food for (American) thought

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Marix
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Postby Marix » Fri Jul 19, 2002 5:09 am

This debate can be summed up in a few short sentences... Side 1: We're right, they're wrong! Side 2: We're right, they're wrong! Side 3: etc... The only absolute in this life is that the truth you hold so near and dear to your heart depends greatly upon your own point of view. You can't convince others you're right simply because it's what you believe... and that goes both ways. The best you can do is support your view with reasons and try to listen to the other side without it coming to blows. If you can't do that... get off the computer go outside and take a breath.

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Kybrell
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Postby Kybrell » Fri Jul 19, 2002 5:20 am

Well my statement is going to be right to the point. My husband is currently in the US Navy. He has been gone probably 8 months of the last year to defend the same people that want to complain about the US being in Bin Laden Land. These men and women fight every day to keep America safe. They protect and serve and probably make it so alot of you sleep safely at night. That includes you all in countries other then the US? I mean no disrespect when I say this but the fact remains that if most of the other countries faced some sort of dilemna who would they call?
I think the original post was totally 1 sided. I don't feel like the US is a bunch of terrorists in different uniforms. I think there should be some sort of punishment to the people who claimed all those lives of the people that needlessly died in 9/11. Picture if it was your family on one of those planes. Would you demand retaliation? Ask yourself that Cherzra. If it was your wife or child (God forbid)mother sister or brother.. Would you then feel we are terrorists?
I mean what's the old saying an eye for an eye? Well I am not a violent person and the way things are happening in the world scares me half to death. They day of 9/11 I worried if tomorrow would allow my children to grow up and learn to live right.
I am tired and prolly not making any sense and may repost all this sensibly tomorrow..
Just ask yourself if it ever happened to you... if it was your loved one out there fighting.... if it was your child on that plane.... Then and only then judge..


Noliez
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Postby Wobb » Fri Jul 19, 2002 5:35 am

The one thing I wonder is,

why post this...and why here? To what end?


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Postby Daz » Fri Jul 19, 2002 9:20 am

Personally - I didn't give two shits about people who died on 9/11. Sucks to be them and their family and all - but thats life. What bothers me is that America lets people get away with talking shit on us, and even doing things like that. Anyone ever see Swordfish? Now the ending of THAT movie brought tears to my eyes. Boy, what would this world be like if America really decided we wanted to rule the world. I seriously bet that every country in this world has its own head stuck so far up its political ass that if we marched on every country one by one we'd have them all before the first country thought "maybe we shouldn't let them do that."

I mean shit . . . do you people realize that our military has body army that can stand up to armor piercing shells like it was a spitball? That we have the firepower to completely destroy a country overnight if we felt the need? That we maintain sole control over the GPS? My thoughts are we flip a coin. Heads - we kill everyone on the east half of the middle east. Tails - we kill the other half. After we evacuate anyone who kisses our ass.

Better yet - lets dump the 55,000 gallons of toxic waste currently being shipped to Nevada in the middle of their holy land! 3 legged suicide bombers! Hot Damn!

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Postby Ambar » Fri Jul 19, 2002 10:02 am

im gonna respond to this at work when more of my fellow Sailors and Marines can read it

(just started working with Marines ... what a different breed!!)


one comment:

Does anyone have a CLUE as to what military presence is???

bleh i just remembered i won't see my co-workers for a week cause i'm gonna be in school .. bleh

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Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Fri Jul 19, 2002 12:49 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Baikalisan:

Im proud to be an American. I have the freedom to do,

Unless it is against the law of coarse Image

say,

Unless it harbors anything that is not appropriate for a specific audience, harbors any inclination of violence towards the country and its leaders, has anything to do with most illegal activities, or has anything to do with a racist or anti-gay point of view because, hey, hate crimes are more serious than other crimes Image


feel,

only because nobody can every tell what you really feel...it would be scarey if they could.

wear,

Been to school lately? What about to not wear? Can't do that. In some places of work you are required to wear a certain uniform of clothing or a certain standard. What happens when you try to use your freedom there? You get the can...good thing you have that freedom huh Image


write,

Same as the afore mentioned limitations to freedom of speech.

laugh, love, dislike, etc.... I would not trade my freedom for anything in this world.

I would trade my freedoms for a ticket to Canada and a cheeseburger!

Can you say the same thing?

</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



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Zoldren
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Postby Zoldren » Fri Jul 19, 2002 12:52 pm

1) the binladin family made its money in construction more so than oil as well as other business ventures so to say with out the oil blahblah blah.....

2) saying people in the WORLD TRADE TOWERS were working for american economic......... is bull people from THE WORLD died there not just americans

3) tolernace LAUGH, some religions teach NO tolorence. we all know that leads to war no talking...some religions with that policy isn't just talking about other religions. its also talking about cultures. hence i would like to know when did a few thousand year old religon learn to hate a few hundred year old country...

4) ignorance is not bliss, ignorance is painful to those who have to listen to it....

please do more than just listen to 1 radio/tv station b4 you think you have an opinion, try to do some research on your own... i have been reading for over a year to base my opinions what have you been doing to form yours other than your natural hate and the uneducated opinions you where raised with.

please flame threw
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Postby Kyos » Fri Jul 19, 2002 12:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
>But one thing is for sure, usa is not in the >middle east because of anything else than >their own profit.


Miax> Your a fucking idiot if you think that.. (pardon the language ladies) .. but we were Not militarily taking Any action in the middle east prior to this attack. Indeed, we have been spending HUGE amounts of time and money in trying to Stop the war between the Isralies and Palastinians, create Peace in the middle east, and help to build a world we can All live in together.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rofl, i thought this guy were THE ONE talking about reducing flames on the bbs...

Not taking any military action? HAH.

And you, sir, are a retarded american idiot too. :P
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Postby Rausrh » Fri Jul 19, 2002 1:55 pm

Kasula,
"When has killing more people solved any problem?"
As sad as it is, killing people has solved more problems in human history than all other methods combined. Remember that just because a problem is solved dosen't mean you have to like the solution.

"To all the god fearing American that believe in the bible, how can you allow yourselves to believe in some of the things?! Last i remember of the bible, it teachs tolerance, love and peace. Where is the tolerance, where is the love and most importantly where is the peace? Yes, you might say that the terrorist started it, than i ask you to read the bible again. What does it say, it says to turn the other cheek."

While I have never feared my God, I do believe that the bible was written/compilied by religious politicians. The bible tesches tolerance, love and peace, but it also teaches intolerance, violence and murder. It has some good stories in it, but it is a little too vague to be a religious text. For instance in this case I have decided to ignore the 'turn the other cheek' part of the bible and use the 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' part.




