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Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:05 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xisiqomelir:
<B> Ok, here are some intra-American statistics.

(from http://www.amfire.com/restrict.htm )
Each State in The USA is an On-Going Political Experiment


Let's compare the six states with the MOST restrictions against honest firearms owners to the six states with the LEAST restrictions against honest firearms ownership.


The states and areas with the most restrictions against firearms ownership


(murder rates per 100,000 in 1991: Figures from the FBI.


California 12.7 per 100,000
Illinois 11.3 per 100,000
Washington, D.C. 80.6 per 100,000
Maryland 11.7 per 100,000
Michigan 10.8 per 100,000
New York 14.2 per 100,000


The states and areas with the least restrictions against firearms ownership


(murder rates per 100,000 in 1991: Figures from the FBI.


Idaho 1.8 per 100,000
Iowa 2.0 per 100,000
Maine 1.2 per 100,000
Montana 2.6 per 100,000
North Dakota 1.1 per 100,000
South Dakota 1.7 per 100,000

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Biggest flaw in those statistics I see are they don't take into account the overcrowding situations in the states with the high murder counts. That many human beings grouped together will almost always create an inhospitable environment. Hardly an even comparison.
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:20 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
Hardly an even comparison.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The thing is, this is hardly a laboratory environment. I doubt I could find a duplicate New York and loosen the gun control there so we could have a classic "only one variable changed" scientific experiment.

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Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Thu Dec 05, 2002 7:53 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tesil2:
<B> Yea...ignore him like everyone else does. He knows he's an uneducated nobody from some piss-ant little country.

Enjoy!

(Waiting oh so anxiously for the reply where he touts his made up degrees and other such crap)

[This message has been edited by Tesil2 (edited 12-04-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's right. I have an Msc in computer science and do R&D on signalling protocols for the largest telecoms company in the world. I'd ask yours, but seeing as how you are incapable of posting anything other than inane 3 sentence messages, I pretty much know already.


[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 12-05-2002).]
Tesil2
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Postby Tesil2 » Thu Dec 05, 2002 8:56 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B> That's right. I have an Msc in computer science and do R&D on signalling protocols for the largest telecoms company in the world. I'd ask yours, but seeing as how you are incapable of posting anything other than inane 3 sentence messages, I pretty much know already.


[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 12-05-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what I thought....same useless shit you always come back with....maybe when YOU can post something even remotely interesting people will quit slamming you like they always do. And yes...I'm smarter than you and don't have to post 50 lines of crap to get my point across little one. Keep dreaming about having anything resembling a life. Shmuck.

Oh...and go ahead and ignore the post by Thanuk above where you got owned so severly....I knew you wouldn't respond to it....lol.




[This message has been edited by Tesil2 (edited 12-05-2002).]
Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Thu Dec 05, 2002 9:00 am

"The thing is, this is hardly a laboratory environment. I doubt I could find a duplicate New York and loosen the gun control there so we could have a classic "only one variable changed" scientific experiment."

No, but you could compare major cities. Compare a major city in Florida to a major city in California for example. The two states have many similarities, but as I mentioned earlier, Florida has much less restrictive weapon carry laws.

This page has more relevant numbers IMO http://www.amfire.com/ccw.htm

It's state by state so you can compare states with heavy urban areas with and without unrestrictive CCW access, though it doesn't account for some anomalies, ie Vermont has one district without CCWs where the crime rate is MUCH higher than elsewhere. Since these statistics are only a snapshot, all they really do is show that gun control is not correlated to a low crime rate and unrestrictive weapon carry laws are not correlated to a higher crime rate. But that's still an important point to make. In any case, most analyses of guns and crime rate pale in comparison to John Lott's study. Anyone serious about this subject should really take a look at the book or original research study. The examination of areas over time actually allows it to draw firm conclusions about the causal relationship of less restrictive weapon carry to lower crime rates.

