Hello,
So I've started to play again and decided that I would address something that has always bothered me about necromancers. They are absolutely horrible against undead. While I agree that some of their spells should not do damage to undead, they have zero spells that are especially effective against undead(unless you count control undead, I don't). I am not looking for a huge upgrade to necromancers, just a mid-high level spell that targets undead only. Maybe not even a damage spell. . .to keep in line with necros being masters of undead maybe some sort of Area undead stun spell would make sense.
Not trying to start a flame war here but I would be interested to hear everyone's opinion. With the recent downgrade in lich spells(recent means since the beginning of alpha) I believe that the addition of something along these lines would not throw the class completely out of balance. Hell, make it a 10th circle spell so necros have something besides globe to mem in that circle, and at the same time liches would have to choose between it and tomb/rot.
Would be interested to hear people's reactions to this. . .especially peeps like ssryth and aktosh(if he still posts here).
Tanras
Necromancers and Undead
Beltyn's and abi dalzim's work on almost all undead (not wraithform though). If any spell was added, it would be great if it was 7th circle, one of those circles without much that you cast often.
I guess I'd rather see control undead and command horde looked at. These are two spells I have never used more than one or two casts to test, and I will probably never mem again. Would be neat if they actually did something useful.
-Todrael
[This message has been edited by Todrael (edited 09-30-2001).]
I guess I'd rather see control undead and command horde looked at. These are two spells I have never used more than one or two casts to test, and I will probably never mem again. Would be neat if they actually did something useful.
-Todrael
[This message has been edited by Todrael (edited 09-30-2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lyt:
I have often thought about why necros don't have a spell that just rocks undead. Sounds like a good idea to me.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe it is the god's opinion that that 'niche' belongs to clerics. Necromancers are more about interacting with undead rather than destroying them, as far as I can tell. Unfortunately, we only seem able to do that through our animation spells.
-Todrael
I have often thought about why necros don't have a spell that just rocks undead. Sounds like a good idea to me.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe it is the god's opinion that that 'niche' belongs to clerics. Necromancers are more about interacting with undead rather than destroying them, as far as I can tell. Unfortunately, we only seem able to do that through our animation spells.
-Todrael
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Todrael:
I believe it is the god's opinion that that 'niche' belongs to clerics. Necromancers are more about interacting with undead rather than destroying them, as far as I can tell. Unfortunately, we only seem able to do that through our animation spells.
Trust me, the cleric anti-undead spells are nothing spectactular.. Eradicate Undead is the strongest one, which doesn't do much more than full harm, and its target only. If it was area effect it would rock, and then that would be true about clerics having a niche against undead.
[This message has been edited by rylan (edited 10-01-2001).]
I believe it is the god's opinion that that 'niche' belongs to clerics. Necromancers are more about interacting with undead rather than destroying them, as far as I can tell. Unfortunately, we only seem able to do that through our animation spells.
Trust me, the cleric anti-undead spells are nothing spectactular.. Eradicate Undead is the strongest one, which doesn't do much more than full harm, and its target only. If it was area effect it would rock, and then that would be true about clerics having a niche against undead.
[This message has been edited by rylan (edited 10-01-2001).]
Beltyn's burning blood works on undead? What other undead, besides maybe vampires, would have blood to burn?
Gah! Pay more attention!
And they should get more anti-undead spells. You think theres never been a necro in his laboratory that's had his army of undead rise up against him? (or at least thought of that possibility)
Izzy
Gah! Pay more attention!
And they should get more anti-undead spells. You think theres never been a necro in his laboratory that's had his army of undead rise up against him? (or at least thought of that possibility)
Izzy
Zombies, ghouls, wights, liches, any being formerly composed of flesh will still be mainly made of water (and blood). Even skeletons.. bones are where blood is produced. As long as they're fresh, anyways, and not mummified.
And I've been killed by my own wraiths before, unable to stop them because I couldn't hurt them. The irony didn't escape me.
-Todrael
And I've been killed by my own wraiths before, unable to stop them because I couldn't hurt them. The irony didn't escape me.
-Todrael
We have spells that affect undead, it's just that you have to be prepared for those fights to be effective.
Beltyns won't work on golems/some undead.
Same with abi dalzim.
Rain of blood is an area spell that works on everybody.
After you go lich you can use ice tomb.
Spells that have absolutely no effect or backfire are the lich spells lich touch and rot.
I don't think we should be the great eradicators of undead although we should have more control over them. I would like to see a boost to command undead and command horde for necromancers. Since they specialize in animating/utilizing the undead they should have a greater affinity for controlling them.
Maybe give them a higher level spell(that 7th circle one) that allows them to take control of higher level undead. Or maybe some non damaging powerword type spells that work on undead only.