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Postby Deltin » Fri Jul 19, 2002 2:20 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B>
say,

Unless it harbors anything that is not appropriate for a specific audience, harbors any inclination of violence towards the country and its leaders, has anything to do with most illegal activities, or has anything to do with a racist or anti-gay point of view because, hey, hate crimes are more serious than other crimes

Been to school lately? What about to not wear? Can't do that. In some places of work you are required to wear a certain uniform of clothing or a certain standard. What happens when you try to use your freedom there? You get the can...good thing you have that freedom huh
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By your posts I have concluded you do not live in the United States. Most jobs are in private companies, their rules are their own and not government regulated, unless it's for a safety issue. Last I knew smoking pot was legal in Alaska and maybe Nevada, it's state laws that make it illegal. If the best you can come up with is freedom to do drugs that you have a pretty sad life. There ARE hate groups all over the place. Never seen the press cover a K.K.K. march? Yup even they have freedom to hate and do it publicaly.
You still have not answered the question as to what freedoms to other countries have that we do not, other than the "right" to use drugs.



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Kybrell
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Postby Kybrell » Fri Jul 19, 2002 2:58 pm

Daz you are a dam idiot! Maybe you should of been in those towers that day. Or someone close to you? It's people like you that make me wonder why the military protect you. Your uneducated assumptions make me want to spit in your face. You're probably some little 20 year old asshole that does nothing but sit in front of a computer all day and do NOTHING but give your dumbass comments about things you obviously know nothing about.
Part of Kifle's post annoyed me too. Yes there are places that schools are requiring uniforms. 67% of those schools are schools in high crime areas where other dumbasses are killing each other over a pair of tennis shoes.
So all of you sit there with your stupid comments. Everyone thinks all the news is correct? Nope. Agree Zoldren.
Ignorance.
I can't stand it.
Noliez
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Postby Todrael » Fri Jul 19, 2002 3:38 pm

I never post in political threads. I hate politics more than I hate dragons. I just have a quote that I liked:

"Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins."

This can be applied to many of the rights people are saying we're trampling on.

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Ambar
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Postby Ambar » Fri Jul 19, 2002 5:01 pm

Well, well, well ... another thread about politics and the US rearing it's ugly head, sticking it's nose where it doesn't belong

someone wrote a comment about the fact we were already in the middle east when the events of 9/11 unfurled ...

well it is called military presence ... even in peacetime we have to show a presence ... not really a threat ... but a hey we are here don't try anything stupid ...

unrelated, perhaps ... there was a Robin Williams stand-up show on HBO which has ben playing recently ... one of the skits involved some smaller country dissin the US .. hey you dont belong here , etc ... then a bigger country invaded them and they welcomed the US with open arms .. prolly gotta watch the show to understand what i mean...

No matter what we say, on either side of the fence, facts or fiction... we will not change the opinions of those that oppose us .. why the hell do we even bother arguing about it???

On a side note .. I totally agree with Noliez .. Daz you are an idiot .. nothing you can ever say will ever be taken seriously ... to not feel pity for the loss of thousands?? Would you be so uncaring if it was your mother/sister/grandmother/girlfriend who was in those towers on that fateful day?? You need to be put in a firing line so the relatives of those innocent people can put out of OUR misery ...Please go crawl back under that rock you live in and keep your diseased mind away from the rest of us ...

-Player X tells you 'heard Daz went evil ... 3njoy!' (Apple u ass :P)

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Postby Vigis » Fri Jul 19, 2002 5:15 pm

Okay, all through this post I have been thinking about what I wanted to say. But most things have already been said. I end my post now because my fingers are already trying to flame a couple of people that I am considering morons and I have never posted a flame on this board.

I end with one simple fact: I am an American and I am proud to be so. If I had half the chance I would gladly be risking (or giving) my life in order to protect our freedoms and to make those murdering mofos pay for what they have done. Call me ignorant, but I believe in justice.

Vigis
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Postby Jegzed » Fri Jul 19, 2002 5:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ambar:
well it is called military presence ... even in peacetime we have to show a presence ... not really a threat ... but a hey we are here don't try anything stupid ... </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The thing is.. For those lunatics, its a mortal insult with HEATHENS and BLASPHEMERS on their HOLY soil..



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Deltin
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Postby Deltin » Fri Jul 19, 2002 5:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B> The thing is.. For those lunatics, its a mortal insult with HEATHENS and BLASPHEMERS on their HOLY soil..

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is true, which for us in free countries is difficult to understand. I would bet that the USA has every religeon on it's soil, not to mention every race or darn close to it, how many other countries can say that?

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Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Fri Jul 19, 2002 5:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Deltin:
<B> By your posts I have concluded you do not live in the United States. Most jobs are in private companies, their rules are their own and not government regulated, unless it's for a safety issue. Last I knew smoking pot was legal in Alaska and maybe Nevada, it's state laws that make it illegal. If the best you can come up with is freedom to do drugs that you have a pretty sad life. There ARE hate groups all over the place. Never seen the press cover a K.K.K. march? Yup even they have freedom to hate and do it publicaly.
You still have not answered the question as to what freedoms to other countries have that we do not, other than the "right" to use drugs.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once again your assumption is wrong, I do live in the USA. As far as the public companys are concerned, that, in fact, does take away your right to wear what you want for that 8 hours or so. If you walk into your place of employment in shorts and a band t-shirt when that company demands that you wear a suit and tie, you will be fired. It is law that you cannot fire somebody based one race/religion/color, but they can fire you even though it is your right, your freedom to wear what you want...sounds like a half-ass/empty freedom IMO. Schools are government funded and ran. Why couldnt I wear my Black Sabbath T-shirt that has a pentagram on it? Why couldnt my friends wear their shirts with a pot leaf on it? Once again our freedoms of expression were taken away from us.

It is not state laws that make the use of drugs illegal it is federal law. It is the state that controls the punishment/sentancing of those criminals. Last time I checked, states can not override federal law. The reason why marajuana is legal in said states is because of medical reasons. Federal law prohibits drug use for recreational perposes, therefor the state does not override the federal law, but adds an exception because of a loophole.

And how does my choice of examples have any baring on how sad or happy my existance is? In fact, I am happy most of the time. Now, if I were to say that I was planning on leaving the US or that the reason I dont live in or hate the US is because of their conservative veiws on marajuana, then and only then would that statement possibly hold true. If you could had average skills of reading comprehention you would have not made two assanine assumptions and you would not have made such a sloppy flame.

About the KKK...Yes they are allowed to hold parades and speeches, but what happens when a white man assaults a black man? The white man is then sentanced based on hate crime laws which are horribly worse than the regular assault laws. Hate crimes are then turned to federal court because they are federal laws. What makes this any more significant than another assault including a white and a white? Not a damn thing, it was launched by hate in each incident. Of course, not all crimes with the nature of white/black are considered hate crimes, but the thing that usually strenghthens the case against the instigator is the comments he has made prior to, during, or after the incident. So, basically, you can say what you want, but you will be punished more harshly based on what you said. True you are free in to say what you want in this instance, but what good is a freedom when it will burn you 10x worse in the end because you used it. That is basically like saying....look here fat boy. I will give you this chocolate cake and this angelfood cake, but if you eat the chocolate cake, i will gut you and take it back out...but you ARE entiteld the right to eat it. In this case, the fat kid is given a right to chose which cake, but the person giving the right is telling him that if he choses to wield his right, he will be punished, not by law, but in some other way.

