Ok, here's my two cents.
I understand that on Soj2, many things might have been different, but in helping to test during the two alpha phases, and working with some on the balancing of melee classes, the paradigm really has shifted a bit.
That's not to say that a barb or dorf warrior couldn't be the best in the game, but that in fact most of the races have something going for them, under the current structure.
I've been playing (gack) a halfling warrior during alpha, mostly to playtest to see how they stand up to the other races. I *can* tell you that pound-for-pound they are the equal of a barbarian tank at the same level with the same equipment, even though the barb I am comparing myself to had quite a few more hit points.
Here's how I see the strengths of the different races (off the top of my head):
Barbarian Nice damage, good hit points, able to bash fairly large targets (particularly with enlarge). Agi and Dex not particularly their strong suit.
Dwarf Nice damage, good hit points, able to bash fairly *small* targets (with shrink especially). Agi and Dex again, not particularly strong.
Ogre Massive damage, great hit points (apparently going to get better soon) and can bash very large targets in the right circumstances. Also generally unbashable by human-sized opponents (good for warrs, very bad for shamans). Agi and Dex significantly lower than most.
Halfling Lower damage/hit, partially made up for by dex attack bonus, paladin-like hitpoints (significantly lower than most). Unbashable by *some* humanoid mobs, though not consistently. Can bash extremely small mobs, but not human or larger (well, human with enlarge i'm sure, but that's about it). Agi is above average, Dex is phenomenal. (Contrary to the views of some, shieldblock is not affected by dex... parry is... and yes, parry being controlled by dex is *the* most logical... it's a fencing skill, mostly). Lack of bashing is the largest weakpoint for them, but they aren't nearly as bad as some might believe. I personally think they have the best tanking skills in the game.
Grey Elf Lowish damage, partially made up for by dex attack thing, weak hit points (even weaker than halflings), nice agility and dex. Basically human-sized for bashing purposes (think they're slightly taller). Sneak is certainly nice, but not critical for a warrior. I do assume they will learn skills faster than virtually any other race, but this won't mean much once yer 50 for awhile.
I'm not that familiar with the other evil races. Trolls, though popular, are not really better than ogres, as there are several drawbacks to the race which have been commented on quite a bit (*fire*).
It is true, in Soj2 the hit points were a big deal. Testing that I've seen so far seems to indicate that wearing all hp gear, or even alot of it, and sacrificing AC, will get you dead faster than any other single action with the new combat system. That's as it should be, imo.
Now, the hp thing is going to come into play much more when taking spell damage. Here is where races such as the halfling and elf are going to suffer quite a bit.
I'm sure there will be others who disagree with parts or all of what I've said, but I feel I should post what I've found here. Since I'm going to play a halfling warrior when beta starts, seems only fair to give people an opportunity to mull these things over.
Warriors, tanking, race choices, etc...
What have the realms come to? Blimplepopsalotofpimples the most fearsome and best warrior in the realms? Dwarves and barbarians flee from his path in fear, for he is the uberwarrior!
How serious is a 4" halfling tanking a 20" frost giant?
Perhaps there needs to be a 'damage reduction' thing coded, where the damage the mob deals to a player is multiplied by a factor dependant on your size. I mean, if said frost giant finally hits that little gnat halfling running circles around his feet, he should go squish in one hit. A barb might not be running circles around the giant, but when he gets hit he takes less damage due to his race, strength, constitution, weight and size. Humans would have a factor 1, taking normal damage, while dorfs, trolls, ogres, barbs have a factor less than 1. Greys, halflings, gnomes, drow, etc would have a factor higher than 1.
Just some thoughts.
How serious is a 4" halfling tanking a 20" frost giant?
Perhaps there needs to be a 'damage reduction' thing coded, where the damage the mob deals to a player is multiplied by a factor dependant on your size. I mean, if said frost giant finally hits that little gnat halfling running circles around his feet, he should go squish in one hit. A barb might not be running circles around the giant, but when he gets hit he takes less damage due to his race, strength, constitution, weight and size. Humans would have a factor 1, taking normal damage, while dorfs, trolls, ogres, barbs have a factor less than 1. Greys, halflings, gnomes, drow, etc would have a factor higher than 1.
Just some thoughts.
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Galok Icewolf
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Take the following scenario:
halfling warrior:
-560hp(?) natural
-can't be bashed by most mobs, !bash I guess with reduce
-can't bash most mobs, enlarge or maybe even some deformity bands might/would solve this problem
-extra attack(s) because of dex
-great ac bonus
-10hit/?dam naked
-great dodge, parry, shieldblock etc bonus (assuming the code checks the dex stat for these).
-2% chance to crit
barb/dwarf warrior
-700hp natural
-can be bashed by most all mobs, even with reduce or enlarge
-can bash almost all mobs
-no extra attacks
-average ac bonus
-6/6 naked
-normal dodge, parry, shieldblock etc.
-5% chance to crit
Throw 2 hitpoint rings on the halfling, and he has the same hps as the dwarf and barbarian. He might lose 2 hit and 4 dam because of this, but the extra attacks he gets will throw in (weapon dice roll+ 40 damage) each, making him MUCH more powerful. The 3% extra chance for a barb/dorf to crit only happens, right, 3% of the time, so an extra attack is much more powerful. In addition, he has lower AC, parries/dodges much better and he's practically !bash. The only drawback would be that he can't bash many mobs until there are sorcs with enlarge, and he can't wield some 2h weapons unless he wears a maxstr bracelet or necklace.
