discussion on evil innates turned to flames

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Brugg
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discussion on evil innates turned to flames

Postby Brugg » Mon Mar 26, 2001 8:35 pm

Guys settle down. I deleted that thread because it contained personal flames that just simply cannot be tolerated here. There is no need to get personal on this bbs. Damn the mud isnt eaven up yet and were already fighting like children over it.
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Postby Faerwynd » Mon Mar 26, 2001 8:40 pm

Note: Why delete threads? Let people show their true colors.

Anyways, I was just about to post a reply to the old thread when it was rudely deleted out from under me =) *tease Brugg*

So what exactly is so hard about being an evil again? I want to ask this of the evils and just be honest. You all are good enough players to handle whatever the Imms decide to throw at you (if anything) so just be adult about this question and be honest.

Hometowns? Hyssk is hard. None of the other hometowns are really that hard, except maybe Ghore. Well they might be, but GH and Ix are easy to leave and close to xp zones. Ghore and Hyssk aren't as easy to leave. So that makes them harder IMHO.

Day blindness is more of an annoyance and a hinderance than anything else, but then again there is the whole Underdark to romp in I wish hometown justice wasn't SO HARD so goodies might actually brave an attempt past GH to get to Derro Pits/Deep Dragon/Yach Oloth. What exactly is so _balancing_ about the fog spell Jegzed? You mentioned something about it pissing people off so it wasn't the ultimate spell. And oh yeah, Control Weather works great. Its a little annoying at times cause you gotta stop what you're doing to make it snow/rain... but its quicker than waiting 12 RL minutes for the sun to set.

Ok really those are the only questions I have. But now I'll defend the evil races a second. What the heck is so imbalancing about the evil innates? Aside from Squid domination, nothing gives evils a major advantage (heck even domination was reduced, wasn't it? can only dominate 1/2 the squid's level?). Doorbash is a cool novelty. Duergar strength is a cool utility, so is invis (but what the heck doesn't see invis???). Regen is great for newbie trolls, sure makes life easier (point of order: Trolls are definitely, hands down, the best tanks in the game. Goodies and Evils alike shouldn't argue that point). Snake innates are cool, but there weren't ever many hitter types that came outta Hyssk. And who cares about the +hit/dam innate when they gotta give up eq slots that can prolly give them +10/+10 someday. Tailsweep is on par with bodyslam, but that's no big squeal.

Anyways, through all that, what evil innates really give them an advantage? If anything it gives them neat little novelties that round out their race. What really would be acceptable good race innates above and beyond what they got? I can't think of any.

Jaeb/Grimulk
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Postby Corth » Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:04 pm

Brugg:

I don't think its appropriate to delete threads. Despite any personal flames that might have been on there, I think it was a perfectly valid topic of conversation. If necessary, you could have deleted particular messages that were objectionable.

The fact of the matter is that although this is a sojourn sponsored bbs, people are here (rather then the old site) with the understanding that they're conversations would not be censored by sojourn staff. Since you moderate this site, you are acting as a sojourn staff member for that purpose.

The censorship of duris flames on the other hand did not bother me. The conversations on that thread were not relevant in regards to sojourn as a mud. Also, I respect the fact that sojourn and duris have a long standing agreement, so under the circumstances it was warranted. However, if I remember correctly, in that case, only objectionable messages were deleted, not the entire thread.

Corth


--->Brugg: Im gonna delete personal attacks and flames, there not welcome here.

[This message has been edited by Brugg (edited 03-27-2001).]
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Postby azzixxenae » Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:10 am

Dominate an innate? not so..think lvl 16 or 21..can't remember.

Ix easy to leave? not til lvl 21 and body control (unless you get some help)..but whatever..kinda like EM but less aggros.

It seems to me that the good sides did more of the higher lvl zones than evils...innate or no innate. What's to be gained by keeping the evil innates? keep with the FR theme..the innates are a BIG PART OF THIS MUD! Drow sign is cool..serves no purpose but is cool. Illithid levitate and drain..not going to solo a zone with it, but does have an RP purpose and fits within the FR.

