Another article

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
thruar
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Another article

Postby thruar » Sun Sep 30, 2001 8:52 am

Forgot abouthttp://mithrilhall.isyourtown.com?

Anyways new article up.



[This message has been edited by thruar (edited 09-30-2001).]
belleshel
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Postby belleshel » Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:25 pm

Huh?
So your suggestions aren't being immediately implemented now...so the muds going downhill?
I've seen a lot of good things, new zones being added, bug fixes, shevy working hard on balance, stuff needs to be worked on, but its getting there. Its a game, a free game, nothing more, the immortals work as hard as they can, and don't get paid for it.
Mud != life
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Postby Dalar » Sun Sep 30, 2001 6:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by belleshel:
<B>Huh?
So your suggestions aren't being immediately implemented now...so the muds going downhill?
I've seen a lot of good things, new zones being added, bug fixes, shevy working hard on balance, stuff needs to be worked on, but its getting there.
Belle</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

always the one to put him down aren't you Belle?
new zones, bug fixes, those are great but that's WAY off topic. folur isn't suggesting new zones or fix this bug, he is suggesting changes for balance. the amount of suggestions he has probably given > the amount of times u put him down everytime he posts + the amount u whine about our group.
folur has given so much from alpha all the way to now. can you say the same?
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Postby belleshel » Sun Sep 30, 2001 6:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B> always the one to put him down aren't you Belle?
new zones, bug fixes, those are great but that's WAY off topic. folur isn't suggesting new zones or fix this bug, he is suggesting changes for balance. the amount of suggestions he has probably given > the amount of times u put him down everytime he posts + the amount u whine about our group.
folur has given so much from alpha all the way to now. can you say the same?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When have I ever put him down??? thought so.
On the other hand I have given plenty of suggestions towards the game and balance, I don't cry if they don't get implemented right away. When have I ever whined about your group? thought so. You can take your head out of folurs ass now.
He's given suggestions, many people have given suggestions, his don't carry any extra weight,
Belle
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Postby Jegzed » Sun Sep 30, 2001 7:25 pm

feh, I hate defending goodies..

1) Folur isn't complaining that his opinions are not implemented.. He is complaining that they are ignored.

2) Folur's comments about balance and such have to 99% been good and through-through. I haven't seen anyone besides him with so many correct and valid balancing suggestions.

/Jegzed
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Postby thruar » Sun Sep 30, 2001 7:29 pm

No my ideas not being implemented immediately does not have anything to do with it bellehshel. Read the article again, sure it can be a little frustrating at times that I may have felt my ideas to balance the MUD is not being done for at times months. I also know that whatever I would say would also draw attention and attitudes/flames from others is something I accept and move on. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Ultimately it's the attitude the MUD community including myself which I admit. Just read the BBS the past two months. Myself and the group do not post much on this BBS because it will just become a flame BBS with nothing constructive to say. If you read the article again maybe everyone would need to take a look at themselves including myself and make this a better environment for everyone.
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Postby Lyt » Sun Sep 30, 2001 9:22 pm

I read your article on your website a couple of times just to make sure that I got it right. To me it sounds like you are mad that they are not immediately implementing your ideas. You make it sound like your ideas are in some way more valid than the hundreds and thousands that are being put up here on the BBS. Everyone has opinions and the immorts hear a lot of them. They have a strategy they are working on for the mud and they do not need to listen to, nor do they need to implement the things we tell them we want. Some they do and some they don't, but no where did they state that they were going to listen to everything we throw at them.

Take this as a flame if you want, but it is just the feeling I got reading your article. You came across very haughty and elite. How dare they not drop everything they are doing and obey what you want.

As far as Dalar and Belleshel go, I can't recall seeing Belleshel flame Thruar at all here on the BBS. He is generally a nice guy and doesn't flame too many people. But for you to think that Thruar's ideas are automatically better than those others have is a false assumption. I also question his (as well as the rest of our) contribution to the game. If you are not a zone writer or coder, then like me your contribution to this mud is zero. You play for you, and I play for me, but don't imply that by your group's mere presence here on the mud somehow enhances the rest of us. Get real.

Lyt
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Postby rylan » Sun Sep 30, 2001 9:54 pm

Bleh.. dumb browser screwed up my post/edit.


[This message has been edited by rylan (edited 10-01-2001).]
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Postby Kuurg » Mon Oct 01, 2001 12:24 am

The fact that he (folur) is passionate about the MUD and improving it, is enough for me to like the guy. I haven't played a goodie in over 9 years, but I would group with the guy in a second if he's at all in the mud like he is in his posts.

I don't agree with all of his suggested improvements (and hopefully the gods don't either because I *NEVER* want to see an additional mem time tacked on to my mems again!! Image but he definitely has a head for nosing out issues. He is so dead-on with some of his analysis that it makes me wonder why it didn't occur to other people as well.

I disagree, however, with his appraisal of the current situation. It's great that he had a good working relationship with miax and uthgar, but different strokes for different folks. It's certainly not a reason to castigate the other imms. Who wouldn't like to see miax have more time to work on the mud? Really though, this mud is the best thing happening right now. If we hit a slow spot as far as balancing, grin and bear it. I still see things being implemented every week, which makes me one happy ogre.

