By Leonard Pitts, Jr.
It's my job to have something to say.
They pay me to provide words that help make sense of that which troubles
the American soul. But in this moment of airless shock when hot tears sting
disbelieving eyes, the only thing I can find to say, the only words that
seem to fit, must be addressed to the unknown author of this suffering.
You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard.
What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World
Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn?
Whatever it was, please know that you failed.
Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause.
Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve.
Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together.
Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a
family rent by racial, social, political and class division, but a family
nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous
emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae -- a singer's revealing dress, a
ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse. We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the
ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of
that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We
are fundamentally decent, though -- peace-loving and compassionate. We
struggle to know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming
majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God.
Some people -- you, perhaps -- think that any or all of this makes us weak.
You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are strong in ways that cannot
be measured by arsenals.
IN PAIN
Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock. We're still
grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did, still working to
make ourselves understand that this isn't a special effect from some
Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot development from a Tom Clancy novel.
Both in terms of the awful scope of their ambition and the probable final
death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of
terrorism in the history of the United States and, probably, the history of
the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before.
But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us
fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last
time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone brought us such abrupt
and monumental pain. When roused, we are righteous in our outrage, terrible
in our force. When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any
suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice.
I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you, I
think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with
dread of the future.
In the days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers
pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can be
done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened security,
misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward from this
moment sobered, chastened, sad. But determined, too. Unimaginably
determined.
THE STEEL IN US
You see, the steel in us is not always readily apparent. That aspect of our
character is seldom understood by people who don't know us well. On this
day, the family's bickering is put on hold.
As Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans, we
will rise in defense of all that we cherish.
So I ask again: What was it you hoped to teach us? It occurs to me that
maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred. If that's the
case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You
don't know my people. You don't know what we're capable of. You don't know
what you just started.
But you're about to learn.
World Trade Center Attack
I work for the Government of Canada
information line and we get all sorts of
government emails from various departments,
this site just came in.
http://commemoration.gc.ca/11sept2001/
It is a site where you can post Messages of Condolence for Families of the Victims and to the American People
information line and we get all sorts of
government emails from various departments,
this site just came in.
http://commemoration.gc.ca/11sept2001/
It is a site where you can post Messages of Condolence for Families of the Victims and to the American People
-
Gindipple
- Sojourner
- Posts: 676
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: O' Fallon, MO. USA
- Contact:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xyd:
http://artbell.com/images/wtcdevil.jpg</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Pretty cool that someone took the time to notice that, but I have no doubt that a different artist could draw different lines and make it appear to be moses.
http://artbell.com/images/wtcdevil.jpg</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Pretty cool that someone took the time to notice that, but I have no doubt that a different artist could draw different lines and make it appear to be moses.
-
Guest
I loved reading this.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>By Leonard Pitts, Jr.
It's my job to have something to say.
They pay me to provide words that help make sense of that which troubles
the American soul. But in this moment of airless shock when hot tears sting
disbelieving eyes, the only thing I can find to say, the only words that
seem to fit, must be addressed to the unknown author of this suffering.
You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard.
What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World
Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn?
Whatever it was, please know that you failed.
Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause.
Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve.
Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together.
Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a
family rent by racial, social, political and class division, but a family
nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous
emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae -- a singer's revealing dress, a
ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse. We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the
ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of
that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We
are fundamentally decent, though -- peace-loving and compassionate. We
struggle to know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming
majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God.
Some people -- you, perhaps -- think that any or all of this makes us weak.
You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are strong in ways that cannot
be measured by arsenals.
IN PAIN
Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock. We're still
grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did, still working to
make ourselves understand that this isn't a special effect from some
Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot development from a Tom Clancy novel.
Both in terms of the awful scope of their ambition and the probable final
death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of
terrorism in the history of the United States and, probably, the history of
the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before.
But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us
fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last
time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone brought us such abrupt
and monumental pain. When roused, we are righteous in our outrage, terrible
in our force. When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any
suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice.
I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you, I
think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with
dread of the future.
In the days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers
pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can be
done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened security,
misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward from this
moment sobered, chastened, sad. But determined, too. Unimaginably
determined.
THE STEEL IN US
You see, the steel in us is not always readily apparent. That aspect of our
character is seldom understood by people who don't know us well. On this
day, the family's bickering is put on hold.
As Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans, we
will rise in defense of all that we cherish.
So I ask again: What was it you hoped to teach us? It occurs to me that
maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred. If that's the
case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You
don't know my people. You don't know what we're capable of. You don't know
what you just started.
But you're about to learn.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>By Leonard Pitts, Jr.
It's my job to have something to say.
They pay me to provide words that help make sense of that which troubles
the American soul. But in this moment of airless shock when hot tears sting
disbelieving eyes, the only thing I can find to say, the only words that
seem to fit, must be addressed to the unknown author of this suffering.
You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard.
What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World
Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn?
Whatever it was, please know that you failed.
Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause.
Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve.
Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together.
Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a
family rent by racial, social, political and class division, but a family
nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous
emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae -- a singer's revealing dress, a
ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse. We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the
ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of
that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We
are fundamentally decent, though -- peace-loving and compassionate. We
struggle to know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming
majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God.
Some people -- you, perhaps -- think that any or all of this makes us weak.
You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are strong in ways that cannot
be measured by arsenals.
IN PAIN
Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock. We're still
grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did, still working to
make ourselves understand that this isn't a special effect from some
Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot development from a Tom Clancy novel.
Both in terms of the awful scope of their ambition and the probable final
death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of
terrorism in the history of the United States and, probably, the history of
the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before.
But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us
fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last
time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone brought us such abrupt
and monumental pain. When roused, we are righteous in our outrage, terrible
in our force. When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any
suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice.
I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you, I
think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with
dread of the future.
In the days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers
pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can be
done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened security,
misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward from this
moment sobered, chastened, sad. But determined, too. Unimaginably
determined.
THE STEEL IN US
You see, the steel in us is not always readily apparent. That aspect of our
character is seldom understood by people who don't know us well. On this
day, the family's bickering is put on hold.
As Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans, we
will rise in defense of all that we cherish.
So I ask again: What was it you hoped to teach us? It occurs to me that
maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred. If that's the
case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You
don't know my people. You don't know what we're capable of. You don't know
what you just started.
But you're about to learn.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Amen, to the author of that message.
I think the best quote that I've heard on this subject comes not from recent days, but from the days following the attack on Pearl Harbor, from a Japanese Admiral. (If I remember correctly it was Yamamoto himself). I have to paraphrase because I don't have it in front of me, but this is an accurate depiction of the quote (which was read on one of the tv shows yesterday):
"I fear all that we have accomplished is to awaken a sleeping giant."
