<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Krogenar:
<B> America uses more resources than other countries, that's true.
America also produces much more agriculturally than any other nation - we basically feed the world.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
w00t?!
sure americans produce more food than any other country, still, ye aint feedin no world, son, ye just aint. basicly american agricultural production goes into feeding fat children with expensive toys.
most (industrialized) countries has a higher percent of their BNP into aiding the poor countries. most countries pay their dues to international agreements and common organizations (the UN for one).
the gain of american production goes to uncle sam, paying the price seems some way not be uncle sams buisness.
/fil
why
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by fildur:
<B> phew, the wwii-rant, shouldnt even bother, but the us did nothing b4 the japaneese attacked pearlharbour, the main us war was in the pasific etc, yall know bout that. yall know bout the terror bombings of dresden etc, etc...
no, we aint owe you nuffin for wwii.
yah sure im no jew, but so what. the fact that half our continent was bombed down to 1 ft high is not justifiable by the fact that there was sme madman running around "somwhere" about there...
/fil</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
thats just too funny. Which half of the continent was that? The half that hitler already conquered, or the other half that, hitler already conquered... But england was gonna come back and win it for ya!
You owe us everything for wwII, and you know it. Maybe that huge debt is what causes your resentment of the United States.
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
[This message has been edited by thanuk (edited 11-26-2002).]
<B> phew, the wwii-rant, shouldnt even bother, but the us did nothing b4 the japaneese attacked pearlharbour, the main us war was in the pasific etc, yall know bout that. yall know bout the terror bombings of dresden etc, etc...
no, we aint owe you nuffin for wwii.
yah sure im no jew, but so what. the fact that half our continent was bombed down to 1 ft high is not justifiable by the fact that there was sme madman running around "somwhere" about there...
/fil</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
thats just too funny. Which half of the continent was that? The half that hitler already conquered, or the other half that, hitler already conquered... But england was gonna come back and win it for ya!
You owe us everything for wwII, and you know it. Maybe that huge debt is what causes your resentment of the United States.
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
[This message has been edited by thanuk (edited 11-26-2002).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by fildur:
<B>
most (industrialized) countries has a higher percent of their BNP into aiding the poor countries. most countries pay their dues to international agreements and common organizations (the UN for one).
/fil</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
lets see, so if your country gives 10% of 1 million, and our country gives 1% of 10 billion, who is giving more? I dunno maybe the numbers change when you convert it to metric units, or maybe your just blinded by nationalism. As for paying for the UN, we put up most of the guns, most of the planes, most of the tanks, and most of the overall muscle that enforce those international agreements. We also host the UN and built a big fancy building to put it in. Our dues must have gone to pay the traffic and parking tickets left unresolved by the delegates from your country.
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
<B>
most (industrialized) countries has a higher percent of their BNP into aiding the poor countries. most countries pay their dues to international agreements and common organizations (the UN for one).
/fil</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
lets see, so if your country gives 10% of 1 million, and our country gives 1% of 10 billion, who is giving more? I dunno maybe the numbers change when you convert it to metric units, or maybe your just blinded by nationalism. As for paying for the UN, we put up most of the guns, most of the planes, most of the tanks, and most of the overall muscle that enforce those international agreements. We also host the UN and built a big fancy building to put it in. Our dues must have gone to pay the traffic and parking tickets left unresolved by the delegates from your country.
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
[QUOTE]Originally posted by fildur:
[B] phew, the wwii-rant, shouldnt even bother, but the us did nothing b4 the japaneese attacked pearlharbour, the main us war was in the pasific etc, yall know bout that. yall know bout the terror bombings of dresden etc, etc...
didn't the US support the allies with supplies before they got into the war?
[B] phew, the wwii-rant, shouldnt even bother, but the us did nothing b4 the japaneese attacked pearlharbour, the main us war was in the pasific etc, yall know bout that. yall know bout the terror bombings of dresden etc, etc...
didn't the US support the allies with supplies before they got into the war?
-
Grungar
- Sojourner
- Posts: 967
- Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Somewhere on the east coast, usually.
