question for windows users

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

question for windows users

Postby Daz » Sun Nov 17, 2002 11:39 pm

now, i just wanna say that i am an avid software collector. what does this mean? it means i have 200+ cd's full of fully functional software that i don't really use, but i enjoy having - just in case.

i have installed several gigabytes of software that i mainly just use cause it looks pretty. let's face it, these things make tons of money for some people, just not me. i like to impress people with my flash creations or make my friend a web site with frontpage or dreamweaver, whatever.

with all of this software coming and going, i am quite sure that my windows XP machine has quite a bit of unused space that is being occupied by unused data. i know about the temp files, defrag, caches, local settings, etc - but is there a really good program out there that anyone can recommend to maybe get rid of unused folders, dll files, hidden install/uninstall progs, whatever.

i appreciate any feedback.

-yours,
p2p broadband abuser.
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Sun Nov 17, 2002 11:40 pm

how bad? on any given day i download between 4-8 gigabytes of software to test and if i like it, i uninstall it and store for future burning, if i don't like, i trash it :P
Xisiqomelir
Sojourner
Posts: 870
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Ixarkon
Contact:

Postby Xisiqomelir » Mon Nov 18, 2002 1:24 pm

And here I was thinking the question would be "Why do you use Windows?".

------------------
"I know you like to believe fairy tales about how rude and unfair evils are, but keep them on your side of Baldur's Gate."
Jegzed
Sojourner
Posts: 1240
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Jegzed » Mon Nov 18, 2002 2:08 pm

There's 4-8GB free software available each day?

Or are you just a thief?

------------------
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Grungar
Sojourner
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Somewhere on the east coast, usually.
Contact:

Postby Grungar » Mon Nov 18, 2002 2:14 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B>There's 4-8GB free software available each day?

Or are you just a thief?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he's counting porn as software Image

- Grungar "English != fun" Forgefire
Gurns
Sojourner
Posts: 554
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Gurns » Mon Nov 18, 2002 5:22 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>i am quite sure that my windows XP machine has quite a bit of unused space that is being occupied by unused data. i know about the temp files, defrag, caches, local settings, etc - but is there a really good program out there that anyone can recommend to maybe get rid of unused folders, dll files, hidden install/uninstall progs, whatever.

i appreciate any feedback.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I figure if you're doing all that, you're not wasting much space. Maybe a couple dozen Meg, max, and what percent of your hard drive is that? Not enough to worry about that.

"System Mechanic" has been getting good reviews. On the basis of your question, I download the trial copy and cleaned a couple machines here. 11 Meg on my machine which I try to keep sorta clean, and 30 Meg on a machine that has never been cleaned. A couple hundred extra registry entries that got cleaned up on my machine, less on the other. I haven't noticed any performance improvement. I haven't noticed anything not working.

If you search for "System Mechanic", you'll find the company's Web site, plus a bunch of reviews. Note that at least one review says that some of what's in System Mechanic is new, but a lot of what's in System Mechanic is a collection of freeware, an easier interface for the freeware, and an easier interface to get to a lot of Windows system settings.
kragt
Sojourner
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2002 5:01 am

Postby kragt » Mon Nov 18, 2002 6:20 pm

Format C:
Install Windows
Lookit all that free space.

------------------
Not just good, good enough.
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Mon Nov 18, 2002 7:07 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B>There's 4-8GB free software available each day?

Or are you just a thief?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sure, there are countless terabytes of software available each day. am i thief? it depends on your definition of it. i would feel i was a thief if i was using something for my own profit, but i am not. i believe that information exists to be shared, not exploited, and as such - i have absolutely no moral qualms with playing with software obtained in any manner.

if i USED this software for any form of profit or gain, i would gladly pay for it. as i do not, i shall not. and don't give me the programmer's/developer's cry of 'but we worked so hard!'

i know what it is like, and i think i only feel pity that an industry built on sharing and growing has delved into a commercial cesspool of corporate greed and profit. you will never get a tear from me that i did not pay 2,500 dollars for a suite of software that i will not use for any form of monetary gain.
Jegzed
Sojourner
Posts: 1240
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Jegzed » Mon Nov 18, 2002 7:25 pm

If you use a program I've worked my ass off for FREE, you steal from ME if you use it without paying me.

You are enjoing MY hard work for free and argue that is good. Fucking idiot.