Sure i can talk all the smack i want about stupid hillbillies, call them cracker and white bread, and if I beat a white man i will be punished by state laws. If I were to throw around the N word and then assaulted a black man, i would be punished under the harsher federal laws. Yeah, you can say what i want and you cant get arrested for it, but you will be punished in some way for excersizing your full right Image

Rights/freedoms/misc. benefits alloted by other countries that the US doesn't.

Prostitution
Drugs
Public intoxication
No speed limits
Free healthcare
No drinking age
No statitory rape laws
etc...

If somebody else knows anymore feel free to add to the list, I am not a buff on alien country laws.

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Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Fri Jul 19, 2002 6:04 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B> The thing is.. For those lunatics, its a mortal insult with HEATHENS and BLASPHEMERS on their HOLY soil..

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. Another problem with the wonder of military presence. When you were 13/14 would you be a bit insulted if your parents still had a babysitter for you when they went out for a few hourse? I know I would have. It is a bit of an insult when you know, think you know, or want to prove or do something on your own and big brother comes over and says you need to be watched and babysat.

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Postby Deltin » Fri Jul 19, 2002 6:13 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B> If you walk into your place of employment in shorts and a band t-shirt when that company demands that you wear a suit and tie, you will be fired. It is law that you cannot fire somebody based one race/religion/color, but they can fire you even though it is your right, your freedom to wear what you want...sounds like a half-ass/empty freedom IMO. Schools are government funded and ran. Why couldnt I wear my Black Sabbath T-shirt that has a pentagram on it? Why couldnt my friends wear their shirts with a pot leaf on it? Once again our freedoms of expression were taken away from us.

Rights/freedoms/misc. benefits alloted by other countries that the US doesn't.

Prostitution
Drugs
Public intoxication
No speed limits
Free healthcare
No drinking age
No statitory rape laws
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Prostitution is legal in Nevada. Free healthcare is a right? interesting. If I own a business and you think you have the right to wear what you want, then why shouldn't I have the right to fire you? So these freedoms as you call them only apply to certain people? The so called rights you talk about infringe on other peoples rights.
Why shouldn't I have the "right" not to see some one publicly intoxicated? So lets take it a step further, why don't I have the right to burn your house down? That would be true freedom after all wouldn't it? There is no perfect system, never will be, but it lot's of cases these things benefit the majority, it isn't fare to everyone, there's no way it could be, but it's the best we have.
I'm sorry if you took my challeges to your comments as flames, I don't believe I called you stupid or anything like that, I didn't realize you where so thin skined and defensive.

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[This message has been edited by Deltin (edited 07-19-2002).]
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 19, 2002 6:22 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B> Yup. Another problem with the wonder of military presence. When you were 13/14 would you be a bit insulted if your parents still had a babysitter for you when they went out for a few hourse? I know I would have. It is a bit of an insult when you know, think you know, or want to prove or do something on your own and big brother comes over and says you need to be watched and babysat.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a 13 year old, I would have been upset too. As an adult, I can see what a self-absorbed little prick I was when I was 13.

So apparently the entire middle east is the equivalent of a spoiled 13 year old. Great.

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Postby rylan » Fri Jul 19, 2002 6:23 pm

just a quite comment.. free healthcare is an oxymoron.
I'm not gonna get into that debate tho :P
Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Jul 19, 2002 6:28 pm

Free healthcare? Ask someone how much they pay in taxes for this "free" healthcare.

I remember someone said "You want government controlled healthcare? Look at gov't housing."
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Postby Kifle » Fri Jul 19, 2002 6:31 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Deltin:
<B> Prostitution is legal in Nevada. Free healthcare is a right? interesting. If I own a business and you think you have the right to wear what you want, then why shouldn't I have the right to fire you? So these freedoms as you call them only apply to certain people? The so called rights you talk about infringe on other peoples rights.
Why shouldn't I have the "right" not to see some one publicly intoxicated? So lets take it a step further, why don't I have the right to burn your house down? That would be true freedom after all wouldn't it? There is no perfect system, never will be, but it lot's of cases these things benefit the majority, it isn't fare to everyone, there's no way it could be, but it's the best we have.
I'm sorry if you took my challeges to your comments as flames, I don't believe I called you stupid or anything like that, I didn't realize you where so thin skined and defensive.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good lord Deltin. Would you please make it a minimum requirement for yourself to read my posts at least twice, maybe three times before you reply? I never said free healthcare was a right...that would be one of those things listed under the Misc. benefits alloted by country X.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying Deltin. That company does have the right to fire me, so I am being punished for excersizing my Federal right. Like I said, you can do what you want, but it will haunt you. When you read my post you will understand that I am not argueing whether we have these rights or not, i am argueing that they are empty and worthless given the conditions and laws governing these said rights. I can say Nigger and i wont be arrested for it, but the moderators of this BBS can easily kick me off and possibly delete my character. Why can they kick me off? I was just using my god given right of speech protected by the constitution of the united states of facism err america. I am told that i will not be punished for speaking my mind or using the terms i wish to use, but in retrospect, you can and will still be punished for it. These are freedoms which should have a tag line, "Use with extreme caution" or "Use at your own risk". And that, my friend, is not freedom.

P.S. I apologize if any slang terms within this post offended anybody. I am not a racist, never have been, never will be.



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Postby Deltin » Fri Jul 19, 2002 6:33 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kiaransalee:
<B>Free healthcare? Ask someone how much they pay in taxes for this "free" healthcare.

I remember someone said "You want government controlled healthcare? Look at gov't housing."</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said.(cheer) People often mistake rights with privledges, driving a car in not a "right" therefor no freedom of speed. Last I knew you had to purchase cars, rights you are born with cars you are not.


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Postby Kifle » Fri Jul 19, 2002 6:36 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kiaransalee:
<B>Free healthcare? Ask someone how much they pay in taxes for this "free" healthcare.

I remember someone said "You want government controlled healthcare? Look at gov't housing."</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Tell that to the people that have to pay an arm and a leg for their doctors visits because their place of employment does not offer health insurance. Or the person that takes their child to the hospital which wont admit the child because of lack of insurance.

Look at the people living in those government houses dear, it is much better than what they could afford normally. I know a few that have lived in these houses and i will tell you that they were given a break and can now afford a decent appartment.

I live in a house i bought with a government loan. Of coarse i pay taxes to recieve this loan, but i would rather pay 15% tax than pull $13,000 out of my ass.

Healthcare is better than no healthcare. Housing is better than no housing.
Its all plain and simple logic.
The term free healthcare is misleading but very good none the less.


