Some testing info

Ragorn · Postby **Ragorn** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 5:20 am

I talked with Miax and he said it was ok to talk about some details of the testing as long as we don't give away exact information. So, here's an update for the masses.

- Most of our official testing is being done on the new combat system. The new equasion for hits/misses is VERY deep and complex, with several important components. We're working to balance it so that AC will MEAN something, but mobs will still be possible to attack physically. Right now the curve is a little too steep, so we're exploring ways to make mobs easier to hit without unbalancing melee.

- The new spells are, for the most part, very impressive. The nature spells will need some tweaking. As it is, many Ranger/Druid spells are restricted to certain weather conditions, which makes them useless in a lot of situations. There are, however, a lot of powerful new spells. Shamans have a single-target silence spell, Druids have a slew of new offense, Rangers and Druids get Pass Without Trace (which prevents you from being tracked), and Necros got several new damage spells. So far it looks like Invokers and Enchanters are unchanged. I haven't seen Conjurers yet.

- Rogues are looking very promising. Testing has showed they are more than capable of equalling other classes for damage output with the right equipment. They've retained all the thief and assassin skills, but garrote hasn't been tested yet to my knowledge.

- Justice: Still fun to play with

- A lot of zones are not connected, and some of the zones that are represented pop without mobs. Those doing the alpha testing are not getting any sort of advantage in regards to exploring zones or figuring out quests.

Keep in mind I'm not an official source, but if you guys have general questions about stuff we're allowed to talk about, go ahead and ask and I'll see if I can get some answers

- Ragorn

Yayaril · Postby **Yayaril** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 5:29 am

Yea, I'll get to test garrote some more... just give me 7 months to get to 35.

Yayaril

Dhurn · Postby **Dhurn** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 5:35 am

Thanks Rags for keeping us in the loop

Oh, and btw...lick Jhorr for me would ya?

Jhorr · Postby **Jhorr** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 6:14 am

More news:
Invokers have a couple new medium circle offense spells.
THACO has been calculated incorrectly on Sojourn and probably all DIKU muds for years, enjoy!

Wargo · Postby **Wargo** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 6:21 am

Any word on illusionist? I can't wait to test/play the class. Is it available for alpha? I would think so since a great deal of balancing should go to this class as well. Also, what about the new race?

Wargo
Can't stop thinking about it. I knew I should've signed up for Alpha. Damn it

Tilandal · Postby **Tilandal** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 6:28 am

Mmmmmmm..... News......

Bah when us common folk finnaly get to play Im gona be at home... away from my nice T1 dorm connection, Back on my single phone line modem connection and sharring mud time with my brother

I plan on going nocturnal. I'll wake up at 1am and mud till dawn.

Ragorn · Postby **Ragorn** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 6:46 am

Update: Ranger and Druid nature spells no longer have rediculous weather restrictions. They will now work in all climates, but if you're in unfavorable conditions they'll do less damage.

- Ragorn

Galok Icewolf · Postby **Galok Icewolf** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 6:48 am

Miax and other imms have implemented some tools that will help us determine and figure out what a plausible curve for to-hit and such so the game will still be balanced. Of course it'll be tested alot more when open alpha comes.

Illusionists aren't in until tommorow (I think) where as before now, we were more concered with testing the combat engine and some of the other newly modified classes imho.

It seems to be going well though, and it looks fairly good.

[This message has been edited by Galok Icewolf (edited 03-19-2001).]

Waelos · Postby **Waelos** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 11:11 am

Hey. I've been writing tidbits here and there .. . find 'em, if you want. *lol* but I thought I would try and follow Ragorn's lead and give a lost ranger's spin on things =)

Rogues: Severely cool. Once the Thac0 issue's been resolved (and balanced) they'll be set. A lot of 'fun' skills that are both usefull and a joy to develop. Poisons are going to offer such tactical challenge/fun.

Shaman: Haven't seen them too much, but certainly they go far beyond what they once were (simply ghealers and tankmakers). They have a great spell called Hex. They've a definate shamanistic flavor now too, which I love to see.