And remember, this was regarding what was essentially an act of war (albeit through a communication screw-up war was not declared quite in time, but nonetheless it was nation vs. nation).
[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 09-14-2001).]
I think the best quote that I've heard on this subject comes not from recent days, but from the days following the attack on Pearl Harbor, from a Japanese Admiral. (If I remember correctly it was Yamamoto himself). I have to paraphrase because I don't have it in front of me, but this is an accurate depiction of the quote (which was read on one of the tv shows yesterday):
"I fear all that we have accomplished is to awaken a sleeping giant."
And remember, this was regarding what was essentially an act of war (albeit through a communication screw-up war was not declared quite in time, but nonetheless it was nation vs. nation).
[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 09-14-2001).]
A little something I wrote. I'm certainly not as eloquent as the person who wrote the preceding.
To whomever perpetrated the acts of Sept.11, 2001,
Welcome to the new world which you have helped to create. With your deeds, you have given virtually all of the governments of the world a common cause to rally around. You have given all of us a new sense of unity, togetherness, and in the end hope. We will band together, and search out those who would use any means to inflict pain, suffering, and death on the free peoples of the world. No safety can be found in this new world you have created, no hole is small enough or deep enough for you to hide in. Organizations which support you, aid you, instigate actions of your kind will be found, brought to the table, and if necessary eliminated.
You may have the impression that the peoples of the world do not have the fortitude to stand up to people like yourselves. This ignores most of our history, and the history of the other nations of the world who support us. The mere fact that we have, over the years, become more "civilized", should not be taken as a sign of weakness. If civilization makes us weak, then truly you will be shown soon how very great our strength is, even in this "weakness." We will reach out as one into the holes in which you hide. Nations which attempt to shelter you will discover the futility of such actions, and the grave consequences for their own governments.
Estimations that we will somehow be unwilling to go to the lengths you have to achieve our means are only partially accurate. We will not slaughter for the sake of creating a body count. Nor will we intentionally lash out at civilian populations that support your cause. There will be collateral deaths, but that is a far cry from the intentional murder of large numbers of civilians. We will eliminate the governmental support for your organizations, and organize an international search for any and all of you.
And for those who find it necessary to cheer these horrendous acts of violence, I have a warning: Be very sure of where you tread. Creating the belief in the governments of the world that you not only support these acts and these people, but also that you would potentially harbor them, may well have catastrophic effects for the future of your countries and your governments. To ally oneself with the shadow forces of these organizations is to call attention to your lack of compassion for the individual people whose lives have been lost in these events. I would suggest that you take a deep breath, and consider not only those whom you would call your friends, but also those whom you would declare your enemies.
We live in a very different world today than we did just four days ago. If anything has been accomplished by the brutal acts of September 11, 2001, it is to bring the people of the world together in outrage at the lengths to which your organizations are willing to go. This will be the legacy you leave the world. Some consolation this will be, in the coming weeks and months, as your organizations are ripped out "branch and root" as Mr. Powell has stated they will be. Know that the world you leave is united, strong, and will be a far more peaceful place - as a direct result of your actions. You have failed to drive a stake into the heart of the free peoples of the world. All you have done is to educate us on how petty our differences have been.
To whomever perpetrated the acts of Sept.11, 2001,
Welcome to the new world which you have helped to create. With your deeds, you have given virtually all of the governments of the world a common cause to rally around. You have given all of us a new sense of unity, togetherness, and in the end hope. We will band together, and search out those who would use any means to inflict pain, suffering, and death on the free peoples of the world. No safety can be found in this new world you have created, no hole is small enough or deep enough for you to hide in. Organizations which support you, aid you, instigate actions of your kind will be found, brought to the table, and if necessary eliminated.
You may have the impression that the peoples of the world do not have the fortitude to stand up to people like yourselves. This ignores most of our history, and the history of the other nations of the world who support us. The mere fact that we have, over the years, become more "civilized", should not be taken as a sign of weakness. If civilization makes us weak, then truly you will be shown soon how very great our strength is, even in this "weakness." We will reach out as one into the holes in which you hide. Nations which attempt to shelter you will discover the futility of such actions, and the grave consequences for their own governments.
Estimations that we will somehow be unwilling to go to the lengths you have to achieve our means are only partially accurate. We will not slaughter for the sake of creating a body count. Nor will we intentionally lash out at civilian populations that support your cause. There will be collateral deaths, but that is a far cry from the intentional murder of large numbers of civilians. We will eliminate the governmental support for your organizations, and organize an international search for any and all of you.
And for those who find it necessary to cheer these horrendous acts of violence, I have a warning: Be very sure of where you tread. Creating the belief in the governments of the world that you not only support these acts and these people, but also that you would potentially harbor them, may well have catastrophic effects for the future of your countries and your governments. To ally oneself with the shadow forces of these organizations is to call attention to your lack of compassion for the individual people whose lives have been lost in these events. I would suggest that you take a deep breath, and consider not only those whom you would call your friends, but also those whom you would declare your enemies.
We live in a very different world today than we did just four days ago. If anything has been accomplished by the brutal acts of September 11, 2001, it is to bring the people of the world together in outrage at the lengths to which your organizations are willing to go. This will be the legacy you leave the world. Some consolation this will be, in the coming weeks and months, as your organizations are ripped out "branch and root" as Mr. Powell has stated they will be. Know that the world you leave is united, strong, and will be a far more peaceful place - as a direct result of your actions. You have failed to drive a stake into the heart of the free peoples of the world. All you have done is to educate us on how petty our differences have been.
It seems increasinly clear that Osama bin Ladin is behind Tuesday's coordinated hijackings and attacks, even though no one will officially confirm this. The Taliban continues to refuse extradition of Osama, ('the guest' as they refer to him) and it is fairly certain that they are complicit in the attacks as well.
But for those whose immediate reaction is to turn Afghanistan into a sea of glass (and that was my initial reaction as well) here is an article that explains the situation in Afghanistan. After reading it I feel that aerial bombing would be a great injustice and that instead, ground troops should be sent in to aid the considerable opposition to the Taliban.
Please read this article, I'm sure you will find it very enlightening. It is called 'All no longer quiet on the Afghan front.'
http://www.atimes.com/c-asia/CI13Ag01.html
But for those whose immediate reaction is to turn Afghanistan into a sea of glass (and that was my initial reaction as well) here is an article that explains the situation in Afghanistan. After reading it I feel that aerial bombing would be a great injustice and that instead, ground troops should be sent in to aid the considerable opposition to the Taliban.
