Guilty until proven innocent - maybe.

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Fura
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Guilty until proven innocent - maybe.

Postby Fura » Fri Dec 20, 2002 12:37 am

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/reuters20021218_609.html

If you're a non-permanent resident of the United States, and are interested in respecting your current home's laws, make sure you tell your boss and family that you might not be home for many months, ok?

All you have to do to be imprisoned is come from the wrong place, and agree to register with U.S. Immigration as requested.

*sigh* This is worth some prayer.
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Postby moritheil » Fri Dec 20, 2002 1:03 am

harsh times.

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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 20, 2002 2:02 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
INS spokesman Arcaute said those arrested had violated immigration laws, overstayed their visas, or were wanted for crimes. The program was prompted by concern about the lack of records on tourists, students and other visitors to the United States after the Sept. 11 hijack plane attacks on New York and Washington.

</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats pretty much sums it up...

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Postby Sylvos » Fri Dec 20, 2002 2:17 am

Well, that could sum it up, or this could sum it up too.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Hundreds of Iranian and other Middle East citizens were in southern California jails on Wednesday ]after coming forward to comply with a new rule to register with immigration authorities only to wind up handcuffed and behind bars.</font>


Obeying the laws has never looked so appealing!
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Postby Kallinar » Fri Dec 20, 2002 2:37 am

Americans have an ages old saying my friends...do the crime, do the time. You outstay your visa, commit a crime, etc when you are NOT an American citizen, you do get picked up for it and deported. This is not a new thing in America. The fact that the "victims" are mostly of middle-eastern backgrounds in this case, is because the government is trying to protect everyone and I am sure, with the terrorist happenings in other parts of the world against U.S. people and installations, this will affect more than just these select few in the near future.
[sarcasm]I wonder when they are gonna start kickin out Canadians and Mexicans now. Damned aliens tryin to assimilate us all.[/sarcasm]

Kallinar likes flappy-headed beady-eyed people.
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Postby Ensis » Fri Dec 20, 2002 3:28 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sylvos:
<B>Well, that could sum it up, or this could sum it up too.

Obeying the laws has never looked so appealing!</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

admitting to a crime doesn't mean the crime you committed is ok.



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Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Fri Dec 20, 2002 3:42 am

Reguardless of whether they outstayed their visas or not, they should be deported not arrested. This is bullshit imo. I am sure they are not getting very good treatment while imprisoned either. If you have ever been in jail i am sure you would see this in a different light too. I cant wait for bush to declare martial law! Woot!

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Postby Vahok » Fri Dec 20, 2002 4:04 am

Martial law...Arsenio Hall rules! Image

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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 20, 2002 4:43 am

Kifle,

Deported rather than arrested? I can tell you deportation isn't an automatic thing that just happens. There are hearings where people are given the opportunity to contest the deportation ruling. The only way, however, that the system works is to hold the subjects in custody. Otherwise it would be nearly impossible to deport anyone because people would simply run away.

Also, if these people are being deported because they committed a crime, wouldn't deporting them without first adjudicating the underlying crime violate the 'innocent before being found guilty' maxim? You would rather they be suspected of a crime and deported on that basis alone rather than arrested, adjudicated, and deported if found guilty?

Lets just put it this way. A significant number of the 9/11 hijackers were in this country on student visas that had long since expired. Another way of putting this is that they were in the country *illegaly*. INS has taken lots of flack in the interim, rightly so, for not keeping track of such people. I find it amusing that after we have learned what they did wrongly in the past, they now have to hear more shit while correcting their procedures. Basically, people just always want something to bitch about.

The only thing out of the ordinary in this example is these are exclusively arab men facing a crackdown. Do you know who mandated this? The U.S. Congress did. If you have a problem with this sort of obviously discriminatory behavior then elect different representatives. Personally, I'm very happy that when it comes to national security, common sense is given priority over political correctness. You don't see many non-muslim Europeans blowing up nightclubs and crashing planes into buildings...

