The plight of the hooman necro

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Tanras
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The plight of the hooman necro

Postby Tanras » Mon Apr 02, 2001 9:01 pm

Hi,

Was doing some thinking about starting hometowns and realized that of all race/class combos, human necros quite possibly have it the worst. At the beginning of a wipe, the only way out of bloodstone is with a couple plat and invis. Inside bloodstone there are aggressive mobs that guards love to assist. On top of that, the only warrior types to be found in bloodstone to tank for said helpless necro are antipaladins.(And the starting areas for the 2 classes are far enough apart that it is a major health risk for one to get to the other.

I used to take all of this in stride, thinking that choosing an outcast char should be more difficult. But now 1. Outcasting has changed and 2. Even evils have prime exp real estate in zk. Beginning to think bloodstone needs to be made a little easier, all i am suggesting is have the insane mobs not be assisted by guards, this would solve all problems.

Would still need invis to get out but at least you could do some exp inside bloodstone without getting whacked by guards for trying to flee from insane women and men.

Thanks,
Tanras



[This message has been edited by Tanras (edited 04-02-2001).]
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Postby Vigis » Mon Apr 02, 2001 9:04 pm

What I loved most about bloodstone was that you could buy a magnificent warhorse. Only thing was, once you led it out of the stable the guards would smite you and it because it was a goodie horse. Took me a couple of times to realize why that was happening. That poor little anti pal of mine Image

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Postby Zuurn Shatter Skull » Mon Apr 02, 2001 9:29 pm

Boy, BS sounds alot like Ghore.




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Postby Tanras » Mon Apr 02, 2001 9:41 pm

with the exception that ghore = warriors and soloing as a level 1-10 human necro just aint gunna happen Image

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Postby izarek » Mon Apr 02, 2001 9:47 pm

and that alot more ppl call ghore their hometown, especially now.
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Postby Gormal » Mon Apr 02, 2001 10:18 pm

Cry me a river Bunger! *spams fart tanras for 15 minutes* You whiner Image
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Postby Zuurn Shatter Skull » Mon Apr 02, 2001 10:21 pm

Granted. Just saying it sounds the same.



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Postby Blung » Mon Apr 02, 2001 10:41 pm

Give me a break. Each hometown have their own way of justice code. The purpose of Guards is to protect it citizens. If you can't handle that, play some other class. Hyssk have aggro inside and outside of town.
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Postby Koric » Mon Apr 02, 2001 11:13 pm

Agreed, the guards should kill the insane to protect the vile necro and most definitely the honorable antipal.
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Postby Tanras » Tue Apr 03, 2001 3:24 am

Blung, never said aggros should be removed, reread it and try again.(there are aggros inside and outside of BS too)

I think guards should not assist aggro mobs, honorable or not, when someone starts a fight the guards shouldnt whoop the person who didnt start it. Also if I type score it says im a citizen of bloodstone, guess that doesnt count?

The citizen population of bloodstone is the lowest of any city, this is why it is far more difficult than hyssk. There simply isnt anyone to group with. Older players might be able to get by this, new ones cant.

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Postby Me » Tue Apr 03, 2001 4:07 am

1) Long ago, I would curse walking into a room with an insane and immediately being killed. Nowadays, I can just "look north" and such, to confirm that my path is clear. This allows someone who is both careful and patient to navigate BS with ease, especially with max wimpy on while walking around.

2) Life for an early necro is difficult, especially when you don't have a friendly neighborhood alt around to pass equiment and black keys from. But it's not impossible. Being essentially alone in BS (although after the alpha I would expect an increased Anti population, likely negating this whole thread), necromancers will have to spend considerable amounts of time killing worthless things over and over just to scrape together the cash and levels to get out.

3) I love this. This is how playing one of the difficult race/classes should be. Playing a human necromancer is not for the meek; in my opinion, these sorts of things make the class all the more rarely played, and thus special. There is nothing hard about the issues raised, they are easily solved with patience and care. For those without an abundance of these qualities? I'll be happy to open the black gate for 'ya; you'd probably find Waterdeep more to your liking.