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Postby gordex » Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:40 pm

Cherza: What is your issue with America and Americans? What did America do to you? If you think your people and government is superior, then why did we have to kick your ass to prove otherwise? Last time I checked, each country in europe, is ruled by some form of government that is not a monarchy, of which each is corrupt in their own way.

Thanuk: The only reason why we "lost" in Vietnam is because we weren't trying to win a war.

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Gordex - Gordex Travel Agency

[This message has been edited by gordex (edited 12-05-2002).]
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:57 pm

My problem isn't with people in particular. It's with your foreign policy. Individually I can deal with most of you just fine, but the moment I see what your government does in the world it makes me sick. Self-righteous, arrogant and self-serving are words that come to mind. The world isn't your playground, international agreements are not things you ignore whenever it suits you and it is completely wrong to meddle with other countries' foreign affairs.

In case you didn't know, monarchies here have no power whatsoever anymore as we are all ruled by parliaments which are formed from many political parties. As a matter of fact monarchies disgust me. They are filthy rich with money they stole over the backs of hard working people over the centuries, and I am as vehement against them as I am against your aggressive imperialist foreign policy.
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Postby Gerad » Thu Dec 05, 2002 1:05 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>My problem isn't with people in particular. It's with your foreign policy. Individually I can deal with most of you just fine, but the moment I see what your government does in the world it makes me sick. Self-righteous, arrogant and self-serving are words that come to mind. The world isn't your playground, international agreements are not things you ignore whenever it suits you and it is completely wrong to meddle with other countries' foreign affairs.

In case you didn't know, monarchies here have no power whatsoever anymore as we are all ruled by parliaments which are formed from many political parties. As a matter of fact monarchies disgust me. They are filthy rich with money they stole over the backs of hard working people over the centuries, and I am as vehement against them as I am against your aggressive imperialist foreign policy.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your just jealous.

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Postby cherzra » Thu Dec 05, 2002 1:21 pm

Another inane comeback. You never address any points I bring up. It probably comes with that innate superiority you are born with - you don't have to answer anyone who points out the horrible flaws in your policy, because you are right to begin with.

And I watch in amazement as your government spends so much money trying to find out time and time again why so many other countries don't like you. Today again, on cnn.com. Maybe it's because of attitudes like yours. Try looking in the mirror.
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Postby Ofren » Thu Dec 05, 2002 1:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>My problem isn't with people in particular. It's with your foreign policy.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bullshit. Eat your own words:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
<B>I'm all in favot of more guns in the US. I hope everyone over 10 gets one issued by the govermnent. Preferably a fully automatic machine gun.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This statement has nothing to do with the foreign policy of the American government. It's just pure anti-American sentiment, plain and simple. Don't try to dodge the issue by dressing it up as some enlightened policy argument against the Bush administration's disgusting foreign policy (one on which a majority of Americans would probably agree with you anyway).

You want to hate Americans? Fine. Whatever your reasons are, fine. Just admit that you hate Americans, or what they represent, or their wealth or their greed or their stupidity or whatever the REAL reason is you hate them, instead of hiding behind some bogus completely unrelated reason which is designed only to make you look like you have the moral high ground.

On the other hand, if you really DO believe that the only anti-American feelings you have are related to American foreign policy, then maybe you ought to smell what you're shovelling.
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Postby cherzra » Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:01 pm

This discussion started with guns, and has long since shifted to your foreign policy. You're just too stupid to see the two points as separate and think you can take statements from an old post and compare them with something totally different. I'll summarize it for you and try to keep it simple.

This was my original post: any idiot who advocates free availability of guns under the guise that "it's their personal right" or "guns don't kill people, people do", should see their family shot by some moron who feels the same way - maybe then they'll realize they are wrong.

Since Gordex asked why I think about the US the way I do, I posted another message. This was roughly what it said: your foreign policy is so full of shit that I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. It's arrogant, selfish, greedy and short-sighted, thinking it can ignore the environment, fair trade, common sense and any international agreement while enforcing your own will upon others as you see fit while pretending to serve freedom and peace everywhere.