See where I'm getting at? I don't want to hear that I'm whining, because I once again posted something and tried to back it up instead of just saying something. I realize not being able to bash most mobs sucks, but once sorcs get enlarge, this will be much less of a problem. In my view, there is something wrong with tiny vulnerable races being better warriors than bigger ones. There is nothing wrong with making them more wanted to play, giving them a little something extra, but it would seem that they are much better now. I haven't seen how level 50 barbs and halflings match up in combat but the comparison above is my assumption.
If I am wrong, please correct me. Explain why they aren't better, I tried explaining in a civilized sense why they are. Yes, this might be based upon some assumptions, so if you know the facts please state them.
Cherzra.
[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 04-13-2001).]
halfling warrior:
-560hp(?) natural
-can't be bashed by most mobs, !bash I guess with reduce
-can't bash most mobs, enlarge or maybe even some deformity bands might/would solve this problem
-extra attack(s) because of dex
-great ac bonus
-10hit/?dam naked
-great dodge, parry, shieldblock etc bonus (assuming the code checks the dex stat for these).
-2% chance to crit
barb/dwarf warrior
-700hp natural
-can be bashed by most all mobs, even with reduce or enlarge
-can bash almost all mobs
-no extra attacks
-average ac bonus
-6/6 naked
-normal dodge, parry, shieldblock etc.
-5% chance to crit
Throw 2 hitpoint rings on the halfling, and he has the same hps as the dwarf and barbarian. He might lose 2 hit and 4 dam because of this, but the extra attacks he gets will throw in (weapon dice roll+ 40 damage) each, making him MUCH more powerful. The 3% extra chance for a barb/dorf to crit only happens, right, 3% of the time, so an extra attack is much more powerful. In addition, he has lower AC, parries/dodges much better and he's practically !bash. The only drawback would be that he can't bash many mobs until there are sorcs with enlarge, and he can't wield some 2h weapons unless he wears a maxstr bracelet or necklace.
See where I'm getting at? I don't want to hear that I'm whining, because I once again posted something and tried to back it up instead of just saying something. I realize not being able to bash most mobs sucks, but once sorcs get enlarge, this will be much less of a problem. In my view, there is something wrong with tiny vulnerable races being better warriors than bigger ones. There is nothing wrong with making them more wanted to play, giving them a little something extra, but it would seem that they are much better now. I haven't seen how level 50 barbs and halflings match up in combat but the comparison above is my assumption.
If I am wrong, please correct me. Explain why they aren't better, I tried explaining in a civilized sense why they are. Yes, this might be based upon some assumptions, so if you know the facts please state them.
Cherzra.
[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 04-13-2001).]
Well said, Cherzra. It really doesn't make sense and seems to penalize the 'traditional' warrior races (dwarf/barb) to benefit the 'marginal' goodie warrior races (gnome/halfling/grey elf). Was the mud lacking somehow from a dearth of gnome warriors before? I don't understand the apparent emphasis on 'equalizing' the race/class combos in the case of warriors.
I think your suggestion earlier in the post might balance this logically. You suggested a 'damage reduction' thingy for the bigger races. Instead, how about an increased vulnerability to being critically hit for the smaller races? In other words, halfling warriors would parry, etc. better than barb warriors but when they get hit they would have a 10% greater chance of being critically hit than a barb or dwarf.
What do you think?
I think your suggestion earlier in the post might balance this logically. You suggested a 'damage reduction' thingy for the bigger races. Instead, how about an increased vulnerability to being critically hit for the smaller races? In other words, halfling warriors would parry, etc. better than barb warriors but when they get hit they would have a 10% greater chance of being critically hit than a barb or dwarf.
What do you think?
Cherzra there are a few key details you seem to be missing:
1) With pets being phazed out as tanks..hps, hps, hps are going to be huge for tanks.
2) What stops the barb/dwarf from wearing hp rings and ending up with well over 1k hps (with vit)?
3) Warriors thac0 is naturally low, they never needed much hit, barbs/dwarves get more damage naturally. But...warriors aren't supposed to be the prime melee damagers anymore anyway, I believe you will see a lot more warriors with tons of hp/ss then maxxed out on damage gear like last time. hit/dam on a tank is going to be less important, durability more so.
4) New mob_ai means more tricky mobs, more spells, personally I want my prime tank having as many hps as possible
5) Shieldblock still has an element of str no? if not it probably should to help balance those skills out for tanking.
That being said I think halfling warriors will be fun, and have there place, but I have a very hard time seeing the world over-run with halfling warriors, barbs/dwarves will still be the common race-class combo.
Belle
1) With pets being phazed out as tanks..hps, hps, hps are going to be huge for tanks.
2) What stops the barb/dwarf from wearing hp rings and ending up with well over 1k hps (with vit)?
