to believe what they want. The whole situation is not as black and white as some take it to be. Many people have given their lives so that we could actually question the actions of our leaders without fear of any repercussions. I think many of the governemnts in North america and Europse are lacking in criticism, even from the opposition in their respective parliaments or house of representatives.
------------------
Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.
------------------
Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Slavan:
<B>Half way through reading I was sick. The person that wrote this is a terriorist himself, twisting things to make the evil look like the innocent.
America the free!
As for people that think this is true and live on American soil, LEAVE!</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bah! I was gonna write a long rant....but nevermind....the person who wrote that pile of garbage is an idiot who needs to check his facts.
<B>Half way through reading I was sick. The person that wrote this is a terriorist himself, twisting things to make the evil look like the innocent.
America the free!
As for people that think this is true and live on American soil, LEAVE!</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bah! I was gonna write a long rant....but nevermind....the person who wrote that pile of garbage is an idiot who needs to check his facts.
Must be nice to have no accountability and sit idly by pointing fingers at those who choose action over apathy.
------------------
And shepherds we shall be, for Thee my Lord, for Thee.
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand,
that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
We will flow a river forth unto Thee,
and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
In nomine Patris, et Fili, et Spiritu Sancti.
------------------
And shepherds we shall be, for Thee my Lord, for Thee.
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand,
that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
We will flow a river forth unto Thee,
and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
In nomine Patris, et Fili, et Spiritu Sancti.
It never is as black and white as the media makes it seem. America has never been the aggressive super terrorist that this article suggests. Nor has it ever been the spick and span Cleaver household that some people wish for.
I have done my part as a cog in the great machine. I have written my congressman to denounce the so called 'Patriot Act', which seems to use the Constitution for tp. I will try to remember who made which decisions come election time. That's my part. What have you done?
Oh and Chezra, you Dutch probably shouldn't talk. You have more terrorist on the street than anyone...
*ring-ring*
Oh SHIT!
*Takes a leaping dive out of the way of the rampaging bicycle while thinking 'I'd rather take my chances with the tram...'*
------------------
Rausrh licks you.
I have done my part as a cog in the great machine. I have written my congressman to denounce the so called 'Patriot Act', which seems to use the Constitution for tp. I will try to remember who made which decisions come election time. That's my part. What have you done?
Oh and Chezra, you Dutch probably shouldn't talk. You have more terrorist on the street than anyone...
*ring-ring*
Oh SHIT!
*Takes a leaping dive out of the way of the rampaging bicycle while thinking 'I'd rather take my chances with the tram...'*
------------------
Rausrh licks you.
How many patriotic american citizens do you see strapping bombs to themselves and walking into populated areas to suicide bomb innocent people in the name of god.
How many patriotic american citizens do you see hijacking planes only to crash them into the financial centers of other countries, killing thousands of people, in the name of god.
They screw with us, we screw with them back, and most often they get the worst end of the deal.
Give me a break.
Galkar - They're breathing air the rest of us are going to need one day -
------------------
How many patriotic american citizens do you see hijacking planes only to crash them into the financial centers of other countries, killing thousands of people, in the name of god.
They screw with us, we screw with them back, and most often they get the worst end of the deal.
Give me a break.
Galkar - They're breathing air the rest of us are going to need one day -
------------------
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galkar:
<B>How many patriotic american citizens do you see strapping bombs to themselves and walking into populated areas to suicide bomb innocent people in the name of god.
How many patriotic american citizens do you see hijacking planes only to crash them into the financial centers of other countries, killing thousands of people, in the name of god.
They screw with us, we screw with them back, and most often they get the worst end of the deal.
Give me a break.
Galkar - They're breathing air the rest of us are going to need one day -
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Couldnt have said it better myself!!
<B>How many patriotic american citizens do you see strapping bombs to themselves and walking into populated areas to suicide bomb innocent people in the name of god.
How many patriotic american citizens do you see hijacking planes only to crash them into the financial centers of other countries, killing thousands of people, in the name of god.
They screw with us, we screw with them back, and most often they get the worst end of the deal.
Give me a break.
Galkar - They're breathing air the rest of us are going to need one day -
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Couldnt have said it better myself!!
Call me a redneck if you wish, call me ignorant, call me a warmonger. I am very proud of living in a country where I could write a paper like that if I chose, and not be hunted down and branded a traitor for it. September 11th was a public execution of our citizens on our own soil.
My American flag is still flying, I didn't remove it when the furor died down, and it won't be removed any time soon.
Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue (Angry American)- Toby Keith
American girls and American guys
Will always stand up and salute
Will always recognize
When we see Old Glory flying
There's a lot of men dead
So we can sleep in peace at night
When we lay down our head
My Daddy served in the army
Where he lost his right eye
But he flew a flag out in our yard
Till the day that he died
He wanted my Mother, my Brother,
My Sister and me
To grow up and live happy
In the land of the free
Now this nation that I love
Is falling under attack
A mighty sucker punch came flying in
From somewhere in the back
As soon as we could see clearly
Through our big black eye
Man we lit up your world
Like the Fourth of July
Oh, justice will be served
And the battle will rage
This big dog will fight
When you rattle his cage
You'll be sorry that you messed
With the U.S. of A.
Cause we'll put a boot in your ass
It's the American way
Chorus:
Hey, Uncle Sam put your name
At the top of his list
And the Statue of Liberty
Started shaking her fist
And the eagle will fly
And it's going to be hell
When you hear Mother Freedom
Start ringing her bell
And it will feel like the whole wide world
Is raining down on you
Brought to you courtesy
Of the Red, White and Blue
My American flag is still flying, I didn't remove it when the furor died down, and it won't be removed any time soon.
Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue (Angry American)- Toby Keith
American girls and American guys
Will always stand up and salute
Will always recognize
When we see Old Glory flying
There's a lot of men dead
So we can sleep in peace at night
When we lay down our head
My Daddy served in the army
Where he lost his right eye
But he flew a flag out in our yard
Till the day that he died
He wanted my Mother, my Brother,
My Sister and me
To grow up and live happy
In the land of the free
Now this nation that I love
Is falling under attack
A mighty sucker punch came flying in
From somewhere in the back
As soon as we could see clearly
Through our big black eye
Man we lit up your world
Like the Fourth of July
Oh, justice will be served
And the battle will rage
This big dog will fight
When you rattle his cage
You'll be sorry that you messed
With the U.S. of A.
Cause we'll put a boot in your ass
It's the American way
Chorus:
Hey, Uncle Sam put your name
At the top of his list
And the Statue of Liberty
Started shaking her fist
And the eagle will fly
And it's going to be hell
When you hear Mother Freedom
Start ringing her bell
And it will feel like the whole wide world
Is raining down on you
Brought to you courtesy
Of the Red, White and Blue
Well usa isn't somekind of sheep or victim doing no harm.
What are they doing in the middle east anyways, in the first place? Ever thought about that?
What have they done to the people in the middle east, to make them perform these terror acts?
Do someone just come up with the idea to kill innocent people for fun? Don't think so.
These stupid bin ladin people probobly have some kind of cause they fight for. Their innocent families have probobly been slauthtered by the usa (in some way or another).
Have you ever heard a full statement from any bin ladin people, to why they do it?
I haven't read one thing about it, i havent got one clue, and i watch media a lot. Maybe i missed it, or usa maybe just don't want to show their own people what they are doing.
But one thing is for sure, usa is not in the middle east because of anything else than their own profit.