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"Kill them all, God will know his own." -Domingo de Guzman, A.K.A Saint Dominic
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Postby Kifle » Fri Jul 19, 2002 6:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Deltin:
<B> Well said.(cheer) People often mistake rights with privledges, driving a car in not a "right" therefor no freedom of speed. Last I knew you had to purchase cars, rights you are born with cars you are not.


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yet again deltin fails to use his skills of reading comprehension and jumps on the bandwagon of the first person to share a view of his whether he understands it or not.
Using common sense you would have deduced that not having a speed limit would have also fallen under the misc. benefits of my list. *sigh*

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"Kill them all, God will know his own." -Domingo de Guzman, A.K.A Saint Dominic
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Postby Jegzed » Fri Jul 19, 2002 6:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kiaransalee:
[B]Free healthcare? Ask someone how much they pay in taxes for this "free" healthcare.
[B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I pay about 32% in taxes, and have free healthcare, living in a country with about the same lifestandard as USA.

Americans probably pay alot less total for taxes, university studies and health insurance, but I know that friends who don't have the same well paying job as I do, will get first class health care anyway.



------------------
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B> Good lord Deltin. Would you please make it a minimum requirement for yourself to read my posts at least twice, maybe three times before you reply? I never said free healthcare was a right...that would be one of those things listed under the Misc. benefits alloted by country X.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying Deltin. That company does have the right to fire me, so I am being punished for excersizing my Federal right. Like I said, you can do what you want, but it will haunt you. When you read my post you will understand that I am not argueing whether we have these rights or not, i am argueing that they are empty and worthless given the conditions and laws governing these said rights. I can say Nigger and i wont be arrested for it, but the moderators of this BBS can easily kick me off and possibly delete my character. Why can they kick me off? I was just using my god given right of speech protected by the constitution of the united states of facism err america. I am told that i will not be punished for speaking my mind or using the terms i wish to use, but in retrospect, you can and will still be punished for it. These are freedoms which should have a tag line, "Use with extreme caution" or "Use at your own risk". And that, my friend, is not freedom.

P.S. I apologize if any slang terms within this post offended anybody. I am not a racist, never have been, never will be.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any freedom should be used with caution, or at your own risk. In fact, if people would stop and think things through before doing them there would be no need for any law at all.

For instance, you mentioned you can smoke pot in some European countries as a right. Well, is it safe to just go and exercise this right willy nilly? Marijuana use has consequences on the body and the mind, even if they aren't necessarily as strong as the side effects of other drugs.

No speed limits as well, you don't need to use caution when driving 100mph? Please let me know when you go for a drive then, I want to pull over and watch the show... heh. I saw a guy launch his car into the air and hit a light pole before landing a couple weeks ago, because he thought he had the right to drive incautiously without even getting a license first.

There is always a price to pay Kifle, and everything you do should be done with extreme caution. If people thought everything through thoroughly before doing it, there would be little or no need for laws of any kind.

But I guess if you plan on driving 100mph without any caution, you might as well enjoy all the pot you want... and don't bother using protection with those prostitutes. It won't really matter after the explosion. Image

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Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.
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Postby Deltin » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B> yet again deltin fails to use his skills of reading comprehension and jumps on the bandwagon of the first person to share a view of his whether he understands it or not.
Using common sense you would have deduced that not having a speed limit would have also fallen under the misc. benefits of my list. *sigh*

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well benefits and rights are comparing apples and oranges, so if you expect anyone to make sense of what you are trying to say they'd have to be stoned. Your "list" is things that you would like and who cares what effect it has on society or others rights. There are people even more radical than youself. If you don't like something try and change it, one little woman did it by sitting in the front of the bus.
Personally pot smoking it less harmful than getting totally drunk, I can speak of this from experience. You have pointed out a lot of flaws and no solutions. Educate youself so you can understand why things are the way they are, you don't have to agree, but you should understand the logic behind them.

You make me laugh, you want the right to wear what you want, but the person who owns the business doesn't have the right to run it how they see fit. So your real complaint is that you can't do drugs and screw little girls, sorry I don't feel sorry for you.
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No matter where you go, there you are.

[This message has been edited by Deltin (edited 07-19-2002).]
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:34 pm

Maybe this is off-topic... but I would much rather have laws like speed limits in place, than none, especially on heavily traveled roads. Those laws are there to help protect me from people who think they have the right, or benefit, or privilege, or whatever to drive however they may please at any cost, even if that cost be the lives of me or my children.

Laws protect the rights of individuals, sometimes at the cost of the majority. Laws protect the rights of the majority from the stupidity of the individuals. No, it's not always perfect, but that's because we're all still human.
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Postby Deltin » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
<B>Maybe this is off-topic... but I would much rather have laws like speed limits in place, than none, especially on heavily traveled roads. Those laws are there to help protect me from people who think they have the right, or benefit, or privilege, or whatever to drive however they may please at any cost, even if that cost be the lives of me or my children.

Laws protect the rights of individuals, sometimes at the cost of the majority. Laws protect the rights of the majority from the stupidity of the individuals. No, it's not always perfect, but that's because we're all still human.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All I can say is Excellent, you summed up what I've been trying to say. Thank you. This will be my last post on this matter.


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Postby Rausrh » Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:09 pm

Kifle,
Could you post which countries have these rights/freedoms/misc. benefits that the US does not?

Prostitution - Legal in Nevada
Drugs - Legal CA(limited)
Public intoxication - You can be as drunk as you want until you start causing problems for other people or endanger yourself
No speed limits - WY
Free healthcare - Medicare
No drinking age - Ok Not in the US
No statitory rape laws - These vary by state, but if you are upset that you cannot have sex with anyone younger than 14 you're just sick.


etc...

------------------
Rausrh licks you.
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Postby sok » Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:53 pm

i stopped reading after about the 5th post cust i think we had this post a while back didn't we? anyways just wanted my name in wat will be a long thread.

sok was here
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Postby Daz » Fri Jul 19, 2002 9:07 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kybrell:
<B>Daz you are a dam idiot! Maybe you should of been in those towers that day. Or someone close to you? It's people like you that make me wonder why the military protect you. Your uneducated assumptions make me want to spit in your face. You're probably some little 20 year old asshole that does nothing but sit in front of a computer all day and do NOTHING but give your dumbass comments about things you obviously know nothing about.
Part of Kifle's post annoyed me too. Yes there are places that schools are requiring uniforms. 67% of those schools are schools in high crime areas where other dumbasses are killing each other over a pair of tennis shoes.
So all of you sit there with your stupid comments. Everyone thinks all the news is correct? Nope. Agree Zoldren.
Ignorance.
I can't stand it.
Noliez</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


how cute
spitting on me is assault
i wish you could too, since
spitting on me is assault, and
would make my retaliation self-defense
and not a crime. lol. you give a shit.
thats funny.


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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
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Postby Zagaz » Fri Jul 19, 2002 9:18 pm

If this keeps up, it will out strip Turxx's The Most Responses Post, damn!