3) Warriors thac0 is naturally low, they never needed much hit, barbs/dwarves get more damage naturally. But...warriors aren't supposed to be the prime melee damagers anymore anyway, I believe you will see a lot more warriors with tons of hp/ss then maxxed out on damage gear like last time. hit/dam on a tank is going to be less important, durability more so.
4) New mob_ai means more tricky mobs, more spells, personally I want my prime tank having as many hps as possible
5) Shieldblock still has an element of str no? if not it probably should to help balance those skills out for tanking.
That being said I think halfling warriors will be fun, and have there place, but I have a very hard time seeing the world over-run with halfling warriors, barbs/dwarves will still be the common race-class combo.
Belle
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Galok Icewolf
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One the Halfling I was with, with perfect con, had 500 hps at level 46, with a amy. I guess he could get 560.. somehow..
Parry and Shieldblock are still Strength skills, and halflings get -str. They are 10/4 so you know. And as Ive said before you dont need hitroll that much at high levels, damage is more important.
Cherzra, if you dont agree with not needing as much +hit at high levels, please say so.
Parry and Shieldblock are still Strength skills, and halflings get -str. They are 10/4 so you know. And as Ive said before you dont need hitroll that much at high levels, damage is more important.
Cherzra, if you dont agree with not needing as much +hit at high levels, please say so.
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Galok Icewolf
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I don't mean to double post, but cherzra asked me to move here from discussion in another forum.
Damage roll, has always been harder to accumulate. When I was playing my troll, I never said I wish I had more hitroll *dang!*.
Damage eq, isnt as previlant, Plus skill makes up (1h slashing, level, offense) for much of the un-needed hitroll.
What I mean by bigger hits, or more hits.
More attacks for warriors isnt always better when you loose on damroll each attack. Ac absorbs a limited amount of damage, so it ends up better doing larger single shot attacks then multiple small strikes.
P.s. My anti has 24/47, and I can't get more damroll or I would. (as a human)
Damage roll, has always been harder to accumulate. When I was playing my troll, I never said I wish I had more hitroll *dang!*.
Damage eq, isnt as previlant, Plus skill makes up (1h slashing, level, offense) for much of the un-needed hitroll.
What I mean by bigger hits, or more hits.
More attacks for warriors isnt always better when you loose on damroll each attack. Ac absorbs a limited amount of damage, so it ends up better doing larger single shot attacks then multiple small strikes.
P.s. My anti has 24/47, and I can't get more damroll or I would. (as a human)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galok Icewolf:
<B>I don't mean to double post, but cherzra asked me to move here from discussion in another forum.
Damage roll, has always been harder to accumulate. When I was playing my troll, I never said I wish I had more hitroll *dang!*.
Damage eq, isnt as previlant, Plus skill makes up (1h slashing, level, offense) for much of the un-needed hitroll.
What I mean by bigger hits, or more hits.
More attacks for warriors isnt always better when you loose on damroll each attack. Ac absorbs a limited amount of damage, so it ends up better doing larger single shot attacks then multiple small strikes.
P.s. My anti has 24/47, and I can't get more damroll or I would. (as a human)</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But think about it. With a halfling's dex bonus you'd have around 30/47 wit the same eq. So now you could trade in some of those +hit slots and add +dam. Ending up with 24/53 if you could find the right eq.
Sarvis
<B>I don't mean to double post, but cherzra asked me to move here from discussion in another forum.
Damage roll, has always been harder to accumulate. When I was playing my troll, I never said I wish I had more hitroll *dang!*.
Damage eq, isnt as previlant, Plus skill makes up (1h slashing, level, offense) for much of the un-needed hitroll.
What I mean by bigger hits, or more hits.
More attacks for warriors isnt always better when you loose on damroll each attack. Ac absorbs a limited amount of damage, so it ends up better doing larger single shot attacks then multiple small strikes.
P.s. My anti has 24/47, and I can't get more damroll or I would. (as a human)</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But think about it. With a halfling's dex bonus you'd have around 30/47 wit the same eq. So now you could trade in some of those +hit slots and add +dam. Ending up with 24/53 if you could find the right eq.
Sarvis
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Galok Icewolf
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On the damage thing, if you stack a barb with the best eq in the game, he might be 24/49. The halfling will be 30/44. Not a difference worth mentioning, since 5 dam will make almost no difference... now the extra attack however, say they both wield a 4d4 weapon, will throw in (2*2 1/2) + 40 = 45 damage... see how that compares to the 5 damage? Even if the halfling removes 2 rings and the about body slot in favor of hp eq, giving him 190 extra hp while costing him 5 hit and 4 dam, he will still dish out 41 damage per round more while being at practically the same hp as the bigger race.
Chezra, that extra attack halflings get due to higher dex doesn't come out quite that often. It's been a few days since I was grouped with a halfling warrior, but it was only something like once ever 5 or 6 rounds or so. That extra 5 dam that a beefier warrior would get would balance out the damage done. I'll have to get back on and check soon to verify the numbers, but it's as significant as you might think (then again, the particular halfling I'm grouped with might not have that high of a dex score with only mighty in it).
Treladian, on halfings not getting that extra attack often, my level 6 halfling warrior seems to get it about 40% of the time with perfect dex. If you compare that to a measly 3% extra chance to crit, wonder who comes out ahead...