------------------
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Risaros
Sojourner
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Fillmore Ca USA

Postby Risaros » Mon Nov 18, 2002 7:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B>If you use a program I've worked my ass off for FREE, you steal from ME if you use it without paying me.

You are enjoing MY hard work for free and argue that is good. Fucking idiot.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well then by all means list the software that you have worked on so he can compensate you for it:P




[This message has been edited by Risaros (edited 11-18-2002).]
Yadir
Sojourner
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Lexington, Kentucky, USA

Postby Yadir » Mon Nov 18, 2002 8:05 pm

"The standard of the common thief, 'What can we get away with?' has become the standard for many in the world rather than what our own integrity ought to demand that we do. What has happened to self-respect and personal integrity, which would not permit even entertaining the idea of doing cheap or small things?" - Quoted from a Speech given in 1981
Mplor
Sojourner
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Phoenix

Postby Mplor » Mon Nov 18, 2002 8:09 pm

Seriously, the argument that you aren't using your wareZ for profit or gain is ridiculous. One could similarly argue that it's OK to steal a car as long as you won't be delivering pizzas with it. Without the notions of intellectual property, 99% of the warez out there simply would never have been coded in the first place. Profit drives every single for-profit gaming and application company, even in your fantasy-hippy-digital-fairyland. Jegzed is dead-on here.

Mp

------------------
Rausrh
Sojourner
Posts: 409
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Madison,WI
Contact:

Postby Rausrh » Mon Nov 18, 2002 8:28 pm

Daz, please forward me all of your bank account information, SSN and a copy of your signiture. Just to share the information. Don't worry I won't profit from it.

Oh and I can't wait until I tell the pizza delivery guy i'm not paying for the pizza because I am not using it for any financial gains.

Unless everything you are using is freeware, you're a thief, at least be man enough to admit it.

------------------
Rausrh licks you.
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Mon Nov 18, 2002 9:25 pm

you high and mighty officeworms probably signed over the rights to everything you made to the company you worked for anyway.


blow me.

Image

which of the following did you make with your own sweat, blood, and tears?

Max Payne?
GTA 3?
Age of Mythology?
Half-Life?
Medal of Honor?
Hitman 2?
C&C Renegade?
Soldier of Fortune 2?
Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds?
Warcraft 3?
Battlefield 1942?
3d Studio Max 5?
Poser 5?
Cinema 4d?
Bryce 5?
Ulead Media Studio Pro?
Ulead WebRazor?
Ulead Cool3d?
Ulead PhotoImpact?
Adobe Photoshop?
Adobe Pagemaker?
Adobe Illustrator?
Adobe Premiere?
Windows XP?
Office XP?
Dreamweaver?
Flash MX?
Fireworks?
Maya?
Truespace?


Did you make any of those? That's right, because the economy sucks right now, I am contributing to your financial problems. I forgot, silly me.

Of course, I also forgot being overcharged for every commercially produced product I have bought in the last 5 years.

Price fixing. Faulty products. False advertising. I'll believe in your justice when I get mine.
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Mon Nov 18, 2002 9:27 pm

hey gurns, that shareware you mentioned worked great. i downloaded a serial number for it and fired it up, was pretty nifty.
Risaros
Sojourner
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Fillmore Ca USA

Postby Risaros » Mon Nov 18, 2002 9:34 pm

I buy games whenever i have money, but if i have to crack a game to play with my friends at a lan, i will. I want to go into computer science, i do feel that it is stealing, however do you really want a person to pay full price for a piece of software when all they plan on doing with it is looking at it for a few hours? I know many high school students who have decided what career they want to go into because of stuff they have got off the net.
Jegzed
Sojourner
Posts: 1240
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Jegzed » Mon Nov 18, 2002 9:37 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>you high and mighty officeworms probably signed over the rights to everything you made to the company you worked for anyway.
blow me.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I have not. And the amount of copies sold from my games affects my salary.
If not 90% were pirated, I'd be able to do more than barely surviving.

Its scum like you that makes me a bitter person.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>Battlefield 1942?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, a few former co-workers worked on it.

I doubt you'd have played my games though, its not the taste you seem to have.

