*Groups....
You can call me antisocial, snob, elitarist or whatever you like but..
After thinking to it for a while I realized that I hate being in groups.
Especially high level zoning groups..
Why?
Lets see...
1) 90% of the time I had no clue of what was going on.
2) 99% of the fights were just plain routine, not involving any skill or anything else than pressing some F key and setting good triggers.
3) Group spam irritates me.
4) I had control on nothing. (well.. maybe i could have choosen which spell to cast 1st)
5) Zones that should have taken 2 hours ended after 6 and several CR.
6) I didnt think I ever make any substantial difference to the group (win/death).
7) If group leader screws up the group is gone.
That's why after starting a enchanter, I decided I had to go for Necromancer.
The class had everything I needed. Basically, I had my little undead group and I was the group leader.
I was taking tremendous risks, I was continuosly exploring new places and, looking for rares and try to kill them was giving me always good excitment.
My equipment wasnt any close to the one of other players but served the purpose. I had sets of "exploration equipment" I dindt bother to corpse rescue several times.
Now things changed. Necromancers are not what they were. I believe they served a purpose and that they were useful for the economy of the mud as a whole. They are still extremely powerful and the Lich ability will eventually attract several players. I believe the average player will enjoy the class more now.
But, in any case I was ready to play another class.
Which class I dont know, what I am sure is that it will be suitable to lead groups. Other players will be pretty much like my old wraiths, I guess I would have to modify some command triggers, although, I hope response will be more immediate. I will be able to take even more risks and explore even more places.
What is sure for them, is that point 1 to 6 will still be valid.
Sorry to be sarcastic, but I believe that 90% of the fun in this game is to lead groups. Unfortunately, this is only for few. The rest "follow me".
Anybody agree?
I hate groups!
agree and disagree.
I agree that the mud should have a solo class. No reason to enforce society on loners. Also, nobody ever said necromancers were easy. Perhaps powerful at high levels, but really difficult to get there. I dont think they were overpowered.
I agree especially with points 2 and 5.
Gameplay has gotten weaker as the mud has carved out more niches for the different classes. Each class is now a cog in the machine. The philosophy should be to make classes more well rounded as opposed to making them more specialized.
The mud is also too time consuming (point 5). People brag about their ptime. I think its ridiculous. It just tells me they've spent way too much of their life "resting for moves", "recovering from res", doing mundane experience mobs over and over, etc.
Where i disagree with you is your asssertion that it is more fun for leaders. Leaders have to deal with people who whine because they didn't get a piece of eq, someone they don't like is in the group, someone they like isn't in the group, etc. Even when they're not whining, players go afk at the worst moment, don't listen to directions (thus necessitating those long cr's), suddenly realize they have to go immediately.. when they're the only glober in brass.. etc.
Thus, players are far inferior to pets!
Corth
[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 04-16-2001).]
I agree that the mud should have a solo class. No reason to enforce society on loners. Also, nobody ever said necromancers were easy. Perhaps powerful at high levels, but really difficult to get there. I dont think they were overpowered.
I agree especially with points 2 and 5.
Gameplay has gotten weaker as the mud has carved out more niches for the different classes. Each class is now a cog in the machine. The philosophy should be to make classes more well rounded as opposed to making them more specialized.
The mud is also too time consuming (point 5). People brag about their ptime. I think its ridiculous. It just tells me they've spent way too much of their life "resting for moves", "recovering from res", doing mundane experience mobs over and over, etc.
Where i disagree with you is your asssertion that it is more fun for leaders. Leaders have to deal with people who whine because they didn't get a piece of eq, someone they don't like is in the group, someone they like isn't in the group, etc. Even when they're not whining, players go afk at the worst moment, don't listen to directions (thus necessitating those long cr's), suddenly realize they have to go immediately.. when they're the only glober in brass.. etc.
Thus, players are far inferior to pets!
Corth
[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 04-16-2001).]
I agree with Corth on the group leaders part.
How stressfull it must be to make sure everyone has their correct 'assignments' and to always be paying attention to the rooms around us while keeping an eye on the group, who is still memming etc.
ugh.
