Complaining - it is not that bad.

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Jurdex
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Complaining - it is not that bad.

Postby Jurdex » Fri Oct 26, 2001 9:51 am

I look at the bbs..

All I see are complaints. Whining. Bitching. Moaning. Sarcasm. Insults.

I don't get it.

What is so wrong with the mud?

It isn't drastically different.

There have been changes. Change is often a good thing. Wouldn't you rather have change - good or bad - rather than no change at all? I would. Why? Because it shows that there is something being done.

This is a free game. This is a free game that is here because of some very unselfish people that poured a lot of time, effort and money into making it one of the best free games/muds ever.

You have a chance to interact one-on-one with the people who mold the very object of your enjoyment, and all I see is bitterness and unhappiness.

It started with zones being too easy to this class isn't finished to this person has it better to this race needs to be better to this class isn't worth playing cuz you f'd it up to zones are too hard now.. need I go on?

This game gives to you what YOU put into it. If you attempt to enjoy the game for what it is - a game - I promise you that you will find enjoyment in it. Rangers, Antis, Paladins, Rogues and the like were utterly useless mere wipes ago. Now, they are a steady diet in zoning groups. Evils have come into their own to the point that they no longer need to rely on OC'd goodies to round out their groups. New and amazing zones are added with amazing new quests, stories and loot ripe for the taking. An emphasis on courtesy to the players was instituted and the Gods now listen. They don't bitch about players. They don't even do globals anymore because some bitched about it! Guilds were brought in and made a lot easier to access as well as much more user friendly to manage. It is encouraged to help newbies by giving them their own helper channel and new areas to exp. Countless suggestions for zones, spells, and items have been added because players added their two cents in a constructive way. The gods listen.

And all we see is complaints.

We're all guilty of it to some extent. I know I have been at times. Conjs are still weak and bards suck. Some bugs are still there and some additions haven't happened. However, isn't that to be expected on a free game where people offer up their own time, effort and money whilst asking for nothing in return? I tend to think so.

Maybe we're just spoiled with this new incarnation of Sojourn. Maybe we're just bitter that it wasn't like it used to be. Betcha 10 bucks that if there was a BBS years ago when moonwell was made prime-only that you'd see complaints similar to today. "The end of the druid class as we know it, you made our only spell suck!" would be the subject topic. That didn't happen. Sojourn adapted and survived and thrived even today. It will now too. Because of its players and its staff. If you really aren't having fun, maybe you should ask yourself is it the game or is it you? What is stopping you from having fun? Maybe figure out what brought you there in the first place will help. All I know is I am glad for these changes. Whether it is good or bad - at least someone is making an effort to make it fun. Shouldn't we as well?

Dornax
Jurdex
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Postby Anaram » Fri Oct 26, 2001 10:03 am

Thanks Dorn for writing this where I did not have the brass to do so...

-Anaram In total agreement...
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Postby Jhorr » Fri Oct 26, 2001 10:34 am

Well put Dornax. I couldn't agree more.
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Postby Lubar » Fri Oct 26, 2001 10:49 am

Very true words. Hopefully some will learn from them...
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Postby kiryan » Fri Oct 26, 2001 11:06 am

I been bitchy lately, Ill fix that. I appreciate the game, I dont think I complain that the game sucks. I think there are imbalances and problems (why can mounted combat be used indoors?), and I think its a good thing to discuss them and try to point them out and or persuade each other to adopt our opinions.

I think what the boards lack is moderation and input from immortals. Right now its a free for all. I'm thinking that there raelly isn't a good solution because even if we get more input and response from administration, the changes wont go in fast.

The BBS is running at the speed of thought, and the mud administration is doing what they can in their spare time. Ponder that.

Everquest shut down their boards because it stopped producing constructive things and only created animosity. I think while the tone of our posts has bordered on angry lately, I haven't seen very many of what I would consider flames lately. SO we got angry constructive remarks heh, not ideal but better than flames.
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Postby cherzra » Fri Oct 26, 2001 11:21 am

While the majority of posts can be seen as complaints, I think this is a very healthy thing. The BBS is somewhere you can spill your heart about everything in the game, be it good or bad. Because people are content with the good, most posts are about the things they dislike or see as wrong. This is only natural.