If anything I think the second attack needs to happen less often as it gives a low level halfling a HUGE advantage over a barb, dwarf etc.
Karikhan my halfling is currently wielding a greatsword, I laugh every time i picture that in my head 3 foot tall halfling wielding 6 foot sword <G>
Elarin
If anything I think the second attack needs to happen less often as it gives a low level halfling a HUGE advantage over a barb, dwarf etc.
Karikhan my halfling is currently wielding a greatsword, I laugh every time i picture that in my head 3 foot tall halfling wielding 6 foot sword <G>
Elarin
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Galok Icewolf
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3% chance more to crit may not seem like alot, but it ended up my barb warrior was critting every few rounds, at least once every 4 rounds it seemed like. The crits add up.. especially since weapons like gythka work best offa crits.
Plus AC absorbs damage.. so in 3 hits more damage is absorbed rather then in 2 hits that are larger.
Plus AC absorbs damage.. so in 3 hits more damage is absorbed rather then in 2 hits that are larger.
Elarin, during the trip back home from the campus, I realized that I would only be seeing the second attacks that actually connected. I'm curious as to how the damage adds up at high levels due to the AC absorption factor though. The rate of extra attacks from halflings does seem pretty excessive though since on my elf thief I only get an extra attack maybe 10% of the time and I don't think it checks class when determining how many extras you get.
"Plus AC absorbs damage.. so in 3 hits more damage is absorbed rather then in 2 hits that are larger. "
Hmm, AC absorption? I haven't heard of this before... how does it work? I thought AC just made you avoid hits? How would the small difference between 44 damroll and 49 damroll make a big difference?
Hmm, AC absorption? I haven't heard of this before... how does it work? I thought AC just made you avoid hits? How would the small difference between 44 damroll and 49 damroll make a big difference?
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Galok Icewolf
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Explain to me what the big deal with natural hit/dam that I dont know.
Lets say Halfling get 10/5 and ogre get 5/10 different in 5 damage. So what the big deal? at High level eq balance the hit and dam out. Example is Decorate eyepatch 3 hitroll, Blackeyepatch 1hit 2 dam. you were eq base on your character need. So I dont see the point of dicussing hit and dam unless I'm missing out on some secret formula based on natural hit and dam.
2) As for the natural hp goes, it stupid to compare between OGRE and HALFLING or any other races. it very simple to test everyone of your arguements, just have a god create 2 characters and test it out in the arena. As for my personal opinion on halfling, ask a troll or ogre to kill Wealos.
Blung <--- Got his ass kick by Wealos a few times in the arena.
My dad can beat the crap out of your dad!
To the Arena now! Duel to the death!
My penny worth.
[This message has been edited by Blung (edited 04-14-2001).]
Lets say Halfling get 10/5 and ogre get 5/10 different in 5 damage. So what the big deal? at High level eq balance the hit and dam out. Example is Decorate eyepatch 3 hitroll, Blackeyepatch 1hit 2 dam. you were eq base on your character need. So I dont see the point of dicussing hit and dam unless I'm missing out on some secret formula based on natural hit and dam.
2) As for the natural hp goes, it stupid to compare between OGRE and HALFLING or any other races. it very simple to test everyone of your arguements, just have a god create 2 characters and test it out in the arena. As for my personal opinion on halfling, ask a troll or ogre to kill Wealos.
Blung <--- Got his ass kick by Wealos a few times in the arena.
My dad can beat the crap out of your dad!
To the Arena now! Duel to the death!
My penny worth.
[This message has been edited by Blung (edited 04-14-2001).]
Would you create a human ranger over a Halfling ranger? Here is another example Would Craig Biggio ever going to hit 50 hr in a single season versus Mark McGwire? That what your statment is asking, compare Apples and Oranges.
Pick the best race that fit the class you want. Simple as that.
I'm pretty sure if evil have more variety classes to choice from, you would not see this stupid argument.
Pick the best race that fit the class you want. Simple as that.
I'm pretty sure if evil have more variety classes to choice from, you would not see this stupid argument.
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Galok Icewolf
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Was this waelos with spanky gear? (e.g. the best in the game?) or waelos with equivalent level based gear compared to you blung?
I suppose on a level, what blung says is pretty true, There are many types of eq, and they tend to equalize the classes. Don't get me wrong, I think halflings/elves were given a great bonus and are damn near on par with dwarfs and such. I am just saying that barbs/dwarves are still slightly better, and for good reason, they are more associated with the warrior class.
Halflings and elves are more associated with rogues and rangers respectively. I think that a halfling rogue, while not being able to out-tank a warrior is going to far out damage him, because of dual wield/haste.. and because of dex bonus. Im gonna laugh hard when I see a halfling rogue get like 6 or 7 attacks in a round. (As in a good thing, halflings should be striking alot).
P.s. AC absorbs damage, and gives a mob a chance to miss. Nothing like stone skin, but if say a mob did 100 damage to you, 10-15 (estimate) might be absorbed by having -100, while at the same time 5 might be absorbed for having -50. This is extra on top of the fact that AC makes it harder for a mob to hit.