I get the impression many people from the usa have no clue what is going on in the middle east. The only thing they get, is a sudden airplane crashing into a building. Viewing it from them, off course it looks like they have been totally terrorized...
But if people start looking into WHY someone flew a plane into a building, perhaps some things might clear up....
shrug...
The people that got killed in terrorism in usa were probobly innocent, but USA was probobly not innocent. Perhaps the people that make the terror acts view every american citizen as USA. And to make most harm, they do what would cause most pain to the usa as a whole. Not some dead soldiers who are getting paid for dieing, (which are stationed in middle-east), but attacking the usa itself, where it hurts the most (innocent people living their daily lives).
----------------------------------
Disclaimer... i dont know shit about it. So most of this is probobly just rambling.
But as a non-american, i can say most of my friends and people around me do not view usa as somekind of heroes or victims, more of somekind of nation forcing people to do stuff, to gain own profit (oil or whatever).
I'm from sweden btw.
[This message has been edited by Kyos (edited 07-18-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Kyos (edited 07-18-2002).]
What are they doing in the middle east anyways, in the first place? Ever thought about that?
What have they done to the people in the middle east, to make them perform these terror acts?
Do someone just come up with the idea to kill innocent people for fun? Don't think so.
These stupid bin ladin people probobly have some kind of cause they fight for. Their innocent families have probobly been slauthtered by the usa (in some way or another).
Have you ever heard a full statement from any bin ladin people, to why they do it?
I haven't read one thing about it, i havent got one clue, and i watch media a lot. Maybe i missed it, or usa maybe just don't want to show their own people what they are doing.
But one thing is for sure, usa is not in the middle east because of anything else than their own profit.
I get the impression many people from the usa have no clue what is going on in the middle east. The only thing they get, is a sudden airplane crashing into a building. Viewing it from them, off course it looks like they have been totally terrorized...
But if people start looking into WHY someone flew a plane into a building, perhaps some things might clear up....
shrug...
The people that got killed in terrorism in usa were probobly innocent, but USA was probobly not innocent. Perhaps the people that make the terror acts view every american citizen as USA. And to make most harm, they do what would cause most pain to the usa as a whole. Not some dead soldiers who are getting paid for dieing, (which are stationed in middle-east), but attacking the usa itself, where it hurts the most (innocent people living their daily lives).
----------------------------------
Disclaimer... i dont know shit about it. So most of this is probobly just rambling.
But as a non-american, i can say most of my friends and people around me do not view usa as somekind of heroes or victims, more of somekind of nation forcing people to do stuff, to gain own profit (oil or whatever).
I'm from sweden btw.
[This message has been edited by Kyos (edited 07-18-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Kyos (edited 07-18-2002).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Slavan:
<B>Half way through reading I was sick. The person that wrote this is a terriorist himself, twisting things to make the evil look like the innocent.
America the free!
As for people that think this is true and live on American soil, LEAVE!</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yup! If there are people here that don't like what America stands for, and wants to kill us, then I say boot them the fu** out of the country. Free speach is all fine, but if you want to harm me or any of our citizens, then you don't deserve to be here and leech off of my tax dollars.
<B>Half way through reading I was sick. The person that wrote this is a terriorist himself, twisting things to make the evil look like the innocent.
America the free!
As for people that think this is true and live on American soil, LEAVE!</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yup! If there are people here that don't like what America stands for, and wants to kill us, then I say boot them the fu** out of the country. Free speach is all fine, but if you want to harm me or any of our citizens, then you don't deserve to be here and leech off of my tax dollars.
-
Kerath
- Sojourner
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada
- Contact:
I probably shouldn't have even read this thread, but hey, I've got a streak of mental masochism in me.
Humanity never ceases to amaze me, how we react when we hear things that we don't like, something that contradicts what we believe, that contradicts the propaganda bombarding us via the government, the media and who knows what else.
I don't think you have to agree with the article that Cherzra presented. Far from it. The whole point of our 'freedom' is that you -don't- have to agree with it. But if you want to disagree, why not propose an equally eloquent and well-researched counter-argument instead of just barfing out some mindless, blindly patriotic drivel?
If you're going to denounce something, why not at least have a decent reason for it? If you believe in something that strongly, you should be able to defend it extensively instead of giving an answer barely worthy of a preschooler.
And besides, even if I strongly disagree with something I've read or heard, it's often interesting to study them because it's an outside viewpoint, a different way of viewing an event or subject. Being opposed is one thing, but being ignorant or closed-minded is quite another.
This looks like an attack, I know, but I don't really mean it to be. I'm just kinda sick of people offhandedly dismissing anything that contradicts what they believe. I have a feeling that every one of us is a smart, decent human being. So lets act the part, shall we?
[This message has been edited by Kerath (edited 07-18-2002).]
Humanity never ceases to amaze me, how we react when we hear things that we don't like, something that contradicts what we believe, that contradicts the propaganda bombarding us via the government, the media and who knows what else.
I don't think you have to agree with the article that Cherzra presented. Far from it. The whole point of our 'freedom' is that you -don't- have to agree with it. But if you want to disagree, why not propose an equally eloquent and well-researched counter-argument instead of just barfing out some mindless, blindly patriotic drivel?
If you're going to denounce something, why not at least have a decent reason for it? If you believe in something that strongly, you should be able to defend it extensively instead of giving an answer barely worthy of a preschooler.
And besides, even if I strongly disagree with something I've read or heard, it's often interesting to study them because it's an outside viewpoint, a different way of viewing an event or subject. Being opposed is one thing, but being ignorant or closed-minded is quite another.
This looks like an attack, I know, but I don't really mean it to be. I'm just kinda sick of people offhandedly dismissing anything that contradicts what they believe. I have a feeling that every one of us is a smart, decent human being. So lets act the part, shall we?
[This message has been edited by Kerath (edited 07-18-2002).]
-
Disoputlip
- Sojourner
- Posts: 956
- Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Copenhagen
-
Ilshadrial
- Sojourner
- Posts: 417
- Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Atlanta
- Contact:
-
Kerath
- Sojourner
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada
- Contact:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>Thank the USA your not speaking German today.
(Of course unless your german *heh*)
*wink*
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why not thank Russia while you're at it? After all, they suffered twenty million casualties in World War II fighting for the Allied nations.
<B>Thank the USA your not speaking German today.
(Of course unless your german *heh*)
*wink*
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why not thank Russia while you're at it? After all, they suffered twenty million casualties in World War II fighting for the Allied nations.
-
Guest
I hate for this to turn into a flamewar, but at least we need to have some facts.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Miax:
Yeah, we're hunting those responsible for killing thousands of our people without provacation. We were not In the middle east before Sept 11, and we went in with a very specific purpose. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Last time I checked US had plenty of presence in the mideast the last ten years. There's someone even playing here who was with the US troops in Desert Storm.
There is even a few US military bases in the mid east.
I'd suspect losing a war against US, and seeing american soldiers based in the "holy" saudi arabia is enough to drive some loony religious fanatics to terrorism.
/Jegzed who thinks the world would be a much better place if the entire middle east was nuked, and then paved to a flat surface.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Miax:
Yeah, we're hunting those responsible for killing thousands of our people without provacation. We were not In the middle east before Sept 11, and we went in with a very specific purpose. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Last time I checked US had plenty of presence in the mideast the last ten years. There's someone even playing here who was with the US troops in Desert Storm.
There is even a few US military bases in the mid east.
I'd suspect losing a war against US, and seeing american soldiers based in the "holy" saudi arabia is enough to drive some loony religious fanatics to terrorism.