Bring on the insanes. I can run away with the best of 'em.

[This message has been edited by Me (edited 04-03-2001).]
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Postby cherzra » Tue Apr 03, 2001 8:52 am

I'd like to comment on this, since my very very first character ever on toril was a human necro in BS.


It IS possible to level up and gather your 2 plat, even as a newbie player with absolutely NO clue on the game, how to map something, and all that.

Granted, it took me a month to get to level 5, but that was because at that time I had no idea on how to level. Coming from your standard Midgaard ROM mud, I had never played in any town as large as BS.

But once I learned where the colored fish were, where the sleeping men, women and children were, where the antipaladin tree was, leveling was not hard anymore. Yes, you have to watch out for insanes, but it's nothing more than look <direction>, scan, or running along so they won't hit you even if you don't scan ahead.

As for antis and necros starting far away from each other, that's not true at all. Head north out of the nec guild, take the ladder up, west, come back down in front of the inn, and run through the street north, west, south, east and you are at the anti guild already.

Sorry, BS is *NOT* hard. You just have to watch for those 3 insanes, that's all. Especially if you are an experience player, which I think you are.

p.s my 2nd char was an anti, he made it to level 21 in two months, but by that time he had gathered 1000 plat for a 2h mith warhammer. All in BS alone, I never left that town.
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Postby vynigumba » Tue Apr 03, 2001 12:28 pm

Well I have to agree with the Troll.
yes, I love Bloodstone the way it is.. even if..

1) I was killed a lot by insanes and guard rushing from the guild to the city doors, to get my corpse in CP in time.

2) I was killed by manticores, wolves and so on in the path just outside the city. (also getting my corpse).. (who the hell let the huge manticore out?, that thing was killing me past lvl 30!! I guess it was global tracker!)

3) I had to have an alternate character with a lot of black key

4) I had to wait hours for someone to open the doors in the case i didnt have a key.

5) I had to pay that knight 2 plat every time i wanted to go back ..!!!!

6) Bloodstone citizen tracks!.. and best, they flee for more than a room Image

7) the boards are empty, and there are not players around, no trades, no social life, no groups besides those evils (now outcasted?, finally! ..dont want stinky ogres around)

8) Best of all... I remember buying a pet for something like 50 plat. as soon as i get it.. Executioner comes and kills (in the order) the pet and me. (wonder if this is still the case)

Well, that is excitement.. I didnt see much of difficulty in killing mobs as a necro
just take more time (thats the way it should be). Low level necromancers are very difficult. Especially after wipes, when there is no equip to beef them up..... you should be aware of this.

the only real pain is when you die an lose a level (and lose hp!). this is going to happen if you dont stick to the same mobs over and over, and even so.. (but that is just boring)..

anyway, I think, i will not play a necromancer this time, after all they are somewhat boring and antisocial. Probably I will get something that is more toward exploration outside prime (druid).

Vynigumba, proud (ex)citizen of Bloodstone.

BTW who can enter the city now? Evil races? Good alligned? ... or nothing changed?
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Postby Gormal » Tue Apr 03, 2001 3:53 pm

Its been a long while since I played a char homed in Bloodstone, so I'm not sure if evils can home there or not. If they cannot then I have to agree with Tanras.

Evil races are supposed to have it tougher then the goodie races. Since necros aren't even outcasted and can group with all goodies now there truly isnt a need to make them _that_ much tougher then the other goodies.

For the sake of argument I'll say antis are equal to paladins (don't go off on the validity of this) but necros should be a tad harder. Mostly at higher levels.

From what Tanras told me, necros are not the soloing class they used to be until higher levels...when they get ghouls and such and become spanky again. So why make it harder for people to just get one out of the hometown?

From a roleplay perspective its not realistic to have guards running around assisting the mentally unstable citizens of a town. For a town as despicable as BS you'd think the Justice system wouldn't be quite as stringent as in another place as the guards would be used to underhanded dealings and would know who are the town loons.