I suppose on a level, what blung says is pretty true, There are many types of eq, and they tend to equalize the classes. Don't get me wrong, I think halflings/elves were given a great bonus and are damn near on par with dwarfs and such. I am just saying that barbs/dwarves are still slightly better, and for good reason, they are more associated with the warrior class.
Halflings and elves are more associated with rogues and rangers respectively. I think that a halfling rogue, while not being able to out-tank a warrior is going to far out damage him, because of dual wield/haste.. and because of dex bonus. Im gonna laugh hard when I see a halfling rogue get like 6 or 7 attacks in a round. (As in a good thing, halflings should be striking alot).
P.s. AC absorbs damage, and gives a mob a chance to miss. Nothing like stone skin, but if say a mob did 100 damage to you, 10-15 (estimate) might be absorbed by having -100, while at the same time 5 might be absorbed for having -50. This is extra on top of the fact that AC makes it harder for a mob to hit.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tovel:
Is the extra attack and extra crits chance for races give to anyone of that race or for having very high dex & str? Could a human say get enough max dex to get that extra hit or enough max str to get the extra crits?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Human in the World of Sojourn are the average/basic of all races. There are no pluses in 1 category and minus in another. That why human can basicly create any of the classes they want. Ask the coder if they base the bonuses on human stats. Once again if you dumb enough to pick a human ranger over Halfling, so be it! Stupid is, stupid does.
Is the extra attack and extra crits chance for races give to anyone of that race or for having very high dex & str? Could a human say get enough max dex to get that extra hit or enough max str to get the extra crits?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Human in the World of Sojourn are the average/basic of all races. There are no pluses in 1 category and minus in another. That why human can basicly create any of the classes they want. Ask the coder if they base the bonuses on human stats. Once again if you dumb enough to pick a human ranger over Halfling, so be it! Stupid is, stupid does.
Tovel, nope, doesn't work that way. Basically it takes your real dex or strength (so a an ogre's 100 is a lot higher than a halfling's and a halfling's dex the opposite way) and if it's high enough, you have a chance for an extra attack or better critical chance based on it. Basically, the races with bad to slightly above average dex (ogres, trolls, both dwarf types, humans, squids, snakes, and halfelves) won't be getting an extra attack while elves (grey and drow) have some chance to get one and halflings get an insane amount of them. The same applies with the strenght based extra critical chance with the appropriate races substituted in.
Some random musings on this thread:
1. Don't worry about an army of midgets takin' over the mud. While halflings are a "viable" option for a tank now, they do have some severe drawbacks.
2. 10/3 is max for halfling, not 10/4 as previously stated. Verified this with perfect str on rollup.
3. Hit gear is going to be *more* important than it used to be, since you seem to need higher hit roll to consistently land your blows. How much more is a matter of debate. But also keep in mind there are some fairly high hitroll items out there (much higher than you can get in damroll).
4. Parry is the only defensive skill that dex affects, as far as I've been able to ascertain.
5. Extra attacks are 1 every 2 rounds at around 100 halfling dex. If you're seeing fewer, the little guy is missin'.
1. Don't worry about an army of midgets takin' over the mud. While halflings are a "viable" option for a tank now, they do have some severe drawbacks.
2. 10/3 is max for halfling, not 10/4 as previously stated. Verified this with perfect str on rollup.
3. Hit gear is going to be *more* important than it used to be, since you seem to need higher hit roll to consistently land your blows. How much more is a matter of debate. But also keep in mind there are some fairly high hitroll items out there (much higher than you can get in damroll).
4. Parry is the only defensive skill that dex affects, as far as I've been able to ascertain.
5. Extra attacks are 1 every 2 rounds at around 100 halfling dex. If you're seeing fewer, the little guy is missin'.
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Jasix Prowlingwolf
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I am currently testing both a Barbarian warrior (Jasix) who is 75 inches tall and 284 lbs and have had the pleasure in testing a Halfling warrior (54 inches short & 51 lbs) as well at high lvl in Jot and other zones.
First the Halfling
Having a +9 or +10 hitroll naked sure helps with eq choices if you're a hit/dam twink. 64ac naked is also great naked as well.
On a normal lvl 46 plus fight in one round I can riposte twice and hit 3 times with a 1 handed weapon and wearing a shield. That's 5 hits a round!! I haven't even tried dualing with him yet. Could i get 7 hits a round with riposte and being hasted? I refer to my little halfie warrior as the MINIMONK!
Yes he does not have the STR to hammer out a crit every other round but he still crits a fair bit, and his weapon procs like new years fireworks. I dont know how a crit works with actual damage but I would assume a good weapon proc would do more damage then a crit? I am probably wrong but I like the proc every other round more thne a crit.
Weight restrictions for weapons sure does suck, people whine that they haven't got a Twinklight of Destruction to play with, I find it more heartbreaking to have one that I cant even wield.
Hitpoints are about 200hp lower then a barbarian at lvl 50. But with a vit and a pair of Amy rings i still have about 750hp, more then enough for a zone going tank. (I would prefer to have 950hp but the kick ass dodge skill sure helps not need them near as much)
I think someone said riposte and shieldblock were STR based. I have to say my little guy shieldblocks more or less the same as the barbarian if not better.