/Jegzed who thinks the world would be a much better place if the entire middle east was nuked, and then paved to a flat surface.
*blink*
First time I've ever seen Miax flame someone. Go Kris, go.
I read about 3 paragraphs of the original post and lumped it in with all of the other anti-American propaganda that paints us as the terrorists and Afghanastan as the victim. Statistics can prove anything, the statistics in the essay above are far too narrow and one-dimensional to paint an accurate picture of the situation. A few colorful exaggerations like "concentration camp" were even thrown in to evoke emotion and sympathy, though they are never explained or followed through on. This was neither the most informative essay I've read, nor the most inflammatory.
The world can think what it wants to think. I, as an American citizen, had only a vague idea what was going on in the Middle East on September 10th. Israel and Palestine are fighting over holy land, we buy oil from Saudi Arabia, Iraq wants to kill us, and there are some other nations in there that squabble over land and religion on a daily basis. But y'know what, what I know about the middle east isn't important, because I'm not the one making decisions. It doesn't matter shits for donuts what the average American citizen knows about life in the middle east. Pundits from around the globe stand up and point fingers, saying "Americans couldn't even find Lubekastan on a map." as some sort of justification for their belief that America is at fault for the terrorist actions.
Here's a trivia question for the arrogant nations of the world: If Pakistan launched a nuke at you tomorrow, citing your culture and religion as reasons, what could you tell me about daily life in Pakistan and the difficulties between Pakistan and India? Probably less than I could tell you about Afghanastan. After all, we got an earful about the arab nations ten years ago, the LAST time a Bush kicked the shit out of some people who tried to fuck with us.
------------------
- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
First time I've ever seen Miax flame someone. Go Kris, go.
I read about 3 paragraphs of the original post and lumped it in with all of the other anti-American propaganda that paints us as the terrorists and Afghanastan as the victim. Statistics can prove anything, the statistics in the essay above are far too narrow and one-dimensional to paint an accurate picture of the situation. A few colorful exaggerations like "concentration camp" were even thrown in to evoke emotion and sympathy, though they are never explained or followed through on. This was neither the most informative essay I've read, nor the most inflammatory.
The world can think what it wants to think. I, as an American citizen, had only a vague idea what was going on in the Middle East on September 10th. Israel and Palestine are fighting over holy land, we buy oil from Saudi Arabia, Iraq wants to kill us, and there are some other nations in there that squabble over land and religion on a daily basis. But y'know what, what I know about the middle east isn't important, because I'm not the one making decisions. It doesn't matter shits for donuts what the average American citizen knows about life in the middle east. Pundits from around the globe stand up and point fingers, saying "Americans couldn't even find Lubekastan on a map." as some sort of justification for their belief that America is at fault for the terrorist actions.
Here's a trivia question for the arrogant nations of the world: If Pakistan launched a nuke at you tomorrow, citing your culture and religion as reasons, what could you tell me about daily life in Pakistan and the difficulties between Pakistan and India? Probably less than I could tell you about Afghanastan. After all, we got an earful about the arab nations ten years ago, the LAST time a Bush kicked the shit out of some people who tried to fuck with us.
------------------
- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
-
Ilshadrial
- Sojourner
- Posts: 417
- Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Atlanta
- Contact:
I think what Miax is saying is that we did not act in the middle east until acted upon. Yeah, we have tons of people in the mid east, but they were never as active as they are now and were during Desert Storm.
We've only gone after them AFTER they've done something to us or that will severly affect us, directly, or indirectly.
------------------
We've only gone after them AFTER they've done something to us or that will severly affect us, directly, or indirectly.
------------------
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>You mean paved to a flat surface and then add the oil pumps!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
heheh... good idea..
Actually, the best thing to stop moslem fanatics would be to stop using cars which require petrol.
If arabs can't sell petrol, they have no money and without the huge amounts of money from Saudis, Al-Qaida would never have been able to do what they did...
------------------
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
<B>You mean paved to a flat surface and then add the oil pumps!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
heheh... good idea..
Actually, the best thing to stop moslem fanatics would be to stop using cars which require petrol.
If arabs can't sell petrol, they have no money and without the huge amounts of money from Saudis, Al-Qaida would never have been able to do what they did...
------------------
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
I could write a long article detailing the wrongs of American foreign policy but it was written for me. I am American, i like living here. This is only place i have known but i know that there are other places in the world that maybe not have the same lifestyle, culture or religion. We must respect everyone even especially if they are different. To all the god fearing American that believe in the bible, how can you allow yourselves to believe in some of the things?! Last i remember of the bible, it teachs tolerance, love and peace. Where is the tolerance, where is the love and most importantly where is the peace? Yes, you might say that the terrorist started it, than i ask you to read the bible again. What does it say, it says to turn the other cheek. I m sooooooooo sick of people who use religion and nationality to further than greedy warmongering ways. Just because we rap ourselves in the american flag and pray to god, it doesnt give us the right to invade, pillage and rape other independant countries. i could go on and on... but ill stop. OPEN YOUR FREAKING EYES!! EVERYTHING ISNT COLORED IN RED,WHITE AND BLUE!!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kasula:
<B>I could write a long article detailing the wrongs of American foreign policy but it was written for me. I am American, i like living here. This is only place i have known but i know that there are other places in the world that maybe not have the same lifestyle, culture or religion. We must respect everyone even especially if they are different. To all the god fearing American that believe in the bible, how can you allow yourselves to believe in some of the things?! Last i remember of the bible, it teachs tolerance, love and peace. Where is the tolerance, where is the love and most importantly where is the peace? Yes, you might say that the terrorist started it, than i ask you to read the bible again. What does it say, it says to turn the other cheek. I m sooooooooo sick of people who use religion and nationality to further than greedy warmongering ways. Just because we rap ourselves in the american flag and pray to god, it doesnt give us the right to invade, pillage and rape other independant countries. i could go on and on... but ill stop. OPEN YOUR FREAKING EYES!! EVERYTHING ISNT COLORED IN RED,WHITE AND BLUE!!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I for one refuse to tolerate unprovoked attacks agaist civilians that are aimed at destroying infrastructure and economy, as well as government. Making this a religious issue is incompetant at best. The facts remain that almost every action taken by the US in the past ten years that has dealt with the middle east has been somewhat driven by our need for oil, and for our protection from being cut off(from the oil) by those who would do so.
Telling Americans to open their eyes to what's going on is a fairly stupid comment to make. Those who are in positions of power are probably the ones with the most knowledge of the subject. I may not like every decision made by our leaders, but I know that for the most part they are doing a good job of keeping my ass in one place and not blasted all over.
Twyl bleeds those colors for a reason.
------------------
Not as lost...
<P:std> lost
You are totally and utterly lost! Next time bring a compass!
< 401h/401H 128v/128V >
<P:std> You receive an ornate compass from Twyl.
You give an ornate compass to Twyl.