Must to post
Must to post......

Sorry to interrupt, flame on!!

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Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.
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Postby Kifle » Fri Jul 19, 2002 10:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Deltin:
<B> well benefits and rights are comparing apples and oranges, so if you expect anyone to make sense of what you are trying to say they'd have to be stoned. Your "list" is things that you would like and who cares what effect it has on society or others rights. There are people even more radical than youself. If you don't like something try and change it, one little woman did it by sitting in the front of the bus.
Personally pot smoking it less harmful than getting totally drunk, I can speak of this from experience. You have pointed out a lot of flaws and no solutions. Educate youself so you can understand why things are the way they are, you don't have to agree, but you should understand the logic behind them.

You make me laugh, you want the right to wear what you want, but the person who owns the business doesn't have the right to run it how they see fit. So your real complaint is that you can't do drugs and screw little girls, sorry I don't feel sorry for you.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*sigh* you people fail to see the big picture. As a whole you dont have the freedoms you think you have. Of course there are laws protecting us from jack asses that drive 100mph. Of course there is a reason why a 22 yr old should not have sex with a 14 yr old. I know reasons why pot is illegal. Again, what i am saying, is that you have empty freedoms here in the US. With every bit of that freedom you use, you are going to pay a certain price. If you are given a freedom, you should be given it with no strings attached or else it is not a freedom. This is argument has occured many times throughout many philosophical discussions for many many years. So, if you want to call me ignorant, stupid, pot head, pediphile, so be it, but you must remember this...I have never once said i wanted to drive 100mph, i never said i wanted to have sex with a 14yr old, i never said i wanted to smoke pot. These are things you ASSume because i use them as an argument on how freedoms are never given !strings attached.

I am almost posivitve that at least 90% of us have read or listened to people talk about the idea of a divine plan. I am just as positive that you have also been a part of or read a discussion of a divine plan/w free will and the discussion of divine plan vs. free will. Same logic applies to my statements. With a divine plan you cannot have complete free will, it is not possible in any meaning of the words. In the ideas of a divine plan a person will do certain things or certain things will happen reguardless of how they chose to do things, and this is against the logic of free will. Just like you can wear what you want, but if you chose to do it at work, you will be punished. You can not say that you have this freedom when you can not excersize it at will w/o being punished by anyone else besides mother nature. Yes, it may be dangerous and there are reasons, some good some bad, that we must excersize caution when invoking these freedoms, but that should be the limit as far as restrictions if you will say you have complete freedom. A government that says that you have these freedoms should protect those freedoms. If you have the freedom to wear what you want, there should be a law protecting people so they will not be fired based on how they dress. If there is going to be a problem with it, the government should not say that you have total freedom because you dont.

Deltin you are a jack ass! For one, I am a woman and would not want to have sex with a girl reguardless of their age, once again you have proven your ignorance by assuming way to much. In a previous reply i had also said that i had no inclination or drive to smoke weed, but again you accuse me of argueing a philosophical point because i have an agenda to legalize pot or that i wish to smoke it whenever i feel the need.

As far as my education. I will be willing to place a large sum of money that i would school you in virtually every subject that a normal university would offer. Under my belt so far i have 1yr computer sciences, 2 yrs. pre law, and 1 yr of secondary teaching in the subjects of mathmatics and physics. In my free time since the age of 12 i have been reading many books on the subjects of mathmatics, physics (thermodynamics, astrophysics, quantum physics, and conceptual newtonian physics), psychology, pharmacuticals, history, religion, and the occasional classic. If you want me to spew facts i could and be like any other braindead freak without an original idea to take credit for. If you want to know which is actually worse, alcohol or marajuana, i could tell you.

It is a widely spred misconception that marajuana has little to no long term side effects, but this is wrong.
Long term side effects:
1. Impairment of cognitive functions
a. Short term memory loss (no its not just a temporary side effect)
b. Inability to Concentrate, similar to that of somebody diagnosed with ADHD.

2. Destruction of brain cells
After a continued use of marajuana the thc stored in the lining of the braincells eventually constrict, suffocate and eventually kill them.
3. Inability to regulate dopamine levels in your brain leading to depression and/or panic attacks.
4. Users going through puberty and even a short time afterwards will disturb their growth of the body, most importantly the brain. Users have a significantly lower brain weight than non users.
5. Users of marajuana have lower brain activity levels during the use and after quitting

Temporary side effects found until the discontinuation of marajuana use:
1. The user tends to stay at the maturity level that he/she was when he/she started using the drug. The user will have a very hard time if possible to mature correctly during use of marajuana.
2. Impared short term memory loss.
3. Impared cognitive functioning because the thc is stored in fat cells, most often the cells which make up the lining of your brain cells. This in turns makes it increasingly hard for the electrical impulses to be passed to and from individual brain cells.
4. Impared reflexes reason same as #3
5. Impared vision
6. Addiction

Alcohol long term:
1. destruction of liver
2. destruction of brian cells
3. ulcers
4. Depression

Short term:
1. impared reflexes
2. depression

Since i am too lazy right now, i will not name many more and hence the shorter answers for alcohol. But, all in all, they seem to be just as dangerous. Educate yourself, dont cry fact when you dont know what you are talking about.

Finally, my real complaint, which is, suprise suprise, not what deltin had ASSumed. My real complaint is that people say they have freedom when they dont. They are under the impression that we have soooo many more freedoms than other countries. In fact, we really dont. Like jegzed had mentioned, besides the taxes, his country is ran similarly to ours. Americans are pompous assholes whose shit does not stink, they do no wrong, and my house is better than your house kind of people. I lived next to a kid like that one time...everbody hated him, they kicked his ass a lot. America is like this, everybody hates us only they cant kick our ass...well they could if they felt like causing the destrution of the world as we know it, but aside from that choice, no they cant. If you fail to see my points, thats fine, i will just think lower of you for being closed minded. I am not trying to force you to agree that it is better in canada than the US because, as i mentioned in one of my first posts, that is just the country that is right for me and has what i am looking for. The US might be what you are looking for, cool...you can keep it. I am just, over and over, in different ways, explaining the limitations of your freedoms and you argue with me because you feel that I think it is right to screw 14 yr olds. You obviously cant read well and i feel sorry for you, honestly. I think it is sad when people cant enjoy books by ernest negal, bertrand russle, and Victor Hugo. I think those are important, interesting, and enjoyable books that everybody should have the chance to read and it seems that you will never have the intelectual capacity to understand half of what they are trying to say. So please, if you are not like this and do have this capacity, show it by not assuming and actually reading what i say with an open mind rather than an intense need to retort and flame when you see that i have replied.

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"Kill them all, God will know his own." -Domingo de Guzman, A.K.A Saint Dominic
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Postby Kifle » Fri Jul 19, 2002 10:22 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rausrh:
<B>Kifle,
Could you post which countries have these rights/freedoms/misc. benefits that the US does not?