I think one of the most stress-free classes with respect to grouping is the bard. Especially if you have everthing triggered. Just have your computer beep whenever the string "*group*sing*" comes by when the leader instructs you to sing a new song and then all you have to do is type in a command. Hell, you could prolly even trigger song requests too!
*giggle*
Noke / Nokie Quickfingers!
How stressfull it must be to make sure everyone has their correct 'assignments' and to always be paying attention to the rooms around us while keeping an eye on the group, who is still memming etc.
ugh.
I think one of the most stress-free classes with respect to grouping is the bard. Especially if you have everthing triggered. Just have your computer beep whenever the string "*group*sing*" comes by when the leader instructs you to sing a new song and then all you have to do is type in a command. Hell, you could prolly even trigger song requests too!
*giggle*
Noke / Nokie Quickfingers!
Dunno if I agree with the sentiment of a solo class. Part of me does, part doesn't.
The part that does is to adhere to the masses, and make everyone happy, etc. This is the warm and happy fuzzy part.
The part that doesn't points out that the mud has always stressed groups, and has never really made pains to conceal this fact. This part also points out there are other muds. This is the cynical bastard part.
Need a happy medium between the two I think.
However, I do see the point. I'm not really sure how I like the 'cog in the machine' aspect. That's a dead on description now. No classes can survive without others. Take dscales/stone for instance now(I use this because I play a chanter), they are almost totally useless to casters types, and have been thrust in this factor to accomodate tanks. It's great for them, I agree, but we mage/clerics can't tank anything when it switches to us. Invokers do mass damage, but can't take anything worth a dime or more.
In all, I'm reserving my opinions for when all the changes are done, but I agree some of them are going far overboard in the strive for 'balance'. But any game does tis and has it's flaws. I just think Sojourn has less than the rest.
On the other points:
I agree group leaders need to communicate with group more to explain what is going on, however they are usually so spammed and aggravated this doesn't become an option with most, as they are prone to jsut snapping at the question askers.
Routine? Hell yes, it's a mud. Some zones aren't though, and they are a treat.
Spam? Yup, I agree, but I learned to filter most of it out. Not an option for everyone.
Control? Well.. Lead more groups, I guess. Not really sure I have an opinion or answer for this one.
Zones with CR etc.. Ugh I agree. 6 hour zones are lame. I have a life now, and a job, and these just aren't viable nowadays.
Group leader screwing up... That's the name of the game. It goes true for any group, but I think the mud as a whole needs more patience for learning group leaders. Otherwise we will have none in the coming months or when the experienced ones leave.
------------------
Mal
PS - As always, opinions contained are my own, and are not intended to offend or upset anyone, but are merely outspoken thoughts from myself. If you have issues with them, bring em up, but keep flaming to emails.
The part that does is to adhere to the masses, and make everyone happy, etc. This is the warm and happy fuzzy part.
The part that doesn't points out that the mud has always stressed groups, and has never really made pains to conceal this fact. This part also points out there are other muds. This is the cynical bastard part.
Need a happy medium between the two I think.
However, I do see the point. I'm not really sure how I like the 'cog in the machine' aspect. That's a dead on description now. No classes can survive without others. Take dscales/stone for instance now(I use this because I play a chanter), they are almost totally useless to casters types, and have been thrust in this factor to accomodate tanks. It's great for them, I agree, but we mage/clerics can't tank anything when it switches to us. Invokers do mass damage, but can't take anything worth a dime or more.
In all, I'm reserving my opinions for when all the changes are done, but I agree some of them are going far overboard in the strive for 'balance'. But any game does tis and has it's flaws. I just think Sojourn has less than the rest.
On the other points:
I agree group leaders need to communicate with group more to explain what is going on, however they are usually so spammed and aggravated this doesn't become an option with most, as they are prone to jsut snapping at the question askers.
Routine? Hell yes, it's a mud. Some zones aren't though, and they are a treat.
Spam? Yup, I agree, but I learned to filter most of it out. Not an option for everyone.
Control? Well.. Lead more groups, I guess. Not really sure I have an opinion or answer for this one.
Zones with CR etc.. Ugh I agree. 6 hour zones are lame. I have a life now, and a job, and these just aren't viable nowadays.