<B>I could write a long article detailing the wrongs of American foreign policy but it was written for me. I am American, i like living here. This is only place i have known but i know that there are other places in the world that maybe not have the same lifestyle, culture or religion. We must respect everyone even especially if they are different. To all the god fearing American that believe in the bible, how can you allow yourselves to believe in some of the things?! Last i remember of the bible, it teachs tolerance, love and peace. Where is the tolerance, where is the love and most importantly where is the peace? Yes, you might say that the terrorist started it, than i ask you to read the bible again. What does it say, it says to turn the other cheek. I m sooooooooo sick of people who use religion and nationality to further than greedy warmongering ways. Just because we rap ourselves in the american flag and pray to god, it doesnt give us the right to invade, pillage and rape other independant countries. i could go on and on... but ill stop. OPEN YOUR FREAKING EYES!! EVERYTHING ISNT COLORED IN RED,WHITE AND BLUE!!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I for one refuse to tolerate unprovoked attacks agaist civilians that are aimed at destroying infrastructure and economy, as well as government. Making this a religious issue is incompetant at best. The facts remain that almost every action taken by the US in the past ten years that has dealt with the middle east has been somewhat driven by our need for oil, and for our protection from being cut off(from the oil) by those who would do so.
Telling Americans to open their eyes to what's going on is a fairly stupid comment to make. Those who are in positions of power are probably the ones with the most knowledge of the subject. I may not like every decision made by our leaders, but I know that for the most part they are doing a good job of keeping my ass in one place and not blasted all over.
Twyl bleeds those colors for a reason.
------------------
Not as lost...
<P:std> lost
You are totally and utterly lost! Next time bring a compass!
< 401h/401H 128v/128V >
<P:std> You receive an ornate compass from Twyl.
You give an ornate compass to Twyl.
Jegzed who thinks the world would be a much better place if the entire middle east was nuked, and then paved to a flat surface.
LOL I have thought thought too I'm ashamed to say.
As an Italian/American living in NY what happened left little choices as to how to respond. Had we turned the other cheek others would have attacked us in similar ways. We have the highest standard of living of any other country. Not only do we have our own tv but with short wave radios we can get news from anywhere in the world, satilite tv too probably. If there is a country that it's citizens can freely get as much informations as they can stand, I would have to think the U.S. ranks #1. How many of you remember how their woman a treated? How many other countries do woman have the freedom that they do here in America? Why do so many people want to come here? Troups in other countries are there with the permission of those countries governments. Let's face facts if we wanted to take over a country we could very quickly. Sanctions and what not are from the United nations as well, not just us. Funny that whay Iraq did to Kuwate(sp) has long since been forgotten. I guess those people who died don't count or matter.
If the U.S. wanted profit stop giving all that forgein aid out, all those billions every year.
LOL I have thought thought too I'm ashamed to say.
As an Italian/American living in NY what happened left little choices as to how to respond. Had we turned the other cheek others would have attacked us in similar ways. We have the highest standard of living of any other country. Not only do we have our own tv but with short wave radios we can get news from anywhere in the world, satilite tv too probably. If there is a country that it's citizens can freely get as much informations as they can stand, I would have to think the U.S. ranks #1. How many of you remember how their woman a treated? How many other countries do woman have the freedom that they do here in America? Why do so many people want to come here? Troups in other countries are there with the permission of those countries governments. Let's face facts if we wanted to take over a country we could very quickly. Sanctions and what not are from the United nations as well, not just us. Funny that whay Iraq did to Kuwate(sp) has long since been forgotten. I guess those people who died don't count or matter.
If the U.S. wanted profit stop giving all that forgein aid out, all those billions every year.
-
Guest
Man, I wish I could live in Kasula's world where everyone could hug out their problems and there was no war.
Because, really, the proper responce to someone ramming three commuter aircraft into civilian buildings is to go "yeah, you got us good there! Let's talk about our feelings for each other and work something out."
Because, really, the proper responce to someone ramming three commuter aircraft into civilian buildings is to go "yeah, you got us good there! Let's talk about our feelings for each other and work something out."
-
Grungar
- Sojourner
- Posts: 967
- Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Somewhere on the east coast, usually.
- Contact:
Things like this make me think of "March of the Pigs" by Nine Inch Nails. Lyrics as follows (beware the dirty word!):
step right up march push
crawl right up on your knees
please greed feed (no time to hesitate)
I want a little bit I want a piece of it I think he's losing it
I want to watch it come down
don't like the look of it don't like the taste of it don't like the smell of it
I want to watch it come down
all the pigs are all lined up
I give you all that you want
take the skin and peel it back
now doesn't that make you feel better?
shove it up inside surprise! lies
stains like the blood on your teeth
bite chew suck away the tender parts
I want to break it up I want to smash it up I want to fuck it up
I want to watch it come down
maybe afraid of it let's discredit it let's pick away at it
I want to watch it come down
now doesn't that make you feel better?
the pigs have won tonight
now they can all sleep soundly
and everything is all right
It's cool to hate America; it's cool to hate the big kid on the block. Easy to point the finger. And it won't end any time soon, either. Don't care one bit what other nations think. What matters to me is what's in my heart. Dunno how many other Americans feel this way, but yeah. The world has reached such a point that isolationism is no longer possible, due to the burgeoning telecommunications industry. It'd be interesting, though, if we were to go into into a self-imposed isolationism (like oldskool USA under Washington, or like oldskool Japan, pre-Meiji... You know, feudal style). What would the world do? It'd sure be better off, right...?
- Grungar "It is my job to keep punk rock elite" Forgefire
step right up march push
crawl right up on your knees
please greed feed (no time to hesitate)
I want a little bit I want a piece of it I think he's losing it
I want to watch it come down
don't like the look of it don't like the taste of it don't like the smell of it
I want to watch it come down
all the pigs are all lined up
I give you all that you want
take the skin and peel it back
now doesn't that make you feel better?
shove it up inside surprise! lies
stains like the blood on your teeth
bite chew suck away the tender parts
I want to break it up I want to smash it up I want to fuck it up
I want to watch it come down
maybe afraid of it let's discredit it let's pick away at it
I want to watch it come down
now doesn't that make you feel better?
the pigs have won tonight
now they can all sleep soundly
and everything is all right
It's cool to hate America; it's cool to hate the big kid on the block. Easy to point the finger. And it won't end any time soon, either. Don't care one bit what other nations think. What matters to me is what's in my heart. Dunno how many other Americans feel this way, but yeah. The world has reached such a point that isolationism is no longer possible, due to the burgeoning telecommunications industry. It'd be interesting, though, if we were to go into into a self-imposed isolationism (like oldskool USA under Washington, or like oldskool Japan, pre-Meiji... You know, feudal style). What would the world do? It'd sure be better off, right...?
- Grungar "It is my job to keep punk rock elite" Forgefire
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kiaransalee:
<B>Man, I wish I could live in Kasula's world where everyone could hug out their problems and there was no war.
Because, really, the proper responce to someone ramming three commuter aircraft into civilian buildings is to go "yeah, you got us good there! Let's talk about our feelings for each other and work something out."</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is better than killing more innocent civilians. When has killing more people solved any problem? Im not bashing just americans or america, im bashing all religious and nationalistic fanatics.
[This message has been edited by Kasula (edited 07-18-2002).]
<B>Man, I wish I could live in Kasula's world where everyone could hug out their problems and there was no war.
Because, really, the proper responce to someone ramming three commuter aircraft into civilian buildings is to go "yeah, you got us good there! Let's talk about our feelings for each other and work something out."</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is better than killing more innocent civilians. When has killing more people solved any problem? Im not bashing just americans or america, im bashing all religious and nationalistic fanatics.
[This message has been edited by Kasula (edited 07-18-2002).]
Come to think of it. The people who lost their lives during 911 weren't as innocent as they may appear. The lives of Americans are based on a continuous cycle of World domination -> World peace -> International trade -> GDP -> Military prowess -> World domination. By being a part of America's work force, they contributed ultimately to the America's military prowess which in turn allowed US to trample through everything they want. If this was what provoked the suicide bombings, then they are not innocent. However, since they play such a minor roll in this cycle, I don't think they really deserve it.