Secondly, on the previous incarnations of the mud, while I wouldn't go so far as to say there was censorship, there was certainly a lot less freedom of speech. Here, everyone can say what they want, within certain limits. This is also good.

Players complain about issues they see as unbalanced, changes they perceive as slow, and a plethora of other things. This however doesn't mean they see the mud as stupid, the gods as stupid, and everyone else who replies to their post with a different opinion as stupid. It means they like the game, have their own opinion on how things could be better, and care enough to post it.

I think the BBS is very healthy. The mud is too, and the freedom of voicing your thoughts contributes greatly to this as the mud is much more relaxed and fun than before - all gripes over classes and skill aside.


The only thing I would like to see more, is some god feedback. For example on the paladin vs. warrior thread - it would help so very, very much if an admin just posted there on why the staff thinks paladins should get all the things they get, and why they think this doesn't do injustice to warriors. Similarly the bard and conjurer thread. A little more feedback would go a long way, as it is now we are ranting and complaining and I guess a bit frustrated because we'd love to know 'why' and 'when' while we have no clues.

In short - this is good. The mud is alive and people care, we'd (I'd) just like a tiny bit more explanations on some things. Nothing but kudos otherwise, this place is great.

Cherzra.
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Oct 26, 2001 11:32 am

My haiku for Sojourn.

Sojourn is stagnant.
So many wonderous things
Promised long ago.

I want a guild hall.
I want to trade with a cart.
I want new bard songs.

Where are 'Mentalists?
What happened to the campaign?
It sounded like fun Image

Bards are still broken.
Orcs: Kind of disappointing.
Chanters are like Bards.

I miss ranged combat.
I want to play with my bow.
It's been seven months.

Conjurers are dead.
Astonishingly, Lyt's class
Is weaker than mine.

Blur, Armor, Stone Skin.
Dragonscales, Globe, Displacement.
No shieldblock... I died.

Shamans cure disease.
We need another reason
To NOT go zoning?

Tanras was a Lich.
Now he's an Illusionist.
Liches die to wraiths.

I think you should give
Anti-Paladins to Orcs.
Cherzra's mouth might close? Image

I will miss Sojourn.
I had a lot of fun here.
Gormal prefers men.

- Ragorn Forestwalk
Ranger from the days of olde.
Taekwin on Duris.
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Fri Oct 26, 2001 11:35 am

Considering that the game is in beta, it's awesome. There are things that need to be addressed, and it isnt as much whining and complaining, of more of well "I see something wrong here". The gods can't be everywhere and see everything. The BBS allows people who see things wrong or RIGHT, and post on that. Making it abundantly clear to all that read a simple suggestion "this might be needing some looking into".

I love the mud, and I've spent a good portion of my time on it. I intend to give feedback every time i see something that has the slightest posibility of being wrong. Why? Because I love the game, I want to see it reach its full potential, and one of the few ways I can help is by mentioning potential flaws.

It may be seen as complaining and whining by some, and often times it gets that way near the end of a long heated post, but 95% of the posts I've seen starts with clear thoughtful insight and suggestions.

I agree with cherzra, most of the time even a simple "Paladins are better because we want them to be" would end the discussion LONG before it became a true rant, and arguement.

2 heads are better then 1. 500 heads are better then 2. Thats why they have beta testers.
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Postby rylan » Fri Oct 26, 2001 12:29 pm

Good post dorn, especially considering it cames from a smelly dorf :P
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Postby Vipplin » Fri Oct 26, 2001 2:26 pm

Indeed. Hear, hear! Have a mug of ale on me, Dornax.

I am all for people posting what they think will make the mud better in the long run for everyone. Many people need to try harder to keep things on the constructive level rather than just being negative.