Hard to discern between the two, isn't it? And it must be SO hard to explain why you think you have the god-given right to fuck with anyone and anything just because you think you are "better" than everyone else. And don't give me some bullshit "because we can" reason, because that just proves you have all the vices I mentioned above and are a bottom-dwelling lowlife.

So go on, explain me who made you god.
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Postby Sartorix » Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
And I watch in amazement as your government spends so much money trying to find out time and time again why so many other countries don't like you. Today again, on cnn.com. Maybe it's because of attitudes like yours. Try looking in the mirror.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This intrigued me slightly so I did a little research, and then some math.
As it turns out the Netherlands national debt is equal to about 40.3% of its Gross Domestic Product.
The US national debt is equal to about 8.6% of its Gross Domestic Product.

Looks like we can afford it.

edit: I cant' spell Image
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Disco

[This message has been edited by Sartorix (edited 12-05-2002).]
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:21 pm

... and in what way is that relevant to the discussion on whether or not you can justify your foreign policy?
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Postby oteb » Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:28 pm

Cherzra you are hopeless romantic thinking that in politics there are can or should be rules based on morality.

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You raise a level!
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:30 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oteb:
<B>Cherzra you are hopeless romantic

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Comedy: Gold

That's the second one this thread.

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Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"
Ofren
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Postby Ofren » Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:52 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>This discussion started with guns, and has long since shifted to your foreign policy. You're just too stupid to see the two points as separate and think you can take statements from an old post and compare them with something totally different.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course, that's the problem. We're all just too stupid for the intellect of the mighty Cherzra. What a brilliant argument. I guess it makes things nice and simple in your world, though. You clearly missed the thrust of my post. Maybe you should go re-read it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
This was my original post: any idiot who advocates free availability of guns under the guise that "it's their personal right" or "guns don't kill people, people do", should see their family shot by some moron who feels the same way - maybe then they'll realize they are wrong.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shall I quote your words again? "I'm all in favot of more guns in the US. I hope everyone over 10 gets one issued by the govermnent. Preferably a fully automatic machine gun."

Now. Take a breath. Read those words. Re-read them.

"I'm all in favot of more guns in the US. I hope everyone over 10 gets one issued by the govermnent. Preferably a fully automatic machine gun."

This has nothing to do with "any idiot who advocates free availability of guns". This says "I hope every American is given a gun so that he/she can blow away every other American." Or, if you really want to try to play that game, the implication according to the explanation provided in your latest post is that every American is an idiot who advocates free availability of guns. Either way, it has nothing to do with a policy argument (about guns OR foreign policy). Because if you believe that every American thinks "Guns are great!", I once again encourage you to smell what you're shovelling.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
And it must be SO hard to explain why you think you have the god-given right to fuck with anyone and anything just because you think you are "better" than everyone else. And don't give me some bullshit "because we can" reason, because that just proves you have all the vices I mentioned above and are a bottom-dwelling lowlife.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed the part of my post where I stated my belief that the majority of Americans (those who pay attention to US foreign policy, anyway, which admittedly is not as many as should) AGREE WITH YOU THAT [MANY ELEMENTS OF] US FOREIGN POLICY (especially Bush's) ARE A CROCK OF SHIT.

Geez. You really should try to get off your anti-American horse and hold in check the need to prove your intellectual and moral superiority over the entire BBS for a second, for just one second, and read and think about what other people write, before firing off a knee-jerk response.

I wonder - have you ever even been to the U.S.? Or are you basing your entire assumptions about Americans on the aforementioned shyte foreign policy of the U.S. and stoned American tourists in Amsterdam?

Sigh, two posts in one day. Far too many.

[edited for typos and to clarify the thought behind my all-caps sentence]

[This message has been edited by Ofren (edited 12-05-2002).]
Xisiqomelir
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Thu Dec 05, 2002 3:12 pm

Well, for a bit of international perspective, there are quite a few American foreign policies that many find attractive. Being nice to Israel, for instance.