I hope the gods only read a portion of what gets written on the BBS. There's just too much bullshit. We should start a fund to keep a therapist on call for any imm who's just fed up with the player base.




------------------
·Kuurg·
Guest

Postby Guest » Mon Oct 01, 2001 12:47 am

I feel if the MUD needs to survive the attitudes as a whole community must change, the attitudes of the gods must change, Miax must be active again. There is only so much I can bare in trying so hard to work with the staff of this MUD only to feel the fustration that went on for more than two months now. I am stepping down in regards with the balance of the MUD until the staff gets their act together.

Speaking only for myself, the fact that the *first* thing you told me the first time I tried to talk to you was that it was useless to talk to someone like me... because I couldn't even *understand* what you mean by balance... leads me to think that the problem here is not with the staff.

Completely independantly of any of your feedback (I for one never even heard about emails on the subject... guess I'm just outta the loop), I started looking at the defensive skill code. When I found a glaring bug (it really was a bug peeps, that's all I can say) I fixed it. When I attempted to talk to you a week or so later, we had the aforementioned conversation.

Incidentally, couching a statement like that with "I don't mean to be insulting, but..." doesn't really work. I have no beef with you, but I also have no way to get any valid feedback from you, mostly because *you* told me to take a flying leap.

Somehow, you say that you are "trying so hard to work with the staff of this MUD," but again, speaking only for myself, I must say that's a tremendous stretch. In at least this one instance, you did the exact opposite.

I don't wish to get in a protracted conversation about this. I merely felt it was important to point out that one statement in your post and my experience related to it.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Oct 01, 2001 1:53 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lyt:
<B>As far as Dalar and Belleshel go, I can't recall seeing Belleshel flame Thruar at all here on the BBS. He is generally a nice guy and doesn't flame too many people. But for you to think that Thruar's ideas are automatically better than those others have is a false assumption. I also question his (as well as the rest of our) contribution to the game. If you are not a zone writer or coder, then like me your contribution to this mud is zero. You play for you, and I play for me, but don't imply that by your group's mere presence here on the mud somehow enhances the rest of us. Get real.
Lyt</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did not say Belle posted any flames on BBS about us, i've heard some on the MUD itself. I did not say anything about my grou's mere presence here ont he mud enhancing yours. I will admit i was wrong in comparing belle's contribution with anyone elses (sorry belle).
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Postby Lyt » Mon Oct 01, 2001 2:48 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B> the amount of suggestions he has probably given > the amount of times u put him down everytime he posts + the amount u whine about our group.
folur has given so much from alpha all the way to now. can you say the same?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I misenterpreted this statement, then I too apologize Dalar. But my response was based on how it reads to me.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Oct 01, 2001 3:43 am

Oh lord.

The closed alpha had what.. 50? 75? 100? players participating in it. We ALL poured sweat and blood into the balance of this mud. We ALL had emails go unanswered, suggestions brushed off, ideas disappear into the nebulous void that is the realm of coders.

Folur, what you lack is perspective. You are but one person on a mud of hundreds. Your group is but 15 fish in the sea. You lead a small, elitist group of top notch players around and rarely interact with the real playerbase of the mud.

If you want to impose a 15 second flat mem time on any queue containing a 5th level spell or higher, you need to consider how that affects EVERYONE and not just your invasion groups. Level 21, Human Cleric, 100 wis. My ONE heal takes 25 seconds to mem, and to do any decent experience I usually end up cycling it. You're saying you'd like my mem time to increase to 40? How am I going to keep a tank alive when I fail 30% of my heals, and have to spend 40 seconds to mem them back? How can a group my level operate when both the cleric and the enchanter get three spells every two minutes?

I don't know you, bro. I've never grouped with you and never talked to you. Maybe you're the nicest guy on the mud. What I do know is that I got called out of retirement by a bunch of midlevels who were tired of NEVER getting to go anywhere because certain leaders don't invite people outside their cliques. I see Sojourn as a fractured community, with two people running around trying to be Toddrick while everyone else struggles for scraps.

That's why I'm here. I'm in it for the little guy. I'm here to make sure that the giants don't trample the little guy.

- Ragorn
Wanderlust Excelsium FOREVER
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Postby thruar » Mon Oct 01, 2001 5:53 am

I agree with the things you said and glad you are back to help the mid level players who does not have direction.

The way we do zones is basically continuous battle without ever meming till the main mobs. Not doing a full mem that is why I thought zones were too easy because of the mem time. It does affect players doing exp like you mentioned at level 21, maybe put a 15 sec cap mem time starting 7th circle wouldn't hurt at that level or some way to increase mem time a little longer at the higher circle spells.