Invokers: Still the unparalelled ass beaters in the game. Will be greatly affected by MR, which we're balancing too.

Enchanters: seem to be the same (haven't seen them in action much to date)

Warriors: Warriors go as the combat system goes. They will be the tanks (along with Pallies and Apallies).

Clerics: Not the run of the mill simple healers any more! Holy word sure seems to have gotten an upgrade . . .

Druids: Wow, fun. Like Ragorn said, their new spells need/ed to be tweaked as they were hard to use anywhere. But they definately have more flavor and combat effective spells.

hmm thats all I ahve time for this morning. I know, nothing really all that new, but just my take on things =)

Waelos

cherzra · Postby **cherzra** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 11:33 am

Let me play devil's advocate once more.

With most classes apparently getting a bit extra, especially the paladins, antis and rogues, will this put warriors out of a job? Last wipe with all the hitter eq downgrades, they were already a joke compared to newer and more interesting ways of doing damage (read: vokers, range weapons of rogues/rangers).

If all the other warrior subclasses will be doing more damage too now and be more fun to play, won't warriors will be solely relegated to being boring meatshields, even more so than last wipe?

Jegzed · Postby **Jegzed** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 11:42 am

RE: Cherzra

I don't know about you, but I never thought the most fun from playing a warrior was dealing damage.

Rescuing us wimpy casters, bashing the right assigns and shieldpunching stuff is much more fun. Simply pressing "assist elemental" or "afire xxx" repeatedly like a ranger does not exactly take a lot of skill

/Jegzed

ps. feh, I hate waiting for the compiler at work. *twiddle*

Guest · Postby **Guest** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 12:00 pm

And what is happening to those little conjurers? are the "new ones" in game right now? and tested?

Taer/Ssil · Postby **Taer/Ssil** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 12:12 pm

Have squids or necros been changed in any way?
If its been touched on already, I musta missed it

-Taer (too curious for his own good)

Waelos · Postby **Waelos** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 12:20 pm

New Conjurers aren't in yet, sorry! =)

Warrior usefullness: Warriors will _always_ be usefull, and needed, and totally viable damage dealers and rescuers and bashers. Remeber, Paladins are most effecting 2h (cant bash) rangers can't bash dualing, Ap's? dunno hehe.

Jegzed: apparently you've never tried playing a ranger (or rogue for that matter) extensively. afire mob is only simple when you're doing XP or doing fairly static mobs. You're always needing to monitor your target. You have to constantly keep track of stray arrows (did you miss and hit Kostichhie in the next room? You better know!) You need to make sure you are still in archery (and haven't been engaged by a mob or by a spell. ranger 2h bludgeon isn't exactly super) Make sure your quiver is still full, disengaging if you're in melee. Dragon breath can engage you at any point. Timing is everything =) Archery isn't as simple as assisting elemental, yo =)

Sure, you can disregard all that stuff. It would be simple. but you'd also suck as a ranger =)

damn I should be working!

waelos

Ruhr · Postby **Ruhr** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 12:40 pm

Waelos wrote:

Warriors: Warriors go as the combat system goes. They will be the tanks (along with Pallies and Apallies).

Did paladins get an HP boost?

[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 03-19-2001).]

Tanras · Postby **Tanras** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 1:20 pm

figure ill add my bit for necros.

Necros have a few added new spells and some of their pets have had slight changes. But most notably is that there are 6-8 new spells for necros ranging from mid to late circles, including one very useful unique utility spell and about 5 new offensive spells that are unique to the class.

Tanras

namatoki · Postby **namatoki** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 2:32 pm

Oooooh, sounds cool, Tanras. Thanks for the info for necros.

So, any word on the new race?

Let us know how illusionists go when they come in.

Nizrath

izarek · Postby **izarek** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 3:21 pm

Woot! Thanks for the tidbits o info. Keep em coming! Glad to hear they decided not to keep the weather restricts for ranger/druid spells. It makes sense at some level, but I think it should only apply to a couple spells at best. reducing dmg/duration makes more sense. Definately looking forward to Pass w/o trace.