Group leader screwing up... That's the name of the game. It goes true for any group, but I think the mud as a whole needs more patience for learning group leaders. Otherwise we will have none in the coming months or when the experienced ones leave.
------------------
Mal
PS - As always, opinions contained are my own, and are not intended to offend or upset anyone, but are merely outspoken thoughts from myself. If you have issues with them, bring em up, but keep flaming to emails.
What if Necromacers from 1-50 were a stronger solo class then they are currently planned to be (pets closer to what they were like before). The Lich would have weaker pets in exchange for their group-friendly damage spells, etc. Necros could thus fill the need for both types of ppl (groupers and solo artists).
What would actually happen, of course, is that the groupers would complain (a la druids) that they were useless in a group until Lichdom, and the solo artists would complain that they couldnt acheive the ultimate level of their class without giving up soloing abilities. Nobody would be happy, instead of at least one side being happy as it is now. Trying to please everyone usually results in satisfying no-one. ... How i do ramble ...
Mp
What would actually happen, of course, is that the groupers would complain (a la druids) that they were useless in a group until Lichdom, and the solo artists would complain that they couldnt acheive the ultimate level of their class without giving up soloing abilities. Nobody would be happy, instead of at least one side being happy as it is now. Trying to please everyone usually results in satisfying no-one. ... How i do ramble ...
Mp
One solution is to create a class that's powerful solo but hard coded from grouping.
In which case, you would then get someone who can solo vault complaining because they can never do jot because they can't group.
If a class is made powerful enough to do things by himself, it's almost always way too powerful when put in a group situation. So, most muds shy away from solo-class mentality.
- Ragorn
In which case, you would then get someone who can solo vault complaining because they can never do jot because they can't group.
If a class is made powerful enough to do things by himself, it's almost always way too powerful when put in a group situation. So, most muds shy away from solo-class mentality.
- Ragorn
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
If a class is made powerful enough to do things by himself, it's almost always way too powerful when put in a group situation. So, most muds shy away from solo-class mentality.
- Ragorn</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have played other MUDs (in between Sojourns) and i have found that due to fact that Sojounr is group based, on general people have to learn to work together. On MUDs where many classes are powerful enough to solo you find alot of power hungery players who really dont know jack.
Also Sojourn doesnt make it easy to level, it presents one of the best challanges a MUD has to offer.
All in all, Sojourn is the breedign grounds for some of the most skillful MUDer i have ever seen!
LONG LIVE SOJOURN!
If a class is made powerful enough to do things by himself, it's almost always way too powerful when put in a group situation. So, most muds shy away from solo-class mentality.
- Ragorn</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have played other MUDs (in between Sojourns) and i have found that due to fact that Sojounr is group based, on general people have to learn to work together. On MUDs where many classes are powerful enough to solo you find alot of power hungery players who really dont know jack.
Also Sojourn doesnt make it easy to level, it presents one of the best challanges a MUD has to offer.
All in all, Sojourn is the breedign grounds for some of the most skillful MUDer i have ever seen!
LONG LIVE SOJOURN!
Corth, guess you are right, players may be way more painful that pets. (and pain increases exponentially with number of players in your group)
I guess that the best group leaders would need to strictly discipline other players. Maybe is not fun for leaders but definitively more involving (which means more fun to me).
I really dislike the 'cog in the machine' aspect of the mud, but seems this is where the mud is going. That was exactly my point. I dont like to be the 'cogs' (follower) I would rather be the machine (group leader).
It was nice to be the machine without the constraints of forming groups with other players. For me now, this aspect is gone. To have fun you need to group AND be the leader. I may suspect that this is even more fun that the 'one man group' that necromancers were, but it is definitely more difficult to achieve (finding the time, the right players, make everybody happy it is exausting)
Group and solos.. I believe that the mud can accomodate the two aspects. There were, are and will be a lot of areas where even the most powerful solo class can even think of going without sure death.
Now, I believe that people are pissed with solo classes because they compete with their group in experience places (tower ic) and equip from rares (GC, IC, Scornubel, ZK and so on).
