Swearing

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Gormal
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Swearing

Postby Gormal » Sun Oct 20, 2002 6:18 am

Ok I'm getting tired of getting jumped on every time I swear on OOC or in a shout. Most of the time it just comes out. Some of us live in an enviornment where swearing is the predominant language.

I can bash a prostitutes skull in and loot her clothes from her bloody rotting corpse.

I can steal from the homeless.

I can use lude socials programmed into the game intself.

But if I swear its the end of the frigging world. You know if you have a problem with foul language that isnt used every other word then you are a hypocrite for playing this game. Yeah it may not be intelligent but thats not the point. I don't take the Lord's name in vain, just use the f word etc.

I think this rule is silly and people need to learn to grow up and realize that the world isnt sugar coated for your enjoyment. Theres stuff out there you don't like and you just gotta learn to ignore it or deal with it. Tog ooc shout ignore a person gag them etc. I think the rule should be removed cause it ruins my desire to mud getting yelled at for something like that while johnny suckass goes off and rampages a village of innocents.

Also...you are allowed to swear on the bbs....I do it and so do tons of others and its never called out unless it gets too bad. Doesn't that sound a little hypocritical? I'm not talking about any of the Staff in particultar they are doing what they are told. I think that they shouldn't be told that however.

Enj0y at your leisure.

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Tanji Smanji
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Sun Oct 20, 2002 6:40 am

Shut the hell up.

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Postby Ragorn » Sun Oct 20, 2002 8:04 am

This is a family mud, blah blah blah. This mud doesn't have an 18+ disclaimer blah blah blah.

A woman's erotic cry can be heard from a building nearby.

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Postby kiryan » Sun Oct 20, 2002 8:34 am

this coming from the guy who spearheaded the movement to be curb what you were allowed to pick as a title.

wonder if i could use the exact same argument you use here to justify looser titles restrictions.

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Postby Jegzed » Sun Oct 20, 2002 9:08 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
This is a family mud, blah blah blah. This mud doesn't have an 18+ disclaimer blah blah blah.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not american so I don't get it.

There are violence in this game, and its built around killing people, so how can it EVER be considered a family mud?

Besides, you hear lots of swearing in kids shows on tv, so what does that have to do with a "family" mud?



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Gormal
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Postby Gormal » Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:48 am

apprently sarcasm is geographically limited as well...

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Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Sun Oct 20, 2002 3:33 pm

Swearing is just words.

If people don't like them, then #gag those words, or #substitute them.

Frankly, if you go off the deep end because of a swear word, something's wrong.

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Postby Sylvos » Sun Oct 20, 2002 3:50 pm

On the other hand, when a person does ignore/avoid a person they don't like, they get flamed in mudmail. Good option.

Sylvos
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Postby Snurgt » Sun Oct 20, 2002 3:53 pm

Just FYI theres a zone emote in WD that says:

'Yeah, well piss off asshole!'



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Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gormal:
<B>apprently sarcasm is geographically limited as well...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Och det är helt uppenbart att du inte förstår allt i världen heller.

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Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sylvos:
<B>On the other hand, when a person does ignore/avoid a person they don't like, they get flamed in mudmail. Good option.

Sylvos</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Harassment isn't tolerated on the mud. This is what the gods are for. If the person in the scenario above is having this problem, and hasn't gone to the gods, that's their own fault then. Noone has to put up with this stuff.

And fyi: #substitute {fuck} {heck}

That works like a champ without ignoring or avoiding said person.

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Gormal
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Postby Gormal » Sun Oct 20, 2002 5:14 pm

wow sylvos thats pretty low... ill refrain from posting the mudmails i saved from b4 i left for boot camp.

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Sylvos
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Postby Sylvos » Sun Oct 20, 2002 5:36 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gormal:
<B>wow sylvos thats pretty low... ill refrain from posting the mudmails i saved from b4 i left for boot camp.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's nice of you
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Postby Musi » Sun Oct 20, 2002 5:52 pm

Uh... I can't translate this...

Och det är helt uppenbart att du inte förstår allt i världen heller

I tried on Altavista from German to English and it came up with

"Och det är helt uppenbart att du inte förstår allt i världen more brighter"

What does it mean?


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Postby cherzra » Sun Oct 20, 2002 6:05 pm

Means it's not German, that's what Image
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Postby Fura » Sun Oct 20, 2002 6:08 pm

I looked at the rules so I could understand the question better. The only reference I found to language was in the disclaimer. And Gormal said the problem was with OOC and shouting - which says he has no troubles when he swears in groups.