Question: Any changes to two-weapon fighting or range weapons?

Also, hafta agree with Waelos about archery strategy. Well put. Actually, I think that learning how to deal with that kind of stuff when they implemented it during S2 was part of what made rangers so much fun. I remember being in some dangerous places with, say, me and another ranger in a group...trying to figure out in all that battle spam whose arrow went off what direction. Made my heart flutter each time, ROFL.

Anyhow, thanks again alpha-testers!

Izzy

P. S. found out I get this friday off of work. Damn, I wish that was monday the 26th instead! *snap*

[This message has been edited by izarek (edited 03-19-2001).]

Tilandal · Postby **Tilandal** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 3:46 pm

Warriors: The way I see it warriors will always make the best tanks/rescuers/bashers. They may not del as much damage as rogues and rangers but They have more skills in the tanking area and they get better at them. With the new chance to block every hit in warriors are much less prone to taking melle damage cause they get mor chances to block (ie dodge parry ripost shieldblock) When a waarior is not tanking he should be busy bashing since warriors are the only class that doesnt have an excuse not to wear a shield.

Jhorr · Postby **Jhorr** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 4:00 pm

Re: warriors.

With the new combat system, warriors can be a more diverse class. Some warriors may opt to be uber-tanks by wearing shields, lots of hps, and AC. Others may decide to be damage specialists by sacrificing AC to wear more hit/dam. Others may be inbetween and still others may have more than one kit. This happened before but didn't really involve AC at all. Sure, some warriors had lots of hps but they still needed stoneskin to tank anything hard.

Ragorn · Postby **Ragorn** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 4:26 pm

Ok, let me try to take these one by one

Illusionists: Not yet available for testing, we're told they'll be in today or tomorrow so we'll let you know.

Tanks: Warriors and Paladins will always be the tanking classes. There will never be a time when you don't need bashing and rescuing. Mathematically speaking, two handed fighter classes are right up there with rogues and rangers for doing damage, while retaining all the standard-yet-boring skills. As new zones go in, that means new proc weapons

And multiple dodge/parry is in now, so the more agile and dexterous races will be able to flex their tanking muscle by seriously reducing the amount of damage they take in combat.

Illithids: I haven't seen them, and even if I had, I don't know what illithids used to look like anyway

Paladins: I don't know if they've gotten a hit point boost, most of the testing we do is with 30,000 hp anyway. I'll see if I can find out.

Two weapon combat: No changes that I know of. Personally I'm crusading for offhand weapons to proc normally again, to balance the one-dimensional hitters with the tank classes. However, this hasn't come close to being implemented yet, and is still just an idea.

New race: Haven't heard a thing.

Ranger skill: I disagree, it was totally mindless to assist or afire and turn the Playstation on

- Ragorn

Tilandal · Postby **Tilandal** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 6:04 pm

Ranger hitting could get boaring sometimes but Archery takes a lot of attention. Any chance bash could engage you in combat and even the best of us miss once in a while. Nothing worse then missing and hitting a mob in the next room. Then during big fights you often have to switch quivers or disengae, strap on a shield and rescue your mage. Its not just a matter of afire and sit back.

Waelos · Postby **Waelos** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 6:38 pm

Bah Rags, like I said . . . you _could_ take the easy way out, but then again, what I said was regarding _good_ rangers . . . *tease* just wanted to take 2 min out of my day to harass Ragorn! Bwhahahaha!

Time well spent

Lost!

