NEW combat changes

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Delmair Aamoren
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NEW combat changes

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sun Sep 16, 2001 10:11 pm

I noticed today i was gettin my ass REAMED when tanking. I put a little research into this and found "holy shit flankblock isn't working". I petitioned about it, and then realized the news had shown that "defensive skills have been changed to further balance combat". I would agree that defensive skills were a bit on the powerful side, but this change, at least for mounted tanks, has been very disabilitating.

Thru about 3 hours of study aboard the ship, i realized that i PARRY about 3-4X as often as my mounted combat skill prevents an attack. Highly irregular. Used to be i would flankblock about 3-4X as much as i parry. This change basically makes a paladin or anti-paladin about as effective as a ranger in tanking. Yes, even mounted.

From what i've noticed, a warrior of same level/skill ability now tanks CONSIDERABLY better than a mounted tank, and does not have the drawbacks of being dismounted mid-combat, having to mount originally, and above all else, having do dismount to flee, or 50% extra chance of fleeing from dragon roar as yer mount leaves the room, ETC.

I'm not saying that shieldblock or other warrior skills weren't also reduced, and from what i did see, they've also been reduced to a near disabilitating state as well (Captain miplit rocked on Thorgil pretty good after beatin me down to 10 hp).

Once again, i definately agree a change should have been in order, but this change is WAY too drastic.

Delmair Aamoren,
The now semi-retired Anti.
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Postby rylan » Sun Sep 16, 2001 10:36 pm

erf.. sounds like PC tanks got hosed Image
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Postby Todrael » Sun Sep 16, 2001 10:46 pm

We had two trolls tank Padashaw with no deaths. You just need to depend on your casters a bit more.

-Todrael
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Postby Jegzed » Sun Sep 16, 2001 10:55 pm

Just means we gotta time the dragonscales much better..
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Postby Dinggle » Sun Sep 16, 2001 11:00 pm

if the tanking skills are useless, can we go back to our tanks all wielding flammeys and frosties or even dual wielding?

:P
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Mon Sep 17, 2001 12:55 am

It was a BUG, that was fixed. Bugs get fixed, and in the process things that were thought to be working correctly didnt. If things need to be adjusted they will. Keep in mind you were NOT supposed to be tanking 2x better then warriors.
Guest

Postby Guest » Mon Sep 17, 2001 3:19 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galok Icewolf:
It was a BUG, that was fixed. Bugs get fixed, and in the process things that were thought to be working correctly didnt. If things need to be adjusted they will. Keep in mind you were NOT supposed to be tanking 2x better then warriors.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And in fact flankblock has already been tweaked. There was a bug affecting how skills were calculated in the logic, and specifically flankblock had a huge bug. We will teak it more as needed to bring it back into balance with other skills.

Erevan
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Postby Corth » Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:22 am

Touk:

Id agree.. if paladins didn't have layhands, heal, and a sword that stones them.

Warriors should have better tanking skills than paladins. Otherwise, whats the point of warriors? Paladins can make up for this with their spanky extra abilities.

Corth
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Postby Sylvos » Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:32 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
Otherwise, whats the point of warriors? </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shieldpunch and more hitpoints than paladins?
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Postby Corth » Mon Sep 17, 2001 5:21 am

I'll give you shieldpunch..

but what good are extra hps if you dont tank as well as the class with less hps?

Corth
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Postby Sylvos » Mon Sep 17, 2001 5:34 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>I'll give you shieldpunch..

but what good are extra hps if you dont tank as well as the class with less hps?

Corth</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yay! You hear that gods! I'm gunna be a ranger with shield punch. Oh, nevermind, I dual.

j/k Corth, I know the context it was meant in. Just funny to look at your statement that way.