Hooray for another pro-sojourn thread! Image

Vadian
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Oct 26, 2001 2:26 pm

I am so much in agreement with you Dornax. I was going to write another novel on the subject, but it's so much better coming from a name people recognize. I read through the BBS and just get disgusted with the way people act toward what the staff has done for us. If somebody is going to take their precious time and expend their hard effort on my behalf without asking anything out of me, I don't see any reason why I should feel the need to criticize them, sometimes in very ugly fashion, for not doing it fast enough, or just the way I might have dreamed it would be.

For those of you who want to try to paint some of this ugliness to make it look like "constructive criticism," I'm sorry, I think you're deluded. "I'm sick of this shit..." "Won't this suck ass..." "You really fucked it up this time..." These aren't constructive criticisms, no matter how you want to try to defend them. I'm not trying to call attention to anybody in particular, but these are some of the most glaring, that people WILL be able to remember and place in posts. They're disrespectful and rude, especially considering that what they're complaining about was given freely, by people who have given up their spare time to give it to us.

There are a great number of posts that ARE constructive criticisms, but way, way too many that are just pettiness on display. Every time I read through the BBS I wonder how in the world the staff does it. I would have told most of you people where to put your complaints long ago, instead of being able to keep at it, slowly but surely, knowing that the fact that I was at least trying was just going to bring me more abuse.

Ragorn, I respect you a great deal, always have, but I think one verse in your haiku sums up the attitudes of a lot of the players completely in the first two words of each line...

I want.
I want.
I want.

Everybody needs to chill. There's no reason to be so uptight all the time about what we think we seem to deserve. Limited resources can accomplish a lot, given time and patience. That's exactly what we need to have. People have played on Sojourn for years and years. Why? Because it's an absolutely amazing world full of detail and wonder. Because it's a lovingly crafted home for many of us, the place we can go to escape our worries of the day. Great things don't happen overnight, or even in a year. Sojourn is an ever-evolving work, and for us to assume we know what the staff is going through and that they're just not putting enough effort into it on our behalves is just wrong.

Try to remember that we're here to have fun. Too many of us have gotten way too wrapped up in the petty things to remember the fun.

Go get a massage.
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Postby Mplor » Fri Oct 26, 2001 5:31 pm

Like Ashiwi, I think justifying rudeness in the name of constructive criticism is foolish. Constructive argument can certainly refine the truth through rational thinking . . . but when we lace our posts with (vitriolic) emotion instead of clear-headed thought, frankly we damage our message more than we help it. When I see someone rudely complain about a perceived flaw in the game, my immediate gut reaction is to disagree with them, and aside from that I get a low opinion of them personally because they are obviously ruled by their baser instincts. It's productive to be argumentative sometimes, absolutely, but always be nice to the people you want to get things from, or risk being branded a fool and not getting your way besides.

Besides, in the end Sojourn's greatness is intact, and it isn't about features.
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Oct 26, 2001 5:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
<B>Ragorn, I respect you a great deal, always have, but I think one verse in your haiku sums up the attitudes of a lot of the players completely in the first two words of each line...

I want.
I want.
I want.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I don't think the state of wanting something is negative in itself, it's how people go about expressing that desire that could be negative. For me, all I really wanted from the mud is that which we've all been expecting for some time now... changes that are always tomorrow, next week, when <coder> gets back from <place>.

I've noticed that most of my latest posts are bitter and negative, and yesterday I determined that it's because I'm finally disillusioned with the mud. This is how I chose to express it, rather than a Wobb-like THIS SUCKS post. I wrote what was on my mind in a fairly humorous manner, quietly handed out the equipment on Ragorn that was worth handing out, and went in search of other things.

I've enjoyed my time here immensely. I enjoyed roleplaying in the Sojourn atmosphere for five solid years, most of it positive. I really only enjoyed playing the upper-level hack and slash game for a year, last wipe. But that's enough for me. I've quit before, but it's always been because of players. This time, I've decided the code is going in a direction I disagree with. The game I would like to play is simply not Sojourn in its current incarnation, so I have picked up and moved on. I don't begrudge the staff for moving the game away from what's fun for me, because it's their vision and their game. I wish them the best of luck.