Please read this article, I'm sure you will find it very enlightening. It is called 'All no longer quiet on the Afghan front.'
http://www.atimes.com/c-asia/CI13Ag01.html
-
Uthgar
- Staff Member - Coder
- Posts: 141
- Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Chatsworth, CA, USA
I don't think I've heard anyone really discuss the full ramifications of what our national policy needs to be. I, for one, am not ready to mourn until our nation has begun to strike back at our attackers.
Who are those attackers? Islamic Fundamentalism in all its forms in all nations where it is found. This movement, begun in the 1920's, was born in an era of virulent nationalism and racism, and has ideologies such as fascism and nazism as its contemporaries. After much thought, I've concluded that the only difference Islamic Fundamentalism has from fascism is its religious component. It is fascism. It must be exterminated. I'm all for religious freedom within reason. But this is not within reason. For those familiar with the fiction of Orson Scott Card and his Ender's Game series, the question I ask myself is, are Islamic Fundamentalists varelse (are we unable to truly communicate with them and therefore unable to co-exist)? My personal answer is yes, they are varelse. Just as the fascists and nazis were hunted down and brought to justice, the members of the Islamic Fundamentalist movement must also be hunted down. Any nation who resists should face joint invasion and occupation by combined forces of the U.S., the E.U., and Russia. Those nations would purge this alien ideology from the world.
I don't want to target all of Islam, a normally peaceful religion well able to co-exist with non-members. This is only directed at members of the Islamic Fundamentalist movement that declared war on the United States Tuesday, particularly the Islamic Brotherhood, the international network founded in Egpyt in the 1920's with which Osama Bin-Laden coordinates his attacks.
Uthgar
"Kill them, kill them all!"
- Delenn, Babylon 5
Who are those attackers? Islamic Fundamentalism in all its forms in all nations where it is found. This movement, begun in the 1920's, was born in an era of virulent nationalism and racism, and has ideologies such as fascism and nazism as its contemporaries. After much thought, I've concluded that the only difference Islamic Fundamentalism has from fascism is its religious component. It is fascism. It must be exterminated. I'm all for religious freedom within reason. But this is not within reason. For those familiar with the fiction of Orson Scott Card and his Ender's Game series, the question I ask myself is, are Islamic Fundamentalists varelse (are we unable to truly communicate with them and therefore unable to co-exist)? My personal answer is yes, they are varelse. Just as the fascists and nazis were hunted down and brought to justice, the members of the Islamic Fundamentalist movement must also be hunted down. Any nation who resists should face joint invasion and occupation by combined forces of the U.S., the E.U., and Russia. Those nations would purge this alien ideology from the world.
I don't want to target all of Islam, a normally peaceful religion well able to co-exist with non-members. This is only directed at members of the Islamic Fundamentalist movement that declared war on the United States Tuesday, particularly the Islamic Brotherhood, the international network founded in Egpyt in the 1920's with which Osama Bin-Laden coordinates his attacks.
Uthgar
"Kill them, kill them all!"
- Delenn, Babylon 5
-
Gindipple
- Sojourner
- Posts: 676
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: O' Fallon, MO. USA
- Contact:
Ok now I'm pissed!
Seen that Passenger 57 was gonna be on tonight and I rather liked that movie. So I set a reminder to watch it. Guess what? It's not on now. Why? Likely some TV exec now thinks he knows how to protect me best.
Freedom and security are inversely proportional.
Let me decide what is good for me to watch damn it.
Seen that Passenger 57 was gonna be on tonight and I rather liked that movie. So I set a reminder to watch it. Guess what? It's not on now. Why? Likely some TV exec now thinks he knows how to protect me best.
Freedom and security are inversely proportional.
Let me decide what is good for me to watch damn it.
Very good post, Uthgar. That is exactly how I see it as well.
We cannot, however, forget that the cost of victory may be as high as the cost of losing, in this war. "Occupying" a nation like Afghanistan, or Pakistan, or Sudan will be every bit as bloody as sitting back and taking the terrorist hits. Look at Afghanistan in the 80s. It is the only option remaining to us, however. We just need to be fully cognizant of the huge, huge undertaking we are beginning, and we must steel ourselves for the long haul. Not just years, but perhaps decades, and generations.
As for facism, the Nazi's were Christian fascists. The Blitz was not much different from what we saw on Tuesday. War had been declared in both cases, only we'd not taken the modern one seriously. Well, now it's time to get serious. This is going to hurt, perhaps as much as Tuesday did, but we must recognize the enemy, as Uthgar has, instead of blaming individuals... and wage our fiercest war yet, and accordingly.
We cannot, however, forget that the cost of victory may be as high as the cost of losing, in this war. "Occupying" a nation like Afghanistan, or Pakistan, or Sudan will be every bit as bloody as sitting back and taking the terrorist hits. Look at Afghanistan in the 80s. It is the only option remaining to us, however. We just need to be fully cognizant of the huge, huge undertaking we are beginning, and we must steel ourselves for the long haul. Not just years, but perhaps decades, and generations.
As for facism, the Nazi's were Christian fascists. The Blitz was not much different from what we saw on Tuesday. War had been declared in both cases, only we'd not taken the modern one seriously. Well, now it's time to get serious. This is going to hurt, perhaps as much as Tuesday did, but we must recognize the enemy, as Uthgar has, instead of blaming individuals... and wage our fiercest war yet, and accordingly.
The one thing that may spare us much of the bloodshed is the Northern Alliance. Unfortunately, they control approximately 5% of what we call Afghanistan at this point.
We might quickly find, however, that there are quite a number of people under the control of the Taliban who in fact do not support it. This is the wildcard that may save us.
We might quickly find, however, that there are quite a number of people under the control of the Taliban who in fact do not support it. This is the wildcard that may save us.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kiloppile:
<B>The one thing that may spare us much of the bloodshed is the Northern Alliance. Unfortunately, they control approximately 5% of what we call Afghanistan at this point.
We might quickly find, however, that there are quite a number of people under the control of the Taliban who in fact do not support it. This is the wildcard that may save us.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, Kiloppile, that is exactly the point I was trying to make and the reason I posted the web page address I did.
The Taliban is a government of occupation and oppression, and those under their rule are NOT responsible for their government's actions. They are just as much victims as those in the hijacked planes and in the towers. Any who dare oppose the Taliban are ruthlessly killed or incarcerated in prisons that are the equivalent of concentration camps.
If we truly want justice, if we truly want to make the Taliban sorry they ever sponsored such attacks on US soil (and I'm convinced they did) we will liberate the people of Afghanistan from their oppressors and publicly try all the members of the Taliban hierarchy, much as the world tried Nazi war criminals.
P.S. Am I the only one who has thought it was no coincidence that the Taliban arrested 8 foreign nationals for proselytizing a few weeks ago? Has no one else realized that they are now hostages?