As for hit points and tanking, I guess I'd say it's good for weathering the inevitable crits. But my knowledge of high-level fights is pretty limited so I'm going to stop talking on this matter. Image

Sylvos, who likes Paladins for the horses they leave around to tame.
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Postby Zrax » Mon Sep 17, 2001 5:50 am

Making paladins better tanks that warriors is rediculous. Aside from the evilrace goodrace issues it would bring up, there is no way a paladin should be able to sit on a horse, getting 30 ac from armor, casting heal on himself in a fight, laying hands on himself in a jam in that fight, wielding a 2hander without losing his defensive edge and gaining a bonus to hit with it while he gets bonus exp for hitting this evil mob should be able to tank better than a warrior for the sake of losing what, shieldpunch. Maybe if they were forced to cast holy word a few times in the fight this would be fair.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Mon Sep 17, 2001 5:54 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
Making paladins better tanks that warriors is rediculous. Aside from the evilrace goodrace issues it would bring up, there is no way a paladin should be able to sit on a horse, getting 30 ac from armor, casting heal on himself in a fight, laying hands on himself in a jam in that fight, wielding a 2hander without losing his defensive edge and gaining a bonus to hit with it while he gets bonus exp for hitting this evil mob should be able to tank better than a warrior for the sake of losing what, shieldpunch. Maybe if they were forced to cast holy word a few times in the fight this would be fair.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that the evil/good issue is valid, but antis don't have a sword that stones them or the heal spell...gotta look at the big picture....anyway, it's been fixed, time to log on and see how it works =)
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Postby Kiloppile » Mon Sep 17, 2001 9:19 am

The intent was never to make them *better* tanks than warriors. They were simply trying to make them relatively on par. Obviously there was a major problem, because they were tremendously better.
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Postby Cirath » Mon Sep 17, 2001 10:07 am

Well, ive been playing with it a bit since the most recent fix went in and i noticed something... not only do i flankblock only a third as much as i used to, but i also dodge more than i flankblock, despite the fact that my dodge skill is 20 points lower.

i have only been playing with it for little bit but when a mob that cons "fairly easy" and couldnt touch me last week now takes half of my hp before he goes down it seems a bit excessive.

just my views.

Kalith, Paladin of Cyric
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Mon Sep 17, 2001 10:21 am

Kalith, thats what warriors have had to do this whole time. Thats why warriors were upset. BTW... mounted combat includes an ability called charge.. which is barely worse then shieldpunch in the higher levels but does the SAME THING. So they dont lose out on that.

Lets not count the fact that paladins get a shieldblock like skill while wielding a 2handed weapon. IT should work less... and lets not count the bonus for hitting with a 2handed weapon with a bonus for hitting on a mount...

Its amazing paladins need 20 hitroll at 50th level to hit consitantly while warriors need 26-27, and rogues/rangers need 32/34...

I'll tell you now, If i could play a paladin or anti as a evil i would in a second.

[This message has been edited by Galok Icewolf (edited 09-17-2001).]
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Postby Sarell » Mon Sep 17, 2001 10:32 am

Nods nods... lots of good and bad points for both sides. Ultimately when you take all of the points into consideration I think warriors should be able to tank better than a pally, on the basis that pallys can solo a litle aswell, while warriors _generally_ can not.
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Postby Jegzed » Mon Sep 17, 2001 10:33 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galok Icewolf:
<B>Its amazing paladins need 20 hitroll at 50th level to hit consitantly while warriors need 26-27, and rogues/rangers need 32/34...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Last wipe Paladins/anti's could make do with hitrolls of 14-15 at level 50.
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Postby Todrael » Mon Sep 17, 2001 12:40 pm

Heh, paladins used to tank better than warriors? That's like, messed up. Never knew that.. if I did, I might have just rolled up a goodie. I'm kinda surprised no one mentioned it in those many threads about how warriors were horribly bored and didn't have a place in groups any more. Garrote, charge, shaman and illusionist spells take the place of shieldpunch, flankblock takes the place of shieldblock, and off you go with your -paladn- tank?! Sounds pretty messed up to me. And if you really think you need to tank better than a warrior to be useful in zone groups, you needa reevaluate your abilities.

-Todrael
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Sep 17, 2001 3:13 pm

You can't base class balance changes on one high level quest weapon available for that class. Not Ambran, not Windsong, not unholy avenger.

Besides, Ambran's random stoning ability hardly makes or breaks the paladin class. It's a benefit, but by the time a paladin is wielding Ambran, he probably needs scales to survive any nontrivial fight anyway.

- Ragorn
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Postby cherzra » Mon Sep 17, 2001 3:36 pm

I have a little (or not so little anymore) alt on the goodie side for fun, and the past 2 months I have been amazing myself at how good paladins tank. Cyntro, a level 38 paladin when I last grouped with him, almost NEVER got hit because his mount flankblocked everything.. If I (same level war) tried to tank the same mobs, I would get my face shoved into the floor. And he could tank 3-4 mobs without stone and not get hurt, that means something. Throw in the nice heals, other spells, layhands, hitbonus and ability to wield a kickass 2hnder without losing flankblock, and paladins are/were (?) pretty darn nice. Just an observation I made.