I'll own you in the arena with levitate.

*Smirk*
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Postby azzixxenae » Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:10 am

oops..posted in wrong thread.

azz
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Postby Jegzed » Tue Mar 27, 2001 3:54 am

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Faerwynd:</font>

What exactly is so _balancing_ about the fog spell Jegzed? You mentioned something about it pissing people off so it wasn't the ultimate spell.

It made so that you could not look out of the current room. Which was kinda bad on Jot grid for example.

And oh yeah, Control Weather works great. Its a little annoying at times cause you gotta stop what you're doing to make it snow/rain... but its quicker than waiting 12 RL minutes for the sun to set.

Did you test that in sojourn2? Did anyone get it to work in soj2? The shamans claimed it did not work anymore and I could never get it to work with my control_weather proccing earring. And believe me, I tried Image

/Jegzed


[This message has been edited by Jegzed (edited 03-26-2001).]
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Postby Jegzed » Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:01 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Faerwynd:
So what exactly is so hard about being an evil again? I want to ask this of the evils and just be honest. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

* Some of the hometowns are tougher.
* It is much harder to get people together because the hometowns are not on a straight road from each other.
* Every major road has aggro-evil paladins and some groups of anti-evil mobs.

OTOH I think that Tethyr should be filled with aggro-evil mobs and that the Hyssk-DK portal should be removed.

/Jegzed
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Postby Jasix Prowlingwolf » Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:09 am

All evil races should have Innate "bubble bath" once a week...
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Postby Mishre » Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:25 am

Hello guys, This subject has always amused me because.. The help files for all evil races state that life for them are supposed to be extremely difficult/almost impossible and you are supposed to bear it without complaining or not to play them at all.. personally, when i played an evil for a short time i didn't notice it being particularly difficult, I thought barbarians were harder to get to WD than trolls were to get out of their hometown (ok, both are easy as long as someone tells you the dir/where to spam Image anyway, I'm a goodie twink that likes things easy but it seemed like evils probably weren't as "challenging for the more experienced players" as i thought they would be. (granted i only tried the squids/druegars/trolls/ogres to about level 7ish, but still, didn't seem to be that impossible task that i was expecting).. i just thought that evils were designed to be more challenging yet more rewarding to play for the ppl who have been here for 10 years and know everything about the mud (so i wont complain if a level 50 troll can beat any goodie 1 on 1, or illithids i understand are really buff at level 50ish) well thats all i have to say on this topic of evils.. doesn't really fit the innates part.. but go ahead and personal flame me, you guys remember my e-mail addy right? Image
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Postby Raiwen » Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:50 am

I used to run a FidoNet BBS over 9600 baud. Later was 14.4k, then 28.8, multi-node, etc...

It was my system, my phone line, my work, my money. I let people use my computer and phone lines... for free. They were my guests. I respected them, and they respected me. But I had the last word. There was no "right" of speech. There was no idea of censorship. It was mine, I let you use it, and if I wanted it there it stayed. If not, I removed it. End of Story.

It would anger me, when people would get on their soap box and proclaim: "Hey! You have no right to censor me!" or "I deserve this and that and over there!"

My view: You deserve nothing. You have no right. This is not a democracy. This is my estate, and I allow you to stay.

I don't know if the Admins feel this way or not. Frankly, it won't bother me any way shape or form. I am their guest. They let me post on their system. I am grateful for that. From what I've seen, they are FAR more patient than I EVER was as a SysOp.

Before you bash a moderator, or Admin, get together about 2 or 3 grand. Get a Co-Lo agreement with an ISP. Get a contract for some bandwidth. If you're lucky, you might get away with maybe $200 a month for 30 - 50 GB of transfer a month with about 4-6 U's of rack space. That's about 128K to 256K worth of continues bandwidth, but you have your slow times and busy times during the day. Put up a MUD, IRC Server, Chat Server, Message Center, or whatever service you want to offer. Download a free copy of whatever you want to use. Spend about a 16 hours getting it to work. Then read the documentation. Print the documentation. Follow the documentation. Spend 4 hours getting your service to actualy work. Spend a week working out the bugs. Advertise it to everyone you can. Let them use it for free. Don't charge for anything. Give it all away for free. Concentrate on that warm fuzzy feeling you'll get. Now, laugh and be polite when a "user" posts a message to you about "how dare you censor my message." Are you really laughing and being polite now?
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Postby Vazzgo » Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:14 am