--Eadgydd
<B>The one thing that may spare us much of the bloodshed is the Northern Alliance. Unfortunately, they control approximately 5% of what we call Afghanistan at this point.
We might quickly find, however, that there are quite a number of people under the control of the Taliban who in fact do not support it. This is the wildcard that may save us.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, Kiloppile, that is exactly the point I was trying to make and the reason I posted the web page address I did.
The Taliban is a government of occupation and oppression, and those under their rule are NOT responsible for their government's actions. They are just as much victims as those in the hijacked planes and in the towers. Any who dare oppose the Taliban are ruthlessly killed or incarcerated in prisons that are the equivalent of concentration camps.
If we truly want justice, if we truly want to make the Taliban sorry they ever sponsored such attacks on US soil (and I'm convinced they did) we will liberate the people of Afghanistan from their oppressors and publicly try all the members of the Taliban hierarchy, much as the world tried Nazi war criminals.
P.S. Am I the only one who has thought it was no coincidence that the Taliban arrested 8 foreign nationals for proselytizing a few weeks ago? Has no one else realized that they are now hostages?
--Eadgydd
-
Guest
Regarding all this Nostradamus nonsense, try this on for size (taken from a web page 
Century 6, Quatrain 97:
Cinq et quarante degrez ciel bruslera
Feu approcher de la grand cité neuve
Instant grand flamme esparse sautera
Quand on voudra des Normans faire preuue.
An approximate English translation would be:
Five and forty steps the sky will burn
Fire approaching the large new city
Instantly a great thin flame will leap
When someone will want to test the Normans.
Even if this is a real prophecy of Nostradamus', it simply provides more evidence of how much shoehorning has to be performed to get one of these vague "predictions" to fit modern occurrences. It cites no date whatsoever. The line about a sky that "will burn at five and forty steps" (or "degrees") is interpreted to refer to New York City, the forty-five degrees being the Big Apple's latitude -- never mind that New York City is actually below the 41° latitude mark, and that several major North American cities (e.g., Boston, Milwaukee, Chicago, Minneapolis, Toronto, Montreal) are much closer to 45° latitude than Gotham. (You can bet that if events had occurred in a more southern city, such as Dallas, the Nostradamus buffs now would be claiming that the "five and forty degrees" was obviously meant to refer to air temperature, not latitude.) As well, New York (one of North America's oldest cities) is only "new" in the sense that its name contains the word "new" (a criterion which describes many other of the world's large cities, such as New Delhi), the flames resulting from the terrorist attack in New York were anything but "thin" (or "scattered"); and nobody has a clue what "Normans" (what we would call "Vikings" or "French") have to do with hijacked airliners crashing into American cities. (Apparently Nostradamus could predict the exact date and location of a terrorist attack on New York City several hundred years in advance, but he couldn't see that America would be a
mixture of many different ethnicities by then.)
All in all, the Great Chicago Fire of 1871 is a much better fit for this one. So is the explosion resulting from the collision of the ships Mont Blanc and Imo in 1917, which killed thousands of people and destroyed much of Halifax -- a city just a few degrees shy of 45° latitude. In fact, the devastating Peshtigo forest fire (which occurred on the same night as the Great Chicago Fire) claimed 1,200 lives and occurred right on the 45th parallel. To top it all off, this very same verse was widely cited several years ago as having predicted the discovery and approach of the spectacular Hale-Bopp comet in 1995, and then again several months later as having predicted the mysterious crash of TWA Flight 800 in July 1996. This prophecy is truly the Mr. Potato Head of predictions -- if the parts don't fit to your liking, just rearrange them and try again.
--D2
Century 6, Quatrain 97:
Cinq et quarante degrez ciel bruslera
Feu approcher de la grand cité neuve
Instant grand flamme esparse sautera
Quand on voudra des Normans faire preuue.
An approximate English translation would be:
Five and forty steps the sky will burn
Fire approaching the large new city
Instantly a great thin flame will leap
When someone will want to test the Normans.
Even if this is a real prophecy of Nostradamus', it simply provides more evidence of how much shoehorning has to be performed to get one of these vague "predictions" to fit modern occurrences. It cites no date whatsoever. The line about a sky that "will burn at five and forty steps" (or "degrees") is interpreted to refer to New York City, the forty-five degrees being the Big Apple's latitude -- never mind that New York City is actually below the 41° latitude mark, and that several major North American cities (e.g., Boston, Milwaukee, Chicago, Minneapolis, Toronto, Montreal) are much closer to 45° latitude than Gotham. (You can bet that if events had occurred in a more southern city, such as Dallas, the Nostradamus buffs now would be claiming that the "five and forty degrees" was obviously meant to refer to air temperature, not latitude.) As well, New York (one of North America's oldest cities) is only "new" in the sense that its name contains the word "new" (a criterion which describes many other of the world's large cities, such as New Delhi), the flames resulting from the terrorist attack in New York were anything but "thin" (or "scattered"); and nobody has a clue what "Normans" (what we would call "Vikings" or "French") have to do with hijacked airliners crashing into American cities. (Apparently Nostradamus could predict the exact date and location of a terrorist attack on New York City several hundred years in advance, but he couldn't see that America would be a
mixture of many different ethnicities by then.)
All in all, the Great Chicago Fire of 1871 is a much better fit for this one. So is the explosion resulting from the collision of the ships Mont Blanc and Imo in 1917, which killed thousands of people and destroyed much of Halifax -- a city just a few degrees shy of 45° latitude. In fact, the devastating Peshtigo forest fire (which occurred on the same night as the Great Chicago Fire) claimed 1,200 lives and occurred right on the 45th parallel. To top it all off, this very same verse was widely cited several years ago as having predicted the discovery and approach of the spectacular Hale-Bopp comet in 1995, and then again several months later as having predicted the mysterious crash of TWA Flight 800 in July 1996. This prophecy is truly the Mr. Potato Head of predictions -- if the parts don't fit to your liking, just rearrange them and try again.
--D2
-
Fezbozz
- Sojourner
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Leesburg,Indiana, US
- Contact:
The tragedy that happened in our country fills be with deep sorrow for all those lost lives for no better reason then to just show hatred for our country. People that hurt other people just make me sick to my stomach. I am not much of a writer but I knowmsome lyrics to a song that fit well.
Liberty or death,what we so proudly hail
Once you provoke her,rattling of her tail
never begins it,never,but once engaged
never surrenders, showing the fangs of rage
Don't tread on me
so be it
threaten no more
to secure peace is to prepare for war
so be it
settle the score
touch me again for the words that you'll hear evermore
don't tread o me
Love it or leave it, she with the deadly bite
quick is the the blue tongue, forked as the lightening strike
shining with brightness,always on surveilance
the eyes never close, emblem of vigilance
Don't tread on me!