And the downgrade didn't only affect paladins: I used to be able to kill DK warleaders without losing more than 150hp but after the changes I barely had 150 left myself. I'd give paladins their flankblock back if warriors could get their skills the way they were before the downgrade, evils don`t have those anyway Image

Cherzra (who cons himself an internet connection in foreign offices Image)
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Postby Galorion » Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:00 pm

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Thats why warriors were upset. BTW... mounted combat includes an ability called charge.. which is barely worse then shieldpunch in the higher levels but does the SAME THING. </font>

From my experience, charge has a miserable success rate and as a result is totally useless since you're completely lagged for 2 rounds afterwards. I'm not sure what the success rate is on shieldpunch since I haven't played the warrior class very much.

I think that paladins need to tank a little better than warriors or they're going to be hard pressed to be worthwhile in zone groups. Layhands/heal makes up for the hit point differential between pallys and warriors, but paladins still have the major disadvantage of having to be mounted to tank.

If pallys dont tank better than warriors, why would anyone bring them to a zone?
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Postby izarek » Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:07 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>Heh, paladins used to tank better than warriors? That's like, messed up. Never knew that.. if I did, I might have just rolled up a goodie. I'm kinda surprised no one mentioned it in those many threads about how warriors were horribly bored and didn't have a place in groups any more. Garrote, charge, shaman and illusionist spells take the place of shieldpunch, flankblock takes the place of shieldblock, and off you go with your -paladn- tank?! Sounds pretty messed up to me. And if you really think you need to tank better than a warrior to be useful in zone groups, you needa reevaluate your abilities.

-Todrael</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From what I've observed, flankblock has enabled paladins to be useful to groups (incl zoning groups). They made great tanks and rescuers. I don't think that they've signifiantly affected the number of warriors in groups. Warriors are the preferred bashers by far and can still tank great with shieldblock. Add to that significantly greater hps, which helps alot. Also, you have to keep in mind that dragging around horses is a pain in the arse and you arent always able to utilize a horse when tanking. Maybe flankblock should be downgraded a lil, but I dont think it should have been raped. And, of course, I still think rangers should have some minor flankblock ability...

Izzy
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Postby Kalthanan » Mon Sep 17, 2001 5:17 pm

*cackle* the new changes are cool.. gives the mud more of a challenge now than ever before.

plus it gets rid of all those whiny people who played the antipal class Image
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Postby Ladorn » Mon Sep 17, 2001 9:30 pm

I honestly think the change is great. I think the intent of the immorts were never to have pal/anti's tank better than warriors. Flank blocking is an incredible skill. There is no way a hybrid class like anti/pal should be able to out tank a pure warrior. Not only did pal/anti's tank better they'd hit a lot harder being able to use 2h weapons as well as afford a lower hitroll. I seriously doubt pal/anti's will be useless. They can still rescue and bash just as well as a warrior. Heck even as a ranger I help with rescuing and sometimes am asked to bash. Why won't a pal or anti do the same? I still remember when rangers were mistakenly given flank blocking and I was actually chose to tank over the warrior in the group. I also pleveled a pally to 30th in a little over 1 day ptime. Flank blocking was way too good even after that initial downgrade. Basically I hope anti/pal to tank about 75% of a warrior. That should be fine. Any worse would make the change too harsh.
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Postby Cirath » Tue Sep 18, 2001 1:40 am

"Basically I hope anti/pal to tank about 75% of a warrior. That should be fine. Any worse would make the change too harsh."