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Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"
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Postby Mikayla » Thu Dec 05, 2002 3:37 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B>Guns don't kill people, I kill people.

And YOU can count. On me waiting for YOU in the parking lot!

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

bring it on nukie Image



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Allycis
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Postby Allycis » Thu Dec 05, 2002 3:37 pm

When the American colonies were breaking away from England, they hated the British so much that they had a vote among the political leaders whether to make German or English the language of the new nation, and English won by just one vote
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Postby cherzra » Thu Dec 05, 2002 3:49 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xisiqomelir:
<B>Well, for a bit of international perspective, there are quite a few American foreign policies that many find attractive. Being nice to Israel, for instance.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is one that causes a lot of hatred in many places.
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Thu Dec 05, 2002 3:51 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
I think this is one that causes a lot of hatred in many places.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya, bad example. Opposing Communism everywhere, then. Everyone supports that.

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Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"
Disoputlip
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Postby Disoputlip » Thu Dec 05, 2002 4:02 pm

Imagin some flaming agains US here.

[This message has been edited by Disoputlip (edited 12-05-2002).]
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Postby thanuk » Thu Dec 05, 2002 5:18 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>My problem isn't with people in particular. It's with your foreign policy. Individually I can deal with most of you just fine, but the moment I see what your government does in the world it makes me sick. Self-righteous, arrogant and self-serving are words that come to mind. The world isn't your playground, international agreements are not things you ignore whenever it suits you and it is completely wrong to meddle with other countries' foreign affairs.

In case you didn't know, monarchies here have no power whatsoever anymore as we are all ruled by parliaments which are formed from many political parties. As a matter of fact monarchies disgust me. They are filthy rich with money they stole over the backs of hard working people over the centuries, and I am as vehement against them as I am against your aggressive imperialist foreign policy.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what your really saying is you dislike the way the business culture of America works. Self-righteous, self-serving, arrogant. These words can be used to describe any CEO or owner of any corporation in the U.S. And what do these attributed yield? Success of course! You posted earlier about the company you work for being the largest telecom company in the world. How do you think they arrived at that? I'll give you a hint, not by being morally proper or doing "the right thing". They arrived there by being self-righteous, self-serving, and arrogant. Corporations also often ignore prior agreements they have made when it is to their benefit, as well as meddling in places they probably shouldn't. Except they dont call it meddling, they call it expanding.
As for our imperialistic government and their aggressive involvement in foreign affairs, that trend was started long before the United States even existed, in countries like England, and oh yeah Holland, isn't that where your from? They were imperialists as well, monkey see, monkey do. These are also the countries which originally spawned the U.S., so is it really such a suprise to you that the U.S. perpetuates the same ideas on which it was founded? Our aggressive foreign policies and lack of respect for international agreements are no stranger to your own government, or any government, really. As for interference, the reason we do so is because we can. You may not like it, but again we are not alone. The 1980's were all about the U.S. and U.S.S.R. meddling in other countries' affairs, promoting capitalism and communism respectively. Remember Colonization? Meddling in other country's affairs has been the staple of every country with even the slightest power since the beginning of time. So you can say you hate the U.S., our foreign policy, or the way we deal with other countries, but we learned it by watching you, ok? (who remembers those drug commercials Image) Every country has committed these acts at one point or another, the U.S. just happens to be the most prominent country in this time period. So what your really saying is you hate all governments, because when it comes down to it they are all self-righteous, self-serving, and arrogant. Your not the only one who feels this way. So as a constant reminder of the company you keep, my new nickname for you is Ted Kazinsky.