Corth

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Postby Daz » Fri Dec 20, 2002 6:18 am

good, get the hell out of my country.

bleeding hearts is no excuse to let people break the law, regardless of the circumstance.
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Postby Kasula » Fri Dec 20, 2002 6:28 am

Ok, lets look back in history...
circa 1930 Germany
Germany's economy in ruins after World War 1...
Germany lost many people to the war...
A huge wave of nationalism sweeps Hitler into power...
Hitler uses propaganda to grow his power...
Hitler uses his henchmen to strip away civil liberties and gain dictatorial powers...
Hitler uses the Jewish people and the Jewish Religion as a scapegoat for WWI...
Jewish people are arrested and deported...
Jewish people are persecuted for their religion and beliefs...
Jewish people are sent to prisons than to ghettos and ultimately to Concentration Camps...
Germany shifts to a wartime economy and prepares for war...

You know the rest of the history, I think...

I ask you, truthfully, how different are we from Germany and Bush from Hitler...
Replace Germany with America and Hitler with Bush and Jewish people with Muslim people...

Did we learn nothing from history?!

We believe cause we lost two buildings and 3000 people that we have the moral high ground to persecute a whole religion of people and wage war against another country. Remember that Germany felt that it had reasons to attack Poland and before that it had reasons to take the Rhinelands... Remember Germany lost millions in WWI. As Americans live by the idea it is God's chosen people, so did the Germans. Just a thought...

Stop the Madness! Only you can prevent another Holocaust and War! The Crusades and the Inquisition is over, it is a part of history, leave it there!



[This message has been edited by Kasula (edited 12-20-2002).]
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Postby Kasula » Fri Dec 20, 2002 6:51 am

On a side note...
OMG how xenophonic can you guys be?!
Remember it takes all sorts of people to make the world go round...
Be tolerant of others...
I m deeply sadden by this turn of events... Image
Americans are most proud of its freedom, and the pursuit of happiness...
The Statue of Liberty says Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddle masses yearning to breathe free...
Oh well...

[This message has been edited by Kasula (edited 12-20-2002).]
Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Dec 20, 2002 7:07 am

As someone who knows several Persian (Iranian) people living completely legally in this country, I'm sorry but I have no qualms about arresting those who either are intentionally avoiding complying with the laws or who haven't bothered to fulfill them.

People around the world are allowed to enter this country, under certain conditions. If they can't live up to those conditions they either shouldn't come to this country, or they should expect this sort of situation if they do.

Some of these friends are now U.S. citizens because they took the steps necessary to gain citizenship. They also sponsor individuals from Iran who come here, guaranteeing that they won't be a burden on the state. They fulfill those guarantees to the Nth degree.

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Postby Kifle » Fri Dec 20, 2002 7:34 am

Corth,

Yes, I am aware that they have to arrest them in order to deport them and all that, but I was bitching about the obvious racism/bigory involved in it. My other point was how they are probably being treated in these jails. I am sure the inmates wont treat them well, and the guards sure as hell wont give a damn.

And corth, I like you and all and mostly agree with what you have to say, but don't even give me that bullshit about electing a different congressman. No one person can change the election unless it is horribly close, which happens less that shijin loading. I didn't vote for the moron in office now, and I sure as hell didn't vote for my current congressman or senator. The system is way to flawed for your statment to be even close to relevant.

America has a long history of being retardedly racist and being a mass of bigots. Shall i remind you of the comunisim scare, or perhaps how the japanese were treated after pearlharbor? What good came out of this?

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Postby gordex » Fri Dec 20, 2002 7:40 am

Kasula: You are straight fucked up in the head. How can you POSSIBLY compare jews and hitler to arabs and bush respectfully. The jews didnt attack Germany. The Arabs ATTACKED US. Get your shit straight.