I just want to point out that yes, I was a tad frustrated with the lack of enthusiasm the gods were showing after what seemed to be a lot of unanswered e-mail about my suggestions or any acknowledgements that I've sent it. As for Iyactu it was my mistake to have shown no interested to giving you feedback and I apologize. I think people misunderstood the whole point of the article after all. The point again is all about attitude of the MUD community, but people seem to talk about how my suggestions are not immediately implemented as the point of the whole article(it was just an example of my frustration leading to the article about attitude with the players who play gods as well as the attitudes of the players including myself).


[This message has been edited by thruar (edited 10-01-2001).]
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Postby gordex » Mon Oct 01, 2001 7:08 am

I have to agree that the attitudes of the mud are poor and unfortunately, this post might add fuel to that fire. I joined Folur and the gang because I wanted to get things done, and I tried with people NOT from his group for 2 MONTHS, to no avail. The top invoker, enchanter, and one other (can't remember who) quit or could not play for one reason or another and I gave up hope. Waiting at 3w for hours on end for people to log on and zone is not my idea of fun.

When I decided to join Folur's group, I got a cold shoulder from everyone I used to group with. I hadn't even decided to join him yet, and told him I would give it a week and see how it went. No longer did I get tells from them. No longer did people say 'Hey, wassup?', not even once! I was mostly concerned with how YOU ALL would feel. The only person who sent me a tell was Razabble, knowing I started grouping with Folur and company after the one week period. To think that I cared about your feelings, and for most of you to throw it back in my face? To you I give big, hearty FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU with a 10 ft. pitchfork! You are being elitest just as much as Folur, yet curse his name for doing the same. I don't agree with everything he does, and I let him know it when it happens. Well now that I know that some of you are pots calling the kettle black, it makes me sad and aggrevated. I have since talked with 2-3 people from the group I used to run with, and they have no ill feelings, yet still don't say 'hi', except for Nitania. This leads me to believe that the elitest attitude is still in full force by mostly EVERYONE, and is not going to go away.

The advent of guilds will help, since there will be some sense of unity with those who haven't been playing for years, and aren't already in a clique.

Welcome to the 13th grade. Image

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Postby Corth » Mon Oct 01, 2001 7:46 am

Bah..

Lets not make this into a forum on who likes and dislikes folur mmkay? Thats really 13th gradish. Folur & Cpmpany do their zones and enjoy hanging out with each other. Same thing with every other "core group" on the mud. I think everyone involved would like to see a tad less competition. And I bet that a lot of people agree with the basic statement that folur made.. that a nicer attitude would make this community a more fun place to be.

"As much as i hate agreeing with..."

Corth
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Mon Oct 01, 2001 9:14 am

I definately agree corth. But...

Folur carries around a superior attitude, that he sets the motion of the game. That type of attitude is as detrimental as any other ive seen on this board. When people think they are the one thats in charge, the one that makes the muds wheels turn, its just too much. From reading folur's article, and reading his other articles, I know this is how he thinks of himself. Show instances where this isnt the case, because i can show you many instances where it is the case.

Serious delusions of grandeur...

[This message has been edited by Galok Icewolf (edited 10-01-2001).]
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Postby Sarell » Mon Oct 01, 2001 1:50 pm

*HUGS* for everyone heh.

Just like to put in my 2 cents.

I must say I can see where Folur's frustration can arise.

With regards to the progression of the mud, I think it is best to keep an open mind, and realise that the gods are ina sense "playing" aswell. For a developer on this mud enjoyment lies not only in balancing and keeping the world running smooth but also in inventing and re-inventing aspects of the mud to make it more fun for _everyone_.

On the note of negative attitudes towards the group lead by Folur, I must say in many instances I have been pretty disgusted. There is a negative attidude directed towards them from many people who have never met them, and I think most of it arises as people see them as snubbing the rest of the mud. I have grouped with Folur on a number of occasion and I think the tight knit group of REALLY GOOD FRIENDS they have is fantastic! I me and my aussie buddies had similar times to log on each day and play together. Grouping in this manner is fantastic, adventure time can be cut in half and only due to the removal of the excess twibbling and confusing over whats going on, cos you know eachother. Besides, I reiterate, most folk in the group are really close friends, so grouping with them consistently will be more enjoyable. Do they hurt anyone else? I think not.

Folur, Dartan, Ladorn, Nokie, Kalthanan, Larok, primarily have and do help me out, and chat to me on a regular basis. I am not a member of thier core group however (I certainly wouldn't have the time anyhow :P). Honestly, they are good folk, and have a great time when they play...lay off?

Just to clear up, I am not havinga go at anyone posting here, or any particular person/point, just the comments that seem to flow around me on the paths of toril about how poo these folk are, in an unfounded way.

Anyhow, end rant, have a fabulous day!

Sarell/Ladak/etc aka Patrick
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Postby Gort » Mon Oct 01, 2001 2:43 pm

Folur,

I just read your articles, and have talked with you a few times on the mud. Some of your points I like, some I would rather see addressed in other ways. For the area damage on spells, I believe they have recently made some adjustments. On the mem times, I for one feel that I've "paid my dues" to have shorter mem times. The hours I've "wasted" just sitting there repraying spells is sick. I understand you're trying to make zones more challenging, perhaps if they were to do anything w/ mem times it would only be zone related. This would keep casters from falling asleep at their keyboards in the normal realms, but add that challenge in zones.