I will be playing a halfling warrior at some stage of beta, they sure do kick ass! They cant bash but well they have many other bonuses. Halfies might kick some big butt in zones like crpyts and demi, anywhere with !bash or wraithform mobs.
----------------------------------------
Now the Barbarian.
Great STR and great con, barbarian warriors ARE the best warriors to me. Dorf warriors are right on par with them but well they are dorfs.. They get infra which rocks but well weight up infra vs being a stumpy, stale ale smelling creature... hmmm no thanks.
Barbarian DEX sucks, cant hold a lot in your inventory, possibly fumble more (is fumble is dex based) and a lower hitroll naked. The STR bonus makes up for thast with extra dam.
Barbarian AGI also bites, though it does seem to be int e general opinion that 'who needs ac when you have lots of hp? This is true but if my understanding of great ac making stones/dscales last longer then who needs hp when your not being damaged much? It's all relivant.
I've never played a grey elf warrior nor do I really see the point in being one, why be a warrior be warrior when you could be a kick ass ranger? Now if Halflings could be rangers they would kick your asses to Tiamat and back. Gnome warrior?? hmmm *chuckle* I can't take gnomes seriously at the best of times even as casters. They seem to lack even cuteness compared to a halfling. (sorry gnomes)
My ramblings are based on goodie warriors, purely cause i don't see myself playing an evil warrior unless Jasix could be outcasted to play with a dear friend. Troll warriors are great, regen is a very useful innate, Ogre hmm well I think I would rather be an earth elemental at least I would be smarter... having a billion hp but being too dumb to know whether to ride a horse or eat it not my style.
Conclusion:
Barbarian or Dorf warrior if you want to be taken seriously as a TANK, halfling warrior is you want to be a back up tank and nasty shieldpunching hitter. Halfling warriors will come into their own when you want to bash a reduced enchanter mob.. Or for wraithform fights that need to be silenced.
If ac/AGI has a lot of barring on the time a stoneskin/dragonscale lasts then halfling warriors might have a bigger roll to play then you think. Who needs those extra 150hp when you can last 3 rounds longer before your stoneskins wears off. Less healing needed as well. In the overall duration of a fight halflings might kick some fat hairy dorf ass....
Ok enough for now it's 5am...
Jasix 'Meaty Spice' Prowlingwolf
First the Halfling
Having a +9 or +10 hitroll naked sure helps with eq choices if you're a hit/dam twink. 64ac naked is also great naked as well.
On a normal lvl 46 plus fight in one round I can riposte twice and hit 3 times with a 1 handed weapon and wearing a shield. That's 5 hits a round!! I haven't even tried dualing with him yet. Could i get 7 hits a round with riposte and being hasted? I refer to my little halfie warrior as the MINIMONK!
Yes he does not have the STR to hammer out a crit every other round but he still crits a fair bit, and his weapon procs like new years fireworks. I dont know how a crit works with actual damage but I would assume a good weapon proc would do more damage then a crit? I am probably wrong but I like the proc every other round more thne a crit.
Weight restrictions for weapons sure does suck, people whine that they haven't got a Twinklight of Destruction to play with, I find it more heartbreaking to have one that I cant even wield.
Hitpoints are about 200hp lower then a barbarian at lvl 50. But with a vit and a pair of Amy rings i still have about 750hp, more then enough for a zone going tank. (I would prefer to have 950hp but the kick ass dodge skill sure helps not need them near as much)
I think someone said riposte and shieldblock were STR based. I have to say my little guy shieldblocks more or less the same as the barbarian if not better.
I will be playing a halfling warrior at some stage of beta, they sure do kick ass! They cant bash but well they have many other bonuses. Halfies might kick some big butt in zones like crpyts and demi, anywhere with !bash or wraithform mobs.
----------------------------------------
Now the Barbarian.
Great STR and great con, barbarian warriors ARE the best warriors to me. Dorf warriors are right on par with them but well they are dorfs.. They get infra which rocks but well weight up infra vs being a stumpy, stale ale smelling creature... hmmm no thanks.
Barbarian DEX sucks, cant hold a lot in your inventory, possibly fumble more (is fumble is dex based) and a lower hitroll naked. The STR bonus makes up for thast with extra dam.
Barbarian AGI also bites, though it does seem to be int e general opinion that 'who needs ac when you have lots of hp? This is true but if my understanding of great ac making stones/dscales last longer then who needs hp when your not being damaged much? It's all relivant.
I've never played a grey elf warrior nor do I really see the point in being one, why be a warrior be warrior when you could be a kick ass ranger? Now if Halflings could be rangers they would kick your asses to Tiamat and back. Gnome warrior?? hmmm *chuckle* I can't take gnomes seriously at the best of times even as casters. They seem to lack even cuteness compared to a halfling. (sorry gnomes)
My ramblings are based on goodie warriors, purely cause i don't see myself playing an evil warrior unless Jasix could be outcasted to play with a dear friend. Troll warriors are great, regen is a very useful innate, Ogre hmm well I think I would rather be an earth elemental at least I would be smarter... having a billion hp but being too dumb to know whether to ride a horse or eat it not my style.
Conclusion:
Barbarian or Dorf warrior if you want to be taken seriously as a TANK, halfling warrior is you want to be a back up tank and nasty shieldpunching hitter. Halfling warriors will come into their own when you want to bash a reduced enchanter mob.. Or for wraithform fights that need to be silenced.