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Postby Kasula » Fri Dec 20, 2002 8:03 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by gordex:
<B>Kasula: You are straight fucked up in the head. How can you POSSIBLY compare jews and hitler to arabs and bush respectfully. The jews didnt attack Germany. The Arabs ATTACKED US. Get your shit straight.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some Germans and Hitler believed the Jews, attacked Germany too. Germans actually believed that alot Jews joined the Allied armies and physically attack Germany. And Germans also believed that Jews served as spies and sabotage the war efforts. So I can easily compare the two... As you Americans can attack Iraq for a what a secular group of terrorist did. BTW ARABS DID NOT attack the US, a group of terrorist did. As you can blame a whole race of people, i can make a comparison of Bush and Hitler and Germany and America. I think its more fucked to blame a whole race of people... Hrmmm i think there is a word of that... Racism! Fucking xenophobic racists!!




[This message has been edited by Kasula (edited 12-20-2002).]
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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 20, 2002 8:36 am

snicker..

pretty sad when you become an apologist for hitler.

Secular terrorists eh? Oh you mean the ones yelling Aluhah Akbar? Image

Oh and arabs did kill 3000+ americans. All 19 of the hijackers were arab. It would be stupid to not take that stark fact into account while trying to prevent something similar from happening again... no?

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.


[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 12-20-2002).]
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Postby Ensis » Fri Dec 20, 2002 8:42 am

The same people bitching about the intelligence agencies and assets failing to prevent the attacks are bitching because the US government is now trying to take steps to prevent a new threat.

I don't see any of you screaming a cry for freedom when all the mexicans in your states get rounded up and sent back home.

There are many MANY reasons that illegally dwelling in this country shouldn't be here. It may be part of a political initiative to combat terrorism, but look at the bigger picture. They are living on soil they aren't paying taxes on, probably taking jobs that struggling americans could use.

Support the people that are trying to protect us. You can't keep going on with this "damned if you do damned if you dont" bullshit.

You want the government to protect us from terrorism, but you dont want them to target the particular demographic that has been carrying out attacks for the past few years.

If americans conducted an attack of the magnitude of september 11th on any middle eastern country, you can bet your ass there would be serious reprocussions on any american there.



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Postby Kifle » Fri Dec 20, 2002 9:12 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ensis:
<B>If americans conducted an attack of the magnitude of september 11th on any middle eastern country, you can bet your ass there would be serious reprocussions on any american there.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would be nice to believe that we would conduct ourselves more civilized than a vastly fanatic country, but hey, christians are above that.

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Postby cherzra » Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:58 am

Good work! Another shining example of why you are the guiding beacon of light to the rest of the world.

Well we all know where you are headed, you just don't see it yourselves yet.

Sieg Heil!
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Postby Kifle » Fri Dec 20, 2002 12:10 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>Good work! Another shining example of why you are the guiding beacon of light to the rest of the world.

Well we all know where you are headed, you just don't see it yourselves yet.

Sieg Heil!</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sheesh, you getting lazy or what cherz? I would have expected you to reply sooner.

I wonder if we will get a choice of where we get our swastica tat.

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Postby Slavan » Fri Dec 20, 2002 12:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by gordex:
<B>Kasula: You are straight fucked up in the head. How can you POSSIBLY compare jews and hitler to arabs and bush respectfully. The jews didnt attack Germany. The Arabs ATTACKED US. Get your shit straight.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gordex you took the words right out of my mouth. Kasula think about it...there is no comparing the 2!!
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Postby Slavan » Fri Dec 20, 2002 12:35 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kasula:
[B] BTW ARABS DID NOT attack the US, a group of terrorist did.

Maybe it was those terrorists on the plane that did the attacks. WHile the other terrorist were dancing in the streets celebrating right after it happened. I know for a fact and have seen it with my own eyes they were happy about 9/11..I cant say that ALL ARABS were happy about it..But from what I saw there are many..we need to find those and deport them!
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Postby Daz » Fri Dec 20, 2002 12:51 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B>Corth,

Yes, I am aware that they have to arrest them in order to deport them and all that, but I was bitching about the obvious racism/bigory involved in it. My other point was how they are probably being treated in these jails. I am sure the inmates wont treat them well, and the guards sure as hell wont give a damn.