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Postby Silverast Rubicyn » Tue Apr 03, 2001 5:25 pm

With new mob changes, I think it wouldnt be too much to ask for what Tanras wanted, a level 1 mage class cant even kill a level 1 mob solo.
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Postby Marforp » Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:19 pm

I agree with what Tanras said. The biggest difference between ghore and BS is that BS you are locked inside and need two plat to get out which takes a new character a long long time to get. Secondly with the new code it takes long enough to hit a high enough level to kill something with cash you will end up starving due to minor c being 2nd circle.

Honestly if it wasn't for the difficulty of getting food I could deal with soloing untill I level and end up with two plat, but without minor c being first circle or cash loading on the rats and bats your screwed.

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Postby Somerled » Wed Apr 04, 2001 1:14 am

Necromancers are traditionally THE solo class ... bar none ... the additional spells they received were a wonderfull addition, but are they worth the "weakened" pets? It appears that due to the removal of grouping restrictions the Necromancer may become something different that what it has been in the past? Are the pets of the Conj or Shaman capable of being as as huge as they used to be? If not, then where does that now place the role of the pet owner? Are Necros, Shaman and Conj pets to be of the same "power" level? Will groups now look for first a big PC warrior, then fall back to a Shaman/Pet, or Conj/Mental pet, or Necro/Undead pet? Of course it has always been the mindset to grab a nice Shaman or Conj pet combo for groups, but certainly this has never been the intended use for the Necro and his pets. The necros pets have always been primarily for thier benefit alone, but now .. how will it be? Years back when RL wasnt very busy for me I always played Rangers, or Bards, etc. ... but, RL takes up most all my time now and I simply dont have the hours needed for grouping.. and so the Necro has in fact been my class of choice for the last few years because when pets are gained, the Necro doesnt really need anyone and makes his own group .. allowing me to simply log on and play, no asking for groups, no having to stay on hours upon hours, log on adn log off whenever .. Is this soloing class becoming less solo? I certainly hope not.
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Postby Tanras » Wed Apr 04, 2001 2:39 am

since wraiths dont have stoneskin, necros will not really be able to solo until they have ghouls at level 41. Their new spells are useful, but I do not think they make up in power for the loss in pet power. 90 percent of necro power always came from pets, so the downgraded pets hit them hardest.

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Postby vynigumba » Wed Apr 04, 2001 12:17 pm

Totally agree with Somerled.
The necromancer is going to be a completely new class. Not sure if this is all bad, BUT MANY PEOPLE NEED A SOLO CLASS.. No everyone of us has 16 hours of play a day....
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Postby Gormal » Wed Apr 04, 2001 8:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by vynigumba:
<B> BUT MANY PEOPLE NEED A SOLO CLASS.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you need a solo class go play another MUD.

Not to be overly harsh but this is not a solo mud. As they were necros weren't even truly THE solo class as they had no way to get to anywhere off prime and had no relocate spells etc. Other classes can solo if you are looking for a challenge. Don't hope to solo just because you don't like to group though.



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Postby Somerled » Thu Apr 05, 2001 12:54 am

Gormal ... you say Soj is not a solo mud ... that goes without saying, but ... as any Necro will tell you .. the necromancer has always been a solo class ... and being a solo player has nothing to do with being able to travel from plane to plane or being able to relocate .. how often have you seen high level Necros in groups compared to high level sorcs or vokers .. rare, because from roughly mid level on ... they dont need anyone. I have played Toril/Soj since Soj 1, and the Necro has ALWAYS been a class played most by soloists, this is an undeniable fact, there have NEVER been many Necros, typically being fewer Necros than any other class, the class has always been one of the most difficult to play, with one of the largest if not the largest of exp tables class vs class ... the reasons for someones preference of playing solo is not relevant, wether or not they choose to be solo because they are anti social, or as with myself and Vyn ... simply dont have the time to spend 6 hours a day play time because other aspects of our lives take precedence ... as Vyn stated .. many NEED a solo class due to RL time constraints, I hate to stick my neck out ... but It wouldnt upset me greatly for the Necros to have grouping restrics placed on them again, or even lose a few of the nifty new spells to get back some pet powers, as I am sure many of the dedicated Necros would not mind either. The only beef I ever had before was that Necros couldnt go into WD.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Apr 05, 2001 3:16 am

Tanras-
Experience, greycloak, and minor stuff aside. How much stuff did you solo that mattered? Even after you liched. Could you do crypts tf brass jot...any of those types of zones solo? could you even solo vault before liching? after?