If ac/AGI has a lot of barring on the time a stoneskin/dragonscale lasts then halfling warriors might have a bigger roll to play then you think. Who needs those extra 150hp when you can last 3 rounds longer before your stoneskins wears off. Less healing needed as well. In the overall duration of a fight halflings might kick some fat hairy dorf ass....
Ok enough for now it's 5am...
Jasix 'Meaty Spice' Prowlingwolf
If I were a goodie, I swear I would be a halfling warrior. Toss on 2 amy rings, grab myself a nice proccer and I'd be right up there with the barbs and dwarves, 100 % sure of it.
Anyway, I'm not. Here's the story on evil warriors
Troll: regeneration, 'nuff said. Also get damn nice agility and decent hit/dam, take more fire damage tho
Ogre: best bashers in the game, even with a newbie shield Can't be bashed by many mobs, great hit and dam, highest crit %. Suckass dex and agi
Duergar: never played one, never seen one. Starting hit/dam is second only to ogres and halfling tho, plus they get innate invis and enlarge, which kicks butt. Nice dex and average agi.
Wish I had the option of testing a lvl 50 char of each race, but alas
Cherzra
Anyway, I'm not. Here's the story on evil warriors
Troll: regeneration, 'nuff said. Also get damn nice agility and decent hit/dam, take more fire damage tho
Ogre: best bashers in the game, even with a newbie shield
Can't be bashed by many mobs, great hit and dam, highest crit %. Suckass dex and agiDuergar: never played one, never seen one. Starting hit/dam is second only to ogres and halfling tho, plus they get innate invis and enlarge, which kicks butt. Nice dex and average agi.
Wish I had the option of testing a lvl 50 char of each race, but alas
Cherzra
What ever happened to Roleplaying!? Everybody's bitching about who's the better race, and who's not. Yes, and Ogre should be able to kick the sh*t out of a halfling warrior. Period. That sure doesn't mean that I'm not gonna play a halfling warrior or vice/versa. I'm not gonna play a certain class or race just because it's the best to play. I'm going to play it, because that's the race/class I feel like being. I was a gnome warrior, I was a human warrior, I was a troll warrior. I hope this doesn't sound like I'm bitching (but maybe I am, I'm a work and my ass hurts from this wooden stool hehe) I've just seen a few posts about people saying "I'm going to play this race 'cuz it's the best for this clas" ...what? then why don't we just get rid of all the other race/class combinations that nobody wants to play because they aren't "the best"
Agh! Ok.. feel better. No offense to anybody. Just wanted to say that. hehe
Agh! Ok.. feel better. No offense to anybody. Just wanted to say that. hehe
Jasix...
1. Halflings are not going to consistently get 2 ripostes/round. I *wish*. From what I've seen it's more like 3 every 4 rounds or so. Sure, sometimes you get 2 in, but that's not the norm.
2. You haven't bothered trying to dual wield, but if you think about it, it's not really viable, given the weapon weight limitations... remember your off-hand weapon has to be significantly lighter than your primary, and halfling primary is already *severely* limited.
3. Your numbers on hp are severely off, unless you're wearing max con on the barb. Should be either 100 or 150 diff, not 200.
1. Halflings are not going to consistently get 2 ripostes/round. I *wish*. From what I've seen it's more like 3 every 4 rounds or so. Sure, sometimes you get 2 in, but that's not the norm.
2. You haven't bothered trying to dual wield, but if you think about it, it's not really viable, given the weapon weight limitations... remember your off-hand weapon has to be significantly lighter than your primary, and halfling primary is already *severely* limited.
3. Your numbers on hp are severely off, unless you're wearing max con on the barb. Should be either 100 or 150 diff, not 200.
Just thought I'd add my two cents to this whole thing...
I was always trying to find ways to make Rymbie more useful in groups. I remember there was a rumor flying around that very big mobs had a penalty to their hitrolls when fighting halflings, but I never saw this kinda thing first-hand (except for a few occasions on Jot and fighting those pale-skinned giants on BGR). I also found that it was very difficult to try and become a mega-hitter. Now, my eq was *far* from being spanky, but I had maybe one or two nice trinkets. I'm sure if I had the best stuff it would be a little better, but the fact remains that my hit/dam would always pale in comparison to warriors of other races with the comparable eq (the dex bonus to hitroll on Soj3 will help out a lot in this case). And I don't even have to go into the bashing thing. For real, it was a pain to be ALWAYS asking for an enlarge in groups. I dunno if it was cuz I was a halfling or whatever (my height maybe? LOL), but I remember quite a few times when my repeated requests for an enlarge were overlooked -- even when I was specifically assigned a bash target. Fortunately, things would usually work themselves out during battle when this stuff happened.