And corth, I like you and all and mostly agree with what you have to say, but don't even give me that bullshit about electing a different congressman. No one person can change the election unless it is horribly close, which happens less that shijin loading. I didn't vote for the moron in office now, and I sure as hell didn't vote for my current congressman or senator. The system is way to flawed for your statment to be even close to relevant.

America has a long history of being retardedly racist and being a mass of bigots. Shall i remind you of the comunisim scare, or perhaps how the japanese were treated after pearlharbor? What good came out of this?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lets see now - terrorism as a way of life, suicide bombers, religious fanatics willing to die in order to kill other people, killing people for having differing views?

name that race?

african americans? asian americans? latino americans? oh, wait - no, it was foreign middle easterners who were in the country illegally. i see your point now, we should waste our government money screening everyone instead of those most likely to do it. that is very rational thinking in light of our current economic state.

you show me a black man preaching religious intolerance and convincing other black people to kill themselves to further these beliefs in today's america, THEN make sure those SAME african americans are in the country illegally, and we might have some ground to debate. as it is, lets read the headlines. how many terrorists in the last 2 years have been white/black/asian/hispanic compared to middle eastern?
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Postby Daz » Fri Dec 20, 2002 12:55 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B> It would be nice to believe that we would conduct ourselves more civilized than a vastly fanatic country, but hey, christians are above that.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

please do not lump 'american' and 'christian' together, it is very offensive to some.
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Postby rylan » Fri Dec 20, 2002 1:21 pm

If you're here illegaly, you should be arrested. Simple enough. Just cuz they went to comply with a new law to register with the INS doesn't mean they are exempt from the other immigrations laws that they were -violating-

Illegal immigrants should be deported. Follow the rules and I have no problem with it.
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Postby moritheil » Fri Dec 20, 2002 1:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>Basically, people just always want something to bitch about.

Corth

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Image

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Postby Jegzed » Fri Dec 20, 2002 2:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B> lets see now - terrorism as a way of life, suicide bombers, religious fanatics willing to die in order to kill other people, killing people for having differing views?

name that race?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Irish?



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Postby Daz » Fri Dec 20, 2002 2:31 pm

irish really use suicide bombing as a terror tactic?
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Postby thanuk » Fri Dec 20, 2002 2:36 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B> Irish?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey at least the irish are fighting over land Image And they dont suicide bomb, they are smart enough to run away before the bombs go off.
Kasula - Get out. Im serious. Get the fuck out of my country. I don't care where you go, i dont care what you do, but get out of my country. Go to the middle east, im sure your views will be appreciated there, but its people like you who caused our preventative measures to become so slack that instances like 9/11 were able to happen in the first place. You dont like war? You dont like a country that is involved in foreign affairs? Go to fucking canada, seriously.

Cherzra, your really slipping, that wasn't anywhere near your usual level of disgust and superiority.

Kifle - If you had ever been to prison you would realize that NOBODY gets treated well, regardless of their citizenship. Also understand that since they are not citizens of this country, the government is not really required to do anything for them, as they do not have the rights of a U.S. citizen. Just be happy they didnt pile them on tire rafts and push them out into the ocean.

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Postby Jegzed » Fri Dec 20, 2002 2:43 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
irish really use suicide bombing as a terror tactic?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure if they ever willingly suicided to get their bombs off, but anyone willing to detonate bombs among civilians just cause they are of a different religion/nationality is the same to me.



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Postby thanuk » Fri Dec 20, 2002 2:55 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B> I'm not sure if they ever willingly suicided to get their bombs off, but anyone willing to detonate bombs among civilians just cause they are of a different religion/nationality is the same to me.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Uhm, aside from the numerous glaring discrepancies between the situation in ireland and the terrorists attacks from the middle east, Id like to point out the fact that the bombs detonated among civilians and innocent people by the I.R.A. are being detonated within their own country. You can call it religious or whatever you want, but the simple fact is England invaded Ireland many many years ago, and they still refuse to leave to this day. Ireland blows up English people on their own soil, because it has been taken from them. And no this isn't a question of border issues like palastine, because Ireland is an Island, and England is its own, separate island. So before you go making leaping bounds in comparison, realize that one group is fighting against a country who has invaded their home and stolen their land, another is fighting against "the white devil".