But, believe me, looking for rares is not so much fun, especially when they are extremely rare. and to be able to find it is the right reward after all. Furthermore, a lot of times, without solo classes those rares would not have been found and killed or reported to groups able to kill them. In this way solo classes really improve the interaction in the mud.
There are other ways of inteacting with people than grouping togheter (Yayaril).
I never complained about not being accepted in groups. If you choose to be a necromancer you should know what you were going to face (and many indeed were playing another class as well).
I would rather see a solo class more towards exploration capabilities than crushing power. It would be nice to have a class that, if played with skill, would be able to EXPLORE a lot of zones without killing the mobs. (I hope in illusionists...)
What I see in the future is a mud where several groups wander around mechanically every boot or so. Zones roamed by a group and then deserted until the next boot. People waiting and whining for groups to be formed and trying to get into the best groups. Mages casting 'locate object' to hope to find the rare.
This is not mud interaction, it is group interaction. All the interaction between players is done within the group and very little if any is dedicated to interact with other groups or the mud in general. Groups will compete more than interact.
Also, I guess this is going to create a 'de facto' "guild" status where people group with the same group of players all the time.
You may like this, I don't particularly like it.
I totally agree with Ragorn, but necromancers were able to kill a lot solo, but in groups they didnt have much power.
I believe that soloing requires and therefore builds a lot of skills (Pushing your limits in killing that mob). Of course, grouping is also important but it build a quite different set of skills. The problem of grouping is that it (can) creates high level clueless players.
I guess that the best group leaders would need to strictly discipline other players. Maybe is not fun for leaders but definitively more involving (which means more fun to me).
I really dislike the 'cog in the machine' aspect of the mud, but seems this is where the mud is going. That was exactly my point. I dont like to be the 'cogs' (follower) I would rather be the machine (group leader).
It was nice to be the machine without the constraints of forming groups with other players. For me now, this aspect is gone. To have fun you need to group AND be the leader. I may suspect that this is even more fun that the 'one man group' that necromancers were, but it is definitely more difficult to achieve (finding the time, the right players, make everybody happy it is exausting)
Group and solos.. I believe that the mud can accomodate the two aspects. There were, are and will be a lot of areas where even the most powerful solo class can even think of going without sure death.
Now, I believe that people are pissed with solo classes because they compete with their group in experience places (tower ic) and equip from rares (GC, IC, Scornubel, ZK and so on).
But, believe me, looking for rares is not so much fun, especially when they are extremely rare. and to be able to find it is the right reward after all. Furthermore, a lot of times, without solo classes those rares would not have been found and killed or reported to groups able to kill them. In this way solo classes really improve the interaction in the mud.
There are other ways of inteacting with people than grouping togheter (Yayaril).
I never complained about not being accepted in groups. If you choose to be a necromancer you should know what you were going to face (and many indeed were playing another class as well).
I would rather see a solo class more towards exploration capabilities than crushing power. It would be nice to have a class that, if played with skill, would be able to EXPLORE a lot of zones without killing the mobs. (I hope in illusionists...)
What I see in the future is a mud where several groups wander around mechanically every boot or so. Zones roamed by a group and then deserted until the next boot. People waiting and whining for groups to be formed and trying to get into the best groups. Mages casting 'locate object' to hope to find the rare.
This is not mud interaction, it is group interaction. All the interaction between players is done within the group and very little if any is dedicated to interact with other groups or the mud in general. Groups will compete more than interact.
Also, I guess this is going to create a 'de facto' "guild" status where people group with the same group of players all the time.
You may like this, I don't particularly like it.
I totally agree with Ragorn, but necromancers were able to kill a lot solo, but in groups they didnt have much power.
I believe that soloing requires and therefore builds a lot of skills (Pushing your limits in killing that mob). Of course, grouping is also important but it build a quite different set of skills. The problem of grouping is that it (can) creates high level clueless players.
Leading sucks at times... people whine, you have to deal with 12 ppl groups, people who don't pay attention, CR's, etc, etc.
If you don't want to just 'follow', try being a lieutenant. That way you get to order the people of your class around, and when they ask irritating questions - just refer them to the group leader! Half the glory, yet no hassle!