I have no clue if its possible to code this, or if it would be a headache, but shy of that, I'd just make the zones more challenging. Having only done limited zones on S2, and a couple on S3 my perspective is limited, but I'm approaching the point where I'll be hopefully asked to join in more forays to zones.

Agree or disagree, I do appreciate well thought out suggestions and posts, there are several people who tend to make them, and I believe you are one.

I look foward to talking w/ you and Belle, and anyone else about how to improve our time and enjoyment on S3. I also appreciate any helpful suggestions on how to maximize my efficiency/utility as a shaman.


Thank you,

Toplack
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Postby Jurdex » Mon Oct 01, 2001 6:50 pm

Gordex, that post was a complete joke.

Instead of getting into specifics or whatever, mull this quote over, I think it has relevance to what apparently bothered you.

"Expect not loyalty from those to whom you show none."

As for Folur's article, I found it amusing. Hardly anyone gets replied to on the bbs, but they still post ideas and bugs and the like to make the mud they love better. So why expect a reply to an e-mail?

It would seem, from your article, that feedback from the Gods is your primary goal, not necessarily the actual usage or discarding of your ideas. You're displeased with how your ideas have just been ignored.

Well, welcome to the life of every other sojourn player who posts their thoughts on the bbs instead of e-mailing. Image

Dornax
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Postby gordex » Wed Oct 03, 2001 2:21 am

Dornax,

Its funny that I didn't mention your name, yet you felt the need to say something. Truth hurts?
Anyways, I NEVER said I would stop grouping with you guys, but some of you guys made it abundantly clear you wouldn't group with me.
The post was 2 fold. First to let you know how I feel and to shed some light on the real situation. Secondly, to let you know that the attitude you showed me is part of the problem which some people have been describing, yet most of you deny it.

Gordex - Gordex Travel Agency

[This message has been edited by Gordex (edited 10-02-2001).]
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Postby Jurdex » Wed Oct 03, 2001 2:29 am

I felt no need to reply to anything. I replied because you're full of crap. You're a self-serving "me" player and I don't really give a damn what you do or who you do it with.

That is why I gave you the cold shoulder.

Was that clear enough for you?

And speaking of attitude, whining to others to do your spells for you, then joining others who will do it faster must be the best attitude around, because you embody it.

Truth hurts. wink.

Dornax
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Postby gordex » Wed Oct 03, 2001 3:54 am

"You're a self-serving "me" player and I don't really give a damn what you do or who you do it with.
That is why I gave you the cold shoulder."

Oxymoron? If you didn't give a damn, then why the cold shoulder. You should think it through. LOL

"And speaking of attitude, whining to others to do your spells for you, then joining others who will do it faster "

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. 'Lets get ress, lets get ress'. And WHO was welling your group around to help out with that? That's right, me. I even waited for Verarb to get well before leaving your group. No, wait, you name your group "The Clique". That should be some indication as to your true colors. Being a cleric doesn't make you a saint.

Gordex - Gordex Travel Agency
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Postby Ladorn » Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:12 am

Hello all. I'd just like to add my 2 cents to this thread. Even though Folur discourages us to post, because no matter what we write people will never change their opinion towards us, I just had to speak up. First off, I'm not looking for everyone to agree with us or love us, but honestly I personally wish people would leave Folur alone. I sympathize for him. Why do people dislike him and see our group as elitists? Think about it. We are a very close knit group of friends. We have each others' phone numbers and communicate via icq and e-mail all the time. We call each other by a first name basis too. We're just good friends trying to have a good time doing something we all love to do. Occasionally one of our friends won't be on. So we pick up a missing class. Why would we ask for people to group when we are full or we have the classes we need? We are hitter/tank heavy. We do group with a wide variety of healers and mage types. Why do people call us elitists because we don't group with everyone? It's quite fun knowing everyone in the group and asking them about their day and their RL jobs, relationships, etc... As far as grouping with other people, I do it all the time, but my rule is, if Folur needs me or comes on, I will have to go to aid him. We treat each other like family. I'm there for him when he needs me. If he's doing nothing I have no problem grouping with other people. In fact I try to help anyone that I can help. And speaking from purely a mud'ers perspective now. It really rocks when doing zones. We all know each others' capibilities and tendecies. Seriously we are bs'ing all the time in gsay's and we hardly need to remind people to do their jobs because we are constantly doing it. And one last thing, I've asked other groups to group before and they denied me because they said I was with Folur. This was maybe a month or so ago when I first joined up with Folur for maybe 2 weeks. I find that sort of disheartening when the people I asked don't even know me. I really think this whole "exclusive grouping" attitude goes on in other groups as well.

-Ladorn Silverlake
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Postby Jurdex » Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:43 am

That is such bullshit. Image I never complained about ress. I never even said much about it.
If you're going to make accusations about me, at least make them either somewhat 1) factual or 2) believable.