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Postby Rausrh » Fri Dec 20, 2002 3:17 pm

An Irish child.
An English child.
A Muslim child.
An Americian child.

Thanuk, which of these is it permissible to blow up with a bomb? I forget.

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Postby thanuk » Fri Dec 20, 2002 3:30 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rausrh:
<B>An Irish child.
An English child.
A Muslim child.
An Americian child.

Thanuk, which of these is it permissible to blow up with a bomb? I forget.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The muslim child. Because sometimes they strap muslim children up with c4, send them into a mall in israel, and have them self-detonate for the glory of Allah. If their own people are willing to blow them up...


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Postby Malacar » Fri Dec 20, 2002 3:33 pm

The lunacy from some people in this thread frightens me.

And the vivid hatred is appalling.

There's so much propaganda and misinformation floating around it's disgusting. There's so many judgements about a country, any country, based on the actions of a few is sickening.

See a trend here?

Why even argue this? Opinions are like assholes, everyone has them. And arguing on the internet is like the special olympics... Even if you win, you're still retarded.

That's my favorite picture.

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Postby Jegzed » Fri Dec 20, 2002 3:41 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
You can call it religious or whatever you want, but the simple fact is England invaded Ireland many many years ago, and they still refuse to leave to this day. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the difference between this and Israel/Palestine is what?



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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 20, 2002 3:54 pm

Israel was the country invaded (by their arab neighbors)... and inexplicably, they won. They not only pushed the arab invaders out of israel proper, they pushed them back even on their own land. And when all is said and done, the Israelis have refused to leave. Point is, Israelis are an occupying power, true, but you cannot say that they are imperialists in the sense that England was.

In order for your comparison to work Jegzed, Ireland would have had to invade England without provocation, get pushed back into Ireland, and then start blowing up the women and children of the occupying English. At that point you would have a similar situation.

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 12-20-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 12-20-2002).]
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Postby thanuk » Fri Dec 20, 2002 4:00 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B> And the difference between this and Israel/Palestine is what?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The difference is that Ireland was a sovreign nation that was invaded by another country.
Palestine was once a nation of both jewish and muslim people, until the jews were forced out of palestine and became nomadic peoples, eventually settling across Europe. Later, WWII happened, and the displaced jews were given a chunk of land that was purchased by the allied powers from palastinian royalty. Because the borders of that agreement were never made clear, and because of the obvious tension between the two religious sects, you have a great deal of fighting over a somewhat valuable strip of land that is not clearly owned by either country, thus a border dispute, which is the leading cause of war if you look through history.
There is no border dispute in Ireland. It is an island. England has no claim to the land and has no right to be there, other than the "might makes right" philosophy that is so totally horrible when the United States uses it, but is completely acceptable when used by one European country over another. There is a valid dispute over land in the Middle East, because it is an issue of borders. But that is only one of many, many differences between these two situations, although Ireland has never used it as an excuse to launch a massive terrorist attack against the United States. If they ever did, you can bet your ass there would be a great deal of focus placed on Irish immigrants, and people here on student visas, and any other means one would have to live in this country as a non-citizen.

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Postby Jegzed » Fri Dec 20, 2002 4:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
The difference is that Ireland was a sovreign nation that was invaded by another country. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the invasion of Ireland by the FRENCH NORMANDS was rather legit.

Pope Adrian IV in 1155 declared that Ireland should be conquered by Henry II to bring the church into line.


The problem with the irish situation today is NOT that the english is controlling, BUT the fact that alot of irish in ulster are PROTESTANTS and do not want to live in the Catholic.

Okies.. We're going into a sidetrack here..

The point of the topic here is that NO SINGLE PEOPLE IS EVIL JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE THAT PEOPLE.


Doesn't matter if you are irish or arab or american or japanese. You should NEVER be judged for someone elses actions than your own.




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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
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Postby Rausrh » Fri Dec 20, 2002 4:31 pm

"If their own people are willing to blow them up"

Are you insane?