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Thanuk Pantherclaw
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Postby thanuk » Thu Dec 05, 2002 5:32 pm

As for the rest of you, you should all take a class on Socrates. This thread started out as a great debate thread, interesting points were raised, and Cherzra is taking a stand against the popular beliefs expressed. We have 2 sides, and an argument. But once things started getting interesting, you all immediately jumped off topic and began either flaming cherzra, or questioning his belief structure on completely unrelated topics. Whether its gun control or foreign policy, "You just hate america you bastard" isn't really a strong argument at all. Now if all you really wanted to do was flame the guy, i guess you did your job. But i was personally hoping to read an interesting debate on a timely subject, with opinions from people in a wide variety of geographical and social locations. You can get your little jabs in if you have to, god knows cherzra and I both do, but if your not gonna put up some relevant information in between insults then your wasting everyone's time.

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Thanuk Pantherclaw
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Postby Gerad » Thu Dec 05, 2002 5:41 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>Another inane comeback. You never address any points I bring up. It probably comes with that innate superiority you are born with - you don't have to answer anyone who points out the horrible flaws in your policy, because you are right to begin with.

And I watch in amazement as your government spends so much money trying to find out time and time again why so many other countries don't like you. Today again, on cnn.com. Maybe it's because of attitudes like yours. Try looking in the mirror.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Insulting, rude, and crudely said. Thanks for that.

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Postby Zrax » Thu Dec 05, 2002 6:14 pm

Not tough?!?!

Hell I had lung cancer for breakfast!

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Postby Treladian » Thu Dec 05, 2002 7:19 pm

"This was my original post: any idiot who advocates free availability of guns under the guise that "it's their personal right" or "guns don't kill people, people do", should see their family shot by some moron who feels the same way - maybe then they'll realize they are wrong."

I note that Cherzra has yet to present any sort of data or reply to the data I have brought up. As I said, rhetoric without any evidence and on a bbs, worth the paper it's written on.

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Postby Tasan » Thu Dec 05, 2002 7:54 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B>As for the rest of you, you should all take a class on Socrates. This thread started out as a great debate thread, interesting points were raised, and Cherzra is taking a stand against the popular beliefs expressed. We have 2 sides, and an argument. But once things started getting interesting, you all immediately jumped off topic and began either flaming cherzra, or questioning his belief structure on completely unrelated topics. Whether its gun control or foreign policy, "You just hate america you bastard" isn't really a strong argument at all. Now if all you really wanted to do was flame the guy, i guess you did your job. But i was personally hoping to read an interesting debate on a timely subject, with opinions from people in a wide variety of geographical and social locations. You can get your little jabs in if you have to, god knows cherzra and I both do, but if your not gonna put up some relevant information in between insults then your wasting everyone's time.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I flamed no one, I merely pointed out that your having a mullet was funny, and dangerous at the same time.

I also pointed out the fact that the US has some fairly disagreeable things in it's past as well as some of the more favorable.

So Nyah.

Twinshadow

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Ashiwi: And don't go jumping on my ass just because I'm responding to you, I'm wearing my "Malacar-proof" spiked buttguard for this occasion.
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Postby sok » Thu Dec 05, 2002 8:19 pm

Originally posted by thanuk:
Guns don't kill people, I kill people.

shouldn't it be Guns don't kill people, Moretheil kills people?
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Postby sok » Thu Dec 05, 2002 8:28 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tasan:
<B> I flamed no one, I merely pointed out that your having a mullet was funny, and dangerous at the same time.

Twinshadow
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL. you have a mullet? like that business in the front and party in the back thingy? what would process a person to do that to oneself? Thanuk whats going on? You're starting to lost my admiration.

sok

ps do you hurt squirrel with Karl Malone?
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Thu Dec 05, 2002 10:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by sok:
<B>Originally posted by thanuk:
Guns don't kill people, I kill people.

shouldn't it be Guns don't kill people, Moretheil kills people?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

o.O (You've seen through my ploy! Now I must find a new scapegoat, quick!)

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Kiaransalee responds to your petition with 'look on the bright side, I just saved you some corpses. We all know you would have gotten spanked'
Silsaterur
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Postby Silsaterur » Thu Dec 05, 2002 11:29 pm

1. Guns are implements of destruction. Good? I think not.

2. This entire thread was supposed to be a joke, ha ha ha... Y'know? Funny? At least i hope he wasn't of a serious heart posting it. I know I laughed...