As far as "The Clique" goes.. It has been what I call my groups from the moment the code was added to name groups. Why? I find it to be hilarious. Sort of a satire on our mud society and all the hoopla about elitism and elitists, etc.

If you feel the need to offer up another collective "fuck you" to us, feel free to do so on the mud or in email. The bbs isn't a suitable place to discuss such things.

Anyway, whatever attitude you guys refer to as bringing down the mud is pretty nonexistant from where I sit. This mud has survived almost violent wars amongst its playerbase and come out strong. I don't see what all the commotion is about. This is a very docile playerbase compared to the past.

Dornax
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Postby Dlur » Wed Oct 03, 2001 5:00 am

I tend towards the belief that Thruar is a little bit better at understanding balance than the average mudder. In many ways I liken him to Kurz/Lothair in his ability to look at a situation, break it down to a fundamental level and see the right and wrong in that situation. This is what allows people like Kurz and Thruar to be excellent leaders in many ways and it is also what lets them see things in a(from my perspective) very unbiased light.
Although he is one of my friends also please don't compare Folur to Todd. Todd was all about charisma and guile and remembering how other folks did stuff. Thruar, Kurz, Tavon, Daeron, and Jerthal from CS and folks like Modu, Jaeb, and a few others from EA have all done their leading through tactical strategy. The ability to pick apart a zone or function of the mud and use it against the mud in an overwhelming way. When the player who has the 'boots of strategy' is becomming enough to come forward and share with the community their ability to tear appart a function of the MUD I say be grateful. I know on the place I now reside I'm more than grateful when any of these folks come by and find something we hadn't at first thought of.
I remember from my Soj1 days that many people had a beef with Kurz for some reason or another and all of us that followed his lead in that era as well. All these people fundamentally wish to do is smite stuff, hang out with their friends, help the balance, and most importantly, I think, be left to have fun in their own way.

Dlur/Ruld/Motog/Wharog/Ghimok/Ect.
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Postby gordex » Wed Oct 03, 2001 5:12 am

Dornax,

Your obviously bitter about something. I'd be happy to talk over ICQ/email, whatever.

Gordex - Gordex Travel Agency
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Postby Zrax » Wed Oct 03, 2001 2:02 pm

Ladorn,

Good post overall, one thing i took issue with was that you seemed upset because people excluded you from other groups because you were part of an exclusive group. This seems like a wanting cake and eating it too type scenario. I definantly have no problem with the idea of a close knit group that does everything together, and have been very impressed with the class that folur and your group carries themselves overall *poke corth* However if you esxclude others by forming an exclusive group the end result will be you yourself being excluded by others, and i think they are absolutly within their rights to do so.
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Postby belleshel » Wed Oct 03, 2001 3:34 pm

Actually we used to have no problems grouping with folurites until they started leaving zone groups mid-zone when folur logged on.
Personally I have no problem with folur's group, they have a good time, thats the goal of the game, all the best to them. But when asked to help with something the response of 'Can't don't want to give more power to any group that can compete with ours'...Our asked if they had done a certain zone and given the response 'Go find out'. They had plenty to do with creating this atmosphere which they are now complaining about.
Silly stuff,
Belle
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Postby Silverast Rubicyn » Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:22 pm

Can't we all just get along?
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Postby Sylvos » Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:41 pm

So many bloody politics... I'd love to get out zoning but it's gotta be possible without this slew of mudslinging, bitterness and total rivalry. Friendly competition should exist, but not this total snarling match.

Folur 'n crew - my hats off to you for being able to so frequently 'turn the other cheek' and not responding. It takes courage to be able to do that.

As for elitism, speaking from someone who definately isn't with any of the 'in' crowds - the day you start asking complete strangers to help you with a task and don't ask those whom you know well... then I guess I can understand the arguments raised against Folur 'n crew. Till then - enjoy playing with your friends, do your job well and when someone has a need for you, go for it.

And above all else - have fun.

Sylvos
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Postby Malacar » Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:52 pm

...And people wonder some of my reasons for not playing these days.

It affected my personality, it affected my grouping habits, it affected my friendships.

I hate politics.

[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 10-03-2001).]
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Postby rylan » Wed Oct 03, 2001 5:28 pm

Aye.. I basically try to avoid/ignore all of the politics.

I play to have fun and explore stuff. And it happens to usually be with the same general bunch of people because I have a good time with them all. If I'm not grouped, I'll gladly group up (and have) with other people. At the very least I'll try to send tells to my other friends and respond to questions if I catch it through the spam. Image

[This message has been edited by rylan (edited 10-03-2001).]
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Oct 03, 2001 5:34 pm

I hate this whole thread.

The first time someone leaves my zone group in favor of another leader is the last time I ever take them anywhere. Period. It's not "clique hate", it's dislike for people who show no respect for anyone but their own little group.

You don't want to help me quest for spells? Great! I'll remember that next time I'm running Jot.

Your exp group full? Hey, no sweat! What a concidence, tomorrow mine will be too!