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Postby thanuk » Fri Dec 20, 2002 4:34 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B> Actually, the invasion of Ireland by the FRENCH NORMANDS was rather legit.

Pope Adrian IV in 1155 declared that Ireland should be conquered by Henry II to bring the church into line.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh so the pope said so, that makes it legit? So then terrorism is ok too, because Allah said to kill the white devil! Interesting counter-argument...but again back to the topic.

People should not be considered evil because of their race or religion, agreed. However, these are distinguishing characteristics, by which a person can easily separate one person from another. To say that you cannot use these characteristics to distinguish people, in situations such as law enforcement, is both wrong and stupid. It starts with color. You cant distinguish a person by the color of their skin, so when giving a police discription, you have to say a man, you cant say a white man, a black man... Whats next? Hair color? Eye color? Weight? height? These are all distinguishing characteristics which separate people from each other, just like race, and they all carry their own stereotypes. Blondes are stupid. Tall people are goofy and uncoordinated. Fat people are lazy. So lets do away with those too. Now what are you left with?

"Someone robbed my house!"
"Ok what did he look like?"
"He was a white guy, about 5'7 and around 200 lbs with bright red hair, ya cant miss him!"
But what goes over the police blotter?
"A man robbed a house today."
Hey why not just eliminate using sex as a descriptive term too, because sometimes people are sexist!
"A person robbed a house today."
So that just leaves every person in america as a suspect, reeeaaaall easy to find him now!
Nobody said every arab in America is a terrorist. But in the case of 9/11, every terrorist is an arab. I dont remember the last time an irish immigrant flew a plane into a building, oh right, thats because it never happened! No asian people have ever done this either, nor european, nor african, nor australian. So why should these people be put under the same scrutiny as a person who is arabic? Why should we waste our time and effort investigating people who are obviously not the ones committing terrorist acts? Political correctness? Sorry, thats a pretty dumb idea.


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Postby thanuk » Fri Dec 20, 2002 4:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rausrh:
<B>"If their own people are willing to blow them up"

Are you insane?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, i am not insane, but then again, ive never been tested. I have never strapped a child up with c4 and sent them on a suicide mission either. Now let me ask you a question:
If someone blows up your house with your wife in it do you:
A) Punch him in the face.
B) Murder him and his entire family.
C) Give him money and supplies, cuz he must be mad about something you did.
D) Do nothing and preach about political correctness in front of the flaming rubble that was once your house and wife.

If your answer to this question is either C or D, then its pretty obvious who the insane one is.



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Postby Jegzed » Fri Dec 20, 2002 4:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B>B) Murder him and his entire family.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And then his relatives does the same to yours, et cetera, ad infinitum.

I don't believe either of your responses truly work.

The only thing that can truly stop terrorism, is total war and genocide of the opponent and all their sympathisers. But I fear that is not really viable.

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Postby thanuk » Fri Dec 20, 2002 4:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B> And then his relatives does the same to yours, et cetera, ad infinitum.

I don't believe either of your responses truly work.

The only thing that can truly stop terrorism, is total war and genocide of the opponent and all their sympathisers. But I fear that is not really viable.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Obviously none of my responses work, because it was a loaded question, just like the one Raursh asked me earlier.

But the best deterrent short of your hitleresque scenario, is to ensure that people who are likely to commit terrorists acts do not come into the country in the first place, and to make those who are already here, leave. The fact that racial profiling was used to determine who is more likely to be a terrorist is a problem for some of the bleeding hearts in the U.S. which is how this thread started.

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Postby Daz » Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rausrh:
<B>An Irish child.
An English child.
A Muslim child.
An Americian child.

Thanuk, which of these is it permissible to blow up with a bomb? I forget.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

this is an easy one.
i am american, so #4 is out. i am also irish, scratch #1. now, at the moment - the english are our allies, so as much as i would like to - scratch #2. by process of elimination, the correct answer is #3.

nuke the little brat.
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Postby old depok » Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:13 pm

The issue here is that you can not condemn a race, nation or religion for the acts of the terrorists. Were they arab? Yes. Were they Muslim? Yes. Were they mainly from Saudi Arabia? Yes. None of this matters.