Prostitution - Legal in Nevada
Drugs - Legal CA(limited)
Public intoxication - You can be as drunk as you want until you start causing problems for other people or endanger yourself
No speed limits - WY
Free healthcare - Medicare
No drinking age - Ok Not in the US
No statitory rape laws - These vary by state, but if you are upset that you cannot have sex with anyone younger than 14 you're just sick.


etc...

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would be more than happy to educate you.

Prostitution legal in nevada under very strict laws...also legal in china, russia, france, italy without the restrictions. Yes i do believe that if prostitution is to be legal it should have the restrictions we place on them, but that still gives it limitations so it is not the full priviledge.

Drugs - In california yes, marajuana is Virtually legal. But what about heroin, cocaine, meth, etc...legal in Vietnam, amsterdam, most other third world countries. It is hardly to say marajuana is legal in california because it is only strictly perscribed in a very little number of offices in a very small portion of the state. On top of this, it is only legal for people with certain medical ailments. Which in turn again, does not make this a freedom for all who want to enjoy.

Public intoxication - Wrong, it is ilegal for you to step out of a bar when you are highly intoxicated. My friends dad was arrested 1 year ago for walking home instead of driving. He was not causing any problems, was not being loud, it was 3am and he was alone. Again this is legal in france, italy, amsterdam.

Speed limits - got me on that one Image Kudos Also legal in some parts of europe.

Free healthcare - only to a select few and even then it is almost not worth the trouble to aquire this medicare...a lot of bullshit involved here. I was on it when i had my first child, constantly tried to screw me, made false claims, etc... Also awarded to citizens (no limitations on who) in canada, wherever jegzed is from, sweden i think.

No drinking age - got you on that one. Legal in mexico and i think france but dont quote me on it.

No statatory rape laws - off the top of my head, russia, and various countries in Asia. it still having that 14 yr old cutoff at the lowest is still a restriction which would make it to be a non-true freedom.

------------------
"Kill them all, God will know his own." -Domingo de Guzman, A.K.A Saint Dominic

[This message has been edited by Kifle (edited 07-19-2002).]
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Postby Deltin » Sat Jul 20, 2002 12:42 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B> *sigh* you people fail to see the big picture. As a whole you dont have the freedoms you think you have.

(Deltin) that's a huge assumption. How do you know what people really think?

Again, what i am saying, is that you have empty freedoms here in the US. With every bit of that freedom you use, you are going to pay a certain price. If you are given a freedom, you should be given it with no strings attached or else it is not a freedom.

(Deltin) What does that mean? What is an empty freedom. Please talk down to us that don't understand you, cause I have no idea what a freedom without a string would be.

If you have the freedom to wear what you want, there should be a law protecting people so they will not be fired based on how they dress. If there is going to be a problem with it, the government should not say that you have total freedom because you dont.

(Deltin) I have never heard, ever, that we had or have total freedom, where has the government said this? I'm not saying that they didn't say it, I just personally have never heard it.

Deltin you are a jack ass! For one, I am a woman and would not want to have sex with a girl reguardless of their age

(Deltin) I know I am lol, mostly I just wanted to rattle your chain, nothing personal.
You are correct though, I did assume too much and shouldn't have.

My real complaint is that people say they have freedom when they dont. They are under the impression that we have soooo many more freedoms than other countries. In fact, we really dont.

(Deltin) Again you have not established any basis for your comment. If they only things are drugs and underaged sex then how is that better? Please be more specific.

Americans are pompous assholes whose shit does not stink, they do no wrong, and my house is better than your house kind of people. I lived next to a kid like that one time...everbody hated him, they kicked his ass a lot. America is like this, everybody hates us only they cant kick our ass...well they could if they felt like causing the destrution of the world as we know it, but aside from that choice, no they cant.

(Deltin) I totally disagree with these assumptions, have you been to a forgein country? I have and have always been treated extremely well. Canadians frequently come to the U.S. to shop and vacation, hell lots of people from all over the world do that. Even more come here to live, or wish they could. You sound very unhappy with the way things are and for that I'm sorry. So if you could live any where you wanted to where would you live?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



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No matter where you go, there you are.
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Postby Kybrell » Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:00 am

See? I told you Daz was an idiot. Anyone who would consider spitting an assault? Oh you mean you'd hit me? ROFL..
Wuss..
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Postby Daz » Sat Jul 20, 2002 2:02 am

spitting on someone is unwanted physical contact. that defines assault. you are an idiot.

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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Jul 20, 2002 2:22 am

Heh. I'd take that bet Daz. If you punched someone for spitting on you, I doubt any sane judge would even consider it self defence. It _may_ be unwanted physical contact, but it is in no way harmful...

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Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.
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Postby Zoldren » Sat Jul 20, 2002 3:08 am

I stoped reading this a lot of posts back.. but here is my response to the ones i did read.. my head is hurting shhhhheessshh

sorry i didnt put everything in bold you wanted to read it all again though i know you did )

Once again your assumption is wrong, I do live in the USA. As far as the public companys are concerned, that, in fact, does take away your right to wear what you want for that 8 hours or so. If you walk into your place of employment in shorts and a band t-shirt when that company demands that you wear a suit and tie, you will be fired. It is law that you cannot fire somebody based one race/religion/color, but they can fire you even though it is your right, your freedom to wear what you want...sounds like a half-ass/empty freedom IMO. Schools are government funded and ran. Why couldnt I wear my Black Sabbath T-shirt that has a pentagram on it? Why couldnt my friends wear their shirts with a pot leaf on it? Once again our freedoms of expression were taken away from us.

yes its YOUR right to work there. YOU Know the rules that they want you to adhire to if you dont want to then dont that is your right. you can also quit at any time.

" Once again our freedoms of expression were taken away from us."

Your rights Stop where other peoples begin, in that if you do something that harms either mentaly or physicaly other people you have just infringed on their freedoms, so for example.. of a pentragram on your tshirt.. lets say it offends me.. will you apologize and take it off if i tell you so? or will you tell me Phuck off...you just took away my freedom.

freedom != anarchy

democratic freedom == a mutual understanding of all peoples of all races and religions creeds, or those without,working together to get along peacfuly and live out their dream of freedom and help spread their joy of peace freedom and hopefuly love for their fellow human being on to others and their children.....
(insert here your addition of what a democratic freedom means to you)


It is not state laws that make the use of drugs illegal it is federal law. It is the state that controls the punishment/sentancing of those criminals. Last time I checked, states can not override federal law. The reason why marajuana is legal in said states is because of medical reasons. Federal law prohibits drug use for recreational perposes, therefor the state does not override the federal law, but adds an exception because of a loophole.

Think again, even if you only watch any nation wide tv/read newspaper.. you will know better from the last few years. it is not loop holes. some is yes i agre, because its easier to get things threw loopholes in law than to pass laws to opose it. so to this again i say do more research.


Rights/freedoms/misc. benefits alloted by other countries that the US doesn't.