The only thing I can see that makes it an issue is who else will read his swearing. People can find groups without people who swear, so gsa isn't a problem here. However, there's no non-swearing version of OOC or shout.

Maybe swearing in ooc could be blocked by the mud engine, so people who have only telnet access or didn't think of substituting curses wouldn't have to deal with it, and people wouldn't have to watch what they say quite so vigilantly. I'd rather see that than have all swearing on the mud blocked...
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Postby Kaza » Sun Oct 20, 2002 7:15 pm

I don't mind swearing or anything, but I'm of the rather firm opinion that just because you're allowed to swear, it doesn't mean you should. Swearing is a form of expression to make something you say more powerful. If you swear all the time, the meaning of that extra word or two is lost.
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Postby moritheil » Sun Oct 20, 2002 7:43 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
Means it's not German, that's what Image</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Silly swedes.

Can't we all just get along?

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Postby Musi » Sun Oct 20, 2002 7:44 pm

Hehe Fura Image I can't speak a word of German, but it was worth a shot Image

I swear. A lot in person, but just around people that know that I do. I wouldn't walk into an interview and be like "Hey, a$$hole! How are you doing?"

I try to bleep myself on the bbs and on the mud as well. For ex, look above. But there are some times when I'll get really upset about something (like losing a weapon over water, etc) when I'll just let a torrent, maybe in say, maybe in gsay, but it's never directed at a particular person (usually just at myself).

I try not to say GD or JC anymore, just because of one of the 10 commandments. But I don't see anything wrong with the other 1001 cuss words. Sometimes, if used sparingly, it REALLY gets your attention. If someone says f**k every other word, my mind starts bleeping it and it loses its effect.

A few years ago, I mudded with a 12 year old (don't remember his name now). He was fine with swearing and some of the emotes, etc...

About the only time I don't like swearing is if it is directed at another player. Image If you jokingly greet someone as "Hey a-hole!" and they say something like "What's up b**ch?" then both ppl realize they don't really mean it. But when 1/2 a group dies, and someone gets back in the group and starts saying "If some f**king a$$hole would have f**king healed me..." it just hurts ppl's feelings and doesn't get anything accomplished.

I don't like sensorship, so I hope the mud doesn't get bleeped Image I only use GMud, so I don't know how to gag etc... But it doesn't bother me either.


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[This message has been edited by Musi (edited 10-20-2002).]
Ambar
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Postby Ambar » Sun Oct 20, 2002 9:03 pm

Everyone knows how sweet and innocent I am and that I don't cuss or make sexual innuendos ... (err hope it won't storm tonight)

Which anyone who knows me means the above is all wrong, and I can get as raunchy (rofl new word to describe christina aguilara(sp)) as they come .. I love dirty jokes, I love to make people blush .. but I do it in certain settings....

So that said ...

Cursing, Joking, foul language whatever you want to call it has it's uses, and in a group setting where you know the people it is fine ... however when you have offended ONE person .. you are in the wrong and need to curb it ...

Cursing over OOC, NHC, whispers, enotes, any public forums.. is wrong ... there ARE kids who play ... there are those who get offended by foul language ... rather than take the chance of offending someone why not just curb yourself??

I had an issue over nhc today that really ticked me off ... a VERY VERY sexual name was obtained with the autogenerator, and the person took it as a joke and started using the NHC ... there were no immorts on to handle it so I took it upon myself and asked the person to refrain from speaking publicly and to get a new name! Immediately the lewd jokes started by some players I really respect (Helpers themselves) ... I asked them to stop and was immediately told to *chill out it is only a joke* Even when myself and another helper said the name offended us ... the jokes continued til i said I had a log of it and would post it if necessary ...

Opinions??? (no i wont post it .. the threat was enough to stop it all)

----Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition


[This message has been edited by Ambar (edited 10-20-2002).]
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Postby Jegzed » Sun Oct 20, 2002 9:23 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ambar:
Cursing over OOC, NHC, whispers, enotes, any public forums.. is wrong ... there ARE kids who play ... there are those who get offended by foul language ... </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Somethings seriously wrong with a society where, saying "fuck you" is considered to be worse than saying "kill you".

If someone lets a kid play a game about killing things, he/she's not exactly a responsible parent who cares about some language.