On the other hand, religion is the root of all evil. If one does anything based on a religion or a belief, then he/she is being manipulated by the evil.
Therefore when you compare Americans and Muslims. One is just out to dominate you while the other is just pure evil. So I say let's just flatten the entire Middle East and put lots of oil plants on it
Yssilk
On the other hand, religion is the root of all evil. If one does anything based on a religion or a belief, then he/she is being manipulated by the evil.
Therefore when you compare Americans and Muslims. One is just out to dominate you while the other is just pure evil. So I say let's just flatten the entire Middle East and put lots of oil plants on it
Yssilk
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tasan:
<B> I for one refuse to tolerate unprovoked attacks agaist civilians that are aimed at destroying infrastructure and economy, as well as government. Making this a religious issue is incompetant at best. The facts remain that almost every action taken by the US in the past ten years that has dealt with the middle east has been somewhat driven by our need for oil, and for our protection from being cut off(from the oil) by those who would do so.
Telling Americans to open their eyes to what's going on is a fairly stupid comment to make. Those who are in positions of power are probably the ones with the most knowledge of the subject. I may not like every decision made by our leaders, but I know that for the most part they are doing a good job of keeping my ass in one place and not blasted all over.
Twyl bleeds those colors for a reason.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This has always been a religious issue and nationalistic issue. It is the fanatics that has hijacked the whole world and made it their war and issue. We need more people to prevent the push towards militarism, nationalism, and religiousism. As in Germany in WWII, it was a religious and nationalistic issue. It was the fanatical Nazis that hijacked Germany lead them into a war. They used the jewish people as an escapegoat and to ignite nationalism and religiousism. As Bush is using Islam and Afghanistan to promote his militarism and nationalism agenda.
<B> I for one refuse to tolerate unprovoked attacks agaist civilians that are aimed at destroying infrastructure and economy, as well as government. Making this a religious issue is incompetant at best. The facts remain that almost every action taken by the US in the past ten years that has dealt with the middle east has been somewhat driven by our need for oil, and for our protection from being cut off(from the oil) by those who would do so.
Telling Americans to open their eyes to what's going on is a fairly stupid comment to make. Those who are in positions of power are probably the ones with the most knowledge of the subject. I may not like every decision made by our leaders, but I know that for the most part they are doing a good job of keeping my ass in one place and not blasted all over.
Twyl bleeds those colors for a reason.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This has always been a religious issue and nationalistic issue. It is the fanatics that has hijacked the whole world and made it their war and issue. We need more people to prevent the push towards militarism, nationalism, and religiousism. As in Germany in WWII, it was a religious and nationalistic issue. It was the fanatical Nazis that hijacked Germany lead them into a war. They used the jewish people as an escapegoat and to ignite nationalism and religiousism. As Bush is using Islam and Afghanistan to promote his militarism and nationalism agenda.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kasula:
<B> This has always been a religious issue and nationalistic issue. It is the fanatics that has hijacked the whole world and made it their war and issue. We need more people to prevent the push towards militarism, nationalism, and religiousism. As in Germany in WWII, it was a religious and nationalistic issue. It was the fanatical Nazis that hijacked Germany lead them into a war. They used the jewish people as an escapegoat and to ignite nationalism and religiousism. As Bush is using Islam and Afghanistan to promote his militarism and nationalism agenda.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh please spare me! You can't compare Nazi Germany to the US. President Bush is not promoting an agenda other that the one to get rid of terrorists. Pull your head out of your ass.
<B> This has always been a religious issue and nationalistic issue. It is the fanatics that has hijacked the whole world and made it their war and issue. We need more people to prevent the push towards militarism, nationalism, and religiousism. As in Germany in WWII, it was a religious and nationalistic issue. It was the fanatical Nazis that hijacked Germany lead them into a war. They used the jewish people as an escapegoat and to ignite nationalism and religiousism. As Bush is using Islam and Afghanistan to promote his militarism and nationalism agenda.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh please spare me! You can't compare Nazi Germany to the US. President Bush is not promoting an agenda other that the one to get rid of terrorists. Pull your head out of your ass.
I like the artical. Its always nice to hear somebody with an equaly extreme point of view as the patriots. Although I do believe a lot of it, I also believe that it was so colorfully written as to provoke anti-patriotic emotions. As much as I hate war and think that this Christian nation contradicts itself at every turn, the only logical position to take is war. Of course America probably has other agendas and is using this as the straw that broke the camel's back to go smite some major arab arse, but what can they do? Just because you have been waiting to go to war with said country, does it mean that you shouldn't when there is actually a good reason? No. So, in this case, I am not going to blame the higher-ups on this war even though they wanted it to happen. I still think it is barbaric to throw bombs in places that have maybe one terrorist and 1,000 civilians. That is what we train navy seals and other special ops. gropus for right? It seems that this attack on the US has given them the idea that an eye for an eye is the only justifiable means to an end. This is of course wrong. It was wrong for the Al Queida to blame and punish a whole nation for its minority's actions, just as it is wrong for us to punish them for their minority's actions. And this is what I think that artical was about.
P.S. Not to point fingers at anybody, but I was under the impression that the BBS was being moderated for flames, especially ones with direct and unsubtle insults. So, if a moderator is the first one to use profane language directed at another poster, what impression is that implementing on us? Just a heads up
P.P.S. Slavan, I don't agree with most of this country is standing for at most times...I dont agree with their actions most times, especially the corperate buyout of the american government also known as NAFTA that did wonderful things for our economey. However, I do like my limited freedom of speech, and I do limited freedom of religion. But, although we have these so called freedoms, I am awaiting the year that I can save the money to move to B.C. We are so appricative of our right to vote, but when has the populas majority vote actually won the presidential election? Seems to be a rather empty freedom, yes?
Thank you for your time, flame at will.
------------------
Kifle "Didn't there used to be some kind of invis cloak?" ButteryFingers
P.S. Not to point fingers at anybody, but I was under the impression that the BBS was being moderated for flames, especially ones with direct and unsubtle insults. So, if a moderator is the first one to use profane language directed at another poster, what impression is that implementing on us? Just a heads up
P.P.S. Slavan, I don't agree with most of this country is standing for at most times...I dont agree with their actions most times, especially the corperate buyout of the american government also known as NAFTA that did wonderful things for our economey
. However, I do like my limited freedom of speech, and I do limited freedom of religion. But, although we have these so called freedoms, I am awaiting the year that I can save the money to move to B.C. We are so appricative of our right to vote, but when has the populas majority vote actually won the presidential election? Seems to be a rather empty freedom, yes? Thank you for your time, flame at will.
------------------
Kifle "Didn't there used to be some kind of invis cloak?" ButteryFingers
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kasula:
<B> This has always been a religious issue and nationalistic issue. It is the fanatics that has hijacked the whole world and made it their war and issue. We need more people to prevent the push towards militarism, nationalism, and religiousism. As in Germany in WWII, it was a religious and nationalistic issue. It was the fanatical Nazis that hijacked Germany lead them into a war. They used the jewish people as an escapegoat and to ignite nationalism and religiousism. As Bush is using Islam and Afghanistan to promote his militarism and nationalism agenda.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bush has an agenda? Please educate yourself about america and americans before speaking. A president is elected to a 4 year term and can only serve 2 terms max if he's lucky. What possible agenda could you do in 4 years with the military. I actually laughed when I saw that. How about previous presidents who did previous actions? Not all muslems, what about bosnia(sp)? If this kind of thing where true Isreal would have not been kept in check for as long as they have. If this was a "islam" thing we'd just beef up Isreal and other countries and let them do the dirty work.