Prostitution
Drugs
Public intoxication
No speed limits
Free healthcare
No drinking age
No statitory rape laws
etc...

again your facts are wrong
prostitution was allowed in certain states...
statitory rape laws...maybe this just falls under their regular rape? *i dont know about this am asking*

also their are countrys who are FAR worse in punishing "offenders" for those listed above...

any body familar with the sentence for stealing in Saudi ?....

Rausrh
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Posts: 239
Registered: Feb 2001
posted 07-19-2002 04:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kifle,
Could you post which countries have these rights/freedoms/misc. benefits that the US does not?
Prostitution - Legal in Nevada
Drugs - Legal CA(limited)
Public intoxication - You can be as drunk as you want until you start causing problems for other people or endanger yourself
No speed limits - WY
Free healthcare - Medicare
No drinking age - Ok Not in the US
No statitory rape laws - These vary by state, but if you are upset that you cannot have sex with anyone younger than 14 you're just sick.


etc...

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Rausrh licks you.


Yup. Another problem with the wonder of military presence. When you were 13/14 would you be a bit insulted if your parents still had a babysitter for you when they went out for a few hourse? I know I would have. It is a bit of an insult when you know, think you know, or want to prove or do something on your own and big brother comes over and says you need to be watched and babysat.

with the mentality of most of your recent posts i would still give you a baby siter
Gormal
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Postby Gormal » Sat Jul 20, 2002 4:02 am

If you have a problem with what we are doing in Afghanistan then get the hell out of my country. If you don't live in America and live in some country thats content to sit by and watch people kill hundreds of innocent civilians (hi sweden) then you can refrain from pretending like you have a fucking right to even open your mouths.

We are the most powerful country in the world. Everyone that feels repressed and has a chip on their shoulder wants a piece of us. If retaliation is what it takes then thats what it takes. There is no being the bigger and better person when so many lives are at stake. I'm not the only one here that is willing to give their life for this country. I know of a few military members here. I love this country and though we aren't perfect we have a damn good life all things considered. Yeah we have our problems but we have alot more to deal with then some country thats the size of my backyard.

Get off America's back.

Gormal <-- Proud to be an American.

CTR SA Thompson, Jacob, D USN

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Gormal Stoneforge -Hammerstrike-

"Forward Mithrilguard!"
Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Sat Jul 20, 2002 4:44 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zoldren:
<B>I stoped reading this a lot of posts back.. but here is my response to the ones i did read.. my head is hurting shhhhheessshh

sorry i didnt put everything in bold you wanted to read it all again though i know you did )

Once again your assumption is wrong, I do live in the USA. As far as the public companys are concerned, that, in fact, does take away your right to wear what you want for that 8 hours or so. If you walk into your place of employment in shorts and a band t-shirt when that company demands that you wear a suit and tie, you will be fired. It is law that you cannot fire somebody based one race/religion/color, but they can fire you even though it is your right, your freedom to wear what you want...sounds like a half-ass/empty freedom IMO. Schools are government funded and ran. Why couldnt I wear my Black Sabbath T-shirt that has a pentagram on it? Why couldnt my friends wear their shirts with a pot leaf on it? Once again our freedoms of expression were taken away from us.

yes its YOUR right to work there. YOU Know the rules that they want you to adhire to if you dont want to then dont that is your right. you can also quit at any time.

(kifle)So, once again, it would come to one right vs. another. Maybe after so many years or something happens to me where i now find suits to be offensive and a form of conformity? who is to say that person A's right is more important than person B's right? Yes i could quit any time i wanted, but what if i like my job except for the dress code? Let me put this another way.

Person A goes into work and says, "Hah, i just saw the funniest Nigger on the way to work." Person B, who is black, goes to the boss and gets Person A fired. This would be infringing on person A's freedom of speech. If a government will give you a Freedom, speech in this case, it should protect it by laws, not infringe upon it by laws. In this case you would say, well, it infringed on person B's right not to hear such racial slang. Couldn't person B just quit his job also. Why should person A be forced to leave because he chose to use his God Given freedom, something that is PROTECTED by the constitution under the bill of rights. That dear sir, is an infringment upon ones freedom. That is my point. Yeah, you should use your freedom carefully and respect others, but if you feel the need to say such things, you should, because it is said in the foundation of this country, that you will be protected when using your freedom of speech.

" Once again our freedoms of expression were taken away from us."

Your rights Stop where other peoples begin, in that if you do something that harms either mentaly or physicaly other people you have just infringed on their freedoms, so for example.. of a pentragram on your tshirt.. lets say it offends me.. will you apologize and take it off if i tell you so? or will you tell me Phuck off...you just took away my freedom.

(Kifle)You also have the freedom to not look at my shirt, do you not. You have the freedom to accept my answer of fuck off. What would you say would happen if i walked up to a person wearing a crucifix and wanted them to remove it because it infringed on my freedom of religion? You wouldn't see a problem with it because a christian's freedom of religion will always be more protected than someone of satanic, buddhist, islamic religion. Is this right? No. Does this happen? Yes. If cricifix guy can wear his holy symbol, pentagram person should have the same right, and they do, but the pentagram persons rights are stripped because they are not the populas' belief.


freedom != anarchy

democratic freedom == a mutual understanding of all peoples of all races and religions creeds, or those without,working together to get along peacfuly and live out their dream of freedom and help spread their joy of peace freedom and hopefuly love for their fellow human being on to others and their children.....
(insert here your addition of what a democratic freedom means to you)

(Kifle)Too bad america is not a democracy huh. We dont have democratic freedoms. That is more of a communistic approach more than democratic. but, in the case mentioned above. The populas would overrule the minority's wants/desires. For an example re-read the cricifix/pentagram comment.

It is not state laws that make the use of drugs illegal it is federal law. It is the state that controls the punishment/sentancing of those criminals. Last time I checked, states can not override federal law. The reason why marajuana is legal in said states is because of medical reasons. Federal law prohibits drug use for recreational perposes, therefor the state does not override the federal law, but adds an exception because of a loophole.

Think again, even if you only watch any nation wide tv/read newspaper.. you will know better from the last few years. it is not loop holes. some is yes i agre, because its easier to get things threw loopholes in law than to pass laws to opose it. so to this again i say do more research.

(Kifle) I have done my research, most laws that are passed to legalize drugs in said states are most often passed because of a loophole that doesnt allow a system to overrule it. Of course, there are other ways this happens, but a loophole is the most common.


Rights/freedoms/misc. benefits alloted by other countries that the US doesn't.

Prostitution
Drugs
Public intoxication
No speed limits
Free healthcare
No drinking age
No statitory rape laws
etc...

again your facts are wrong
prostitution was allowed in certain states...
statitory rape laws...maybe this just falls under their regular rape? *i dont know about this am asking*

(Kifle)Read the following post where it is legal and see the side comments. I do understand that you might not have read this at the time of response....

also their are countrys who are FAR worse in punishing "offenders" for those listed above...