Being able to solo exp does not make a class a solo class. most necros were solo simply because goodies would rather group paladins and rangers then an inexperienced necro....there were maybe 3 that were generally considered to _know_ the class last wipe.

It seemed to me that necros (and subsequently liches) were a large part of evilrace groups. Most of the evil logs i have seen contain at least one.

As to some players needing a solo class because of time constraints: Who said you need 6 hours to do anything? Done well most zones could happen in under 4. And do you honestly think that a major class change needs to be done because of a few people who "need" to have a class capable of _easily_ solo things. Get a group of friends, get a guild, make the best use of the time you have and don't make your personal life a responsibility of the Staff.



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Postby Tanras » Thu Apr 05, 2001 7:39 am

Necromancers strength has always been their solo alility. I am actually in favor of the efforts to make them a more group friendly class by adding some new spells, but I also believe they are not as powerful as they were last wipe. I am not playing one for numerous reasons including this one. They will be a fun class to play with but anyone fooling themselves with soloing ability beyond what they were able to do with 2 vamps last wipe are foolin' themselves. At level 41 ghouls will become a plus but it wont be until 48+ that necros come into their own and this means less than it once did.

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Postby vynigumba » Thu Apr 05, 2001 11:41 am

...
Waterdeep... where the hell is that place?
I doubt I ever got into that city in any form.

As soloist against mob: I was able to kill a lot of GC stuff. But A LOT of classes where able to do so. You were find a Necromancers there mainly because was near BS. And almost all Labby (besides the spider and the knight). Also a lot of minor mobs good for experience but weak in equipment. My equipments has always been bad compared to any other people my level.

I wonder why most of the people hated necromancers. I guess was because they killed mob in zones (see tower for example).

like Tanras, I am not going to play a necromancer but my reason is mainly because they do not explore well. I wonder how many of the old core necromancer will be around.

And since I hate WD I may well stay in the evil side. (race)
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Postby Jegzed » Thu Apr 05, 2001 12:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by vynigumba:
I wonder how many of the old core necromancer will be around.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Keshiss, Ssryth and Zortan will be back, and that was the core necromancers from last wipe. (Goodies don't count *pokes Tanras*)

/Jegzed
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Postby Sissith » Thu Apr 05, 2001 3:34 pm

I will probably play a necro, but I have a
feeling since necros are going to HAVE to group I will end up getting pissed off and playing something else...
who will want a necro unless it is someone who has made a name for themself ? I doubt much of anyone will even remember my name, heh.

At any rate, I am another who played a necro because of time constraints IRL, and because it was a solo class. Mebbe play a shaman, or at least something useful like a cleric if the necro doesn't pan out.

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Postby Todrael » Thu Apr 05, 2001 8:13 pm

I was wondering why it is that Necromancers aren't wanted in a group? We now get some rather interesting damage spells, blackmantle, a couple other new spells.. I intend to make the class work, no matter what, and I intend to group as much as I possibly can. I was just wondering why everyone keeps saying this guild is a solo guild, that can't solo and requires groups? Maybe you need to change your thinking to the new class structure.
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Postby Tanras » Thu Apr 05, 2001 9:24 pm

Tod,

No offense intended, but compared to any other class, necros are not group friendly. You give more to the group as any other class after you hit level 20ish. Certainly there are exceptions to this rule, but the new spells, while fun, do not even come close to the damage level of a voker or the utility of an enchanter. Blackmantle will be useful in a VERY few situations and only then because necros wont be able to do anything more useful. I like the necro class as a solo class, but I grouped a lot last wipe and unless the group is built around the necro they become a pain in the arse cuz of needing the right level corpses for pets etc. They also cant do anything to undead mobs which include quite a few of the higher level encounters in the game.