Ragorn · Postby **Ragorn** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 6:46 pm

*laugh* so what if I stray? What am I gonna do about it, piss myself? I'm gonna keep shooting is what I'm gonna do

- Ragorn

Ruggak · Postby **Ruggak** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 6:53 pm

Ok ok fine and dandy but what about the Anti pals and Paladins and yes Apald and pals can bash with 2h just bot as effectively as warriors. )

Mplor · Postby **Mplor** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 8:15 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ruggak:
Ok ok fine and dandy but what about the Anti pals and Paladins and yes Apald and pals can bash with 2h just bot as effectively as warriors. )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paladins and APs may not get the penalty to bash from not wearing a shield, but they also do not get the bonus to bash from wearing heavy shields, like pbone or rose shield. If body weight enters into the equation, and I suspect that it does, Paladins and APs lack there compared to most warriors who are barbarians, trolls, ogres, and dwarves. Hence, Paladins and APs dont bash as well as a warrior wearing a nice shield, even if both have the same skill.

Mp

Tilandal · Postby **Tilandal** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 9:25 pm

Pallies and antis gain bash bonus based on the weight of their weapon. I have seen pallies bash reliably with a 2 hander but of course they are no ogre. If they are your only basher it is probably not wise and likewiae dont have them bash while tanking but as a backup basher they are good.

Lyt · Postby **Lyt** » Mon Mar 19, 2001 9:28 pm

As stated before, conjurer changes have not been implemented yet, nor do I know what they are going to be. But all you conjurers out there, trust me when I say that I will thoroughly test everything new that we get, and whine quite plentifly if I feel that we are getting screwed in anyway. But what I have been told so far is that ellie size is going to be downgraded, and they are not nearly as good of a tank as a warrior is. That has already been seen in a couple of tests I have done.

I won't let conjurers as a class get deep sixed, as I love them too much.

Lyt

Temg · Postby **Temg** » Tue Mar 20, 2001 12:55 am

Antipals don't get quite the Weapon Weight bonus that heavy shields give (mostly because shields tend to weigh much more than weapons..how many wht 50 weapons can you think of?)

Antis have gotten some very cool upgrades all in all, they still need alot of work. They are still very much a niche class that isn't uber in any respect, but is still mega fun to play.

They have gotten a damage shield, finally got bless, got the ability to summon a horsey (thank god), got dispel magic, some really neat offensive spells (wait until you see the Hellpuppy). Apply poison I've played with some, its cool, but its gonna cause us to fight with rogues for the drops. The ability to group with anyone will make us a bit more socially accepted as a class, plus breaking the "good side bad side" of the goodraces apart. When mounted combat gets working, you will see horseys in battle more often, and not just as a gimp hitter.

All in all, very positive changes.

-Rolargin/Temg

vense · Postby **vense** » Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:43 am

What's new with bards?

Galzar · Postby **Galzar** » Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:59 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Waelos:
New Conjurers aren't in yet, sorry! =)

Warrior usefullness: Warriors will _always_ be usefull, and needed, and totally viable damage dealers and rescuers and bashers. Remeber, Paladins are most effecting 2h (cant bash) rangers can't bash dualing, Ap's? dunno hehe.

Wake up tree hugger, palies are best at bashing with 2h weapon, we dont need a shield

Jegzed: apparently you've never tried playing a ranger (or rogue for that matter) extensively. afire mob is only simple when you're doing XP or doing fairly static mobs. You're always needing to monitor your target. You have to constantly keep track of stray arrows (did you miss and hit Kostichhie in the next room? You better know!) You need to make sure you are still in archery (and haven't been engaged by a mob or by a spell. ranger 2h bludgeon isn't exactly super) Make sure your quiver is still full, disengaging if you're in melee. Dragon breath can engage you at any point. Timing is everything =) Archery isn't as simple as assisting elemental, yo =)

Sure, you can disregard all that stuff. It would be simple. but you'd also suck as a ranger =)

damn I should be working!

waelos<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ionari · Postby **Ionari** » Tue Mar 20, 2001 3:21 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by vense:
What's new with bards?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You beat me to this post by 40 minutes! (: I was wondering all this time what improvements will this useful? class get to make them more than morale bringers in a group. Oh the occasional 'battle bard' will of course still make me both smile and tremble with concern for their singing ability...