These are just some ideas. As it is necromancers/liches are already powerful classes. It's hard for the gods to give them anything more without having to take other things away to balance it.
If they are looking for things to take away to give us these i would suggest ditching feeblemind/ray of enfeeblement, those belong more to an enchanter and we already have wither.
Also I'd like to see rejuvenate major and minor changed. Make the rejuvenate minor permanently lower the age by 1, and rejuvenate major lower by 5. This wouldn't be a major game altering move, it would just reduce the number of times we'd have to cast on people to lower their age. I had a human come up to me the other day who was 209 years old wanting to be rejuved. With the way it is now I'd have to cast rejuvenate major 75-120 times to get him back down to a respectable level(fortunately for me the mud crashed before I really got started rejuving him).
As a tag-a-long to the rejuv spells, i'd like to see necromancers lose haste as it is. Haste belongs to enchanters. Give necros a haste-like spell, let's call it accelerate, that "hastes" the target but also ages them in the process(the way haste is in dnd.)
The "free" hastes should be the province of enchanters, while the necromancers would still have a haste-like ability to do in a pinch. Only they would have to rejuvenate the players afterwards.
Also, speaking as one of the undead of the realms, eradicate undead HURTS! With 600 some odd hps, I cannot survive two castings of this spell by mobs, I take between 200-400 points of damage per spell.
Just some thoughts,
Revenki
Beltyns won't work on golems/some undead.
Same with abi dalzim.
Rain of blood is an area spell that works on everybody.
After you go lich you can use ice tomb.
Spells that have absolutely no effect or backfire are the lich spells lich touch and rot.
I don't think we should be the great eradicators of undead although we should have more control over them. I would like to see a boost to command undead and command horde for necromancers. Since they specialize in animating/utilizing the undead they should have a greater affinity for controlling them.
Maybe give them a higher level spell(that 7th circle one) that allows them to take control of higher level undead. Or maybe some non damaging powerword type spells that work on undead only.
These are just some ideas. As it is necromancers/liches are already powerful classes. It's hard for the gods to give them anything more without having to take other things away to balance it.
If they are looking for things to take away to give us these i would suggest ditching feeblemind/ray of enfeeblement, those belong more to an enchanter and we already have wither.
Also I'd like to see rejuvenate major and minor changed. Make the rejuvenate minor permanently lower the age by 1, and rejuvenate major lower by 5. This wouldn't be a major game altering move, it would just reduce the number of times we'd have to cast on people to lower their age. I had a human come up to me the other day who was 209 years old wanting to be rejuved. With the way it is now I'd have to cast rejuvenate major 75-120 times to get him back down to a respectable level(fortunately for me the mud crashed before I really got started rejuving him).
As a tag-a-long to the rejuv spells, i'd like to see necromancers lose haste as it is. Haste belongs to enchanters. Give necros a haste-like spell, let's call it accelerate, that "hastes" the target but also ages them in the process(the way haste is in dnd.)
The "free" hastes should be the province of enchanters, while the necromancers would still have a haste-like ability to do in a pinch. Only they would have to rejuvenate the players afterwards.
Also, speaking as one of the undead of the realms, eradicate undead HURTS! With 600 some odd hps, I cannot survive two castings of this spell by mobs, I take between 200-400 points of damage per spell.
Just some thoughts,
Revenki
The irony of being the masters of undead, yet at the same time being their bitches is pretty amusing.
From what I've noticed, the Command Undead/Hoard deal coincides with the current level and type of undead you have summoned. In other words, if you have your two wraiths already (or 3 in the cast of 48+ necro/lich), Commanding Undead mobs will always fail. A pity.
I never see these spells used, I agree with the idea to have them made better and therefore use’dful.
I see a compromise between Tanras wanting to stun undead, and Todrael wanting to at least hurt them. What if necro/lich’s could reduce the power levels of undead. I remember reading about a spell called “Rift” (different campaign setting tho) but would open up a portal to the negative material plane, increasing all undead in the immediate area’s HPs. What if necro/lich’s had a REVERSE ability? A way to cut off or diminish the connection all undead in the room have to the negative material plane, and in effect reduce their power levels in percentages? In laymen’s terms, why not allowing necro/lichs to reduce the current level of the undead to a limited degree based on skill proficiency, level, and yadda yadda?
Perhaps another thought would be, a way to further self increase a necro/lich’s resistances to undead related attacks. In other words, give them the ability to cast spells that help protect them from the ones they cast in the first place.
Btw, why don’t classes who have Haste don’t have Slow?
From what I've noticed, the Command Undead/Hoard deal coincides with the current level and type of undead you have summoned. In other words, if you have your two wraiths already (or 3 in the cast of 48+ necro/lich), Commanding Undead mobs will always fail. A pity.
I never see these spells used, I agree with the idea to have them made better and therefore use’dful.