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Postby Somerled » Fri Apr 06, 2001 12:49 am

New spell idea? Necros now dont have access to Stone anymore as it was taken away from Wraiths correct? And I certainly dont think that they should have it for thier own, that would without a doubt screw up caster balance, how about giving Necros a new spell similar to stone skin that ONLY works on undead, ie. "boneskin" .. it would not detract from any of the other caster classes in anyway and would allow the necro to better utilize his own pets and give the necro back some of thier ability to go it alone. Comments?

[This message has been edited by Somerled (edited 04-05-2001).]
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Postby Todrael » Fri Apr 06, 2001 2:02 am

I'm amazed at how simple and yet direct that suggestion addresses the problem.. I'm all for it, and don't think it would unbalance the class.
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Postby Sszantiel/Morthor » Fri Apr 06, 2001 2:15 am

That is a pretty nifty idea.
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Postby izarek » Fri Apr 06, 2001 2:35 am

Somerled, this decayed 'thumbs up' is for you!

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Postby Tanras » Fri Apr 06, 2001 5:20 am

I like this idea a lot actually. . .liches could bone themselves!

I see promise in that.

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Postby Bopple » Fri Apr 06, 2001 5:33 am

Isn't it even more group-unfriendly than the status with stoneskin?
If you can stone(or bone whatever) only undeads, the role of necro in group will shrink even more.
How about stoneskin in place of globe?

[This message has been edited by Bopple (edited 04-06-2001).]
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Postby Zortan » Fri Apr 06, 2001 5:42 am

Very good idea.
7th circle I think be perfect for it right when you get wraiths...
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Apr 06, 2001 6:24 am

Bonskin is an interesting idea, it might be the perfect compromise.

And I don't see how it could take away from Necros, as they currently do not have the stone spell. *boggle*

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Postby Marforp » Fri Apr 06, 2001 6:39 am

I have to vote against the whole stone undead idea. Honestly the fact that necro's will now need to group with ONE person is not a major draw back and is only one small step above the solo ability they had last time. A necro will now have to find a shaman, conjurer, or enchanter who has gained mid-20's to do what they did last time (actually a little more since you would have two people in the group). This is not a MAJOR draw back for the new spells that necros have gotten and the new ability to group with all sorts of people.

The removal of globe would be a rather large draw back for the group ability of necros. Often there are more then 5 hitters meaning a second sorc/enchanter had to be in groups. As Marforp I ended up being in these groups many time and it honestly is soooo boring. The job of the 2nd enchanter is just globing, because its rare that the first enchanter will run out of dragonscales/stone skin before you need globe again (and that's ignoring that you probably have a conj with you to toss a few stones people way).

The new necro's are great and with the new toy spells it opens up the possibility if you bother to think about how you can abuse them.

Marforp / Sasdor

p.s. Necro is claimed to be the solo class since the beginning. This may or may not be true. I would argue that druids w/ heal and doom were better soloists. This is especially true since they could travel everywhere with well.
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Postby Sszantiel/Morthor » Fri Apr 06, 2001 9:42 am

A great thing about "boneskin" would be that it would take up a slot so we could choose whether we want to protect our pet or use the slot for damage in a group. Seems to open up both worlds.

Plus I really really wanna bone my undead! Oh my!

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Postby Todrael » Fri Apr 06, 2001 11:34 am

Although I would like to group with people as often as possible, and plan on doing so, as a Necromancer, my options will be limited. I'm probably going to rely on my friends for groups, and solo whenever they aren't around. I want to make as many friends and have a good time in the group environment, as well as do zones/etc. Adding boneskin to the class would, in my opinion, make almost everyone happy with the situation, albeit making the necro class seem more dependent on soloing, it only adds a greater ability to the option instead.
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Postby vynigumba » Fri Apr 06, 2001 2:02 pm

Boneskin
I like this idea .. will make the class even more challenging. I mean much more difficult to play than before. I am not sure if it should be able to "bone" ghouls as well.
The fact that the lich could bone himself is excellent... after all maybe that is going to be a good reward for the quest.