/Jegzed, 8.5 years as game programmer/designer and still poor due to piracy.
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Mon Nov 18, 2002 9:38 pm

i could never have afforded to discover an interest in design and image manipulation/editting with the costs of software as un-consumer friendly as they are. and trial/demo crap is just that, crap.

would you want to learn to fly in a plane that had an engine that stopped working after 30 minutes?
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Mon Nov 18, 2002 9:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
/Jegzed, 8.5 years as game programmer/designer and still poor due to piracy.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

/Daz, 8.5 years as a game player/tester and still poor due to commercial corruption.
Jegzed
Sojourner
Posts: 1240
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Jegzed » Mon Nov 18, 2002 9:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
/Daz, 8.5 years as a game player/tester and still poor due to commercial corruption.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And do you steal your food and clothes too, or just your entertainment?



------------------
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Mon Nov 18, 2002 9:50 pm

just my entertainment!
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Postby Sarvis » Mon Nov 18, 2002 9:59 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>i could never have afforded to discover an interest in design and image manipulation/editting with the costs of software as un-consumer friendly as they are. and trial/demo crap is just that, crap.

would you want to learn to fly in a plane that had an engine that stopped working after 30 minutes?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

People who learn to fly in planes pay for the lessons Daz.



------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Mon Nov 18, 2002 10:00 pm

not always true. if you know someone with a plane, they can teach you.

not everyone can afford flight lessons.
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Mon Nov 18, 2002 10:01 pm

come on people, i love this, keep telling me reasons why you KNOW how bad of a person I am. i wanna hear them all.
Todrael
Sojourner
Posts: 1454
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
Location: MI, USA
Contact:

Postby Todrael » Tue Nov 19, 2002 2:30 am

I'm fairly certain that discussion of illegal activities of any kind on the Sojourn BBS are prohibited. No matter what you or I might personally think of the topic, I'm also fairly certain that it is, indeed, illegal at this time.

------------------
-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Postby Sarvis » Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:51 am

Daz,

I don't remember saying you were a bad person. I just think you are trying to justify stealing, yes it is stealing, software. Judging from your answers in Jenera's parenting thread you seem generally to be fairly sensible and would raise a child in many of the same ways I would. Except you seem to think stealing is ok.

Even if you believe it is ok to take software for free, it is still against the law. You are still breaking that law. That's really all there is to the discussion.

As for the flight lessons thing, how many people do you _know_ that are willing to use up a few hundred bucks in airplane fuel to give a buddy a free lesson?

I did receive one free flight lesson, but that was only because my friend let me tag along while he was flying somewhere else. He told me the basics and let me have the wheel for a while. But that was it... I certainly didn't "learn to fly a plane" for free in an hour.

Remember, I never said you were a bad person. You are just trying to justify something that is wrong; which is about as normal as you can get.

------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Tue Nov 19, 2002 6:09 pm

Fine, you can call what I do stealing.

I call what they do to me stealing, too. When these companies fix prices, deceive investors, steal from their employees . . . all of these things are common practices in today's corporate world. The difference between what I do and what they do, is that they can afford to pay the legistlators to change the laws, to justify what they do. To overcharge me for every purchase I have made for the last 10 years is no big deal, but for me to listen to a song without paying for it makes me a criminal. Even if I otherwise buy the CD at a later time, I am still a criminal. Sadly, there exists no legislation to protect me, because I as an individual am worth less to the government than a corporation, which is also by law an individual, but provides the government with more money than I do.

Justification, possibly, but I still do not have, and never shall have, an ounce of guilt in my mind for what I do. I am a contributing member of society, I abide by the laws I believe in, and I pay my taxes like everyone else. But, I feel that dipping my hand into someone else's cookie jar that I filled with my own work is hardly something that merits a feeling of guilt.

I would never, ever, pirate an individual's property. If you, as a person, not a corporation, creates something - I would respect it. But I do not adhere to the perception that a corporate entity merits having 'intellectual property.' A corporation has no intellect, it is a machine that exists to make money. I don't feel the desire to help it make any more money than it already does.

And you have to be pretty thick to believe that piracy affects a company's profits that much. If you, Jegzed, truly think that your income suffers because of piracy, then I have some great oceanfront property in iowa that you can buy. Sitting outside there listening to the ocean can help you get past your misconceptions.
Zoldren
Sojourner
Posts: 1309
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 6:01 am
Location: mt. vernon, il
Contact:

Postby Zoldren » Tue Nov 19, 2002 6:27 pm

do you use zmud?
pay for it?

if not you are gaining entertainment from it and from your own deffinitions would pay for it

------------------
MoM-D
Jegzed
Sojourner
Posts: 1240
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Jegzed » Tue Nov 19, 2002 6:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>
And you have to be pretty thick to believe that piracy affects a company's profits that much. If you, Jegzed, truly think that your income suffers because of piracy, then I have some great oceanfront property in iowa that you can buy. Sitting outside there listening to the ocean can help you get past your misconceptions.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shut the fuck up please about issues you have no clue about.