3. Quitcherbitchin... Need I go on?

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Adilmir tells you 'are you a Mumavore?'
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Postby Deltin » Thu Dec 05, 2002 11:36 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
<B> The topic of our gun control really has little to do with Europe's crime rate ... unless you're going to bring out statistics and compare ours vs. theirs.

When in Rome...</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can't compare Europe and the USA there ashi, population, racial and sociological differences are way too great. Remember the Rodney King riots? While, other countries have riots they certainly don't have all the race problems we have here, generally speaking.
I own a .22 rifle and a shot gun btw and am always ultra careful with them, they aren't toys.


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So whad are we gonna do tonight Brain? Same thing we do everynight Pinky, TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
Xisiqomelir
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Fri Dec 06, 2002 12:39 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
I think this is one that causes a lot of hatred in many places.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, I slept on this, and there's no real need to retract my position, this is probably the best foreign policy they have. Israel is a nation surrounded by enemies who want it to stop existing for no reason other than who the people of Israel are. The "hatred" is all from members of these enemy countries, who justify it in the name of religion, yet seem to be unable to read what is written in their own holy texts, which specifically prohibit coldhearted murder.

Britain quite disgracefully failed to defend the people of Israel from the aggresion of these "holy warriors" (who as we can see from the events last year still hold human life in total disregard) after the end of the Second World War, even though

1) It was the moral thing to do

2) The creation of a Jewish state was a promise made to Chaim Weizmann, who invented a process for the manufacture of cordite gunpowder and basically kept Britain in the war single handedly.

Many, many other countries then and now have failed to condemn Arab aggression because of the fear that a repeat performance of 1973 would be the result. Throughout ALL of this America has been the only country to give Israel full military and economic support. Without this help I guarantee that Nasser's delightful promise to "sweep them into the sea" would be achieved by his modern-day successors.

I know there are holes in this argument, and Israel itself is not spotless in it's record. Palestinians are being maltreated, that is a given. Also, ignorant people in other parts of the world like to say "No it's the American Jews who are controlling it", but I think that it takes a special kind of conspiracy theorist to argue that 14 million people can manipulate 250 million others into doing their will.

So there. That's a policy that defends those in desperate need of defense. It is all that stands between a sovereign nation's right to exist and another Holocaust. It is a wonderful policy, and personally I love America and Americans more for it.

Cherz, you disagree?

(For the record, I'm not Jewish Image )

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Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"
gordex
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Postby gordex » Fri Dec 06, 2002 12:56 am

Cherza: Thanks for the honest reply. I am not a big fan of our government either. What it really comes down to is that power corrupts, and those with power are usually greedy. Since America is the strongest powerhouse (as of now), we get to play big brother, and therefore are probably high on the corruption scale.

One of the biggest issues is that the media controls what the public hears is said by the government, and that is our (the people of most if not all nations) only recourse for really finding out what is going on. I for one don't believe everything I hear in the news, and the government and the media only say what they want the public to hear. It is like that game where you whisper a sentence in one persons ear, then that person whispers it in another's ear, only worded a little different, until finally it gets to the public and then we mostly hear half truths.

Bottom line is, most people are self-serving (not just governments), and the more power given to those individuals, the more they will try to influence others to bend to their will.

P.S. I ranted and went on tangents, but thats just the way I am. Image

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Gordex - Gordex Travel Agency

[This message has been edited by gordex (edited 12-05-2002).]
Sarell
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Postby Sarell » Fri Dec 06, 2002 3:23 am

Remember when Malerie beat Alex P. Keaton on the IQ test? That was a great episode, some reason this thread just really makes me thing of the early eighties. I'm not sure if it is the 'greed is good' theme or Nuk's mullet that triggered it however.