- Contact:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by sok:
didn't the US support the allies with supplies before they got into the war?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The 'Lend/Lease Act' was only a myth, Sok. Pure American propaganda, revisionist history. Ask anyone. The European countries could have handled the Third Reich all alone, one hand tied behind their back. Hell, just look at France. Or Poland. They were doing just fine, until we stepped in, right? There was absolutely no need for the US to help out in the European theatre. There was no need for the US to get involved in the war whatsoever, other than our self-serving, oil-grubbing, megalomaniacal interests.
- Grungar "The word 'Allies' when used with respect to World War II is obviously synonymous with 'Americans'" Forgefire
didn't the US support the allies with supplies before they got into the war?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The 'Lend/Lease Act' was only a myth, Sok. Pure American propaganda, revisionist history. Ask anyone. The European countries could have handled the Third Reich all alone, one hand tied behind their back. Hell, just look at France. Or Poland. They were doing just fine, until we stepped in, right? There was absolutely no need for the US to help out in the European theatre. There was no need for the US to get involved in the war whatsoever, other than our self-serving, oil-grubbing, megalomaniacal interests.
- Grungar "The word 'Allies' when used with respect to World War II is obviously synonymous with 'Americans'" Forgefire
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Krogenar:
As for slavery, the U.S. was the first modern nation to outlaw it - and we fought a civil war over it.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is from my first hit off the Web, so take that for what it's worth:
1823 - Slavery is abolished in Chile.
1824 - Slavery is abolished in Central America.
1829 - Slavery is abolished in Mexico.
1831 - Slavery is abolished in Bolivia.
1838 - Slavery made totally illegal in Great Britain.
1848 - Slavery is again abolished in France.
1854 - Slavery is abolished in Venezuela.
December 18, 1865 - The 13th amendment to the U.S. constitution abolishing slavery is signed into law
(list partially edited)
And if we needed to fight a war to abolish slavery, that's hardly a good sign.
And the thing about laws is, they partially arise in response to circumstances. So you might say "this country has never abolished slavery" or "that country didn't abolish slavery until so late". The followup question is, did they ever _have_ slavery? So I wouldn't be surprised if, say, Switzerland _still_ didn't have a law prohibiting slavery. No idea if they do or not, I've just never heard of slavery in Switzerland and it's frequently used as an example of a particularly civilized place. (With certain exceptions, but that's a different thread.)
genocide: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
From everything I hear, many Native Americans and some historians are convinced that the U.S. government practiced genocide practically from the beginning, pretty much up to the present, and these people will use the term regularly. Strictly speaking, by the above definition, I would not use that term in that context. But it was government policy to forcibly relocate various tribes to reservations a great distance away from their original villages, sometimes under conditions in which a large percentage of them could and did die during the trip... I believe we now call that "ethnic cleansing".
Many Native Americans and some historians are convinced that smallpox was deliberately used as a weapon. The only documentation of deliberate intent, that I see on the Web, predates the U.S. by a few decades. You may find this discussion by historians of some interest:
http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~west/threads/disc-smallpox.html
There are numerous books on the subject.
An interesting question for y'all: What has historical period to do with all this? Slavery hasn't always been seen as immoral. The forced removal of the Native Americans was viewed with general approval by the U.S. population of the time. I dunno if, in that period, the deliberate use of disease as a weapon would have been seen as evil or not. What do you think?
[This message has been edited by Gurns (edited 11-26-2002).]
As for slavery, the U.S. was the first modern nation to outlaw it - and we fought a civil war over it.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is from my first hit off the Web, so take that for what it's worth:
1823 - Slavery is abolished in Chile.
1824 - Slavery is abolished in Central America.
1829 - Slavery is abolished in Mexico.
1831 - Slavery is abolished in Bolivia.
1838 - Slavery made totally illegal in Great Britain.
1848 - Slavery is again abolished in France.
1854 - Slavery is abolished in Venezuela.
December 18, 1865 - The 13th amendment to the U.S. constitution abolishing slavery is signed into law
(list partially edited)
And if we needed to fight a war to abolish slavery, that's hardly a good sign.
And the thing about laws is, they partially arise in response to circumstances. So you might say "this country has never abolished slavery" or "that country didn't abolish slavery until so late". The followup question is, did they ever _have_ slavery? So I wouldn't be surprised if, say, Switzerland _still_ didn't have a law prohibiting slavery. No idea if they do or not, I've just never heard of slavery in Switzerland and it's frequently used as an example of a particularly civilized place. (With certain exceptions, but that's a different thread.)