Repeat chorus and stuff not gonna type it again James Hetfield........
[This message has been edited by Fezbozz (edited 09-15-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Fezbozz (edited 09-15-2001).]
Liberty or death,what we so proudly hail
Once you provoke her,rattling of her tail
never begins it,never,but once engaged
never surrenders, showing the fangs of rage
Don't tread on me
so be it
threaten no more
to secure peace is to prepare for war
so be it
settle the score
touch me again for the words that you'll hear evermore
don't tread o me
Love it or leave it, she with the deadly bite
quick is the the blue tongue, forked as the lightening strike
shining with brightness,always on surveilance
the eyes never close, emblem of vigilance
Don't tread on me!
Repeat chorus and stuff not gonna type it again James Hetfield........
[This message has been edited by Fezbozz (edited 09-15-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Fezbozz (edited 09-15-2001).]
This song says alot admist the horror and sadness that has happened.
Creed - Higher
When dreaming I'm guided to another world
Time and time again
At sunrise I fight to stay asleep
'Cause I don't want to leave the comfort of this place
'Cause there's a hunger, a longing to escape
From the life I live when I'm awake
So let's go there
Let's make our escape
Come on, let's go there
Let's ask can we stay?
Can you take me higher?
To a place where blind men see
Can you take me higher?
To a place with golden streets
Although I would like our world to change
It helps me to appreciate
Those nights and those dreams
But, my friend, I'd sacrifice all those nights
If I could make the Earth and my dreams the same
The only difference is
To let love replace all our hate
So let's go there
Let's make our escape
Come on, let's go there
Let's ask can we stay?
Can you take me higher?
To a place where blind men see
Can you take me higher?
To a place with golden streets
So let's go there, lets go there
Come on, lets go there
Let's ask can we stay?
Up high I feel like I'm alive for the very first time
Set up high I'm strong enough to take these dreams
And make them mine
Set up high I'm strong enough to take these dreams
And make them mine
Creed - Higher
When dreaming I'm guided to another world
Time and time again
At sunrise I fight to stay asleep
'Cause I don't want to leave the comfort of this place
'Cause there's a hunger, a longing to escape
From the life I live when I'm awake
So let's go there
Let's make our escape
Come on, let's go there
Let's ask can we stay?
Can you take me higher?
To a place where blind men see
Can you take me higher?
To a place with golden streets
Although I would like our world to change
It helps me to appreciate
Those nights and those dreams
But, my friend, I'd sacrifice all those nights
If I could make the Earth and my dreams the same
The only difference is
To let love replace all our hate
So let's go there
Let's make our escape
Come on, let's go there
Let's ask can we stay?
Can you take me higher?
To a place where blind men see
Can you take me higher?
To a place with golden streets
So let's go there, lets go there
Come on, lets go there
Let's ask can we stay?
Up high I feel like I'm alive for the very first time
Set up high I'm strong enough to take these dreams
And make them mine
Set up high I'm strong enough to take these dreams
And make them mine
If anyone wants to read a chilling, yet very well written paper on the threat that terrorism poses to the USA, check out this link. It was written way before the current attack and that makes its conclusions even more relevant imho, because its not written in anger as are the responses to the WTC tragedy.
http://www.terrorism.com/analysis/quillen-wmd-terrorism.pdf
Corth
http://www.terrorism.com/analysis/quillen-wmd-terrorism.pdf
Corth
http://thankyou.fast-networks.net/
A page with pictures and memorials of the worlds grieving. The pictures are of those who share the pain with the US.
-Todrael
A page with pictures and memorials of the worlds grieving. The pictures are of those who share the pain with the US.
-Todrael
Toddrael:
Thanks for posting that. It is very comforting to know that the rest of the world is in solidarity with NY and the USA. Hopefully in this climate terror will finally be eradicated.
I was in Union Square about an hour ago in Manhattan. It looks a lot like many of the pictures on that link you posted. There are flowers and candles everywhere. And there are also pictures.. everywhere.. of people who are now dead. Most of them are young and many left behind young spouses and young children.
Although union square is a hotbed for peaceniks, this display made me even more angry at the criminal bastards that caused this to happen. I've about had it with the "give peace a chance" crowd. The USA is a lawful and peaceful country. We dont target civilians for attack in order to get attention. We've given peace a chance and guess what.. thousands of innocents died. Who knows, the next attack could be much worse (check out the link i posted). Its time to eradicate these fuckers from the earth.
Corth
Thanks for posting that. It is very comforting to know that the rest of the world is in solidarity with NY and the USA. Hopefully in this climate terror will finally be eradicated.
I was in Union Square about an hour ago in Manhattan. It looks a lot like many of the pictures on that link you posted. There are flowers and candles everywhere. And there are also pictures.. everywhere.. of people who are now dead. Most of them are young and many left behind young spouses and young children.
Although union square is a hotbed for peaceniks, this display made me even more angry at the criminal bastards that caused this to happen. I've about had it with the "give peace a chance" crowd. The USA is a lawful and peaceful country. We dont target civilians for attack in order to get attention. We've given peace a chance and guess what.. thousands of innocents died. Who knows, the next attack could be much worse (check out the link i posted). Its time to eradicate these fuckers from the earth.
Corth
Lot of well put posts... Corth and Miax's being the ones I agree with most. Also, that link you posted was awesome Corth.. I have learned much.
I know our elected officials and military will act on this matter with much cooperation from other nations in an intelectual cool headed manner. I have total faith in that.
Here's one for ya on Osama bin Laden. Lots of interesting stuff there.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/
-Jaznolg
I know our elected officials and military will act on this matter with much cooperation from other nations in an intelectual cool headed manner. I have total faith in that.
Here's one for ya on Osama bin Laden. Lots of interesting stuff there.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/
-Jaznolg
This can only lead to WWIII. There will be weapons of mass destruction used by all sides. The battle lines are just being drawn now. At first there will be the traditional warfare by one side and the classic terrist counter attacks by the others. Eventually this will lead to some kind of chemical terrist attack that will force a nuclear responce. The real war/destruction of earth has yet to come. As nuclear responces are used other countries that were nuetral will join in the fun not wanting to be left out for the bar has been risen on what kind of violence is now acceptable. Enjoy this mud while you can because this war will affect everybody. Not just Europe, Middle East and Asia. Only the Australians will survive. Heeh. Maybe Chile. Every nation is very smart to be concerned with the current affairs. This is not just a few Islamic Extremist pissed at the U.S.A. It is the beginning of the end. The main problem is there are many who wish to meet there maker through battle on one side and there are many who are willing to help them do that on the other.