------------------
No matter where you go, there you are.
<B> This has always been a religious issue and nationalistic issue. It is the fanatics that has hijacked the whole world and made it their war and issue. We need more people to prevent the push towards militarism, nationalism, and religiousism. As in Germany in WWII, it was a religious and nationalistic issue. It was the fanatical Nazis that hijacked Germany lead them into a war. They used the jewish people as an escapegoat and to ignite nationalism and religiousism. As Bush is using Islam and Afghanistan to promote his militarism and nationalism agenda.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bush has an agenda? Please educate yourself about america and americans before speaking. A president is elected to a 4 year term and can only serve 2 terms max if he's lucky. What possible agenda could you do in 4 years with the military. I actually laughed when I saw that. How about previous presidents who did previous actions? Not all muslems, what about bosnia(sp)? If this kind of thing where true Isreal would have not been kept in check for as long as they have. If this was a "islam" thing we'd just beef up Isreal and other countries and let them do the dirty work.
------------------
No matter where you go, there you are.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tesil2:
[B] Oh please spare me! You can't compare Nazi Germany to the US. President Bush is not promoting an agenda other that the one to get rid of terrorists. Pull your head out of your ass.
Why cant i compare Nazi Germany and the Bush America? Both were led by idiots. Both blame a certain portion of society. Both used this to create a bigger military. Both have invade countries to topple their government. American wants to attack Iraq for their oil, Germany attacked Russia for their oil. Hrmmm i could go on and on...
[B] Oh please spare me! You can't compare Nazi Germany to the US. President Bush is not promoting an agenda other that the one to get rid of terrorists. Pull your head out of your ass.
Why cant i compare Nazi Germany and the Bush America? Both were led by idiots. Both blame a certain portion of society. Both used this to create a bigger military. Both have invade countries to topple their government. American wants to attack Iraq for their oil, Germany attacked Russia for their oil. Hrmmm i could go on and on...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B>
However, I do like my limited freedom of speech, and I do limited freedom of religion. But, although we have these so called freedoms, I am awaiting the year that I can save the money to move to B.C. We are so appricative of our right to vote, but when has the populas majority vote actually won the presidential election? Seems to be a rather empty freedom, yes?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm confused by these remarks. Are you saying there is another country that has more or better freedoms than we do? Which one? I don't believe anyone has ever said that our system was perfect, but it's the best that I know of, do you know of a better one? Ever see what happens to people in other countries who try to freely speak? Ever see those students get run over by tanks in china? Do you want the right to make your woman be totally covered and have the right to beat her if she isn't? Yup innocences died in the bombing that will always happen, people died when we agained our freedom and many times to protect it, civilians died but now they have a chance at freedom if they choose.
------------------
No matter where you go, there you are.
<B>
However, I do like my limited freedom of speech, and I do limited freedom of religion. But, although we have these so called freedoms, I am awaiting the year that I can save the money to move to B.C. We are so appricative of our right to vote, but when has the populas majority vote actually won the presidential election? Seems to be a rather empty freedom, yes?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm confused by these remarks. Are you saying there is another country that has more or better freedoms than we do? Which one? I don't believe anyone has ever said that our system was perfect, but it's the best that I know of, do you know of a better one? Ever see what happens to people in other countries who try to freely speak? Ever see those students get run over by tanks in china? Do you want the right to make your woman be totally covered and have the right to beat her if she isn't? Yup innocences died in the bombing that will always happen, people died when we agained our freedom and many times to protect it, civilians died but now they have a chance at freedom if they choose.
------------------
No matter where you go, there you are.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kasula:
<B>
Why cant i compare Nazi Germany and the Bush America? Both were led by idiots. Both blame a certain portion of society. Both used this to create a bigger military. Both have invade countries to topple their government. American wants to attack Iraq for their oil, Germany attacked Russia for their oil. Hrmmm i could go on and on...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wow that is really stretching it. If America wanted Iraq for their oil it would be ours and would have been before now. We were there when they invaded Kuate perfect time to "take" Iraq if that was the true agenda.
Please explain the bomb of Pearl harbor that brought the US into WW2.
So the germans where after oil, hhmm, so why did they invade Austria,Rhineland and Poland first? Ooohhh let me guess your government has edited your history?
------------------
No matter where you go, there you are.
<B>
Why cant i compare Nazi Germany and the Bush America? Both were led by idiots. Both blame a certain portion of society. Both used this to create a bigger military. Both have invade countries to topple their government. American wants to attack Iraq for their oil, Germany attacked Russia for their oil. Hrmmm i could go on and on...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wow that is really stretching it. If America wanted Iraq for their oil it would be ours and would have been before now. We were there when they invaded Kuate perfect time to "take" Iraq if that was the true agenda.
Please explain the bomb of Pearl harbor that brought the US into WW2.
So the germans where after oil, hhmm, so why did they invade Austria,Rhineland and Poland first? Ooohhh let me guess your government has edited your history?
------------------
No matter where you go, there you are.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kasula:
<B>[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tesil2:
[B] Oh please spare me! You can't compare Nazi Germany to the US. President Bush is not promoting an agenda other that the one to get rid of terrorists. Pull your head out of your ass.
Why cant i compare Nazi Germany and the Bush America? Both were led by idiots. Both blame a certain portion of society. Both used this to create a bigger military. Both have invade countries to topple their government. American wants to attack Iraq for their oil, Germany attacked Russia for their oil. Hrmmm i could go on and on...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who is Bush blaming? The terrorists and the countries that house them? Shame on him!
What bigger military? It's smaller now then it has been in years.
We want to attack Iraq for their oil? Oh really!? Who told you that?
You have obviously don't have a clue about anything.
Oh please go on and show more of your stupidity....please.
[This message has been edited by Tesil2 (edited 07-18-2002).]
<B>[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tesil2:
[B] Oh please spare me! You can't compare Nazi Germany to the US. President Bush is not promoting an agenda other that the one to get rid of terrorists. Pull your head out of your ass.
Why cant i compare Nazi Germany and the Bush America? Both were led by idiots. Both blame a certain portion of society. Both used this to create a bigger military. Both have invade countries to topple their government. American wants to attack Iraq for their oil, Germany attacked Russia for their oil. Hrmmm i could go on and on...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who is Bush blaming? The terrorists and the countries that house them? Shame on him!
What bigger military? It's smaller now then it has been in years.
We want to attack Iraq for their oil? Oh really!? Who told you that?
You have obviously don't have a clue about anything.
Oh please go on and show more of your stupidity....please.
[This message has been edited by Tesil2 (edited 07-18-2002).]
Why cant i compare Nazi Germany and the Bush America? Both were led by idiots. Both blame a certain portion of society. Both used this to create a bigger military. Both have invade countries to topple their government. American wants to attack Iraq for their oil, Germany attacked Russia for their oil. Hrmmm i could go on and on...
And Bush is an idiot....hrmmm...don't see you leading a country. Go figure.