This has changed into what I did not want it to be, another goodbye post. So, meh.

Warm regards,
- Joe
izarek
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Postby izarek » Fri Oct 26, 2001 6:04 pm

There has been alot of complaining lately. There has also been alot of feeback lately. Ive notice that alot of ppl like to sit back and call any criticisms whining. I'm not saying that's what Dornax is doing here and this response isnt directed towards him.

The mud's in beta and the staff has been amazingly receptive to feedback. I for one have spent alot of my time, which could prolly be better spent doing RL stuff, thinking about the game and offering feedback and ideas. Yes, this sometimes comes out in the form of criticism. However, I do make an effort to add ideas or something to the pool of knowledge that the staff has (not that I've always been successful). This may not be the 'cool' thing to do, but I dont believe in being a lemming. I guess what I want is for ppl to differentiate between discussion or critique and whining that adds nothing. Its easier to sit back, looking cool, and call ppl whiners with all the yes-men chiming in.

Take a look at the BBS and its categories. Some of its for staff announcements. Some of its for general bullshitting. However, a large part of it (Gameplay discussion and Ideas) is for discussion. Why do ppl need to try to put down others, who may have genuine concerns or imput, to make themselves feel better or look cool? The staff is an intelligent, knowledgeable group of ppl and they will make the best decision in the end. However, it is our job to give them input.

An example: Dornax's thread on Revive

http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000681.html

Dornax says he thinks it's bad that corpses that fail ress cannot be revived. Ppl like the idea. It went in.

Another expample: Galok's thread on Tanks

http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000865.html

Galok posts his concerns about warrior tanking skills and some data to support this. He then suggests certain changes to warrior skills. The thread degenerates into squabbling about warrior vs. paladin tanking.

I'm sure many ppl would put the second thread in the 'complaining' category and post their displeasure on the topic, waving away the the other person's concerns as nothing. Why isn't it okay for ppl to submit ideas, debate over it, and let the staff decide whats best?

------------------
Izzy / Raev

************************
Rangers are the key to ultimate success. Try one out today!
************************

[This message has been edited by izarek (edited 10-26-2001).]
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Postby Zrax » Fri Oct 26, 2001 6:32 pm

thats a pretty bad example izzy since this is what truly transpired.


Dornax posted nice note about, God said ok good we will do it.

http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000681.html

Didnt happen

Player posts whinier post about it

http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000896.html

It gets changed.

Put alignment grouping restrictions back on paladins and all will be peachy.
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Postby izarek » Fri Oct 26, 2001 6:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
<B>thats a pretty bad example izzy since this is what truly transpired.


Dornax posted nice note about, God said ok good we will do it.

http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000681.html

Didnt happen

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*puzzle*

news 10/23/2001 Revive
- Corpses that fail resurrect can still be revived now.

*puzzle*
Zrax
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Postby Zrax » Fri Oct 26, 2001 6:56 pm

Read the posts, Dornax's post was on 8/14/2001

the Complain post was on 10/22/2001

it was changed because of this post and says so in the post by Cyric.
Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Oct 26, 2001 6:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
<B>thats a pretty bad example izzy since this is what truly transpired.


Dornax posted nice note about, God said ok good we will do it.

http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000681.html

Didnt happen

Player posts whinier post about it

http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000896.html

It gets changed.

Put alignment grouping restrictions back on paladins and all will be peachy.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, that's not what happened. Dornax posted, we agreed. We got busy, so unfortunately, it fell to the way side. Someone re-posted the suggestion. I remembered we wanted to do the change. Change was made. People whined, meanwhile the MUD stayed up for 20 hrs. MUD crashed/rebooted. Change went in.