See how this works? I doubt anyone hates you just because you group with Folur. But y'know, the first tell I got after I came back as a cleric was from someone who I used to group with consistantly last wipe, who was leaving because his little group of friends had joined someone's clique and didn't invite him to group anymore. So y'know maybe.. just MAYBE.. it's not always them.

- Ragorn
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Postby Jurdex » Wed Oct 03, 2001 6:18 pm

I don't like the thread either.

For all of those singing Folur's praise for "not saying anything" ...

Have you looked at who started the entire thread with the article slamming every God save Miax and discrediting the mud for going down the tubes, etc..

If its a spade, call it a spade.

By the way, how exactly can your group be a tight-knit circle of close friends when you've constantly tried to get people I group with (including myself several times) to join you..?

Dornax
Jurdex

[This message has been edited by Jurdex (edited 10-03-2001).]
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Postby Mplor » Wed Oct 03, 2001 7:02 pm

Ah factionalism. I think it's good for the MUD in some ways. I'll just mention one thing: For me, the core unit of the MUD is the Group. Guilds/Associations/Cliques can and do cross group-lines, and can greatly enhance some aspects of the game, but they should not be allowed to supercede the importance of the fundamental unit of player organization: the Group. I'll take good or fun players anywhere (or, I guess I have to use past tense, for now...), and I don't care who their other friends are. But the moment someone places the active group they are in second to any other in-game non-emergency consideration, that's when that person goes off my invitation list. I may still like them as a person, but I won't group them.

It has nothing to do with exclusivity and everything to do with a value choice. Even if I were in a guild and 7 of my 8 current group members were in that same guild, that lone non-guilded guy in my group would get treated exactly the same as the other 7 for the duration of the group, including the same chance at the spiffy loot.

Mp
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Postby Sylvos » Wed Oct 03, 2001 7:19 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jurdex:
<B>
For all of those singing Folur's praise for "not saying anything" ...


[This message has been edited by Jurdex (edited 10-03-2001).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I know Dornax - hence my qualifier so frequently turning the other cheek - it's not always but given the abuse one reads about them, it's a wonder they don't say more.

Sylvos
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Postby Kalthanan » Wed Oct 03, 2001 7:52 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sylvos:
<B>
I know Dornax - hence my qualifier so frequently turning the other cheek - it's not always but given the abuse one reads about them, it's a wonder they don't say more.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dunno bout the rest of the guys, but the way I see it, why waste time with all the drama and soap opera shit on the BBS when I could be wasting time hunting rares and chatting with my friends in a group? Image

When it comes down to it, posting some harsh flame or whipping up some snappy comeback to someone's accusation ain't as fun as being the first one to figure out the quest for that cloa..umm yeah *whistle*
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Postby Koric » Wed Oct 03, 2001 8:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kalthanan:
<B> Dunno bout the rest of the guys, but the way I see it, why waste time with all the drama and soap opera shit on the BBS when I could be wasting time hunting rares and chatting with my friends in a group? Image

When it comes down to it, posting some harsh flame or whipping up some snappy comeback to someone's accusation ain't as fun as being the first one to figure out the quest for that cloa..umm yeah *whistle*</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Bah! Will you forget about the freakin cloak mang? You'll never figure it out!!

Koric mutters something into a cloak imprinted with nekked gurlies.
A naked girl now follows Koric.

Koric gives orders to his followers.
A naked girl tells you 'I know you want me!'
retark2
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Postby retark2 » Wed Oct 03, 2001 9:31 pm

ROFL!

Koric, I will trade you this nekked man cloak for that one! I know which you would prefer anyway Image
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Postby Tanolm » Wed Oct 03, 2001 10:38 pm

.

[This message has been edited by Tanolm (edited 10-03-2001).]
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Postby Tanolm » Wed Oct 03, 2001 10:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by retark2:
<B>ROFL!

Koric, I will trade you this nekked man cloak for that one! I know which you would prefer anyway Image</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Err how'd you get that naked man cloak in the first place??
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Postby moritheil » Fri Oct 05, 2001 7:26 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by belleshel:
<B>
Mud != life
Belle</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heretic!!!!

=P
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Postby taelin » Fri Oct 05, 2001 11:05 pm

Man where is Sok... oh wait Im too CS for him... haha god this whole thread makes me feel the gamet of emotion, from hysterics to depression and even a little anger and frustration.

We all have to freely admitt that the eventual success of any group comes down to teamwork. We know that teamwork gets better with practice and repetition. Familiarity increases chances of success. People don't exclude others because they intend harm or insult, at least not on a clean slate. Unfortunately, this leaves the excluded bitter.

I'm quite familiar with the FishingFountain Syndrome. Even so, bitterness that leads to striking at the successful just makes you look like the fool. Not all of those people got that way by getting the friendly invite. I know its not easy but you DO have the power to pull yourself up there with them.

My fear is that you see it impossible to succeed without riding someone elses wind. Trust me when I say that no good leader was suddenly struck with insight into the game. They weren't divinely appointed from the masses in a time of need. For every bitter person who strikes out there are probably 5-10 malcontent people being excluded as well, I suggest that you make some social contact with the other people in town. Teach what you DO know, you may learn to lead and solve your problem from the inside.
Guest

Postby Guest » Sun Oct 07, 2001 7:15 am

Hi.