There is a REASON why violence is censored on tv, but NOT swearing.



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kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Sun Oct 20, 2002 9:30 pm

my opinion, while none of this is considered polite behavior it is more or less accepted behavior in society. if you can't handle swearing and sexual jokes and sexual innuendos in an adult like fashion then you should be the one to change behavior not others. there is gags and substitutes, there are other muds, and there is not mudding. There are far too many options available to "sensitive" people and far too many things that people find offensive. Why on earth would you want to put yourself in a position to be responsible for policing something like this.

harrassmenet being an altogether different thing and should remain condemned.

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Postby Krogenar » Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:12 pm

I'm actually glad that the immortals come down hard on excessive cursing. A mud is supposed to be a community, and when people start cursing very freely, it starts to wear down the social fabric of the mud, over time.

An emote in Watderdeep that contains a swear word is not the same as a PLAYER using crummy language, on a channel that all players can hear. I've played on muds where thre's no control at all over the type of language used, and the channels are usually filled with filth that I don't really care to hear.

Like it or not, we're all fellow members of this community, and we should have some basic respect for the way we talk to each other.



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Postby kiryan » Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:16 pm

and respect for the way others communicate. like if they are prone to using certain 4 letter words to emphasis their fucking points yall shouldn't be getting upset about the social fabric.

oh and all players can tog ooc if you didnt know.

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[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 10-20-2002).]
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Postby Fura » Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:42 pm

"oh and all players can tog ooc if you didnt know."

Yes, in fact Gormal suggested that everyone turn off ooc and gag any cursing one should find offensive, and should ignore people who are found offensive.

I don't listen to ooc, except when I want to know more about news I don't get here (of course, the moment the rubbish starts again I turn it off). I agree that ooc is not required for standard play. However, it's the one channel that anyone can access, and if swearing is to be moderated in only one area, I'd recommend ooc.

Shouts are important to the playability of the mud, and should not be toggled off. I don't gag or ignore players - I can't very well heal people if they are gagged, and as one might imagine, mages who don't protect their targets (or can't see their spellup list because one person's name is in it) have a very difficult time.

I believe the initial question was about public channels, though. OOC and shout. As long as the disclaimer suggests a limitation on word choice, it should be respected for public channels.

Will the disclaimer be modified to allow speech of all kinds, hateful or not? That will definitely change the player base and the whole atmosphere of Sojourn - a step not to be taken without thought.

I hope it stays as is...
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Oct 20, 2002 11:24 pm

Sometimes restraining your language is just known as "courtesy" for others. They don't have to listen to ooc, no, but words like that don't *have* to be used, either. I swear up a blue streak, but that doesn't mean I would stand in the line in the grocery store and spew it out.

This is the way I told my kids. "Swear words are just words, but there are people who believe like you and there are people who do not, and it doesn't hurt you in the least to *not* use these words. I have no problems if you go to your room and use every foul expression you've ever heard, but until you learn what might and might not be considered appropriate for time and place within the bounds of common courtesy, I do not expect to hear these words from you in public."

In that vein ... I respect that not all believe as I do, and would not begin to censor your behavior. I do believe, however, that the staff are right in asking the public forums to be kept somewhat on the clean side as a courtesy to all players. As I've said before, I see this game as something I play in somebody else's home, I do not HAVE to come play it, but since I WANT to come play it, it seems to be logical to play by their rules, and show them the courtesy they deserve.
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Postby kiryan » Mon Oct 21, 2002 1:45 am

yes when your in someone else's house you follow thier rules. we are not talking about whether or not you should follow the rules, we are talking about whether or not the rules should be changed. big difference.

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Postby Dalar » Mon Oct 21, 2002 2:57 am

how about a channel for adults and one for kids. seriously if you don't like swearing, go live in a box. more than half of the people int he world swear. I being one of them. i've had little 6 year old kids shout fuck after i kick their ass in fighting games.

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Postby Yayaril » Mon Oct 21, 2002 3:36 am

I second that idea, Dartan. I want an OOC channel which isn't moderated =9

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Postby Pobbil » Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:38 am

All I can add... In my day to day life, if every other word out of my mouth isnt a curse word... I get looked at funny.


Andi

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Postby Kifle » Mon Oct 21, 2002 6:02 am

At the age of 5 i was learning blowjob insults at the school's playground in chicago...the age of clean language is gone and has been gone now for about 40+ years now.