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Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:54 am

hmm.

this thread probably wouldn't have degenerated the way it did if a small handful of the posters were capable of expressing themselves with even a modest amount of eloquence, decorum and respect for the viewpoints of others, instead of lashing out with pointless, childish jibes.

oh well, still makes for fun reading. I find it especially amusing that ODB (Old Dutch Bastard) hasn't responded at all to several of nukkie's points. this would be an even more entertaining thread if he would at least try to defend the limb that he has climbed out onto.

so how bout it?

*popcorn*

--D2

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Kiaransalee : (51) [ just call me beefy ]
Drakkoth
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Postby Drakkoth » Fri Dec 06, 2002 9:03 am

Since we've officially degenerated...

Cherzra--by the way, thank you for posting your resume, that was very helpful--I've read a lot of your posts, and never felt the need to comment, but I really am curious about a few things:

When you use terms like "arrogant," "self-serving," and "self-righteous" to describe the US, do you know that is how you come off in every single one of your posts?

At best, you're just a hypocrite. At worst, you're so fanatical in your hate--actually, I'm not entirely convinced it's hate, rather than a simple, childish desire for attention--that you can't see yourself.

When you KNOW you're right, there's a good chance you're wrong. And you, my friend, are wrong often. Painfully often.

You have to know, despite all your bashing, that if your country (I restrained myself from using the adjective "little") needed us, we'd be there. Knowing that, it's hard to believe you would still constantly spew your nonsense. How do you do it?

On the flip side, if by some bizarre twist of fate, we needed a little Dutch help, what exactly would you do? You pansies didn't even want to get involved in the big war. As I recall, you thought you were going to just skate out of that one while Jews were dropping like flies all around you until the Germans came in and dropped you clog-wearing idiots like a bad habit.

Who was it that ended up solving that problem for you again?

Know your role, Jabroni.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Dec 06, 2002 9:41 am

i still don't get why people are saying cherzra is rude and shit when flaming him (calling him names, saying he's owned, telling him to leave the bbs) is being rude/flaming. if cherzra toned down his name calling (good luck to u, i've been trying too and it hurts) and you retards (oops) stopped giving one sentence posts saying "pwned" or "hahaha cherzra you suck" and stuff this bbs would actually go somewhere. i'd sure wonder what a soj3 newbie would think when he/she/it reads the bbs.

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Nokie group-says 'what a rip-off, I spend months incapacitating navy seamen and doing 28,000 bandages and now we get tons of practice here in bronze citadel'
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Fri Dec 06, 2002 9:55 am

And people say I flame?

Yeah, you're the best. <IMG SRC="http://frontpage.fok.nl/i/s/pukey.gif" BORDER=0>
The rest of the world is composed of inferior idiots. There's no point in arguing with "people" like you because you are born with the idea that you are the shining light of civilization. <IMG SRC="http://frontpage.fok.nl/i/s/frusty.gif" BORDER=0>

Edited to add some fitting smileys...



[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 12-06-2002).]
gordex
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Postby gordex » Fri Dec 06, 2002 10:50 am

People, it takes 2 (or in this case more) to squabble. Why do ALL of you insist on fanning the flames? You call each other names and quarrel over who has the best morales. All of you need to take a good, hard look at what you posted, because all of you who flame each other are being hypocritical. Enough of this childish banter please. "The pot calling the kettle black" is one of the phrases that comes to mind.

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Gordex - Gordex Travel Agency
Grogu
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Postby Grogu » Fri Dec 06, 2002 11:29 am

There's really nothing I can say without being a hypocrite to what I would reply on this thread.

At first, I had a nice long rant about how freaking stupid people were being. Seriously, most of the posts that were directed at how many sentences a person could put together, or how another responded like a child were enough to make me want to puke.

I hardly even look at the BBS anymore because of these threads. It's a wonder to me for those who reguarly check it and continually respond.
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Postby thanuk » Fri Dec 06, 2002 5:15 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Silsaterur:
<B>1. Guns are implements of destruction. Good? I think not.