It is good to see that our society has returned to the normal for mudding populations. Image

The bitterness, politics, and rivalries come and go like storms across the great planes - they are endless, unrelenting, and unavoidable. They are part of any society, be it a village, your company local "group", your church, school, and every other place. To see them again here means that the society has grown in the right direction, it's "healthy" in a difficult to understand way.

There's a few reasons why I'm chiming in here. I got long winded because I feel strongly about what I have to say..

First and foremost, I must publically state that I greatly disagree with Folur's interpretation of how stagnant the mud is in my absense. Cyric, Shevarash, and the entire staff have done outstanding in my absense, they are highly experienced and donate huge amounts of their own time to the mud. Its the very Reason why we have 3 forgers and a number of Very Good senior staff. The mud can run without me, or any of them, for an extended time because we cover for one another. It is certainly true that a particular god's absense will stall the agenda's they were working on, but we all work towards the common goal in the advancement of the mud. The reports I am getting are all positive, the staff is always working, and new things are continuously going in at a rate roughly quadruple what they did in the era of Sojourn 2. So for this opinion, I gotta Ping Folur for accuracy of opinion and appreciation of what the rest of the staff is doing. I am one of the driving forces behind Sojourn 3, but by no means only one. I appreciate your opinion of my ability, and the effort that you make to help balance the world.

It is true that during the Alpha Folur was one of the mortals I listened to very closely. He has a keen mind and was able to grasp the big picture when we balanced the melee engine. I do not agree with all of his ideas, but his insight was usually good. He and all of the others who were dedicated at the time helped to test and shape the balance of the mud we now live on. He has a right to be proud of his participation, he like many others have left their mark on Sojourn 3 and their participation helped to make our mud great again. All of those who participated in the Alpha closely with us are so honored, and Should be proud of that.

But.. It would be a mistake for any player to assume or expect a high level of active balance to continue on a public mud. It is one of the greatest and weakest traits of free muds; Its frustrating because problems often dont get fixed for a long time, but its unique that Anyone can have input and impact on the core of the game (unlike most off the shelf games). What everyone should realize is that we have real lives, real responsibilities, and many things that take us away from the mud sometimes for months, and yet allows us huge chunks of time to work on it for other months. It is a balance every staff member strikes with their real lives, and it can change overnight and unexpectedly. It has been that way for forever, from the beginning, and will be so until the end. All players should anticipate it, expect it, and not let themselves be dragged down by it. Its a part of our exsistance and our society, the leaders are on loan from RL and can/will spare whatever time they can here.

As for the balance, its a basic fact that no muds balance can or will ever be perfect. There are thousands of factors that influence the balance of the game, and only a limited number of people working on it. What I can say with Great Pride is that Sojourn 3 has the best balance of any mud I have ever worked on. I almost never hear negative comments about it, its still shocks me to this day. Sure theres plenty wrong with S3, but theres alot more right than wrong.

What Everyone should know if they do not already, is that mud balance - like the balance of Every long-term on-line society-based game - happens most rapidly in the beginning, during the alpha. Thats when the mud had the full devotion of the entire staff, with developers taking huge amounts of time to do their best to make the game fun. Drastic changes could happen alot without a real playerbase, live testing could be done, and massive progress was made. I think those who participated were certainly drunk with the power they had to affact real change quickly. But now, in the Beta and even moreso when we reach Production, change comes slowly and methodically. With an active player base and a strong commitment to preserving that playerbase forever, we as the staff cannot and would never make huge/massive changes quickly. The balance is what it is. Changes will come, fixes will come, but more slowly. This happens both because the staff doesn't have the kind of time we had during the Alpha, and because it would be very unhealthy to make those kinds of changes now with an active, dedicated player base. Don't expect rapid changes, expect them slowly - and know that we have discussed, debated, and thought it all through before making them. I can see why it would frustrate many who saw us sprinting in the alpha, now forced to walk with us instead, but its a reality we all must live with. Instead of getting pissed about it, enjoy the mud for what it is. Enjoy the work we have all put into it, play the game and live the lives of mudders that we have labored so hard to create a world for. Sojourn's wine glass can be half empty or half full for you all, the choice of how you view it it is up to you.

And just so it is Clearly known, there has Never been and Never will be a suggestion that has gone unheard. We may not agree, we certainly do not have time to reply to them all, you can rest assured that more than 1, perhaps many, staff members read the feedback found here and on the mud. Understanding the reality of the mud we live on, and considering what I have said above, no one should be dissapointed if their suggestions don't make it in, or aren't responded to. Now if your all willing to pay me $49.95 to play Sojourn 3, I will certainly hire a formal support staff, development group, and respond to every post of feedback as well as implement alot of it. Any takers? Didn't think so. Your working with a volunteer staff, and everyone needs to remember that. But know well that we do read what you say. Even missing Miax found his way to the bottom of this thread.. Image If you miss a particular staff member's absense, rest assured they will be back.