I have no problem with not being able to tank as well as a warrior. in fact, i had no idea we were doing better than warriors as i have had very little interaction with other tanks this wipe. my problem is that i went from being able to just barely solo an "are you mad" mob (level 33 anti-pal being brought to about 50-100 hp at the end, using spells and lifetap) which is also achievable by a warrior, to being slapped around by "perfect match" and "lot of luck" mobs. hell, my rogue can tank better than that.

now i am by no means saying that we are now useless. we still make pretty good hitteres and can offer a bit of support with spells. however, soloing is out of the question now and that is where a majority of my exp comes in. i dont necisarily want to be able to tank like a warrior, i just want to be able to tank better than a mage.

another point id like to make is that people keep pointing out how we ar better than warriors because we can use 2handers and still get a defensive skill akin to shieldblock, this is only true after we get about level 35-36, before which we are using the same 1handers as warriors. also someone stated that charge hits only slightly less than shieldpunch, also not entirely true. mine didnt hit more than 1 in 10 times until about level 30, and even now i only hit about 1 in 3, and if i miss i get wailed on. we arnt necisarily as nice as you people think (and not every mounted class can heal, so theres that too)

i will continue to play my AP and hope that i will be able to tank again soon, but i thought i would insert my veiws.

Kalith, Paladin of Cyric - "Anyone need a hitter?"
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Postby Dinggle » Tue Sep 18, 2001 2:39 am

The stats you quoted above as for the success rate of charge is exactly how often it hits for warriors.


your skills wont become more consistant until:

a) about 40 or so
and
b) you hit skellies or some other type of dedicated skill practice

gyrx missed only one shieldpunch on malice (i think it was..i hardly remember anything on late night zoning runs) and he nearly 50. i have another warr friend who 36 and he hit about 1 in every 3 sp, just like your charges.

it the same
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Postby Kegor » Tue Sep 18, 2001 11:12 am

I think the changes were good and expect more downgrades to welcome elementalists. However, the changes to hitting places more value on eq. My initial concerns being when my level 50 rogue was hitting about 40% of the time with a 34 hitroll. Since then I have changed some eq around and found that 37 hitroll is very neccessary to hit consistant (90%ish). I just feel for those up and coming rogues that have to make due without decent eq.

Anyhow.. Like I said.. I would hope more downgrades would be in the works to make way for elementalists and to challenge us. Most level 50 zones we just breeze right through crushing everything in our way with no casualties. *yawn* Can't wait to fight Tiamat and see some carnage. Honorable mention goes out to Utgard-Loki and the Manscorpion King.. those guys know how to party Image

-Jaznolg
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Postby rylan » Tue Sep 18, 2001 12:38 pm

Hehehe.. yeah, loki knows how to put the smack down Image
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Postby Turxx » Tue Sep 18, 2001 3:49 pm

downgrades $%&*^%*$*&#&*(^%(^$*%$%(^)%^*%#&!!!!!!!!
ARG!
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Postby Turxx » Tue Sep 18, 2001 3:50 pm

no more please

[This message has been edited by Turxx (edited 09-18-2001).]
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Postby belleshel » Tue Sep 18, 2001 3:51 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jaznolg:
I think the changes were good and expect more downgrades to welcome elementalists. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. Lately I've noticed how extremely easy it is to run threw zones almost mindlessly and rack up gear galore. SG now only takes 1/2 a group for some of the best gear around, Brass takes 45 minutes at the most, Crypts is a 40 min run (but nicely balanced due to spankages). Flankblock made things like 2nd gatehouse a joke (a single tank against all the giants without much effort). Do I think downgrading players is the way to go? somewhat..I think area damage needs to be curtailed (10-35% reduction in damage).

I would like to see more 'zone' balancing rather than 'player' balancing...

This will help the newer folks by not reducing how well they can exp, do smaller gear, while making bigger gear more valuable...There is already a huge overstock of a lot of valuable gear.
Better AI, more traps, unexpected things, more rareloads in big zones!, invasion type sets for other zones, big quests along erlans lines to help suck up all this extra gear thats showing up on alts, newbies, dropped Image
I like the idea of showing up to do Pada and having him call guards one time, or track out another time..would really make zoning fun again to have to think Image

Rambling at work,
Belle

Static zones suck;(
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Tue Sep 18, 2001 4:19 pm

Paladins antis been spoiled too long. As a 48th level warrior, ive dealt with leveling. Through the levels 35+ if i tried to tank anything above lot of luck! (1 level above me) i would get hit all over the place, and i would end the fight with very few hps. Deal with it, warriors have been in this hole for a while, why do you think there are so few of them on the goodie side...
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Postby Galorion » Tue Sep 18, 2001 4:26 pm

I'd have to agree with Belle here, it seems that the issue isn't so much the overall playerbase, it's the hardcore people being able to crank through the high level eq zones. The hardcore crowd that has been here for years knows the zones inside and out. As a result, all of the zones can be done extremely fast even if most of the group doesn't know the zone.