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I'm not aware of any time in America's history in which we practiced genocide, or used small pox as a weapon. Please show me when and where these events occured.</font>
genocide: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
From everything I hear, many Native Americans and some historians are convinced that the U.S. government practiced genocide practically from the beginning, pretty much up to the present, and these people will use the term regularly. Strictly speaking, by the above definition, I would not use that term in that context. But it was government policy to forcibly relocate various tribes to reservations a great distance away from their original villages, sometimes under conditions in which a large percentage of them could and did die during the trip... I believe we now call that "ethnic cleansing".
Many Native Americans and some historians are convinced that smallpox was deliberately used as a weapon. The only documentation of deliberate intent, that I see on the Web, predates the U.S. by a few decades. You may find this discussion by historians of some interest:
http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~west/threads/disc-smallpox.html
There are numerous books on the subject.
An interesting question for y'all: What has historical period to do with all this? Slavery hasn't always been seen as immoral. The forced removal of the Native Americans was viewed with general approval by the U.S. population of the time. I dunno if, in that period, the deliberate use of disease as a weapon would have been seen as evil or not. What do you think?
[This message has been edited by Gurns (edited 11-26-2002).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>"Europeans actively used disease as germ warfare in the 18th and 19th cent"
thanks Gurns, thats what we were looking for!</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please, if you're going to flame, leave my name out of it. The full quote is "the common wisdom, with which I diagree, has it that Europeans actively used disease as germ warfare..."
<B>"Europeans actively used disease as germ warfare in the 18th and 19th cent"
thanks Gurns, thats what we were looking for!</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please, if you're going to flame, leave my name out of it. The full quote is "the common wisdom, with which I diagree, has it that Europeans actively used disease as germ warfare..."
you are right, my apologies. i had just gotten out of bed, and was a bit befuddled by the thread and misread the work. when you are tired, commas just don't work properly.
in other news:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/South/11/26/cuban.boy/
i hate refugees and illegal immigrants. i really, really do. i am from florida, and i hate the impact their culture has on the inner cities. you want racist? while we attempt to learn and live with tolerant policies, these uneducated thugs with the ability to swim come over and perpetuate hate crimes against the people who are allowing them to live here.
then people want to cry to me about Cuba's status as a backwater dump that american's have a duty to protect and nourish because 200 years ago some guy on a raft wiped his ass with a fern leaf there and killed a dung beetle.
however, when we TRY to do something to make their country a better place and keep them the fuck out of our country, we are intrusive assholes.
foreign policy and all of the crap that comes with it make me want to put my head through a wall.
i say we blow nigeria into smithereens with some form of holocaust size bombs or bigger, and then, when its nothing but farmland, send the damn cubans over there to colonize it themselves and let them wage war with the muslims, too. hopefully we can accelerate the process of these primitive 'tribes' wiping themselves into extinction. while we are at it, lets use cuba as a prison nation for violent criminals and repeat sex offenders.
in other news:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/South/11/26/cuban.boy/
i hate refugees and illegal immigrants. i really, really do. i am from florida, and i hate the impact their culture has on the inner cities. you want racist? while we attempt to learn and live with tolerant policies, these uneducated thugs with the ability to swim come over and perpetuate hate crimes against the people who are allowing them to live here.
then people want to cry to me about Cuba's status as a backwater dump that american's have a duty to protect and nourish because 200 years ago some guy on a raft wiped his ass with a fern leaf there and killed a dung beetle.
however, when we TRY to do something to make their country a better place and keep them the fuck out of our country, we are intrusive assholes.
foreign policy and all of the crap that comes with it make me want to put my head through a wall.
i say we blow nigeria into smithereens with some form of holocaust size bombs or bigger, and then, when its nothing but farmland, send the damn cubans over there to colonize it themselves and let them wage war with the muslims, too. hopefully we can accelerate the process of these primitive 'tribes' wiping themselves into extinction. while we are at it, lets use cuba as a prison nation for violent criminals and repeat sex offenders.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B> thats just too funny. Which half of the continent was that? The half that hitler already conquered, or the other half that, hitler already conquered...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
the main bombings of germany in the spring of 45(and austria, and hungary etc)were directed at dwellings of common people, civilians. yes, you killed like 3 times more ppl than were killed in hiroshima were killed in theese bombings. the necisity of the bombings are highly questioned.
just as the serb ppl wasnt monica lewinsky, the common german wasnt adolf hitler...