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Postby moritheil » Mon Oct 21, 2002 3:06 pm

And the people cried out with a loud voice, petitioning, "We demand a common denominator! We will not stand for something more, something greater! Let us be what we are, and nothing more. Do not force us to aspire!"

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Postby kiryan » Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:02 pm

excellent suggestion dartan. i'd vote for an OOC channel for thick skinned people.

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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:15 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B>At the age of 5 i was learning blowjob insults at the school's playground in chicago...the age of clean language is gone and has been gone now for about 40+ years now.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I completely disagree. I grew up on the worst side of town as ghetto as it gets in Tulsa, Oklahoma. That might not be Chicago, but Tulsa is severely segregated, with an overabundance of racial discrimination... the slums are the same slums you'll see in just about any large city. I was taught how to speak properly and expected to behave in public. The majority of my friends were expected to behave by their parents. I'm NOT 40 years old yet. Perhaps I am a little bit older, but that does not mean I am THAT out of touch. I expected my children to behave, and their friends' parents expected their children to behave, as well.

It's been mentioned before that it's very simple to set your own chatroom up in IRC or another venue like it. The OOC channel is one of the most public forums there is in a game open to the public. As much as there are some people who want it unrestricted, the moderators of the game still have a responsibility to ALL the people who play the game, and therefore it is proper of them to ask those who *choose* to use that forum to keep it clean.

If it bothers you that much that somebody asks you to not use certain words, then the same argument can be made that you use about people who don't want to hear them. Don't go out into public, or anywhere else there might be somebody who doesn't want to hear it. You wouldn't want your life restricted in that manner just as others wouldn't want their lives restricted. It's really not that difficult to decide to not use some words, it certainly hurts you in no way, it's not compromising your life in any manner, and learning a modicum of impulse control while using public forums might be good for you in the long run.

Since the topic seems so dear to some of you and you seem to want to make a huge issue of it, then tell me this. I will support your right to speak any way you want, to profess your beliefs in the manner you feel is best for you (barring those which require hurting others), and would even join the front lines in your protest, were somebody trying to restrict what you do in your private life. Why does it imply that I am somehow evil if I hope that others might be respectful of the people around them who might have different beliefs?

I know that when I step out of my front door I am entering into a world of unpredictable variables, and I take those risks. To tell me that if I don't want to hear foul language then I shouldn't leave my home is just wrong, as wrong as it is for others to attempt to censor your behavior in your personal affairs. Which side is the more self-involved? You're expecting everybody in the mud to follow the same standard you set for yourselves, or to hold the same beliefs that you do, and if they don't, then to hell with them. What some others are asking of you is to do whatever makes you comfortable, but don't necessarily bring that to the most public forum within the game.

::shrug::

It's a lose/lose situation, no matter how you look at it. I still don't think it's asking too much to ask for people to show a little respect on a very public forum.
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Postby sok » Mon Oct 21, 2002 11:32 pm

i use to ask folks not to use profanity in my group. but it was not alway successful. got a suggestion to gag it and have gag it for 3+ years. now if folks want to talk to me they dont use it. of course they can make fun of me during groups, which is normal sometimes. i remember recently Turg was trying to mess with me. What he didnt' know was that i ungag those word and sub them for more acceptable ones. When he was finally done, i told him hey foolio, i sub my cuss words now. it was funny stuff.
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Oct 22, 2002 1:01 am

Lets get down to basics here.

OOC is a public forum on a free game (to the player) that has a rule set down by the owners that simply states, "Don't swear on OOC". This is not a freedom of speech issue, this is a forger asking you to be polite to others on our mud, as you don't pay to play here and are thus our rules are not optional. Follow them, despite yourselves.

If you break the rule, punnishment will follow, and I use something much more caustic than soap. Image I don't mean to be crude here, but there really is no debate on the issue. We want a friendly, professional mud. Respect this.

o_o
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Postby thanuk » Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:25 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B>how about a channel for adults and one for kids. seriously if you don't like swearing, go live in a box. more than half of the people int he world swear. I being one of them. i've had little 6 year old kids shout fuck after i kick their ass in fighting games.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

dartan only wins because he is playing 6 year old kids.