If you don't want to just 'follow', try being a lieutenant. That way you get to order the people of your class around, and when they ask irritating questions - just refer them to the group leader! Half the glory, yet no hassle!
I too am really gonna miss the ability to do stuff solo. As a conj with a pet, it was nice because I could hunt rares, and solo a select few high level mobs with some regularity. Conjurers have never been good nukers, and our pets don't hit very hard, so it always made it tough to do things solo. But thats where I took most of my pleasure from the mud, when I was able to do something that was pretty tough. Heck ask my wife. I would often spend a couple of hours just running in and trying to feeblemind a mage mob, just to see if I could kill it. There were a lot of times that I died, and many more times where I would just have to give up because it was too impossible for me to do solo.
But trying was most of the fun, and I would only zone when I wanted to get some eq, or I was sick of being alone. I am going to miss wandering Faerun in search of stuff I could tackle alone. Yes its still an option, but with pet changes etc. its next to impossible, while before it was just extremely challenging.
After seeing the necro changes, I had originally thought about playing one, but they are a shell of their former selves. I haven't seen conjurer changes, but I know that they are going to be affected like the necros were. It looks like the only classes left who might be able to solo things are shaman (don't know how their pets are), druids (maybe), and enchanters (if you know what you are doing.) Looks like I will have to choose from one of these three, or just fall in line with the masses and be a good grouper.
Lyt/Vaaz
[This message has been edited by Lyt (edited 04-16-2001).]
But trying was most of the fun, and I would only zone when I wanted to get some eq, or I was sick of being alone. I am going to miss wandering Faerun in search of stuff I could tackle alone. Yes its still an option, but with pet changes etc. its next to impossible, while before it was just extremely challenging.
After seeing the necro changes, I had originally thought about playing one, but they are a shell of their former selves. I haven't seen conjurer changes, but I know that they are going to be affected like the necros were. It looks like the only classes left who might be able to solo things are shaman (don't know how their pets are), druids (maybe), and enchanters (if you know what you are doing.) Looks like I will have to choose from one of these three, or just fall in line with the masses and be a good grouper.
Lyt/Vaaz
[This message has been edited by Lyt (edited 04-16-2001).]
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Sekon/Fanil
- Sojourner
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Westminster, SC , USA
I'm already missing the soloability of warriors. Use to be when I couldn't get a group I could at least do money runs in IC and HP. Alas, no more. Tried it with my lvl 44 test warrior. I got 2 privates on me in IC and died.
Wonder why they can't just set damage higher when your not grouped and lower when ya are? This would solve the power balance problem.
Wonder why they can't just set damage higher when your not grouped and lower when ya are? This would solve the power balance problem.
-
Nekler BlazingWolf
- Sojourner
- Posts: 176
- Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 6:01 am
- Contact:
In reply to the shaman spirits.. so far the largest I have gotten is 342 hps at lvl 43.
I'm not sure if the spirits have been changed yet, but I sure hope they don't drop them too low.. otherwise there is no purpose in even having them with only 3 summon attempts.
I know I'll miss the ability to solo some things not having elementals any longer, but all I used them for before was an extra hitter, and as cannon fodder to get buy an aggro mob while exploring someplace.
I'm not sure if the spirits have been changed yet, but I sure hope they don't drop them too low.. otherwise there is no purpose in even having them with only 3 summon attempts.
I know I'll miss the ability to solo some things not having elementals any longer, but all I used them for before was an extra hitter, and as cannon fodder to get buy an aggro mob while exploring someplace.
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Sekon/Fanil
- Sojourner
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Westminster, SC , USA
Interesting topic, and I've been wondering about it myself a lot lately. My first char was Arenor, way back in Soj1. I soloed him mostly, because my work made me go on and off line constantly, so I was never dependable in groups. I got him to level 47 by soloing in HP. Why? Because I just love to play the mud. I love judging my character against opponents, trying to figure out how many mobs I can take on at once, looking for the excitement of taking/dealing unexpected crits, cutting it close to the edge and using layhands at the last moment because otherwise you won't be able to kill all 3 trackers on you and the walk from WD is far. Not that I disliked groups, and I did whenever I could, but circumstances didn't always favour it. Did I feel like I was wasting my time "soloing in a multiplayer game"? No. Despite all the social aspects of this game, in the end it is a fun video game, and I enjoy that aspect of it _as_well_ as the social part.