Concerning Temg's post:

They have gotten a damage shield, finally got bless, got the ability to summon a horsey (thank god)

Funny! Anti's have gods of any worth? (-;<

Be nice to see a little bit more about some of the weaker races: ie Grey Elf & Halfling. As they seem to be quite restricted in their strength attributes, I personally don't see their excelling in dexterity to be of much compensation. I think a couple of innate skills specific to their race would help balance them out considerably.

Patiently awaiting the beta test,
Io

PS - Forgive any typos you find, I edited this thing three times now. *growls menacingly*

[This message has been edited by Ionari (edited 03-19-2001).]

Ragorn · Postby **Ragorn** » Tue Mar 20, 2001 12:26 pm

Oddly enough, I haven't seen anybody do anything with a bard yet. I'll ask around.

- Ragorn

Gormal · Postby **Gormal** » Wed Mar 21, 2001 4:06 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Waelos:

Clerics: Not the run of the mill simple healers any more! Holy word sure seems to have gotten an upgrade . . .

Waelos<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BAHAhAhAHAhAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhAH Enjoy that Jurdex! Screw full heals at once!

Kildran sends Thrym reeling with a holy word.

Ilshadrial · Postby **Ilshadrial** » Wed Mar 21, 2001 2:57 pm

Area damage Tweakage...

So is this fixed yet or is it going to continue to make the zones we create unchallenging?

Ragorn · Postby **Ragorn** » Wed Mar 21, 2001 3:57 pm

Area damage is still a very significant part of a caster's arsenal. New area spells have been added to necros, shamans, and druids. I don't know how much damage areas did before, but they're still a very powerful tool.

- Ragorn

Ilshadrial · Postby **Ilshadrial** » Wed Mar 21, 2001 5:02 pm

Great!

That means the massive area damage pointed out in SOJ2 which made zones like Manscoripions a joke has not even been considered, since even more powerful and more area damaging spells have been added.

Spells should be more targeting based over area...

I saw that inferno log, I can think of ways already to twink that

Uthgar · Postby **Uthgar** » Wed Mar 21, 2001 5:38 pm

Ok, I'll bite. Ilsha, how would you twink that situation with inferno? If you want us to properly balance area spells (which we definitely plan to do) we need more detailed feedback.

Uthgar

Ilshadrial · Postby **Ilshadrial** » Wed Mar 21, 2001 6:08 pm

I'll be about, you know where you can find me

[This message has been edited by Ilshadrial (edited 03-21-2001).]

Ragorn · Postby **Ragorn** » Wed Mar 21, 2001 7:46 pm

Uthgar, what's your email address?

- Ragorn

Uthgar · Postby **Uthgar** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:58 pm

My email is KZierhut@KinCyb.com. If you go to the main page you can find it there as well.

Uthgar

Ilshadrial · Postby **Ilshadrial** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 12:54 pm

Ragorn-

There are several off-hand proccing weapons.

You just have to have the knowledge base where/which weapons these are.

I don't agree that all weapons should proc off hand. Weapons like windsong would be sickning.

Besdies, rangers now have an awsome spell list...too good IMHO!

Rangers controling the Weather! BLASMY!

Ilshad

Ragorn · Postby **Ragorn** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 3:13 pm

Heh.

Last wipe during the equipment changes, I would say about 90% of the good 1h weapons were made weight 14, and therefore un-dualable by any ranger race. Don't worry, windsong was one of them. So was ebony longsword, and white hot fiery mace, which were both rumored to proc offhand. The only < 14 proc weapon I could find after the change was gleaming holy, which did not work offhand.

It's not that I don't know what they are, it's that elves are puny and weak

The spell list is looking pretty cool too.. we've discussed tweaks to some of the higher level spells, and I'm excited to see how it's going to turn out. Dust Devil rox0rs

- Ragorn

Ilshadrial · Postby **Ilshadrial** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 4:01 pm

My Dearest Ragorn,

There is enough +max str eq for even a human and half elf to dual wield some of the weapons you names. Alas Rangers have to be good alignment, or do they since sojourn is no longer a role play based mud, to wear the +maxstr necklaces...