Not in total agreement with all of it, but some intresting stuff....
I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the
Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What
else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."
And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.
I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those
monsters.
But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people
of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.
Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated,
suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying
these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban. We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to
the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off
from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.
New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan,
only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only
be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time
So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is
to go in therewith ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral
qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan
to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.
And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements.
It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view.
He's probably wrong, in the end the west would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?
Tamim Ansary
I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the
Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What
else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."
And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.
I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those
monsters.
But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people
of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.
Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated,
suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying
these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban. We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to
the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off
from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.
New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan,
only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only
be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time
So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is
to go in therewith ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral
qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan
to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.
And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements.
It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view.
He's probably wrong, in the end the west would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?
Tamim Ansary
An open letter to these terrorists:
Well, you hit the World Trade Center, but you missed America. You hit the Pentagon, but you missed America. You used helpless American bodies, to take out other American bodies, but like a poor marksman, you STILL missed
America.
Why? Because of something you guys will never understand. America isn't about a building or two, not about financial centers, not about military centers, America isn't about a place, America isn't even about a bunch of
bodies. America is about an IDEA. An idea, that you can go someplace where you can earn as much as you can figure out how to, live for the most part, like you envisioned living, and pursue Happiness. (No guarantees that you'll reach it, but you can sure try!)
Go ahead and whine your terrorist whine, and chant your terrorist litany: "If you cannot see my point, then feel my pain." This concept is alien to Americans. We live in a country where we don't have to see your point. But you're free to have one. We don't have to listen to your speech. But you're
free to say one. Don't know where you got the strange idea that everyone has to agree with you. We don't agree with each other in this country, almost as a matter of pride. We're a collection of guys that don't agree, called
States. We united our individual states to protect ourselves from tyranny in the world. Another idea, we made up on the spot. You CAN make it up as you go, when it's your country. If you're free enough.
Yeah, we're fat, sloppy, easygoing goofs most of the time. That's an unfortunate image to project to the world, but it comes of feeling free and easy about the world you live in. It's unfortunate too, because people start
to forget that when you attack Americans, they tend to fight like a cornered badger. The first we knew of the War of 1812, was when England burned Washington D.C. to the ground. Didn't turn out like England thought it was going to, and it's not going to turn out like you think, either. Sorry, but
you're not the first bully on our shores, just the most recent.
No Marquis of Queensbury rules for Americans, either. We were the FIRST and so far, only country in the world to use nuclear weapons in anger. Horrific idea, nowadays? News for you bucko, it was back then too, but we used it anyway. Only had two of them in the whole world and we used 'em both. Grandpa Jones worked on the Manhattan Project. Told me once, that right up until they threw the switch, the physicists were still arguing over whether the Uranium alone would fission, or whether it would start a fissioning chain reaction that would eat everything. But they threw the switch anyway, because we had a War to win. Does that tell you something about American Resolve?
So who just declared War on us? It would be nice to point to some real estate, like the good old days. Unfortunately, we're probably at war with random camps, in far-flung places. Who think they're safe. Just like the
Barbary Pirates did, IIRC. Better start sleeping with one eye open.
There's a spirit that tends to take over people who come to this country, looking for opportunity, looking for liberty, looking for freedom. Even if they misuse it. The Marielistas that Castro emptied out of his prisons, were overjoyed to find out how much freedom there was. First thing they did when they hit our shores, was run out and buy guns. The ones that didn't end up dead, ended up in prisons. It was a big PITA then (especially in south Florida), but you're only the newest PITA, not the first.
You guys seem to be incapable of understanding that we don't live in America, America lives in US! American Spirit is what it's called. And killing a few thousand of us, or a few million of us, won't change it. Most of the time, it's a pretty happy-go-lucky kind of Spirit. Until we're
crossed in a cowardly manner, then it becomes an entirely different kind of Spirit.
Wait until you see what we do with that Spirit, this time.
Sleep tight, if you can. We're coming.
*I am no longer afraid of storms,
For I am learning to sail my own ship.*
Louisa May Alcott
[This message has been edited by Nitania (edited 09-18-2001).]
Well, you hit the World Trade Center, but you missed America. You hit the Pentagon, but you missed America. You used helpless American bodies, to take out other American bodies, but like a poor marksman, you STILL missed
America.
Why? Because of something you guys will never understand. America isn't about a building or two, not about financial centers, not about military centers, America isn't about a place, America isn't even about a bunch of
bodies. America is about an IDEA. An idea, that you can go someplace where you can earn as much as you can figure out how to, live for the most part, like you envisioned living, and pursue Happiness. (No guarantees that you'll reach it, but you can sure try!)
Go ahead and whine your terrorist whine, and chant your terrorist litany: "If you cannot see my point, then feel my pain." This concept is alien to Americans. We live in a country where we don't have to see your point. But you're free to have one. We don't have to listen to your speech. But you're
free to say one. Don't know where you got the strange idea that everyone has to agree with you. We don't agree with each other in this country, almost as a matter of pride. We're a collection of guys that don't agree, called
States. We united our individual states to protect ourselves from tyranny in the world. Another idea, we made up on the spot. You CAN make it up as you go, when it's your country. If you're free enough.
Yeah, we're fat, sloppy, easygoing goofs most of the time. That's an unfortunate image to project to the world, but it comes of feeling free and easy about the world you live in. It's unfortunate too, because people start
to forget that when you attack Americans, they tend to fight like a cornered badger. The first we knew of the War of 1812, was when England burned Washington D.C. to the ground. Didn't turn out like England thought it was going to, and it's not going to turn out like you think, either. Sorry, but
you're not the first bully on our shores, just the most recent.
No Marquis of Queensbury rules for Americans, either. We were the FIRST and so far, only country in the world to use nuclear weapons in anger. Horrific idea, nowadays? News for you bucko, it was back then too, but we used it anyway. Only had two of them in the whole world and we used 'em both. Grandpa Jones worked on the Manhattan Project. Told me once, that right up until they threw the switch, the physicists were still arguing over whether the Uranium alone would fission, or whether it would start a fissioning chain reaction that would eat everything. But they threw the switch anyway, because we had a War to win. Does that tell you something about American Resolve?
So who just declared War on us? It would be nice to point to some real estate, like the good old days. Unfortunately, we're probably at war with random camps, in far-flung places. Who think they're safe. Just like the
Barbary Pirates did, IIRC. Better start sleeping with one eye open.
There's a spirit that tends to take over people who come to this country, looking for opportunity, looking for liberty, looking for freedom. Even if they misuse it. The Marielistas that Castro emptied out of his prisons, were overjoyed to find out how much freedom there was. First thing they did when they hit our shores, was run out and buy guns. The ones that didn't end up dead, ended up in prisons. It was a big PITA then (especially in south Florida), but you're only the newest PITA, not the first.