On the BBS, the squeaky wheel does not necessarily get the greasing. Just as a general note (there are some exceptions), the whinier a post or thread gets, the more we ignore it. Calling us out demanding we reply doesn't work either.
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Postby Vylare » Fri Oct 26, 2001 7:20 pm

Sigh, Ragorn. I will miss you.
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Postby Vylare » Fri Oct 26, 2001 7:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mplor:
Besides, in the end Sojourn's greatness is intact, and it isn't about features.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree 100%.
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Postby Zrax » Fri Oct 26, 2001 7:34 pm

Ragorn quitting again!! Ill believe it when i see it, people who quit, do it quietly, people who want to see how badly people will miss them post they quit on the BBS, people with real self esteem problems do this about once per month.
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Postby Malacar » Fri Oct 26, 2001 8:03 pm

I knew I'd eventually be back when I quit.

That's the only reason I posted and kept posting I guess.

When I quit before on toril, I never posted, just told some peeps 'bye'. Same thing on Sojourn2.

I dunno that it's seeking attention in all cases like Zrax said, but it definitely applies to half at least.
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Postby Elseenas » Fri Oct 26, 2001 8:42 pm

Kia:
This is going to be something of a rant, and for that I appologize. Sojourn really is a great game and I appreciate all that the gods have done on Sojourn 3.

>Dornax posted, we agreed. We got busy, so
>unfortunately, it fell to the way side.

This wouldn't be a problem except that it ALWAYS happens and we have no feedback on that such is what happened.

Prefixing what I am going to say by stating that I really appreciate the work that D2 has done for rogues and the changes he has made in general, I'm going to pick on him for a moment.

The Disarm Command:
Date: 4/9
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000139.html
Will look into sometime this week.

Date: 6/14
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000375.html
Try and look at it this weekend.

Date: 6/27
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000478.html
States that it has been in the priority Q since 1/6/01 and that he will "try to bump up priority on it".

There has been nothing else on it from him, at least that I have seen. This is not unique to him and I don't mean to single him out, it just makes an example.

If you told me "we'll get around to it eventually, just ping us every so often to remind us" thats fair enough. What frusterates is seeing "it'll be in within x amount of time" 5 * x rolls around and nothing has even been mentioned as to whether it has been considered.

If you can't make a deadline no problem: most of us know what that is like. Just tell us that you cannot make it. I cannot count the number of times that archery would be "within the next week." When next week rolls around NOTHING is mentioned: not even a simple "due to circumstances out of our control..."

Its similar to what I said when discussing reboots. Don't say "reboot in five minutes" and then, without warning, say "rebooting now!" fifteen to twenty minutes later. The same applies here.

------------------

Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

[This message has been edited by Elseenas (edited 10-26-2001).]
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Postby Treladian » Fri Oct 26, 2001 9:02 pm

People tend to voice criticism more than positive feedback. Constructive criticism is very useful, especially since the mud is still very much in beta and good communication between testers and developers is critical in that stage of development. Unfortunately, some people view what most would view as constructive criticism as just whining and things tend to degrade from there. If we had a seperate for positive feedback that people felt motivated to post in, it would probably have a lot more message traffic than one for bringing up game issues.
Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Oct 26, 2001 9:08 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Elseenas:
<B>Kia:

[snipped]

Its similar to what I said when discussing reboots. Don't say "reboot in five minutes" and then, without warning, say "rebooting now!" fifteen to twenty minutes later. The same applies here.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This has been addressed numerous times in numerous places, but to once again explain:

This is actually an old practice dating back to even before my tenure began. The reason why reboots rarely ever occur on time is many fold, some involving the fact that when you announce "Reboot in 5 minutes" some hear "I have 5 minutes to get where I'm going to camp on equipment." This has also evolved into "I can drop link in 5 minutes and be back where I have camped on equipment." (don't diverge topics into "why don't you delay spawn equipment in every zone everywhere?" again, please. That dead horse has been kicked enough)

Not to mention when the first announcement is made, there are sometimes people in the middle of zones that we didn't notice. People in the middle of quests. People fighting long fights. People in precarious postitions that would take longer than the allotted few minutes. Add to that some last minute "oh, man, I forgot something let me fix that" and we don't want to spam the playerbase with a barrage of "Reboot 5 minutes" "No wait, reboot in 7 minutes" "OK, reboot now in 4 more minutes" "3 more minutes" etc.