Or post a report where its proven that not paying for my work affects my wallet.



------------------
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Tue Nov 19, 2002 7:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B> Shut the fuck up please about issues you have no clue about.

Or post a report where its proven that not paying for my work affects my wallet.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

show me where it does.
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Tue Nov 19, 2002 7:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zoldren:
<B>do you use zmud?
pay for it?

if not you are gaining entertainment from it and from your own deffinitions would pay for it

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


no i use mudmaster 2k, which is free and was made for free, to be used for free, and the source code is available for free, to anyone who wants it.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Postby Sarvis » Tue Nov 19, 2002 7:54 pm

Fine, you can call what I do stealing.

It's not me calling it stealing. It's the law that calls it stealing. And that's pretty much what the law is for, to define what is and is not a crime.

I call what they do to me stealing, too. When these companies fix prices, deceive investors, steal from their employees . . . all of these things are common practices in today's corporate world. The difference between what I do and what they do, is that they can afford to pay the legistlators to change the laws, to justify what they do. To overcharge me for every purchase I have made for the last 10 years is no big deal, but for me to listen to a song without paying for it makes me a criminal. Even if I otherwise buy the CD at a later time, I am still a criminal. Sadly, there exists no legislation to protect me, because I as an individual am worth less to the government than a corporation, which is also by law an individual, but provides the government with more money than I do.

Ever hear the expression "two wrongs don't make a right" ? It's interesting though, that you are sure these companies you've never purchased anything from have ripped you off somehow. I wonder if you have _any_ idea how much time and money goes into making a piece of software. My salary on a co-op last summer was $13.50 an hour. I spent the entire 20 weeks creating an installer for the software we were working on. I did a couple other things, but my time was mostly taken up by this. So it's 20 weeks * 40 hours/week * 13.50 $/hr = $10800. That's how much my company paid me _just_ to make an installer. Of course, the average starting salary in my major right now is 54000 per year. Far, far more than I was getting on coop. So this was actually a bargain for them.

Now, that was just the installer. The entire project comprised 7 developers (who spent far more time on the project than I did) and 3 more QA personell. I spent 6 months on the project, and it was half done by the time I was hired... so they probably spent a total of around a year on it. That makes it $54000 * 7 developers = $378000 dollars just to pay the developers to make this software. And you complain that software costs what? A few hundred dollars? Oh, and that's the low estimate... since most of the developers on the project had more impressive titles than Software Engineer I. Remind me again how you are being gouged when you don't even pay a tenth of the softwares value to own it.


I am a contributing member of society...

No, you are not. You are taking something people put hard work, time, and money into and giving nothing in return.

I abide by the laws I believe in

So do most criminals. They just don't believe in enough of the laws.


I would never, ever, pirate an individual's property. If you, as a person, not a corporation, creates something - I would respect it. But I do not adhere to the perception that a corporate entity merits having 'intellectual property.' A corporation has no intellect, it is a machine that exists to make money. I don't feel the desire to help it make any more money than it already does.

So what? You're like Robin Hood now? Justify it all you want, but behind that corporation is a bunch of individuals like Jegzed and I who put our blood, sweat and tears into your software. And we're also the ones who get laid off when the company fails to turn a profit.

And you have to be pretty thick to believe that piracy affects a company's profits that much. If you, Jegzed, truly think that your income suffers because of piracy, then I have some great oceanfront property in iowa that you can buy. Sitting outside there listening to the ocean can help you get past your misconceptions.

You are right that you pirating a piece of software isn't going to have much effect. However there are a few hundred thousand of you out there. All of whom think it's harmless to steal something. All of whom combined are lowering a companies profits when they use software they don't pay for.

If you are this unwilling to pay for things you use, then stick with open source and freeware.



------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Nov 19, 2002 8:07 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
show me where it does.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.bsa.org/usa/policyres/admin/2002-06-10.130.pdf
amolol
Sojourner
Posts: 688
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 5:01 am

Postby amolol » Tue Nov 19, 2002 9:01 pm

start run uninstall exe.

simple as that just say what file as for the hidden folders just right click on the screen and go to options then find the settings portion and toggle the hidden folders off
Waelos
Sojourner
Posts: 499
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Postby Waelos » Tue Nov 19, 2002 9:05 pm

To all of you who have posted here telling Daz what a bad person he is:

If you have a single MP3 downloaded from the net and do not own the CD there is a 99% chance that you're a hypocrite and are just as guilty of theft as he is. So why don't you sit down and enjoy a nice hot cup of shut the fuck up?