And Bush is an idiot....hrmmm...don't see you leading a country. Go figure.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Deltin:
<B> Bush has an agenda? Please educate yourself about america and americans before speaking. A president is elected to a 4 year term and can only serve 2 terms max if he's lucky. What possible agenda could you do in 4 years with the military. I actually laughed when I saw that. How about previous presidents who did previous actions? Not all muslems, what about bosnia(sp)? If this kind of thing where true Isreal would have not been kept in check for as long as they have. If this was a "islam" thing we'd just beef up Isreal and other countries and let them do the dirty work.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I m very aware of how the american governmental system works. Lincoln used his terms as president to abolish slavery, and to win the Civil War. FDR used his three terms to pull USA out of depression and to win WW2. Alot can be done in a year, and much more in four.
<B> Bush has an agenda? Please educate yourself about america and americans before speaking. A president is elected to a 4 year term and can only serve 2 terms max if he's lucky. What possible agenda could you do in 4 years with the military. I actually laughed when I saw that. How about previous presidents who did previous actions? Not all muslems, what about bosnia(sp)? If this kind of thing where true Isreal would have not been kept in check for as long as they have. If this was a "islam" thing we'd just beef up Isreal and other countries and let them do the dirty work.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I m very aware of how the american governmental system works. Lincoln used his terms as president to abolish slavery, and to win the Civil War. FDR used his three terms to pull USA out of depression and to win WW2. Alot can be done in a year, and much more in four.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tesil2:
<B> Who is Bush blaming? The terrorists and the countries that house them? Shame on him!
What bigger military? It's smaller now then it has been in years.
We want to attack Iraq for their oil? Oh really!? Who told you that?
You have obviously don't have a clue about anything.
Oh please go on and show more of your stupidity....please.
[This message has been edited by Tesil2 (edited 07-18-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why do people resort to name calling and personal attacks in a debate of ideas? *shrug*
Actually, if Bush's plans goes the military and Homeland security department will get a huge increase in funding. We attacked Iraq because of alot of reason and one of them being oil. And America was about due to pick on another smaller country.
And lastly i do have a clue and i will continue with my stupidity...
<B> Who is Bush blaming? The terrorists and the countries that house them? Shame on him!
What bigger military? It's smaller now then it has been in years.
We want to attack Iraq for their oil? Oh really!? Who told you that?
You have obviously don't have a clue about anything.
Oh please go on and show more of your stupidity....please.
[This message has been edited by Tesil2 (edited 07-18-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why do people resort to name calling and personal attacks in a debate of ideas? *shrug*
Actually, if Bush's plans goes the military and Homeland security department will get a huge increase in funding. We attacked Iraq because of alot of reason and one of them being oil. And America was about due to pick on another smaller country.
And lastly i do have a clue and i will continue with my stupidity...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kasula:
<B> Why do people resort to name calling and personal attacks in a debate of ideas? *shrug*
Actually, if Bush's plans goes the military and Homeland security department will get a huge increase in funding. We attacked Iraq because of alot of reason and one of them being oil. And America was about due to pick on another smaller country.
And lastly i do have a clue and i will continue with my stupidity...</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who was name calling?
You answered none of my questions and proved me right.
Your own posts show your ignorance...we were "about due to pick on a smaller country"? Which country?
Homeland security CAN'T get a "huge increase in funding"...as it has just come into existence....military budget is hardly changed...please try again.
<B> Why do people resort to name calling and personal attacks in a debate of ideas? *shrug*
Actually, if Bush's plans goes the military and Homeland security department will get a huge increase in funding. We attacked Iraq because of alot of reason and one of them being oil. And America was about due to pick on another smaller country.
And lastly i do have a clue and i will continue with my stupidity...</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who was name calling?
You answered none of my questions and proved me right.
Your own posts show your ignorance...we were "about due to pick on a smaller country"? Which country?
Homeland security CAN'T get a "huge increase in funding"...as it has just come into existence....military budget is hardly changed...please try again.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tesil2:
<B> Who was name calling?
You answered none of my questions and proved me right.
Your own posts show your ignorance...we were "about due to pick on a smaller country"? Which country?
Homeland security CAN'T get a "huge increase in funding"...as it has just come into existence....military budget is hardly changed...please try again.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lets start with Korea, Vietnam, Libya, Sudan, Somalia, Panama, Grenada, Cuba, Lebonon, Cambodia, Serbia, Nicaragua, Iraq and Afghanistan. And thats just a list from the last 50 years.
<B> Who was name calling?
You answered none of my questions and proved me right.
Your own posts show your ignorance...we were "about due to pick on a smaller country"? Which country?
Homeland security CAN'T get a "huge increase in funding"...as it has just come into existence....military budget is hardly changed...please try again.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lets start with Korea, Vietnam, Libya, Sudan, Somalia, Panama, Grenada, Cuba, Lebonon, Cambodia, Serbia, Nicaragua, Iraq and Afghanistan. And thats just a list from the last 50 years.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kasula:
<B> Lets start with Korea, Vietnam, Libya, Sudan, Somalia, Panama, Grenada, Cuba, Lebonon, Cambodia, Serbia, Nicaragua, Iraq and Afghanistan. And thats just a list from the last 50 years.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
ROFLMAO!!! We "picked" on them!? You ARE stupid!
Korea, Vietnam and Cambodia - Hrmmm...funny seeing how Korean and Viet government's asked for our help...Cambodia...don't recall us "picking" on them.
Somalia - Wow! Us there to keep the tyrants from keeping the food meant for the people! What were we thinking?!
Grenada - Yea...we should just have let our citizens be hostages.....what was the US thinking?! Shame on us!
Cuba - Hrmmm...they put nukes in...they kill their own people...but the US is the bad guy? Yea...right.
Iraq - Holy hell! They invade another country...UN and rest of the world says "no way" so US and many other countries kick Iraq out of Kuwait....but "we" were picking on Iraq....yawn.
Afghanistan - Yea...we were picking on these guys too...kicked out a fanatical regime that the citizens DIDN'T want and who supported terrorism....
You lose.
<B> Lets start with Korea, Vietnam, Libya, Sudan, Somalia, Panama, Grenada, Cuba, Lebonon, Cambodia, Serbia, Nicaragua, Iraq and Afghanistan. And thats just a list from the last 50 years.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
ROFLMAO!!! We "picked" on them!? You ARE stupid!
Korea, Vietnam and Cambodia - Hrmmm...funny seeing how Korean and Viet government's asked for our help...Cambodia...don't recall us "picking" on them.
Somalia - Wow! Us there to keep the tyrants from keeping the food meant for the people! What were we thinking?!
Grenada - Yea...we should just have let our citizens be hostages.....what was the US thinking?! Shame on us!
Cuba - Hrmmm...they put nukes in...they kill their own people...but the US is the bad guy? Yea...right.
Iraq - Holy hell! They invade another country...UN and rest of the world says "no way" so US and many other countries kick Iraq out of Kuwait....but "we" were picking on Iraq....yawn.
Afghanistan - Yea...we were picking on these guys too...kicked out a fanatical regime that the citizens DIDN'T want and who supported terrorism....
You lose.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Deltin:
<B> I'm confused by these remarks. Are you saying there is another country that has more or better freedoms than we do? Which one? I don't believe anyone has ever said that our system was perfect, but it's the best that I know of, do you know of a better one? Ever see what happens to people in other countries who try to freely speak? Ever see those students get run over by tanks in china? Do you want the right to make your woman be totally covered and have the right to beat her if she isn't? Yup innocences died in the bombing that will always happen, people died when we agained our freedom and many times to protect it, civilians died but now they have a chance at freedom if they choose.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Heh, you are right, you were obviously confused by my remarks. I never once said that any other country has succeeded in giving anybody full freedom of anything. I never said that any one country was better. My opinion is that other countries have succeeded in giving its citizens one thing over another. Yes, one country doesn't allow freedom of such and such, but it will allow nudity on television. Ever country is different in their own right, and that is what I am saying. America does not do it for me, it is good all around, but there are freedoms i can do without. With this, there are also other freedoms that are given to the citizens here but aren't really given, or, in retrospect, don't mean a damn think when you break it down to brass tacks.