/fil
<B> thats just too funny. Which half of the continent was that? The half that hitler already conquered, or the other half that, hitler already conquered...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
the main bombings of germany in the spring of 45(and austria, and hungary etc)were directed at dwellings of common people, civilians. yes, you killed like 3 times more ppl than were killed in hiroshima were killed in theese bombings. the necisity of the bombings are highly questioned.
just as the serb ppl wasnt monica lewinsky, the common german wasnt adolf hitler...
/fil
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>what fucking hypocrisy.
you want america to stay out of iraq's war, but you CRY that we didn't step into ww2 the moment the europeans were getting beat up by the local bully?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
plz learn to read.
im just pointing out facts. fact is that the us has nothing whatsoever against regiemes on the far right flank. theres a fact that the us has never had a principal view that they shouldnt support regiemes that opresses their own ppl, even killing them. its a fact that the us has been supporting such regiemes. so, whos the hypocrit?
/fil
<B>what fucking hypocrisy.
you want america to stay out of iraq's war, but you CRY that we didn't step into ww2 the moment the europeans were getting beat up by the local bully?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
plz learn to read.
im just pointing out facts. fact is that the us has nothing whatsoever against regiemes on the far right flank. theres a fact that the us has never had a principal view that they shouldnt support regiemes that opresses their own ppl, even killing them. its a fact that the us has been supporting such regiemes. so, whos the hypocrit?
/fil
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by fildur:
<B> the main bombings of germany in the spring of 45(and austria, and hungary etc)were directed at dwellings of common people, civilians. yes, you killed like 3 times more ppl than were killed in hiroshima were killed in theese bombings. the necisity of the bombings are highly questioned.
just as the serb ppl wasnt monica lewinsky, the common german wasnt adolf hitler...
/fil </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Were Austria and Hungary under German control at the time of the bombings? Yes. I'm sorry that people died, but that is what happens during WAR. You can take the number of people who died in these bombings, multiply it by 10, subtract the number of Americans that died during world war 2, Add the number of Europeans that died fighting Hitler's army, and the answer is: We still saved your ass.
So lets review, Fildur. You want industrial production, but without waste products like co2. You want a high percentage of that industrial production to be given away to poor nations for free. And finally, you want the U.S. to fight wars without killing people or blowing up buildings. Perhaps a reality check is in order.
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
<B> the main bombings of germany in the spring of 45(and austria, and hungary etc)were directed at dwellings of common people, civilians. yes, you killed like 3 times more ppl than were killed in hiroshima were killed in theese bombings. the necisity of the bombings are highly questioned.
just as the serb ppl wasnt monica lewinsky, the common german wasnt adolf hitler...
/fil </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Were Austria and Hungary under German control at the time of the bombings? Yes. I'm sorry that people died, but that is what happens during WAR. You can take the number of people who died in these bombings, multiply it by 10, subtract the number of Americans that died during world war 2, Add the number of Europeans that died fighting Hitler's army, and the answer is: We still saved your ass.
So lets review, Fildur. You want industrial production, but without waste products like co2. You want a high percentage of that industrial production to be given away to poor nations for free. And finally, you want the U.S. to fight wars without killing people or blowing up buildings. Perhaps a reality check is in order.
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gurns:
<B>
Many Native Americans and some historians are convinced that smallpox was deliberately used as a weapon. The only documentation of deliberate intent, that I see on the Web, predates the U.S. by a few decades. You may find this discussion by historians of some interest:
http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~west/threads/disc-smallpox.html
There are numerous books on the subject.
[This message has been edited by Gurns (edited 11-26-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know in Canada, this sort of germ warfare was used. There was an quarantine area in central canada set up for newly arrived individuals. The indian affairs minister at the time sent a lovley aid package to the norhtern innuit and other aboriginals including the blankets that were used in this quarantine centre.