Lost

------------------
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Tue Nov 19, 2002 9:14 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kiaransalee:
http://www.bsa.org/usa/policyres/admin/2002-06-10.130.pdf</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

rofl, the business software alliance put that out - of COURSE they say it hurts, just like the recording industry says it hurts.


http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0206/25.software.php

Software bugs are costing the U.S. economy an estimated US$59.5 billion each year, with more than half of the cost borne by end users and the remainder by developers and vendors, according to a new federal study.


------

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20021118-053129-2306r

regarding copyrights -
The Founding Fathers wanted that term to be 14 years, with an additional 14 years if the author were still alive. After 28 years, they figured you'd had your chance to exploit your creation, and now it belonged to the nation at large. That way we would never end up with a system of hereditary privilege, similar to the printers guilds of Renaissance England, who tied up rights to dead authors and tightly controlled what could or could not be printed and who could or could not use literary material.

In America, land of free ideas as well as free people, this would never happen, they said


our forefathers, the people who built this nation said that.

i have not fallen into corruption, society has.
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Tue Nov 19, 2002 9:17 pm

and i realize that i used copyright arguments based around expired copyrights, which do not apply into the software i am 'stealing.' i used the argument to show how the industry is able to buy and manipulate the law in its own favor, and screws over the creators and users in favor of continuing to make a profit.
Zrax
Sojourner
Posts: 593
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Fairborn, OH, USA
Contact:

Postby Zrax » Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:24 pm

Software package A costs 10$

10 people buy it Company makes 100 dollars.

3 people buy it, 7 people steal it Company makes 30 dollars.

Do you think Company makes up the money lost by theft by paying it out of their own pocket? No it is made up through lower wages and increased cost to the real consumer.



------------------
And shepherds we shall be, for Thee my Lord, for Thee.
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand,
that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
We will flow a river forth unto Thee,
and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
In nomine Patris, et Fili, et Spiritu Sancti.
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:28 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
<B>Software package A costs 10$

10 people buy it Company makes 100 dollars.

3 people buy it, 7 people steal it Company makes 30 dollars.

Do you think Company makes up the money lost by theft by paying it out of their own pocket? No it is made up through lower wages and increased cost to the real consumer.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

software package a costs 10$
company charges people 100$
5 people buy it - company makes 500$
3 people steal it who would otherwise have NOT bought it - company loses 0$


I can do math, too.
Zrax
Sojourner
Posts: 593
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Fairborn, OH, USA
Contact:

Postby Zrax » Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:49 pm

You math like much of your logic is tailored to suit your own purpose and excludes people who would have bought it but didn't because the "cracked" version existed. You can say what you want to attempt to justify yourself. However, the bottom line is you are stealing. Stealing is a characteristic of a thief. So you are a thief. The worst part about this is that you probably do nothing constructive at all with the packages you steal, likely hoping from one project to another, feeding off intention and the labor of others rather than making the investment required to create yourself.

You claim that companies are somehow stealing from you, when all they are really doing is creating a service that you have the choice to buy or pass on. You however are taking what they have created against their will and intention.

Personally steal if you want, it really doesn't matter much to me, but at least admit to what you are and not hide behind a veil of self importance.

------------------
And shepherds we shall be, for Thee my Lord, for Thee.
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand,
that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
We will flow a river forth unto Thee,
and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
In nomine Patris, et Fili, et Spiritu Sancti.
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Wed Nov 20, 2002 1:24 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
You math like much of your logic is tailored to suit your own purpose and excludes people who would have bought it but didn't because the "cracked" version existed. You can say what you want to attempt to justify yourself. However, the bottom line is you are stealing. Stealing is a characteristic of a thief. So you are a thief. The worst part about this is that you probably do nothing constructive at all with the packages you steal, likely hoping from one project to another, feeding off intention and the labor of others rather than making the investment required to create yourself.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i told you, if you read, that if i do anything productive i would feel obligated to pay for it. of course i am not doing anything productive, you should maybe read what i write before flaming me as a person and making assumptions about what i do in my life.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">You claim that companies are somehow stealing from you, when all they are really doing is creating a service that you have the choice to buy or pass on. You however are taking what they have created against their will and intention. </font>


i invite you now to read my posts.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>Personally steal if you want, it really doesn't matter much to me, but at least admit to what you are and not hide behind a veil of self importance.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

if it really didn't matter to you, why are you here flaming me. it really doesn't matter to me, either, but admit what you are and don't hide behind a veil of ignorance.
Rausrh
Sojourner
Posts: 409
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Madison,WI
Contact:

Postby Rausrh » Wed Nov 20, 2002 3:47 pm

Daz,
Do you also steal a Porche, but just leave it in your garage? Maybe sit in it once or twice? That isn't stealing either right? I mean come on the thing only cost like $20,000 to build and they're selling it for $80,000. What a rip off. Thye aren't losing any money because you wouldn't have bought one anyways right? And all the money goes right to the company. What about the lowly factory workers that build these cars?
It's not stealing, it's Patriotism!

*gags*


------------------
Rausrh licks you.
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Wed Nov 20, 2002 6:19 pm

you fail the realize the difference between software and material goods.


if i steal a car, i take property that could otherwise have been sold to make a profit.

software has no material existence, and when you 'steal' software, you do not physically hinder them from selling that item to an actual buyer.

if i download a program that i would not have paid for, then there is no change for either me or them. i merely have something i would not otherwise have had. they would otherwise not have had my money, and they still do not. they still have the software and should a buyer seek to purchase it, my 'stealing' that software has not prevented him from doing so.

if i stole a porsche, then they would have 1 less car to sell, and no matter what i tried to use as justification, i have hampered their ability to turn a profit. this situation can not truly be compared to software.

a more able comparison would be a book.

if i steal a book, they lose money. since someone else would have maybe bought it.

but what happens if i go read the book at a library? the library purchased that copy of the book, and i am using it without paying them. in fact, many people after me will read this book without paying for it.
are we thieving for reading a book at a library without paying for it?
Zrax
Sojourner
Posts: 593
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Fairborn, OH, USA
Contact:

Postby Zrax » Wed Nov 20, 2002 6:38 pm

A better example is going to a book store, photocopying a book that is for sale on the shelf and walking out.

------------------
And shepherds we shall be, for Thee my Lord, for Thee.
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand,
that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
We will flow a river forth unto Thee,
and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
In nomine Patris, et Fili, et Spiritu Sancti.
Rausrh
Sojourner
Posts: 409
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Madison,WI
Contact:

Postby Rausrh » Wed Nov 20, 2002 6:38 pm

Let's say you're my neighbor, and you have cable. Me, I dont have cable. I won't pay for it. I decide to tap into the cable running to your house and get my cable for free. Hurt no one right? Cable company can still sell to other customers. You don't mind paying for my cable do you?

------------------
Rausrh licks you.
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Wed Nov 20, 2002 8:17 pm

i don't pay for cable. my roommate works for comcast. i don't pay for my internet either, i still have my free employee account active.
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Wed Nov 20, 2002 8:18 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
<B>A better example is going to a book store, photocopying a book that is for sale on the shelf and walking out.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

as long as you pay for the photocopying, then yes, that is a perfect illustration of everyone coming out on top.

i knew you would see it my way!
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Postby Sarvis » Wed Nov 20, 2002 8:27 pm

Except for the author who misses out on some of his royalties, the bookstore who misses out on a sale and the cashier who gets fired for not calling the police on you...

------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Wed Nov 20, 2002 8:30 pm

hey, you win some you lose some, it isn't a perfect world. they would probably have let a serial rapist free to imprison me for copying a book, anyway.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Postby Sarvis » Wed Nov 20, 2002 9:03 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B> software package a costs 10$
company charges people 100$
5 people buy it - company makes 500$
3 people steal it who would otherwise have NOT bought it - company loses 0$


I can do math, too.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh... missed this one last night...

Except that your math is wrong. You need to reverse the charge for the software and the cost to make it. Or did you not read how much it costs to create the software in my earlier post?

The _only_ thing that makes software profitable is that once it is made you can sell an infinite number of copies with minimal extra cost. A _good_ (anyone but Microsoft) company will give away future versions and bug fixes to anyone who paid for a license without further charge. Though this requires a couple engineers working on bugfixes occasionally.

Seriously, if you would not pay for it then why are you stealing it? If you don't want to buy something, then you must not want it all that much. If you don't want it, then you're breaking laws for no apparent reason... or am I missing something here?



------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.

Return to “S3 General Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 29 guests