You guys seem to be incapable of understanding that we don't live in America, America lives in US! American Spirit is what it's called. And killing a few thousand of us, or a few million of us, won't change it. Most of the time, it's a pretty happy-go-lucky kind of Spirit. Until we're
crossed in a cowardly manner, then it becomes an entirely different kind of Spirit.
Wait until you see what we do with that Spirit, this time.
Sleep tight, if you can. We're coming.
*I am no longer afraid of storms,
For I am learning to sail my own ship.*
Louisa May Alcott
[This message has been edited by Nitania (edited 09-18-2001).]
http://www.msnbc.com/news/634264.asp
Pretty decent, the last paragraph really hits home on those folks.
Pretty decent, the last paragraph really hits home on those folks.
I read in the newspaper today that more attacks are believed to be coming. I'm not trying to startle or rouse fear in anyone, but I'm very, very upset by this news.
I'm also stating this from memory as I do not have the newspaper in front of me anymore but below is what the article said:
-
A fax from the Al-Qaida to the United States said that more attacks are coming and that any places americans and jews are, are potential targets.
-
This angers me so much. What the fuck do these people know about me or my family or the fucking hardships I've gone through in my life. What do they know about the day-in and day-out pressures of trying to keep a decent-paying job so I can raise my son so that he may have a good life.
It's time for them to go. If this does become a full-scale, all out war...I don't think selective service will even be necessary because if they call i'm on the next plane to go kill those motherfuckers.
Wobb
(sorry about the language kids, Daddy's pissed)
I'm also stating this from memory as I do not have the newspaper in front of me anymore but below is what the article said:
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A fax from the Al-Qaida to the United States said that more attacks are coming and that any places americans and jews are, are potential targets.
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This angers me so much. What the fuck do these people know about me or my family or the fucking hardships I've gone through in my life. What do they know about the day-in and day-out pressures of trying to keep a decent-paying job so I can raise my son so that he may have a good life.
It's time for them to go. If this does become a full-scale, all out war...I don't think selective service will even be necessary because if they call i'm on the next plane to go kill those motherfuckers.
Wobb
(sorry about the language kids, Daddy's pissed)
I don't think this will turn into World War III. It may be a war. There may be many casualties and much suffering, but we have the right goals and stance - Islam is not our enemy, only a select group of sadly misguided people are the problem.
If Bin Laden's goal is to unite what he considers to be 'his people' against the west, he has failed. He and the Taliban have been singled out as the culprits, and he will pay, and the Taliban will either turn him over or also suffer.
Even Iran, with whom we've had very poor relations, and who refuses to join the coalition because of that, still is cooperating with intelligence and still states that they 'are not with the terrorists'.
Abue - I sincerly hope and believe that it will not come to use of WMD. Conventional warfare is much more precise (as much as warfare can be). This situation doesn't call for nuclear weapons. As many have posted, what is needed is the capture or death of Bin Laden, and the overthrow of the Taliban, which does not represent the people of Afghanistan or their interests.
If Bin Laden cannot be turned over or ferreted out, and the Taliban continues its current stance, my guess is that precise military strikes will be attempted. I doubt that the Taliban can be destroyed in this manner, but perhaps it could enable the people of Afghanistan to rise up and take control of their own destiny. It is possible that Afghanistan could end up somewhat like Iraq as well, which would be unfortunate.
Vadian
If Bin Laden's goal is to unite what he considers to be 'his people' against the west, he has failed. He and the Taliban have been singled out as the culprits, and he will pay, and the Taliban will either turn him over or also suffer.
Even Iran, with whom we've had very poor relations, and who refuses to join the coalition because of that, still is cooperating with intelligence and still states that they 'are not with the terrorists'.
Abue - I sincerly hope and believe that it will not come to use of WMD. Conventional warfare is much more precise (as much as warfare can be). This situation doesn't call for nuclear weapons. As many have posted, what is needed is the capture or death of Bin Laden, and the overthrow of the Taliban, which does not represent the people of Afghanistan or their interests.
If Bin Laden cannot be turned over or ferreted out, and the Taliban continues its current stance, my guess is that precise military strikes will be attempted. I doubt that the Taliban can be destroyed in this manner, but perhaps it could enable the people of Afghanistan to rise up and take control of their own destiny. It is possible that Afghanistan could end up somewhat like Iraq as well, which would be unfortunate.
Vadian
1. Threats by the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, or any other group associated with them are most likely meant to stir our rage. The only way for them to truly succeed is for us to blindly take action against either the Afghani people or Islam in general.
2. That chickenshit maneuver with knives on the planes will *never* work in this country again. You'd best believe that anyone who tries that on an American plane at this point will die trying, whether or not the passengers survive.
3. If it were to come down to a large-scale war the US is ready, willing and able to fight whatever battles are necessary. Any belief on the part of any nation/group in the world to the contrary is wrong-headed and quite likely fatal.
2. That chickenshit maneuver with knives on the planes will *never* work in this country again. You'd best believe that anyone who tries that on an American plane at this point will die trying, whether or not the passengers survive.
3. If it were to come down to a large-scale war the US is ready, willing and able to fight whatever battles are necessary. Any belief on the part of any nation/group in the world to the contrary is wrong-headed and quite likely fatal.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xyd:
<B> Quite likely? What are you, a security consultant for the FBI when you're not mudding? Yes there were incidents at some airports yesterday but I have not heard it definitively stated that your theory would have been the case. Perhaps yes, perhaps no. My theory which was echoed by a congressman on CNN this morning is that we're chasing them and we really don't know where they are going next. How many are there still in the US? Do they have a virus waiting to be dropped into your water supply? The best airport security on the planet -- no, no, even a nation without air travel! -- could not have stopped the Oklahoma bombing. That same nation could not have stopped the first attack on the WTC either. That same nation isn't prepared for a biobomb anywhere in its borders.
Yes, I agree that we need increased sirport security but what about all the illegal aliens still walking around oun US soil?! What about legal citizens still here that may turn out be like our friend McVeigh? THAT is our most immediate threat. Want airport security? That's easy. Fighting this enemy is not.
.xyd</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Missed this post when it happened.
They were apparently taught how to fly an airplane at flight schools in Florida, that is true. No evidence of other training in this country is readily apparent. And it's the nature of the US to allow people in this country to learn how to do things like fly a plane. Nothing really wrong with that.
But if we had simply allowed the planes to continue taking off, without first shutting down the entire air transit system, and then watching *very* closely for any maneuvering, we would have left ourselves open to a repeat of the previous events.