It is a commonly believed in Canada that we settled the west peacefully and we treat our native citizens better than other countries. We are no better than the States or Australia. Our push westward was not as violent as say the American west, but it was not done without a few hitches. One of the most ironic figures I encountered in canadian history was Duncan Campbell Scott. Many of his poems invoke the lament of the natives, and their lost way of life and their almost inevidible excttincion, yet he was Minister of Indian Affairs for quite some time and was in a position to change some of the policies....but I digress, i do not even remember the point of this particular post anymore...
WOOT! First break at work and only took one call so far.....
------------------
Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.
<B>
Many Native Americans and some historians are convinced that smallpox was deliberately used as a weapon. The only documentation of deliberate intent, that I see on the Web, predates the U.S. by a few decades. You may find this discussion by historians of some interest:
http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~west/threads/disc-smallpox.html
There are numerous books on the subject.
[This message has been edited by Gurns (edited 11-26-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know in Canada, this sort of germ warfare was used. There was an quarantine area in central canada set up for newly arrived individuals. The indian affairs minister at the time sent a lovley aid package to the norhtern innuit and other aboriginals including the blankets that were used in this quarantine centre.
It is a commonly believed in Canada that we settled the west peacefully and we treat our native citizens better than other countries. We are no better than the States or Australia. Our push westward was not as violent as say the American west, but it was not done without a few hitches. One of the most ironic figures I encountered in canadian history was Duncan Campbell Scott. Many of his poems invoke the lament of the natives, and their lost way of life and their almost inevidible excttincion, yet he was Minister of Indian Affairs for quite some time and was in a position to change some of the policies....but I digress, i do not even remember the point of this particular post anymore...
WOOT! First break at work and only took one call so far.....
------------------
Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.
As long as they leave the US out of it, let Darwinism take its course. Its tragic yes, but can you blame the US for the cause of it? no.
Did we have slavery in the past? Yes, were they mostly from Africa? Yes. Was slavery common in Africa at the time? Yes. When a war was won, the victors made the conquered their slaves. We among others just gave them a market to sell them, rather than have to feed them.
Was it right? no, but it was cultural there as well as here at that time. Is it now? no. was it skin color based there? no, it was common in the ancient world in general for the victor to take slaves from the conquered. (see Roman Empire, and for that matter pretty much any ancient empire).
I just wish everyone could mind their own business, and "do unto others, as you would have them do unto you". But everyone seems to feel they have to either bring others into their struggle, or involve themselves in others struggles.
On the Dresden thing, I'm pretty sure the British high command was the order giver on that one, it was just the US 8th airforce among others who carried it out.
And civilian bombing has never done anything but hindered strategic objectives.. see "the Battle of Britain". If Germany had continued their strategic bombing, and attacking of air bases, likely the battle would have been won by Germany. Unfortunately for them, a botched bombing run hitting a civilian target and the press that followed convinced Hitler that "the Blitz" would break the English resolve. Oops, his bad...
Toplack
------------------
Did we have slavery in the past? Yes, were they mostly from Africa? Yes. Was slavery common in Africa at the time? Yes. When a war was won, the victors made the conquered their slaves. We among others just gave them a market to sell them, rather than have to feed them.
Was it right? no, but it was cultural there as well as here at that time. Is it now? no. was it skin color based there? no, it was common in the ancient world in general for the victor to take slaves from the conquered. (see Roman Empire, and for that matter pretty much any ancient empire).
I just wish everyone could mind their own business, and "do unto others, as you would have them do unto you". But everyone seems to feel they have to either bring others into their struggle, or involve themselves in others struggles.
On the Dresden thing, I'm pretty sure the British high command was the order giver on that one, it was just the US 8th airforce among others who carried it out.
And civilian bombing has never done anything but hindered strategic objectives.. see "the Battle of Britain". If Germany had continued their strategic bombing, and attacking of air bases, likely the battle would have been won by Germany. Unfortunately for them, a botched bombing run hitting a civilian target and the press that followed convinced Hitler that "the Blitz" would break the English resolve. Oops, his bad...
Toplack
------------------
Return to “S3 General Discussion Archive”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 29 guests