Half the ppl arguing about evils being easy had never played one and the ones who did played think evils innates worth much more than like posibly:
- getting killed geting outside your town (ghore)
- halfhour+ to get out of your hometown (hyssk and with probabilities of getting killed while trying.. even for high lvls.. i remember seeing corpses of ppl around usually, considering there is no dk gate wich is lame imho)
- not being able to see in the day (drow/duergar/squid, squids get globe but.. at what lvl? how many squids high enuff were there really?, solid fog wasn't exactly the best thing.. and if you think it was.. do you really know what it was? if so you would agree with me, oh yeah.. i can't believe some still think drow innate darkness blocked the sun.. rofl)
- ogres.. so what? they just powerup barbs, nothing much else besides you have aggros around on the map/zones
- So evils can't see on daylight but they have UD.. like if it was a friendly area.. (Duergar Assassin sezz.. "come here kitty kitty dogger..")
- Innates rock? drow get lev.. (who doesn't have the spell?), darkness/ultra (heh, they can't se on daylight.. they so rock yeah right), doggers get invis (can't see on daylight, how many doggers you saw on really?), trolls regen (give a troll 1 min lag on troll hills and you will see troll-bbq), ogres (no comment, they suck imho considering they aggro anti-evil mobs so their powerup should make it worth for them), snakes inates (if you are a caster they suck, if you aren't... anyway.. it's a hell of a long walk.. yeah, remove dk gate), squids (they have levitate.. no comment)

I think evils are not so powered as some think but i wouln't mind making our lives harder as they are... more aggros, harder hometowns... i wonder if ppl will still argue if it happens..
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Postby cherzra » Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:25 am

It's coming from people who had evil alts. They decked their evils out with cheese eq, got a port out of their hometown and then claim that evils are 'easy'. Or it's coming from people who played one to level 7 and said "oh, this is easy".

I mean seriously, what is wrong with evils getting some innates? Are they that insanely powerful? No. Not at all. And they have drawbacks as well. You want to see serious innates? Play duris for a month.

When it was announced that antis and human liches would now be goodies, did anyone evil complain that it would overpower goodies? Nope, it's not a big deal. More power to you. Do evils complain that humans start in Waterdeep, right safely in the middle of things? Nope. Why do many of you then feel the need to complain about evils? Because they regen? That's what trolls do. Because they get 30hp more? Ogres just are big as a house, those 30hp are a fraction of what it should be. Because they can befriend a 20hp snake? Sheesh. Go play the game already so the nitpicking can end.
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Postby Zhadow » Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:29 am

<quote> personally, when i played an evil for a short time i didn't notice it being particularly difficult, I thought barbarians were harder to get to WD than trolls were to get out of their hometown (ok, both are easy as long as someone tells you the dir/where to spam Image </QUOTE>

short time ... i think is not enough for you to post here that barbarians are harder to get to wd than trolls get out of their home town. I played both race and from my experience with the back up of 2 level 40 + barbarian char and 1 level 40 + troll and 1 level 50 troll i think is safe for me to say that troll is much harder to get out of its home town than barbarian getting to wd. The only hindrance that i can think of for barbie is the long journey and if you take the wrong turn. While troll, there is only one way to get out. Through the lizard man. A level 30 + troll without eq can die pretty easy with 2 lizard man. While a level 1 barbarian can easily get to wd if you know the way. What's to compare ????
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:30 am

Hey vazzgo.. Image

I played evils several times. I also have played a shaman alot more. Now im not going to say that evil innates rock, but they are good. As a shaman, we get no levitate or fly, but squids/drow get it innate. Its not a big deal 6-9 months into the game, but at the beginning it is. Duergar have what? Innate invis... yes.. tell me that sucks..