Yes, the term "God Minutes" has become sort of a "*wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*" term, and yes, there should be a courtesy announcement other than "Reboot Now" (which has been addressed with the gods already). But will you see reboots happen consistantly in the time alloted? That's depending on the person who does the reboot. We all have our personalities.

[This message has been edited by Kiaransalee (edited 10-26-2001).]
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Postby Jegzed » Fri Oct 26, 2001 9:33 pm

People whine too much..

It's a free game, deal with it.
Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Oct 26, 2001 10:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Elseenas:
<B>If you told me "we'll get around to it eventually, just ping us every so often to remind us" thats fair enough. What frusterates is seeing "it'll be in within x amount of time" 5 * x rolls around and nothing has even been mentioned as to whether it has been considered.

If you can't make a deadline no problem: most of us know what that is like. Just tell us that you cannot make it. I cannot count the number of times that archery would be "within the next week." When next week rolls around NOTHING is mentioned: not even a simple "due to circumstances out of our control..."</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not a question of whether it has been considered; clearly, it has already been considered. It's a simply matter of fully intending to do something, and then getting sidetracked or whatever. In the end, this place isn't my job. If I can't make a deadline, I don't lose any sleep over it and assume that you will realize, when the deadline passes, and some time goes by and the change still isn't there, that I didn't make it. Is that unfair to players? Maybe. But my "work ethic" here is not one that allows me to say "uh oh, I'm not gonna make it, I better post and tell the players."

On a related note, I have been MUCH less motivated to do any sort of work for the MUD for some time. Partially it is RL things, partially it is lack of time, and partially it is lack of enthusiasm. And part of the lack of enthusiasm stems from the fact that my perception of the player base (and I admit that this may be a flawed perception) is that no matter what we do, some percentage - large in some cases, smaller in others - starts griping and whining and asking us how far up our butts our heads must have been when we thought such-and-such would be a good idea.

I don't mind constructive criticism. I deal with it on a regular basis, am quite receptive to it, even. But the tone of many posts on this BBS over the last month or two has strayed from constructive criticism to outright bitching, many with an attached sense of entitlement. Reading enough posts like that (and I should point out that the IDEAS behind some of those posts I agree with completely) will blunt anyone's enthusiasm for something that they do for fun. Because it stops being fun.

--D2

[This message has been edited by D2 (edited 10-26-2001).]
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Oct 27, 2001 12:41 am

"good communication between testers and developers is critical in that stage of development." - Treladian

The key word being "between." Right now what we mostly have is the players talking, and not knowing if the staff is even listening because they never post anything in response. Before this thread the last response we got from the imms was when Cyric said revive had been changed! I can't really remember anything before that even for a couple weeks.

Issues like paladin vs warrior tanking, the proliferation of necessary protective spells, elven hitpoints, half-elven superiority. (ok, so that last one's just my pet peeve Image ) have all come up and been bandied about by the players for several days without any immortal input on them. What wonders might a staff member simply saying "We did this because..." do? It might make us understand why things are as they are, and shut up about it.

Right now it seems like you are just trying to ignore is and hope we shut up (or go away.) But we are like two year olds, we will shout in your ear if we have to in order to get attention. (It's well known that as the number of people in a crowd goes up, the overall intelligence of the people goes down.)

D2 brings up the point that the more we whine the less you guys want to do anything for Sojourn. But the less you guys do the more likely we are to whine. It's called a vicious circle, and we are smack in the middle of it! Are we going to just stop whining? Possible, but I doubt it. Not many of us are Zen masters who can just take life (or game) as it comes. Are you guys just going to go into a coding frenzy? I doubt that even more! Image But some information sent our way from the staff could probably help to mollify us. If, for instance, I found out that there was some spanky human ranger only weapon out there that I just hadn't found yet, I might not be so jealous of those damned half elves. Image (No, not where it is or how to get it, just that it exists.)

Kia: No, I'm not trying to call you guys out or demand you start replying or anyting. Just consider that it might be beneficial for all parties...