2. This entire thread was supposed to be a joke, ha ha ha... Y'know? Funny? At least i hope he wasn't of a serious heart posting it. I know I laughed...

3. Quitcherbitchin... Need I go on?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. Shutup canadian, before we invade Quebec again.

2. Quiet canadian, you are ruining football.

3. To hear you tell anyone to stop bitching is just hysterical. Guns may be the leading cause of death, but you are the leading cause of tog ooc.


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Thanuk Pantherclaw
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Postby thanuk » Fri Dec 06, 2002 5:18 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>And people say I flame?

Yeah, you're the best. <IMG SRC="http://frontpage.fok.nl/i/s/pukey.gif" BORDER=0>
The rest of the world is composed of inferior idiots. There's no point in arguing with "people" like you because you are born with the idea that you are the shining light of civilization. <IMG SRC="http://frontpage.fok.nl/i/s/frusty.gif" BORDER=0>

Edited to add some fitting smileys...

[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 12-06-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

too funny. we all just got pwned by sarcasm.

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Thanuk Pantherclaw
Silsaterur
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Postby Silsaterur » Fri Dec 06, 2002 5:18 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B> 1. Shutup canadian, before we invade Quebec again.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh please? CAN YOU!?! PLEEEEEEEASE!?!

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Adilmir tells you 'are you a Mumavore?'
sok
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Postby sok » Sat Dec 07, 2002 7:12 pm

some folks make good point, some folks make idiotic point. stupid people only response to the idiotic point and pretend that its the point of everyone against their viewpoint.

dont defend another person because you feel they are being outnumber. they are outnumber because more folks dont agree with their viewpoint. they either have to convince folks their viewpoint is the right one or they will just have to continue to suffer the minority viewpoint. if you agree with viewpoint then say hey i agree with so and so viewpoint. but dont say hey i dont agree with so and so viewpoint but you guys should stop arguing your viewpoint cuz you're going to hurt so and so feelings.

oh.. xis i agree with your viewpoint on israel. cherzra i dont believe usa foreign is perfect but it more benevolent than the middle east's, china, n. korea, and many of the dictorship of world's foreign policy.

sok formerly of communistic southeast asia
Guest

Postby Guest » Sun Dec 08, 2002 1:02 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gerad:
<B>Do you know one of the biggest reasons we were never really attacked in any of our wars? One of course was naval superiority, but the other, was that there are 80 million gun owners in america. Kind of hard to attack a populace where there are so many SUVS and patriots who will die defending their country and have the guns to do it well.


Something to think about next time you hear someone spouting that we dont need guns.


-G

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Interestingly enough this is more accurate than you might realize. In Ronald Regan's biography it speaks about intelligenve we got during the Cold War regarding the Soviet Union's designs on America. It was found through intelligence that one of the chief reasons why they never invaded us (why Red Dawn never came true) was precisely because of our Armed Populace. They didn't mention SUV's of course (I think that plays No factor), but facing off against 70 million Americans (at that time) with Guns was something the Sovients knew they could never overcome.

Now of course you can question the validity of the information, but quite honestly it makes alot of sense. It also makes me feel better about today, where even if we were invaded by the Chinese with a huge Army, we would still win by sheer numbers alone. (I dont think China will invade us, I dont think China is bad, I used them here because they have the only army left even Capable of it).

M
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Postby Deltin » Sun Dec 08, 2002 2:27 pm

In relation to Miax's post....
Even if an forgien army where to set food on US soil, how many would defect? How many people have defected in the past and continue to do so? Guess we aren't so bad after all if so many want to give up all they have, and sometimes their lives to come here.
As far as guns and deaths go, I'll bet deaths due to illegal drug over doses are greater than gun deaths, but then again since many gun deaths are due to drug related crimes it would be difficult to figure out which was the real cause.

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So whad are we gonna do tonight Brain? Same thing we do everynight Pinky, TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!

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