Of all the instances you gave, not one of those countries is among the more refined. China, hardly able to be considered anyplace one would want to move. Bosnia, Pakastan, anywhere in the middle east. Yes, these are all third world countries and or communistic/facist countries. You failed to mention the countries like france, italy, canada, norway, sweden, belgum(sp?), etc... These countries also give their citizens freedoms which the allmighty U.S.A. does not. Some people who want to be able to smoke weed and what not would find amsterdam a better place to live based on the freedoms alloted to the citizens there. America is the best in your eyes because of the freedoms you would rather have. Does France not give its citizens the freedom of religion? Does Italy not give its artists freedom of expression? We have the freedom of speech, yes? Then why would you be jailed for even joking about killing the president? Why would you be jailed about saying this white piece of blotter paper is acid, when, in fact, it is not and the police know it? These are both instances where the citizen is stripped of their freedom of speech. What about tipper gore and her christan moral induced cencorship binge? That is not freedom is it? To have your piece of art altered so it would fit the christian model of art? If people didn't want to hear the word "Fuck", they didnt have to purchase the album. If the parents dont want their kids to listen to the songs, parent your kids better...
So, you see, it is only as good as your perception will make it. If you feel you have every freedom you need to be happy, then america is the right system for you to live in. But, if you are like me and can see all of these false freedoms, or you think that you could give up this one freedom for another which is given in another country, that country would be the most logical place for you to live and maximize your happiness.
------------------
Kifle "Didn't there used to be some kind of invis cloak?" ButteryFingers
<B> I'm confused by these remarks. Are you saying there is another country that has more or better freedoms than we do? Which one? I don't believe anyone has ever said that our system was perfect, but it's the best that I know of, do you know of a better one? Ever see what happens to people in other countries who try to freely speak? Ever see those students get run over by tanks in china? Do you want the right to make your woman be totally covered and have the right to beat her if she isn't? Yup innocences died in the bombing that will always happen, people died when we agained our freedom and many times to protect it, civilians died but now they have a chance at freedom if they choose.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Heh, you are right, you were obviously confused by my remarks. I never once said that any other country has succeeded in giving anybody full freedom of anything. I never said that any one country was better. My opinion is that other countries have succeeded in giving its citizens one thing over another. Yes, one country doesn't allow freedom of such and such, but it will allow nudity on television. Ever country is different in their own right, and that is what I am saying. America does not do it for me, it is good all around, but there are freedoms i can do without. With this, there are also other freedoms that are given to the citizens here but aren't really given, or, in retrospect, don't mean a damn think when you break it down to brass tacks.
Of all the instances you gave, not one of those countries is among the more refined. China, hardly able to be considered anyplace one would want to move. Bosnia, Pakastan, anywhere in the middle east. Yes, these are all third world countries and or communistic/facist countries. You failed to mention the countries like france, italy, canada, norway, sweden, belgum(sp?), etc... These countries also give their citizens freedoms which the allmighty U.S.A. does not. Some people who want to be able to smoke weed and what not would find amsterdam a better place to live based on the freedoms alloted to the citizens there. America is the best in your eyes because of the freedoms you would rather have. Does France not give its citizens the freedom of religion? Does Italy not give its artists freedom of expression? We have the freedom of speech, yes? Then why would you be jailed for even joking about killing the president? Why would you be jailed about saying this white piece of blotter paper is acid, when, in fact, it is not and the police know it? These are both instances where the citizen is stripped of their freedom of speech. What about tipper gore and her christan moral induced cencorship binge? That is not freedom is it? To have your piece of art altered so it would fit the christian model of art? If people didn't want to hear the word "Fuck", they didnt have to purchase the album. If the parents dont want their kids to listen to the songs, parent your kids better...
So, you see, it is only as good as your perception will make it. If you feel you have every freedom you need to be happy, then america is the right system for you to live in. But, if you are like me and can see all of these false freedoms, or you think that you could give up this one freedom for another which is given in another country, that country would be the most logical place for you to live and maximize your happiness.
------------------
Kifle "Didn't there used to be some kind of invis cloak?" ButteryFingers
-
Baikalisan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 314
- Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2001 5:01 am
- Contact:
I feel the urge to reply to this post even tho i normally stay out of them.
I, like millions of others, cried the morning of Sept.11, for those hurt, for those lost, for their families, and for the realization of what was to come.
I sat there in disbelief and watched people cheer because news had come that 1000's of people were dead and dying. I cried for the people cheering, how could they take pleasure in the deaths of so many. The children dancing in the street cheering sickened me and saddened my heart forever.
The United States of America is far from innocent. Over many wars we have made mistakes and innocent people have been killed for it, such is war. There is no country who can say they have not encountered the same things and dealt with them the same way as the US, and in some cases the situations were dealt with in a much more severe way. There is no going back. We cannot change what has happened. But we can change what is to come.
OBL stepped over a line. He sent people here with the intent to slaughter thousands of people. It was not during a war. We were not fighting. He sent them here to kill people because he disagreed with the way we do things.
If i had my way, we would have blown them off the face of the earth well before now. George W. Bush should NOT of waited to find out where people were and what their next plan was going to be. When he stood before the world and said that America would defend herself and that whoever had done this would pay, and the ppl harboring them would pay.. as God as my witness i wish he would have followed through with those statments...
Just have a couple more things to say here...
Im proud to be an American. I have the freedom to do, say, feel, wear, write, laugh, love, dislike, etc.... I would not trade my freedom for anything in this world.
Can you say the same thing?
------------------
Baikalisan Terrorforge- Valsharess Elg'Caress - Orbdrin D'oloth
I, like millions of others, cried the morning of Sept.11, for those hurt, for those lost, for their families, and for the realization of what was to come.
I sat there in disbelief and watched people cheer because news had come that 1000's of people were dead and dying. I cried for the people cheering, how could they take pleasure in the deaths of so many. The children dancing in the street cheering sickened me and saddened my heart forever.
The United States of America is far from innocent. Over many wars we have made mistakes and innocent people have been killed for it, such is war. There is no country who can say they have not encountered the same things and dealt with them the same way as the US, and in some cases the situations were dealt with in a much more severe way. There is no going back. We cannot change what has happened. But we can change what is to come.
OBL stepped over a line. He sent people here with the intent to slaughter thousands of people. It was not during a war. We were not fighting. He sent them here to kill people because he disagreed with the way we do things.
If i had my way, we would have blown them off the face of the earth well before now. George W. Bush should NOT of waited to find out where people were and what their next plan was going to be. When he stood before the world and said that America would defend herself and that whoever had done this would pay, and the ppl harboring them would pay.. as God as my witness i wish he would have followed through with those statments...
Just have a couple more things to say here...
Im proud to be an American. I have the freedom to do, say, feel, wear, write, laugh, love, dislike, etc.... I would not trade my freedom for anything in this world.
Can you say the same thing?
------------------
Baikalisan Terrorforge- Valsharess Elg'Caress - Orbdrin D'oloth
Return to “S3 General Discussion Archive”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 37 guests