Drow have several innates, and while they arent all super, they all have their uses.
I don't want to go on pointing out each race, but yes innates are good. They arent god powers, but they help, sometimes alot. You really shouldn't go assuming people that post haven't done something or have done something else.

Ugruch - 46 troll warrior
Gromikazer - 37 duergar warrior
Gromikizer - 25 duergar Conjurer
and countless <20 yuan-ti, drow, squids...


To cherzra: None of my chars were given eq, except Ugruch which i transfered a couple pieces of eq after he was level 26... (the eq... suicide sleeves, purple earthstone ring, katana) at level 40 ugruch got a ebony bladed longsword.

[This message has been edited by Galok Icewolf (edited 03-27-2001).]
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Postby Nilan » Tue Mar 27, 2001 6:32 am

As far as those major road with those silly aggro evil paladins on em. they werent just aggro evil race
they hated my ass too....big time *spit*

and they were right outside my home town gates.
was an adventure all around.

Nilan
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Postby Corth » Tue Mar 27, 2001 10:07 am

Raiwen:

I'm not invoking the first amendment or anything... I was merely saying that people are on this sojourn site because, among other things, it was expressed on the non-sojourn discussion board that this bbs would be open to free and uncensored discussion. I was also making the related point that even if several messages in the thread had no value whatsoever as mud discussion, many messages did, and that i felt it was inappropriate to delete those messages along with the ones that Brugg objected to.

Since this thread has continued on the same topic, I think my criticism has been vindicated. The topic itself is not objectionable, certain posts on the thread were. Of course, people no longer have the opportunity to consider the many points of view that were legitimately expressed previously.

Corth
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Postby Elscint » Tue Mar 27, 2001 12:58 pm

Well by the sound of D2's post, goodies will get liches as well. God knows why, it sounds totally absurd to me. Anyway, this will mean evils only have psis over goodies, while goodies will have way more classes at their disposal (plus, unless evils get an anti for one of their races, evils will lose access to the anti class). And goodie group restricts have been eased significantly.

That was originally posted by Cherzra in the Mud Ideas Forum under the thread human necro's and lich started by Liegashia...

Am I trying to flame? No, I'm simply replying to the fact that though I may agree with you that evils should not lose their innates etc.. you need to calm down... it's a game dude.. relax.. and now you are contradicting yourself.. everything got ugly just chill.. do you really believe the immortals are going to take away all those things from the evils because 1 person posted that they should consider it? especially after so many people post that they shouldn't... I'm sure if you keep this civil they will notice.. so relax, have a beer laugh at yourself.. and maybe oh my gosh this is a big one.. be the bigger person and apologize.. after all you did complain that goodies might get liches I just showed you that you did =P I'm not trying to be a complete prick cause you aren't the only one.. just an example everyone needs to take a step back and laugh once in awhile.. it's ansi text on a computer monitor.. you wanna show me how tough you are? Let's form up teams and play a game of rugby then I'll respect how 'tough' you are.. all this posturing and name calling on a bbs over a text game is ridiculous...

Elscint Hairytoes (The Halfling Sorcerer)
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Postby Ruhr » Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:08 pm

Rugby? Now that you can count me in for. I played 2nd row in college, still got my nut-hugging shorts and cleats. Let's rumble!
imp
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Postby imp » Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:22 pm

Whats the problem with you lot?

What does it matter if goodie or evil side is better at some lvls as longs as both sides are able to do the major zones?

From what I've seen on s2 and read here goodies do the difficult zones a lot earlier than evils either cause of skill/numbers/eq or race benefits , either way that would make goodies easier huh?

Just because its cheese-easy(tm) to exp a troll in bg doesnt mean trolls ARE easy and drow memtimes are nice BUT one or two classes/races isnt enough for a zone-group so try and look at it from a wider perspective.