Anyway...since most of the time I was relegated to "hitter" duty, I was always fooling around with some dualing & 2-handers. I had 100 str, yet could not dual anything over weight 2 or wield a 2-hander heavier than a shining mithril broadsword. Of course, two wipes ago when I had some max_str items I was able to push my str to 112 and finally dual my Blade of Blessings (wt. 3) and probably wield a frosty, too (though I never tested that one out). But either way, I know I was doing less damage than warriors of other races...even with all of my hitter gear on and with them decked in their hp/tank stuff. I'm pretty sure I used the kick & hitall commands a lot more than other warriors, but that probably didn't do much anyway. :P
Anyway, I guess I'm just trying to say that I'm glad these race-based changes went in. I think we all know that halfling/elven warriors will ALWAYS be considerably outnumbered by the other races on the mud, so there really is no point in arguing either way, I think. It's just that demi-human warriors actually have more of a niche now, and won't be so useless in groups anymore. I like to think of myself as a pretty good mudder, but even I wondered to myself why I was invited to some groups when I was basically just some extra baggage (albeit "cute" baggage...hehe). When it comes down to it, I played Rymbie cuz he was an absolute blast to RP.
Okie, I hope I didn't ramble too much.
Rymbie/Shyarn
I was always trying to find ways to make Rymbie more useful in groups. I remember there was a rumor flying around that very big mobs had a penalty to their hitrolls when fighting halflings, but I never saw this kinda thing first-hand (except for a few occasions on Jot and fighting those pale-skinned giants on BGR). I also found that it was very difficult to try and become a mega-hitter. Now, my eq was *far* from being spanky, but I had maybe one or two nice trinkets. I'm sure if I had the best stuff it would be a little better, but the fact remains that my hit/dam would always pale in comparison to warriors of other races with the comparable eq (the dex bonus to hitroll on Soj3 will help out a lot in this case). And I don't even have to go into the bashing thing. For real, it was a pain to be ALWAYS asking for an enlarge in groups. I dunno if it was cuz I was a halfling or whatever (my height maybe? LOL), but I remember quite a few times when my repeated requests for an enlarge were overlooked -- even when I was specifically assigned a bash target. Fortunately, things would usually work themselves out during battle when this stuff happened.
Anyway...since most of the time I was relegated to "hitter" duty, I was always fooling around with some dualing & 2-handers. I had 100 str, yet could not dual anything over weight 2 or wield a 2-hander heavier than a shining mithril broadsword. Of course, two wipes ago when I had some max_str items I was able to push my str to 112 and finally dual my Blade of Blessings (wt. 3) and probably wield a frosty, too (though I never tested that one out). But either way, I know I was doing less damage than warriors of other races...even with all of my hitter gear on and with them decked in their hp/tank stuff. I'm pretty sure I used the kick & hitall commands a lot more than other warriors, but that probably didn't do much anyway. :P
Anyway, I guess I'm just trying to say that I'm glad these race-based changes went in. I think we all know that halfling/elven warriors will ALWAYS be considerably outnumbered by the other races on the mud, so there really is no point in arguing either way, I think. It's just that demi-human warriors actually have more of a niche now, and won't be so useless in groups anymore. I like to think of myself as a pretty good mudder, but even I wondered to myself why I was invited to some groups when I was basically just some extra baggage (albeit "cute" baggage...hehe). When it comes down to it, I played Rymbie cuz he was an absolute blast to RP.
Okie, I hope I didn't ramble too much.
Rymbie/Shyarn
And now for another glorious message!
In sojourn 2, I played an elf warrior with a long name. (Aresanithar if you want to know) Not that that's anything special, because all elves have to have long names. It's in the rules, honest to dwarf. If I recall aright, I was just behind Faedril and Frensolith in levels, and quite frankly, I never did buy into the idea that hps made a warrior.
I've played up a barbarian, and tried a dwarf, but I never got away from the elf. Sure I died faster if I got hit, but I got hit less, thanks to my agi and ac. The only time I'd ever seem to run into trouble was when I got area'd, and that of course was due to my magnificent hps.
Having said all that, I now come to my point. (about time too.) Elven warriors have always kicked ass. Mostly because they where fun to RP, and now because they've been improved somewhat. I've been fooling around with one during the alpha some, and I can see the diffrence. I think the choice for warriors, and any class, is now about rp and less about brutality. Elven and Halfling warriors won't have it easy, especially when the spells start to fly, but they will be fun, viable options. That rocks.
Okay, I stop rambling now.
-Zenriel
THE ELVES ARE COMING!
In sojourn 2, I played an elf warrior with a long name. (Aresanithar if you want to know) Not that that's anything special, because all elves have to have long names. It's in the rules, honest to dwarf. If I recall aright, I was just behind Faedril and Frensolith in levels, and quite frankly, I never did buy into the idea that hps made a warrior.
I've played up a barbarian, and tried a dwarf, but I never got away from the elf. Sure I died faster if I got hit, but I got hit less, thanks to my agi and ac. The only time I'd ever seem to run into trouble was when I got area'd, and that of course was due to my magnificent hps.
Having said all that, I now come to my point. (about time too.) Elven warriors have always kicked ass. Mostly because they where fun to RP, and now because they've been improved somewhat. I've been fooling around with one during the alpha some, and I can see the diffrence. I think the choice for warriors, and any class, is now about rp and less about brutality. Elven and Halfling warriors won't have it easy, especially when the spells start to fly, but they will be fun, viable options. That rocks.
Okay, I stop rambling now.
-Zenriel
THE ELVES ARE COMING!
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