The problem with doing player downgrades (I'm not talking about flankblock, I realize that was a bug and an overpowered skill) to balance the hardcore against the zones is that it also affects the rest of the playerbase that doesn't have the same eq and knowledge of the mud. As a result, the average player can really get screwed in this. Maybe the high level zones need to be overhauled a bit and make them more complicated/difficult? The hard part is that the increase in difficulty needs to be creative; just adding death procs to mobs won't fly Image.

[This message has been edited by Galorion (edited 09-18-2001).]
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Postby cherzra » Tue Sep 18, 2001 4:54 pm

Some ideas:

You could have a random load giant at 2nd gatehouse that's a caster... or one who breathes. Heck, two even: one who breathes -and- one who casts. In Brass, you could random load some effreeti or hellhounds or whatever with the sultan, making every trip different. Or you could make mobiles random class, i.e. some effreeti palace guards are just simple warriors while others may be rogues or casters. And the players wouldn't know until they attacked it. In SG, If Skeloh is left unkilled, he could be summoned in by the Sahuagin King in mid-battle. Note that he isn't ALWAYS summoned in, just SOME times, just to make things unpredictable. Even if he was killed, some other SG god or ally might pop up..

And something else... MORE PROCS! The grid and guard giants in Jot could get a proc that allows them to go berserk, effectively doubling their damage for a few minutes: 'As a frost giant berserker gets a crazed look in his eyes, he grips his huge axe and grits his teeth before bellowing an enraged scream!' Or all effreeti could get a breath proc. Or a proc which bathes any shieldpuncher in flames, doing 50-75 or so damage. Geez I can think of so much more.

And of course the tried and tested. RARES! High level zones like seers should have a few rares, this will keep high level players busy for years to come. For example those +2 +2 gloves from hell, it will be years before a handful of people has em. Keep people looking forward to something. And INVASIONS! Load the zone with a different (extra) set of mobs, players LOVE this, it's proven! Gee what if jot invasion and (newhighlevelzoneX) invasion both load? OMG which do you do?


And now my idea to balance it so it is fair for newbies and people right after a wipe:

Perhaps Cyric can add a flag to eq. This would be a value of 1-10, 1 being crappy and 10 being invasion or manscorpion eq. When a group enters a zone, the average value of the eq they wear is calculated, and the zone mobs are altered accordingly. This way the mud can distinguish between 10 mediocre equipped level 50 players, and 10 godly equipped level 50s. The godly group is most likely more experienced and can thus take a tougher zone: Instead of 8 giants at 2nd gatehouse, 10 load. The 'average' jot group consisting of some highbies and some lowbies would have average level 7 eq, this would load the normal zone. A group of experienced long time players might have average 9 eq, which would load a harder set of mobs, or more mobs. After a wipe people would have simpler eq, and thus they wouldn't have to take out Skeloh along with the SG king (which would be impossible at that point). Also, the group size can be taken into account, so 8 level 50's with godly (9) eq get the 'normal' zone too, since that is a small group. 15 people with average lvl 9 eq however...

Etc etc.. just some ideas from your friendly neighborhood mage eq wearing troll! Image

[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 09-18-2001).]
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Postby Galorion » Tue Sep 18, 2001 5:36 pm

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">When a group enters a zone, the average value of the eq they wear is calculated, and the zone mobs are altered accordingly. </font>


Cool idea, but oh man, I can see the twinkage already! A group of level 50s enter the zone naked then wear all of their gear right before the first fight...
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Postby cherzra » Tue Sep 18, 2001 6:22 pm

That would be cheese, and there could be a simple rule against it.

Something simpler than having to add a flag to ALL eq, is to just add a flag to 'good' and 'great' eq. E.g.: an eldrich ring is 3 points, an amethyst 2 and a spider/tit 1. All 'lower' hp rings are 0 points. Same for every slot, this way only a few things have to be flagged instead of everything in the game. The total points (=strength/experience) of a group is calculated and fights are relative.

Don't know how you'd cope with people porting in/out though... but just an idea to spice things up in addition to the random/rare stuff I mentioned in the previous post.

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