I see a compromise between Tanras wanting to stun undead, and Todrael wanting to at least hurt them. What if necro/lich’s could reduce the power levels of undead. I remember reading about a spell called “Rift” (different campaign setting tho) but would open up a portal to the negative material plane, increasing all undead in the immediate area’s HPs. What if necro/lich’s had a REVERSE ability? A way to cut off or diminish the connection all undead in the room have to the negative material plane, and in effect reduce their power levels in percentages? In laymen’s terms, why not allowing necro/lichs to reduce the current level of the undead to a limited degree based on skill proficiency, level, and yadda yadda?
Perhaps another thought would be, a way to further self increase a necro/lich’s resistances to undead related attacks. In other words, give them the ability to cast spells that help protect them from the ones they cast in the first place.
Btw, why don’t classes who have Haste don’t have Slow?
In most systems, necromancers have some form of protection from their own undead, but sometimes it isn't *quite* adequate. In Dragonlance, you can actually turn undead and if your cleric is the right type, the undead will turn around and kill their master.
How about giving necromancers a self-only spell that enables them to take reduced melee damage from undead? Just something to make sure that they live to flee. And give it a casting time of ** and a duration of 1 minute or so, to ensure that it's just a spot fix.
How about giving necromancers a self-only spell that enables them to take reduced melee damage from undead? Just something to make sure that they live to flee. And give it a casting time of ** and a duration of 1 minute or so, to ensure that it's just a spot fix.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>Unfortunately, protection from undead cannot be cast on undead (liches), so even though I think it's a good idea, I wouldn't want to see it implemented.
-Todrael</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wuuuuuuuuut? But Shevy said lich's aren't a race, but a class! :P
So Todrael, do you suffer from a form of permanent 'protect from undead' then?
<B>Unfortunately, protection from undead cannot be cast on undead (liches), so even though I think it's a good idea, I wouldn't want to see it implemented.
-Todrael</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wuuuuuuuuut? But Shevy said lich's aren't a race, but a class! :P
So Todrael, do you suffer from a form of permanent 'protect from undead' then?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Caedym:
<B> Wuuuuuuuuut? But Shevy said lich's aren't a race, but a class! :P
So Todrael, do you suffer from a form of permanent 'protect from undead' then?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Currently there is some debate about whether liches are a race, class, or state of being.
Here are the points as I recently outlined them:
1) Are Liches traditionally undead? Yes.
2) Am I a Lich? Yup.
3) Therefore, am I undead? Well, let's look at that.
A) I can't sleep, because "Undead don't sleep" (quoted from when I type 'sleep').
B) I can go underwater without the aid of water breathing eq or spell.
C) Heal undead, eradicate undead, destroy undead, protect undead, command undead, command horde work (or try to work) on me ("Ssryth attempts to control you, but you are too powerful!").
D) Protection from undead returns the following when cast on me: "The target is undead! DUH!" (with duh in bright red and blinking
)
E) From help lich: "Liches are former necromancers who delve so far into the Dark Arts that they transcend death and become Undead themselves."
F) I still age, even though in help lich: "Liches do not age".
G) I still need food and drink.
H) I can be resurrected.
-Todrael
<B> Wuuuuuuuuut? But Shevy said lich's aren't a race, but a class! :P
So Todrael, do you suffer from a form of permanent 'protect from undead' then?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Currently there is some debate about whether liches are a race, class, or state of being.
Here are the points as I recently outlined them:
1) Are Liches traditionally undead? Yes.
2) Am I a Lich? Yup.
3) Therefore, am I undead? Well, let's look at that.
A) I can't sleep, because "Undead don't sleep" (quoted from when I type 'sleep').
B) I can go underwater without the aid of water breathing eq or spell.
C) Heal undead, eradicate undead, destroy undead, protect undead, command undead, command horde work (or try to work) on me ("Ssryth attempts to control you, but you are too powerful!").
D) Protection from undead returns the following when cast on me: "The target is undead! DUH!" (with duh in bright red and blinking
)E) From help lich: "Liches are former necromancers who delve so far into the Dark Arts that they transcend death and become Undead themselves."
F) I still age, even though in help lich: "Liches do not age".
G) I still need food and drink.
H) I can be resurrected.
-Todrael
If it walks like a duck...quacks like a duck...
Nice circular logic Tod! You've boiled it down to still being an amorphous being with multiple characteristics who's confused about what he truly is.... we need mud shrinks for these guys. I'd be muddled so deeply in these connundrums (sp) were I a Lich that I'd never get anything done.
Toplack
Nice circular logic Tod! You've boiled it down to still being an amorphous being with multiple characteristics who's confused about what he truly is.... we need mud shrinks for these guys. I'd be muddled so deeply in these connundrums (sp) were I a Lich that I'd never get anything done.
Toplack
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