In sojourn 2, I had the chance to see Lyt and espcially Liegashia show me what a true solo class was. They worked hard on their chars, understood the game, and watching them solo eq mobs in BG, HP, and the surrounding area was like watching a brilliant artist at work. Some people may say good riddance to such displays, but I for one will miss them. There is just something awesome about watching a necro and his horde of undead take out the captain and his guards on the pirate ship in HP that just isn't there when you spam through a battle with 16 people and 4 invokers in Jot.
As for Soj3, so far with my warrior up to level 22 I am finding it easier by far to solo to gain xp than to group. If this continues to be the case, I don't see warriors or palis having any more difficult a time soloing now than they had before. I hope that conjies and necros won't be "made more group friendly" to the point that they can't do anything alone anymore, or I will definitely be missing out on one of my favourite spectator sports!
On the same topic, I seem to remember that Xaril used to be able to solo a ludicrous number of things after he hit 47 (Xaril being the afore-mentioned enchanter and all around cool guy), which he did mostly through D-scale, various mind-warping spells, and vamp touch. Did they removed vamp touch from enchanters now, or is my mind going and they never had it in the first place?
Cheers,
Arenor/Aruk/Terau
In sojourn 2, I had the chance to see Lyt and espcially Liegashia show me what a true solo class was. They worked hard on their chars, understood the game, and watching them solo eq mobs in BG, HP, and the surrounding area was like watching a brilliant artist at work. Some people may say good riddance to such displays, but I for one will miss them. There is just something awesome about watching a necro and his horde of undead take out the captain and his guards on the pirate ship in HP that just isn't there when you spam through a battle with 16 people and 4 invokers in Jot.
As for Soj3, so far with my warrior up to level 22 I am finding it easier by far to solo to gain xp than to group. If this continues to be the case, I don't see warriors or palis having any more difficult a time soloing now than they had before. I hope that conjies and necros won't be "made more group friendly" to the point that they can't do anything alone anymore, or I will definitely be missing out on one of my favourite spectator sports!
On the same topic, I seem to remember that Xaril used to be able to solo a ludicrous number of things after he hit 47 (Xaril being the afore-mentioned enchanter and all around cool guy), which he did mostly through D-scale, various mind-warping spells, and vamp touch. Did they removed vamp touch from enchanters now, or is my mind going and they never had it in the first place?
Cheers,
Arenor/Aruk/Terau
So far, I've solo'd from level 16 to level 32 as a necromancer. As long as we aren't downgraded too much, I can't see it being much harder during beta. Kia even said we were going to be getting somewhat of an upgrade.
I don't mind grouping at all, it's actually fun and I'll take the opportunity to do it when I can. Soloing is far easier, however, since I play so much, and good groups are hard to find.
You'll still have the option of soloing without stone, but you won't be killing the big eq mobs. You can still get some exp.
-Todrael
I don't mind grouping at all, it's actually fun and I'll take the opportunity to do it when I can. Soloing is far easier, however, since I play so much, and good groups are hard to find.
You'll still have the option of soloing without stone, but you won't be killing the big eq mobs. You can still get some exp.
-Todrael
It was always a rush to do stuff solo: If You like that, head into the Undermountain. That zone was probably the most amazing place to explore on the mud.
Equipment? Ask Ilshadrial. Well into the wipe I played I took a group in there and got an artifact and other wild weapons.
More importantly, there's a lot of quests/confusion there that's never been solved. Granted a lot if it in UM2 is unfinished, but if enough people push it will be.
Group for levels and ability, but for solo play, head into the Undermountain.
Equipment? Ask Ilshadrial. Well into the wipe I played I took a group in there and got an artifact and other wild weapons.
More importantly, there's a lot of quests/confusion there that's never been solved. Granted a lot if it in UM2 is unfinished, but if enough people push it will be.
Group for levels and ability, but for solo play, head into the Undermountain.
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