I know I used to dual wield the flaming mace with my assassin when I got bored and wanted a little variety in my vamp proc off Fade combined with the flame proc.

I would have to wear
Guants of Power
Belt of Human Skulls
2 Dwarf Necklaes to duel the wt 14 weapon as a human.

There are a few more MAx str items out there, so I am sure a half-lef might be able to, so play a half-ranger this next time

Uthgar · Postby **Uthgar** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 6:06 pm

If ranger suffering was due to the weapons being wt 14, please let me know. Those weapons were set to 14 to prevent the really good ones from being used as secondary weapons, but that change may have been excessive. Certainly some ranger specific ones could be lowered in weight. What is the maximim wt weapon an elven ranger can wield?

Uthgar

[This message has been edited by Uthgar (edited 03-23-2001).]

Sarvis · Postby **Sarvis** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 6:24 pm

Actually ranger suffering was due to the across the board lowering of all weapons to crappy stats. The weight thing was just another symptom... hehe.

Nice to know weapons are getting looked at though.

Sarvis

Treladian · Postby **Treladian** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 6:58 pm

Uthgar, from my days as a grey elf ranger, I know that the max weight for a primary wasn't really a problem. I was able to wield a glowing scimitar as my primary, which has a weight of 17 or something greater. Granted, I was naturally at the max str notch for an elf. Secondary weapon weight was like 5 or so I think, I never really tested it out that much after I found some wt. 3 secondaries.

belleshel · Postby **belleshel** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 7:21 pm

Take a look at the moonblade, it was a fairly crappy weapon (nice rp thou), but it was changed to 13-14wt so I couldn't offhand this weapon

, and unless they change it, nobody is going to prime this weapon

.
Also the valkyrie sword (procs in offhand *wink ragorn*), its not a powerful weapon, and its weight was changed so we elves couldn't offhand it. (loved to proc with windy in prime, valk in 2nd).
Thanks,
Belle

Forgot but I think we were limited to wt. 5 in offhand weapon.
btw. Ilsha ragorn was a managy 1/2 breed last time. Treladian, Necassio and myself were the only Grey's of high level I can remember.

[This message has been edited by belleshel (edited 03-23-2001).]

Ragorn · Postby **Ragorn** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 10:30 pm

My dearest Ilshadrial,

What you are describing essentially limits offhand procs to those who are of the highest caliber of player. I myself was a half-breed. With equipment I was at the max strength notch, but I forget what that is now. Dualing the fiery mace would require 4-5 different max_str items, few of which are readily available to your average mudder. Borrowing them really wasn't an option, since our offhand weapons had a tendency to end up in inventory after renting or camping, requiring you to re-equip all the max_str every time you needed to equip the weapon.

When I suggest that weapons proc offhand, I mean weapons easily accessible to the majority of players on the mud. True, weapons like Windsong are two powerful to dual wield. However, weapons with moderate dice and proc strength should proc regardless of which hand they're in. I see no imbalance in letting the flaming longsword proc off-hand, or the gleaming holy.

Uthgar, when weapons were looked at and upgraded, the majority of weapons that had their bonuses readjusted were made weight 14. The most a human ranger could dual without max strength was weight 13, so that change was deliberate. It's been over a year so I don't remember the list of which weapons got heavier. Windsong was the only one that really affected me.

So, my suggestion to the staff on this topic is twofold. First, reduce the weight of those upgraded weapons back below 10 so that rangers (and rogues) of all races can dual wield them. Secondly, examine the proc weapons on a case by case basis, and allow some of the more moderate effects to work while dualed. I'd be happy to donate time to testing this change.

You shouldn't have to be an elite power mudder to gain the benefits of offhand procs.

- Ragorn

azzixxenae · Postby **azzixxenae** » Sat Mar 24, 2001 12:31 am

What? none of you freaks rolled a squid? *swat* ptesters
any cool squid upgrades/downgrades?
*nudge* coders

Have mercy and someone roll one and report back on it. It will give me something to read over and over until Monday evening.

azz
"big eyes, big tenticles, big *yeah baby"

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