/imp

PS. Ever taken a stroll with an evil race from DK to IC w/o fly/invis? DS.
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Postby Brugg » Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:53 pm

Well it really dosent matter wether you felt it was appropriate or not (the rock aura) hehe no for real though. There were OOOODLES of flames in that thread, it had to go man. Any time i see PERSONAL attacks more than a few times on a thread im gonna delete the whole thread if its a relatively small one like that one was, because by deleting the thread you take out everything that had anything to do with that flame. I feel that if i dont delete the whole thread i might miss something and the flames will continue.
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Postby Liegashia » Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:06 pm

why is a lich grouping with the good races absurd?....just because they are labeled as a good race doesnt mean they are good align....and if you think about it....why would a lich waste his time with ignorant trolls and ogres, when he could deal with a more dominant and intelligent race like humans?
my two cents
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Postby Koric » Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Brugg:
Well it really dosent matter wether you felt it was appropriate or not (the rock aura) hehe no for real though. There were OOOODLES of flames in that thread, it had to go man. Any time i see PERSONAL attacks more than a few times on a thread im gonna delete the whole thread if its a relatively small one like that one was, because by deleting the thread you take out everything that had anything to do with that flame. I feel that if i dont delete the whole thread i might miss something and the flames will continue.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, the thread became nothing more than one purely for the sake of attacking one another. There were some valid points for both sides but the discussion became more involved in the sake of flaming rather than the subject matter.
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Postby cherzra » Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:31 pm

Re: Elscint.

If you're going to quote me, please have the decency to do it in a correct way, instead of taking everything out of its context.

I wrote what you quoted, FOLLOWED BY "Now I don't care about this since I play evil ..."
Get it? As in 'more power to you, enjoy what you get I'm not gonna whine to take it away from you' or 'nice you get liches too have fun with em'. Nowhere in that post am I complaining about goodies, that post was about evils.


[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 03-27-2001).]
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Postby Elscint » Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:47 pm

Cherzra

I'm not trying to start a war of words with you. I'm sorry you feel as though I mis quoted you, the feeling I got from that post was very much stating that you didn't like the fact that goodies got this and that and evils seemed to be getting down graded or whatnot. I am not all for goodies getting more and evils getting less, I'm for balance and how ever the immortals come to gain this I really have no problem with it. I will play what ever class/race I feel will be the most advantageous for me. Again if you feel as though I've wrongly accused you of something I'm sorry, that was not my intent. The intent of that post was not directed at specifically you but rather the ridiculous behaviour personified in yours and Ilsha's posts most significantly. It is after all a game all I'm trying to say is chill out dude... take a step back.. is it really worth getting all upset about? What happens when someday down the road you go to a big gathering of all sorts of sojourn people? Are you gonna be rude to certain people because though you may have a common interest in the game and that's why everyone is there but you've got a big 'problem' with them? C'mon it's a game man it's a common interest we all love and play it.. relax the imms will do whatever they will do there is very little we can do to change that, voice your opinions sure.. but why can't we keep all the four letter words and personal slams out of it?

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Postby cherzra » Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:56 pm

I never wrote any four letter words anywhere, the biggest word I ever used was 'whiner' Image

The game needs to just open up so we can all stop hanging around this board with nothing better to do Image
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Postby Treladian » Tue Mar 27, 2001 7:13 pm

I don't think most people complaining are so much concerned with innates as just whether or not evils are difficult in general. Innates are useful at lower levels and even seemingly useless innates can be very useful (namely spells that most people discount like faerie fire and innate invis made my life as a ranger much easier once I learned how to get the most out of them), but I think most people are more concerned with the hometown difficulty or lack thereof in some cases. Big difference between Hyssk (probably the coolest hometown on the mud IMO even if I managed to get myself killed multiple times in an hour as a lowbie) and DK for example. And BG is a pretty safe haven once you make it out so. Simple solution to that would be just to pop in some aggro-evil race mobs in BG. Innates don't really have much to do with it IMO (though I think that trolls should also have problems with acid damage since that's traditionally been the other way to kill them but that's another can of worms.)