As for Elitism.. It happens, on all muds. I both praise Folur and every other elite leader and their groups For thier elitism and their ability to conqer the mud. Cliques are a part of human culture, just as is the resentment of those not allowed in. At the same time I Praise Ragorn and everyone left aside for sticking with it, for thumbing their noses at clickes, and trying like hell to make it through. My advice to that crowd (as I was a member of many times as well as being elitist many times) is Not to judge how much fun you think your having based on what They do. The socializing is the same for everyone, and thats half the game. For the rest, fountain-fishing is no fun, but nor should anyone sit around the fountian for long before grabbing whomever is there (even if they are lobies - GASP), and heading out for adventure. Maybe you help newbies level, maybe you make new friends, maybe you explore. I never sat at the fountain for long waiting for that magic group - and nor shoud you. Thats just my opinion, but I greatly appreciate the help that those Not in the clickes give the less experienced, your breeding leaders for the future. I accept both elitests and non, thats how life works everywhere. I suggest everyone spend Less time Bitching about it and more time playing the game in their own ways. If elites piss you off, do as you feel is right about them. If non-elites constantly bash you elites, Ignore them. To both, do as you will, its a free world - I just caution everyone of spending all their time bitching and letting it get to them. Your here to have fun, remember?

As for me, I will be back - perhaps I am back now. I'm making a major direcitonal change in my career at the end of this year that will allow me to be here more often by leaving management for a better, higher ranking principle engineering position. That means no more employees to deal with, a million less headaches, and hopefully alot more free time. Even so, the stresses from my job will be so much less that I may just be in the mood to mud a whole lot more. Right now I still have those headaches, and I devote almost all of my time to my newborn son and my family, which is where my priorities belong. When my job chills out, my evenings will be free, and you can expect to see more of me again. Until then, for those who actually miss having me around, I both Pity you ( Image) and ask you to be patient until my job change takes place. I expect that around the first of the year, but the change is already starting, so as I said I may start coming back more now. We'll see.

To close, please listen to what I have said, and stop demonizing eachother. This is Sojourn, this is a great mud that will last a very long time. All of you lifers will have to live in the same world for years, you'll be alot happier if your attacking monsters instead of eachother. I'm not asking you to get along, I'm asking you to remember why you came here..

Miax. o_o



[This message has been edited by Miax (edited 10-07-2001).]
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Sun Oct 07, 2001 12:02 pm

I'll pay you $49.99 a month Image

This place rules
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Postby moritheil » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:07 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>I'll pay you $49.99 a month Image

This place rules</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Woot. That's the spirit!

Cherzra almost makes me want to go evil.

[now, if say, knet were to show up again...]
Abue
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Postby Abue » Mon Oct 08, 2001 12:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>with two people running around trying to be Toddrick while everyone else struggles for scraps.

That's why I'm here. I'm in it for the little guy. I'm here to make sure that the giants don't trample the little guy.

- Ragorn
Wanderlust Excelsium FOREVER</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am the little guy struggling for scraps. Image

An increase in my spell times would be umm... horrific. I already can make a kill then go afk to clean the house while I mem. heeh. 100 int.
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Postby Wobb » Mon Oct 08, 2001 8:36 pm

Another thing to remember ladies and gents:

The mud population will fluctuate. As people regain their status (or surpass it) from previous incarnations of the mud (e.g. I just wanna get my char back to 50 and get that spanky eq item I had again!)--some will only be on sparingly.

Not everyone is going to group with everybody, so whether your elite trying to hide from non-elites or a non-elite looking to get into a group...remember that as time passes people will come and go.

I say do what makes you happy. If you aren't happy playing, take a break. If you aren't happy zoning all the time, start trying to figure out some quests. If you aren't happy with the pace of the mud, go play another one for a while, or another game, Sojourn will be here when you return.

Wobb
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Postby Ruhr » Mon Oct 08, 2001 8:45 pm

I've only been back for a week and I can see, contrary to Kris' analysis, that the social dynamic of Sojourn3 is pretty unhealthy.

What is different from the past? Primarily the 15 person group limit restriction.

While seemingly innocuous, this policy has had one transparent consequence: The creation of severely entrenched factions which are unsurprisingly in the neighborhood of 15 players.

From what I've gleaned so far, here are the primary factions:

(1) Folur/Thruar's Faction
(2) Dornax's "the Clique"
(3) Drav's faction
(4) Fendoren's faction
(5) Touk's Faction


That's a total of 75 players +/- 25 camp followers.

Why do the leaders of these factions feel the need to restrict membership to 15? Because of the GROUP SIZE LIMIT.

Where does this leave late comers like myself? Wondering if it's worth leveling a character as things are totally locked up as it stands.

This is NOT the way it used to be.

While I'm not naive enough to believe that any correction will occur, especially when the proprietor is no longer minding the store, I do feel that my time could be spent better elsewhere and I suspect that many other players will come to the same conclusion.

[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 10-08-2001).]

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