If it was actually an easy thing to get a biological or chemical weapon into our water supply, what the *hell* would make you think they'd choose to down a few airplanes into buildings? Why wait? Osama sure as hell wouldn't have.
<B> Quite likely? What are you, a security consultant for the FBI when you're not mudding? Yes there were incidents at some airports yesterday but I have not heard it definitively stated that your theory would have been the case. Perhaps yes, perhaps no. My theory which was echoed by a congressman on CNN this morning is that we're chasing them and we really don't know where they are going next. How many are there still in the US? Do they have a virus waiting to be dropped into your water supply? The best airport security on the planet -- no, no, even a nation without air travel! -- could not have stopped the Oklahoma bombing. That same nation could not have stopped the first attack on the WTC either. That same nation isn't prepared for a biobomb anywhere in its borders.
Yes, I agree that we need increased sirport security but what about all the illegal aliens still walking around oun US soil?! What about legal citizens still here that may turn out be like our friend McVeigh? THAT is our most immediate threat. Want airport security? That's easy. Fighting this enemy is not.
.xyd</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Missed this post when it happened.
They were apparently taught how to fly an airplane at flight schools in Florida, that is true. No evidence of other training in this country is readily apparent. And it's the nature of the US to allow people in this country to learn how to do things like fly a plane. Nothing really wrong with that.
But if we had simply allowed the planes to continue taking off, without first shutting down the entire air transit system, and then watching *very* closely for any maneuvering, we would have left ourselves open to a repeat of the previous events.
If it was actually an easy thing to get a biological or chemical weapon into our water supply, what the *hell* would make you think they'd choose to down a few airplanes into buildings? Why wait? Osama sure as hell wouldn't have.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kiloppile:
<B> If it was actually an easy thing to get a biological or chemical weapon into our water supply, what the *hell* would make you think they'd choose to down a few airplanes into buildings? Why wait? Osama sure as hell wouldn't have.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's easy. If you want to create a spectacle and have it viewed by the world, do you choose A) poison the water supply and let people in perhaps geographically dispersed areas die slowly, or B) create sensational, massive destruction of the very symbols that define America, freedom and the world economy knowing that cameras will flock to the scene to broadcast the event as it unfolds?
Why wait? Osama is a very patient man and a slow, well-formulated steady plan wins victories. Seeing thousands die in thw WTC incident is much more demoralizing than reading about some people that died from bad water.
<B> If it was actually an easy thing to get a biological or chemical weapon into our water supply, what the *hell* would make you think they'd choose to down a few airplanes into buildings? Why wait? Osama sure as hell wouldn't have.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's easy. If you want to create a spectacle and have it viewed by the world, do you choose A) poison the water supply and let people in perhaps geographically dispersed areas die slowly, or B) create sensational, massive destruction of the very symbols that define America, freedom and the world economy knowing that cameras will flock to the scene to broadcast the event as it unfolds?
Why wait? Osama is a very patient man and a slow, well-formulated steady plan wins victories. Seeing thousands die in thw WTC incident is much more demoralizing than reading about some people that died from bad water.
I don't think it would be a "few people who died from bad water." The chemical and biological weapons are very, very nasty... and if pumped into the new york city water supply would probably take out the _entire_ city. Even people like me who only drink bottled water would die while taking a shower or washing our hands... and it wouldn't be pretty either, even some of the older chemical weapons tend to melt your skin off.
I saw this on CNN.
1st: Last year the Americans gave 177 million dollars in foodstuff aid to Afghanistan last year. This was due to a drought and being unable to feed their people. This is now being confiscated by the gov't to feed their army.
Ouch!
2nd: They said that Afghanistan was the leading or one of the leading producers of Opium and Heroin last year. They said that the money from this financed the Taliban.
Yuck!
Conclusion:
The U.S. aided the drug trade that is killing and destroying people worldwide. The Afghan gov't would rather sell drugs than feed their people. Would they not had suffered a drought and starving people if some of that land went to foodstuff crops instead of Opium?
Just my 5 cents
1st: Last year the Americans gave 177 million dollars in foodstuff aid to Afghanistan last year. This was due to a drought and being unable to feed their people. This is now being confiscated by the gov't to feed their army.
Ouch!
2nd: They said that Afghanistan was the leading or one of the leading producers of Opium and Heroin last year. They said that the money from this financed the Taliban.
Yuck!
Conclusion:
The U.S. aided the drug trade that is killing and destroying people worldwide. The Afghan gov't would rather sell drugs than feed their people. Would they not had suffered a drought and starving people if some of that land went to foodstuff crops instead of Opium?
Just my 5 cents
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xyd:
<B> That's easy. If you want to create a spectacle and have it viewed by the world, do you choose A) poison the water supply and let people in perhaps geographically dispersed areas die slowly, or B) create sensational, massive destruction of the very symbols that define America, freedom and the world economy knowing that cameras will flock to the scene to broadcast the event as it unfolds?
Why wait? Osama is a very patient man and a slow, well-formulated steady plan wins victories. Seeing</B> thousands die in thw WTC incident is much more demoralizing than reading about some people that died from bad water.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It wouldn't be a few people, or a few hundred people, or even a few thousand people. If you dropped something into the water supply of a major metropolitan area in the US it would be a horrendous body count.
And the news services would cover it continuously, likely more so than the WTC. You'd have lots of *bodies* of people to photograph, which they would.
[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 09-28-2001).]
<B> That's easy. If you want to create a spectacle and have it viewed by the world, do you choose A) poison the water supply and let people in perhaps geographically dispersed areas die slowly, or B) create sensational, massive destruction of the very symbols that define America, freedom and the world economy knowing that cameras will flock to the scene to broadcast the event as it unfolds?
Why wait? Osama is a very patient man and a slow, well-formulated steady plan wins victories. Seeing</B> thousands die in thw WTC incident is much more demoralizing than reading about some people that died from bad water.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It wouldn't be a few people, or a few hundred people, or even a few thousand people. If you dropped something into the water supply of a major metropolitan area in the US it would be a horrendous body count.
And the news services would cover it continuously, likely more so than the WTC. You'd have lots of *bodies* of people to photograph, which they would.
[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 09-28-2001).]
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101011001-175979,00.html
A Time article I found linked from the CNN website. It tries to explain briefly why the US is being attacked.
Vadian
A Time article I found linked from the CNN website. It tries to explain briefly why the US is being attacked.
Vadian
there is also an email sent out from a fairly high ranking military officer. I saw it on a website yesterday but it isn't there anymore. Anyone have that?
And for a different angle:
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/05/rec.attacks.comicstrips.ap/index.html
And for a different angle:
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/05/rec.attacks.comicstrips.ap/index.html
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