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Postby muma » Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:48 am

I'm neutral towards this. I don't swear a lot in real life, but I do sometimes. Other people swearing doesn't bother me, but I am pro-chatgroups. It would be nice to be able to group with an evilrace (if you're goodrace) or viceversa....just to chat. Other games have chatgroups. Perhaps you want to group with 20 people that you are friends with, just to chat. Yea yea, I know people say "just join an assoc." but I don't want to :P :P :P

I'm sure there are others who agree. Now I love ooc, but sometimes I want to talk about stuff we aren't allowed to talk about. Tells work, but seriously chatgroups would be nice Image

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Postby Tanji Smanji » Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:55 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Miax:
<B>Lets get down to basics here.

OOC is a public forum on a free game (to the player) that has a rule set down by the owners that simply states, "Don't swear on OOC". This is not a freedom of speech issue, this is a forger asking you to be polite to others on our mud, as you don't pay to play here and are thus our rules are not optional. Follow them, despite yourselves.

If you break the rule, punnishment will follow, and I use something much more caustic than soap. Image I don't mean to be crude here, but there really is no debate on the issue. We want a friendly, professional mud. Respect this.

o_o</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Omg, if Gormal cusses, turn him into an elf for a few days.

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How to go from Waelos to Weylarii.

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Krogenar
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Postby Krogenar » Tue Oct 22, 2002 1:59 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Miax:
<B>Lets get down to basics here.

OOC is a public forum on a free game (to the player) that has a rule set down by the owners that simply states, "Don't swear on OOC". This is not a freedom of speech issue, this is a forger asking you to be polite to others on our mud, as you don't pay to play here and are thus our rules are not optional. Follow them, despite yourselves.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said. People sometimes think that freedom of speech has some sort of totem-like power, that over-rules all common sense. Free speech is not an absolute right. For example: If I go to a movie theater, and jump up and yell "Fire! Augh!!! Run for your lives!" As people rush for the door, and some get crushed underfoot, you'd quickly find yourself in jail. To use your freedom of speech for the express purpose of causing harm is not legally protected. Another example: I decide to spread the word of Christ/Allah/Buddha. I buy a truck with a megaphone on the roof, and start driving around residential neighborhoods trying to convert people. That doesn't work either. There are public noise ordinances that must be followed. People have a right to speak, but the volume and time at which they are allowed to speak are ways to curb their excerise of that right.

And this is only for a public forum. If you are in a privately owned forum (like a mud) you must abide by the rules the owners set. No one is forcing us to remain on the mud. If your right to freely swear on a public channel is so dear to you, you're welcome to go someplace else and do it. No one is preventing your right to swear, you can still swear, just not on a public channel.

What the 'pro-swearers' Image really object to, is people calling them on their rude behavior. "Just shut the fuck up and turn off the OOC channel if you don't like it!" The OOC channel is a shared resource, and as such, its content should be monitored.

A related issue is the naming rules on Sojourn. At first, I didn't like the idea. I had to wait a little bit until an immortal approved my name. But on previous muds I've been to, I had to look at people named 'CraziBoi' and 'HackerDude' and 'FoxyChick' or .... 'Merlin'. After playing for a few weeks, I can see it was the right decision to make. Here they are, the immortals, telling people they cannot have ANY name that they want, and in so doing, they've raised the quality of the mud in general. How can a mud that supposedly 'encourages roleplay' not enforce proper name creation. To their credit, the imms put a random name generator into the character creation menus, to make it easier for people to create an RP name. I think the same sort of principle is being applied to online swearing. Maybe if the imms created code to check all OOC content for swear words, and had those words replaced by ridiculous 'non-offensive' words, it would help some uncouth people change their ways.

"You f-cking sh-tfaced motherf-cker, you can just kiss my -ass!" would become "You stinky dumb fop, you can just kiss my hinder!" People would be so embarrassed to speak this way, they might stop. Why they were not embarassed to be speaking like sailors in the first place is a mystery, but still... is it so much to ask that we be respectful of other people's ears?


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- Krogenar
Rausrh
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Postby Rausrh » Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:00 pm

If you can't convey your ideas without swearing, perhaps you need better ideas. Cursing typifies a poor vaca...vocaber...shit, I done mean smart with words.

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Krogenar
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Postby Krogenar » Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:07 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rausrh:
<B>If you can't convey your ideas without swearing, perhaps you need better ideas. Cursing typifies a poor vaca...vocaber...shit, I done mean smart with words.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*snicker* I think you can swear under certain circumstances. If a 500-lb. anvil lands on your toe, you can curse all you like. But if you use swear words to punctuate each breath, then you need to change the way you speak, or be labeled 'low-class'.


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- Krogenar

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