Btw, a stoner will not replace the ability of old wraiths to autostone themselves properly Image... I mean MAYBE a stoner with a LOT of stoneskins...
But you know, which stoner is going to group with the lone necromancer? prolly few.

Also , do those "wraiths" still have auto vampiric touch?
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Postby cherzra » Fri Apr 06, 2001 2:53 pm

Rofl... boneskin...

I couldn't stop thinking about the exact 'affects' of this spell while reading the thread... lol.


Cast 'boner' me


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Postby Somerled » Sat Apr 07, 2001 4:47 pm

Well Ill be .. old Somer came up with a good Idea. As I said, It absolutely takes away from NO ONE ... and as someone posted the thing about Necros now needing to find a Stoner, comon .. how many stoners out there are going to want to do a "two person" group when there will be so many more offers out there for larger groups, Stoners are absolutely KEY to good groups and they will always be busy with grop efforts, most all classes have something measurable to offer in a group, the Necro has relatively little because the class is specifically designed to take advantage of thier undead rather than additional group members, isnt that the entire scope of Necromancy, using undead to to ones bidding .. how many Necros has anyone ever seen on, maybe at one time .. possibly 6 total out of a few hundred players, the Necro is a relatively rarely played class ... giving him this one single spell beneficial only to himself ... would detract from nothing, unbalance nothing .. oh ... and you career Necros caught something about this spell idea that I didnt think of originally ... because this spell would work on undead only .. a Lich could boneskin "himself" ... that is awsome ... didnt think of that one! Image

Regards

[This message has been edited by Somerled (edited 04-07-2001).]
Clartok
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Postby Clartok » Sun Apr 08, 2001 9:58 am

I nearly reached 50 as a human Necro from Bloodstone so many years ago! It was a lot of hard work, but the necro was definitly one of the most respected classes back in the day. I loved typing "who necro" and seeing only 6-7 on, compared to the 60 warriors or 35 clerics.
Todrael
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Postby Todrael » Mon Apr 09, 2001 11:12 pm

Any word on the boneskin idea? Everyone seems to be waiting to see whether it's going to be put in or not before they think of making a necro char in beta. Would love to know if it's on the list of changes.
Somerled
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Postby Somerled » Mon Apr 09, 2001 11:55 pm

Yeah .. hey Shev ... any feedback?

Regards

Somerled
Ssryth
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Postby Ssryth » Tue Apr 10, 2001 3:59 am

Boneskin will be a neat idea.. but will have to be monitored very carefully and balanced.... the way necros are (were).. any benefit to undead pets, no matter how minor, can easily blow balance out of the water.

Ssryth
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Postby Karikhan » Tue Apr 10, 2001 9:16 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>Rofl... boneskin...

I couldn't stop thinking about the exact 'affects' of this spell while reading the thread... lol.


Cast 'boner' me


Cherzra - watches too much Beavis and Butthead</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only you, Cherzra :P

-Kari
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Postby vynigumba » Tue Apr 10, 2001 11:34 am

Boneskin will still be a mayor downgrade for necro..

Common practice was to send wraiths in and kill everything while the necromancer waited outside probably sitting on a pile of corpses (GC werewolf typical case).
Now, in the case that boneskin is going to be implemented the necromancer need to stay in the same room with his undead to give them orders. This will make some battles much more risky and some others probably impossible. (Werewolf now will switch, bash and kill the poor necro)
In any case the class will be much more difficult to play (which is good).

I strongly support boneskin..
even if I will play something else.
Actually, i hope that illusionist will be a pure exploration class, with a lot of elusive spells and some sort of little pet.

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