Okay, back to studying for a midterm . . .
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Postby Mishre » Tue Mar 27, 2001 7:18 pm

Hmm.. I'm just wondering, For you personally: Why do you want to play an evil rather than a goodie? ask yourself that.. I think evils should be stronger than the goodies (the idea that the way that they have survived with fewer numbers is that they are stronger/better).. and all those splats or dooms that ppl talk about should happen, i did play an evil on duris, wow, that was a change, i typed pract when i got in, no trainer there.. i was in the middle of a town, i moved 1n, Pkow, something aggroed me 1 hit death.. now that was rather challenging, a spellcaster trying to find the way out of a hometown full of aggies and no way to scribe spells because there is no trainer there... well anyway, why are you playing an evil? is it because you need it to be more challenging than when you play a goodie? is zoning more challengining and you have to discover new ways of doing it? I think in this kind of discusion you need to ask what to the admins have in mind for the different races, why did they make them this way? from the help id venture to guess they wanted to make something very difficult to play, at first im sure it was.. but soon everyone was passing out directions to get out of Ghore so it took away part of that challenge that the admins had originally put in.. im not sure what other challenges were desiginged for the other races (except the not being able to see in the day, that seems pretty tough.. till you get to higher levels.. what makes level 30-50ish harder for evils than for goodies? sorry about rambling on so much.. i respect all of you guys (evils and goodies) who can make it past level 40 Image oh, and just incase you are wondering, yes i got my level 1 barbarian to WD much slower than getting my level 1 troll to.. whatever that town is..i had directions to both.. only difference is the distance/wind makes the trip for the barbie really slow... and when you are trying to go get a corpse the minutes seem to drag out Image im sure it must suck trying to run through the lizards and getting killed when doing a CR though.. (i didn't seem to have a problem with it though as long as i spammed the directions (IE: N;n;n;n;n;e;n;n;e;n or whatever they were).. that way even if i ran into lag on my end it was already all sent at once to Toril (I believe thats how it works Image..

[This message has been edited by Mishre (edited 03-27-2001).]
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Postby azzixxenae » Tue Mar 27, 2001 7:46 pm

I play evil only because all the peeps I enjoy MUD'ding with play evil. The innates come with the race...it's not like they (imms) pulled them out of their arse.

At least the innates for Drow, Duergar, Troll, and Illithid. Yuan-ti is the exception but makes for a cool race although imo is balanced since missing some key caster slots.

shrug.

If i asked what innates goodie races have that are mentioned in FR or Dragonlance books..what would the response be?

Two more days.
Az
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Postby Treladian » Tue Mar 27, 2001 10:26 pm

Azz, in response to what innates good races get in D&D, here are the ones I remember off the top of my head (from 2nd edition. A few have changed in 3rd but the mud's based on a mix of 1st and 2nd edition):

Elves
+1 to hit with long swords, short swords, and all bows.
90% resistance to sleep and charm related spells.
High chance to notice hidden doors when in their vicinity (forget exact numbers)
Infravision
A few more, but I don't remember at the moment.

Halfelves
30% resistance to sleep and charm related spells
Not quite as high of a chance to notice hidden doors as full blooded elves, but still a pretty good one.
Again, a few more I think I'm missing.

Dwarves
Bonuses to saves vs. poison and spells based on their constitution.
+1 to hit against orcs and hobgoblins.
-4 bonus to AC against giants, trolls, and ogres
And a bunch of abilities related to telling things about stonework.

Can't really remember stuff for halflings and gnomes.
Kaeldar
Sojourner
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2001 6:01 am
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Postby Kaeldar » Wed Mar 28, 2001 1:31 am

Fatal Flaws of Humanity

People almost universally form into groups and hold negative attitudes toward other, competing groups. When people believe that their rights and their group pride have been injured by someone from another group, they are all to often ready to respond in a violent fashion that goes beyond any practical or instrumental use. Groups are a vital part of human social life and are neccessary for survival, but they also reflect a built-in predisposition toward antagonism.

Kaeldar
Invoker

What did you expect?
Jurdex
Sojourner
Posts: 774
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: New Orleans, La, USA

Postby Jurdex » Wed Mar 28, 2001 2:00 am

Fatal Flaws of Humanity

Utter disregard for that which comes into contrast with that which they hold valuable or wanted. Necessity breeds competition, but want spawns a whole other affair - reckless indignation.

Jurdex

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