We have friends and enemies among all those groups. It is difficult to target the specific people who we need to "bring to justice" because of this. We are on the road to making it much easier as we allienate more of those groups as a whole. Soon we will be able to say "it's all arabs and they should all pay for this"

The policy in question is easy to understand. If you break the law and are illegally in this country, you will be arrested, tried and if found guilty either be sent to jail or deported. If found not guilty you will then have to defend why you should not be deported. This is the same for everyone in this country illegally.

It does worry me that we are not applying our laws evenly across the board however (example: the granting of citizenship to Mexicans who were in this country illegally for a period of time in the 90's and the call to do this again). But that isn't any different than what happens to the citizens in this country anyway. Poor people get different justice than the rich. African Americans get a different application of the laws as well (see the manditory sentancing guidelines for Crack cocaine (drug of choice for black users) and those for powder cocaine (drug of choice for white users)).

The thing that concerns me more than this is the treatment of the "enemy combatants" still held in Cuba. They are not given rights under the geneva convention and yet not given rights as citizens of either their country of origin or our justice system. They have actually been given no rights. THAT is what worries me.
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Postby thanuk » Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by old depok:
<B>The issue here is that you can not condemn a race, nation or religion for the acts of the terrorists. Were they arab? Yes. Were they Muslim? Yes. Were they mainly from Saudi Arabia? Yes. None of this matters.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhm, yes it does matter. The people who fit all these characteristics should be more heavily monitored, because their potential for terrorist acts is much higher than that of the average immigrant living in america. Should we throw them all out no questions asked? Of course not. Should we be more wary of them, and keep closer tabs on them? Obviously.


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[This message has been edited by thanuk (edited 12-20-2002).]
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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:29 pm

When illegal mexican immigrants start blowing up planes rather than working hard in restaurants, I'll be in favor of applying the same heightened scrutiny to their immigration status as well.


See? its equal opportunity...

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 12-20-2002).]
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:30 pm

In the cases where some of these people have been attempting to do what is necessary and our own red tape and paperwork left them hanging, then I will agree that jailing them was too harsh. In the cases where people failed to comply with known regulations regarding their visas and broke the law, sorry, there is no "guilty until proven innocent" when they're already here illegally.

My heart goes out to these people who have settled here and have families and are now going through this, but we all know that if we are to take care of our families and raise them to live in America we teach them to stop for red lights, drive on the right hand side of the road, don't do drugs, don't do harm, and if they insist on breaking the laws that they will have to face punishment for their actions. If they really wanted to take care of their families they would have made sure they did what was necessary to stay in the country legally, don't you think?

Unless, of course, you truly believe that we should allow anybody who wants to come over here to just hop right past our borders without ever having to worry about a visa, a permit, identification of any kind, their past criminal record, their extremist ties, or their intentions while they're in this country. "Guilty until proven innocent?" They wouldn't have been there if there wasn't a reason beyond the fact of their heritage.
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Postby old depok » Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:34 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B> Uhm, yes it does matter. The people who fit all these characteristics should be more heavily monitored, because their potential for terrorist acts is much higher than that of the average immigrant living in america. Should we throw them all out no questions asked? Of course not. Should we be more wary of them, and keep closer tabs on them? Obviously.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree we should be more aware and keep closer tabs on people that we suspect could be a problem. We have to balance that with the rights of the citizens of our country.

We can not use this as a way to roll back the civil liberties that all Americans have earned through the struggles of people for whom the term "keep a close eye on" meant "make sure those uppity black people don't cause no more trouble in my Southern state." Or that meant "lets round up all those japanese americans and put them in camps so we can make sure that they aren't causing problems"

I believe that if we ask for the assistance of the arab communities in our country we will see that many of them are more than anxious to help us. If we just go out heavy handed and make anyone with brown skin who prays a few times a day a suspect, then we are doing more long term harm than we could possibly imagine.

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