(Kifle) And other countries are FAR more lax about their punishments of crimes that are also punished in the USA, whats your point?


any body familar with the sentence for stealing in Saudi ?....

(Kifle) Anybody familiar with the sentance for Selling marajuana in the US? Especially Indiana and Nevada? Compare to that of france, italy, amsterdam. You are getting off subject.

Rausrh
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posted 07-19-2002 04:09 PM </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Deltin, I am kinda tired of replying to you. I dont think you will ever understand basic logic. If you want to discuss this in the game i am sure i could be less abrasive and we could come to a conslusion, but arguing this with such long intervals between responses really will get us nowhere. I am sorry if i have been shitty to you, i get that way sometimes...

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"Kill them all, God will know his own." -Domingo de Guzman, A.K.A Saint Dominic

[This message has been edited by Kifle (edited 07-20-2002).]
Baikalisan
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Postby Baikalisan » Sat Jul 20, 2002 5:26 am

If you push us we _will_ push back.
If you attack us we _will_ retaliate.
If you do not like the way things work here, leave.

As i said once before in this post i am DAMN PROUD to be an American. We have made our mistakes and we have paid our dues to get to where we are.
You dont like the way we do things?
Then go the fuck back to where you came from.
Whats that? You dont want to go back to where you came from? Whats that? They supress you and keep you down? Whats that? You cant get a job there and support your 15 fuckin kids? Whats that? Your kids were starving America let you in, embraced you and gave you a job and a place to live and now your family is thriving? Whats that?

If you dont like the way things are done, go back to where you came from. If your from America and dont like the way things are done, well its not so hard to get a passport and take a plane. You can carry your ass over there and eventually you'll get what you deserve.

My mother, God rest her soul, taught me a valuable lesson:

Payback is a bitch.
Revenge is a motherfucker.



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Baikalisan Terrorforge- Valsharess Elg'Caress - Orbdrin D'oloth
Turxx
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Postby Turxx » Sat Jul 20, 2002 6:14 am

propaganda
Lasar
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Postby Lasar » Sat Jul 20, 2002 7:39 am

Hrmmmmm, couple thoughts.

You are free to do whatever you want, you just have to face the consequences.

And why do people bitch about having to give up money (a materialistic item) to be healthy and alive.

And lastly, Kifle, notice how almost all of the countries you mentioned with the freedom of drugs and public intoxication are 3rd World countries or former superpowers?
Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Sat Jul 20, 2002 8:51 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lasar:
<B>Hrmmmmm, couple thoughts.

You are free to do whatever you want, you just have to face the consequences.

And why do people bitch about having to give up money (a materialistic item) to be healthy and alive.

And lastly, Kifle, notice how almost all of the countries you mentioned with the freedom of drugs and public intoxication are 3rd World countries or former superpowers?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, yeah, they better ones might be former superpowers, but that doesnt make them less appealing or make it to where they have inadiquate living conditions for one to be happy and prosper. Power has nothing to with happieness. Being a follower of the philosophy of the middle way, the fact that they are no longer a superpower makes them all that more appealing to me.

Yes everybody is free to do what they want, granted, I am speaking of freedoms alocated by the Government not free will in general; although i have made referances towards this, it was not my intention.

When a government gives you the freedom of action of any kind, that freedom is protected by federal law. My favorite freedom in this argument has been the freedom of speech because there are a lot of instances off the top of my head, not that it is the only one that has problems. The only consequences of these freedoms should be the consequences of nature, not government. If i were to call an italian a WOP and get punched in the face, i could have the man arrested for assault, even though I instigated it using my freedom of speech. This is how it should be defended. In the instance of the man at work saying the same thing and getting fired for it, that should also be protected by the constitutional rights the man has been guarenteed by the US government, but they aren't. That is the basis of my argument of empty freedoms.

In your argument, the things that would be covered in that would be things like murder, rape, etc... In these instances the assailant is commiting a crime under the impression that there are laws against this and there is no freedom of murder/rape/etc... He has not been fooled into thinking that he will not get in trouble based on an empty freedom awarded to him by becoming a citizen of the US.

Nature, ie. the man punching me in the face for calling him a WOP, should govern our so called freedoms. We get punished for using them senslessly and frivelously, but not by the government. Pardon the expression, but that is indian giving Image

P.S. Again, any racial comments were intended for hypothetical situations and are not my views of that specific race. The last comment could be offensive, and if it is it was not intended to be and I appologize. I just lack better wording and thought a universal expression would fit best.


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"Kill them all, God will know his own." -Domingo de Guzman, A.K.A Saint Dominic
Vigis
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Postby Vigis » Sat Jul 20, 2002 9:27 am

I'll admit, I skipped through quite a few posts in order to say this, so if any of you have said this before, I apoligize.

Kifle, NEWSFLASH!!!!! We live in a country in which the government does NOT control the industries and companies, there are two restraints put upon them. 1. That they do not monopolize the market. This makes for (OMG!) a free market in which the lowest person on the freakin' totem pole has a chance to make it to the top. And 2. That they deal honestly with the people who put their own money into it. I am not sure, but I am guessing that you have never had money invested. (I have, and I sold for a very stupid reason). For you to say that the govenernment controls our entire economy is just plain ignorant. Have you seen how the markets have dropped in the past few weeks? If our government controlled it, either it would not have happened or we would not have known about it. Our economy wouldn't be falling the way it has. For you to insinuate that the government controls our economy is just plain wrong. Yes, I will admit that there were congressmen involved in the Enron scandal, but if the government controlled it, do you think we would have heard about it?
Don't blame the president, don't blame the congress, and don't blame the media for people getting the shaft. The people that should be blamed are the people who hid it. The people who lied about it are being prosecuted (HOLY SHIT!!!!) justice is making it's way.

Before I flame anymore, I have one request. Please do not flame my country, my leaders (that I actually voted for. . .do you get that chance? Do you vote or do you just criticize?) and do not flame our economic system.

In my PERSONAL exp, I have known peniless individuals who have become multi millionaires. How often do you see that elsewhere? They did it because of their will, their drive, and their freedom to make their way through any obstacles. They were born poor, and they will die rich. Can you say the same for yourself?

Vigis
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Postby Vigis » Sat Jul 20, 2002 9:43 am

Before I flame anymore, I have one request. Please do not flame my country, my leaders (that I actually voted for. . .do you get that chance? Do you vote or do you just criticize?) and do not flame our economic system.

BTW, this paragraph was not meant for Kifle alone. It was meant as a general request to all people posting on this topic.

I love my country. In every single war that the U.S. has ever been involved in (even before we were called the United States of America, somebody from my bloodline has fought. I love my country, I love the freedom we have, I love the fact that we do not have to follow in our parents' footsteps, and I love the fact that we have the oppurtunity to better ourselves.

Kifle I apoligize if you thought I was insinuating that you are anti-U.S. etc.

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