D2: How can coding ever not be fun? Image Seriously... I don't think your perception is flawed. It's truly impossible to keep everyone happy. Some people just like to bitch for one thing. But when a large percentage begins to bitch, something is probably making them unhappy. Yes, in a perfect world we would all pick one representative who would post a thourough and polite note about the problem. But this is Earth... for every player capable of posting a well thought out essay on the problem there is one who has a vocabulary consisting of little more than insults. If it really bothers you that much... hrm... perhaps get some kind of PR imm. A guy who keeps up with what's going on in the BBS and reports to you guys 70% of players are complaining that warriors can't tank." Then tells us, "D2 is looking into warrior tanking." That way you never really see the insults, and still get the information about potential problems or oversights.

Sarvis
kaitos
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Postby kaitos » Sat Oct 27, 2001 1:16 am

I just wanted to say thank you to all the gods who spend their time making the MUD what it is.
There are certainly things that we all wish were different, but the constant bitching has gotten ridiculous, and driven me to the point where I maybe look at the BBS once a week, if that, because almost all the postings are nothing but complains with little or no positive feedback.
I hope the coders and immortals keep at it and keep giving us changes, wether only a few people agree with them or the entire mud.

-Kaitos
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Postby Nida » Sat Oct 27, 2001 2:42 am

I agree with Sarvis's last point-- a go-between would _really_ smooth things over. With no major coding pressures on top of his/her own RL problems, it would be easier for him/her to play both ends against the middle. And from my short time on the BBS, I've noticed that the most positive threads (including this one) are the ones with immortal feedback. We all realize you guys are normal people like the rest of us-- but there's still a little awe attached to your lofty positions. Hearing from you, even just once for every twenty player posts, is a big boost.

And whoever posted earlier about a separate positive feedback area (I'm too lazy to go look it up again ^_^ ), that's a great idea. I imagine it'd make things a lot easier on the imms to go look at some of those posts while they're trying to juggle warriors and paladins and elementalists in their heads.

This is my first mud, and it will be the standard by which all other muds I see are judged. No matter what the problems or difficulties may be here, I still doubt it'll be easy for me to find anyplace else that could possibly measure up. Sojourn rocks, and it's the gods' fault that it does. ^_^ Thanks, guys.

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"Enchanters may be the real stoners, but invokers are the biggest flamers."

-Nida
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Postby Mplor » Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:10 am

Sojourn's staff are motivated to work here by their love of the game. It doesnt take much thinking to understand that calling staff down and delivering otherwise-constructive criticism with a demanding tone will not tend to increase their pleasure at serving you. Do the math and consider whether your long-term enjoyment of this game might be better served by finding out if you can enjoy things the way they are instead. That's the true secret to enjoying Sojourn. If you find that you can't enjoy Sojourn as it is, then I daresay you'll learn to or you'll never really experience the best things Sojourn has to offer. This game has plenty of room for part-time players and players on the highway to burn-out, and everyone inbetween. I suggest we let ourselves enjoy it.

Mplor
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Postby Baikalisan » Sun Oct 28, 2001 7:18 pm

Im gonna have to agree with the ppl who have pointed out the fact that this is a free game and you either have to live with the changes or you can go...


Hell everybody whines, from the "Best" player in the game to the "Worst" player in the game..

I've learned to deal with it , you should too :P if you cant..see that little button over on the tower of your computer labled Power? push it :P:P
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Postby Dezzex » Sun Oct 28, 2001 7:33 pm

What..? Computer...off? Mud.. not.. on? *boggle*
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Postby Todrael » Sun Oct 28, 2001 11:36 pm

I used to write essays. I used to write constructive, non-offensive, non-sarcastic replies that I thought would help benefit myself and others. I did that for a long time. Occassionally I would get particularly emotional about something, and post, but most often it was concise, logical, intelligent reasoning that I tried to present with my arguments.

A couple days ago, I snapped. I was tired. I was fed up. I sent off a flurry of negative, sarcastic, unhappy posts. However, I also feel that all of them had a lot of truth in them. I just wasn't censoring myself at all. It's what I truly felt about this game and those in it. It was all really clear that night and the next morning.

I come here to have fun. I have repressed so many of my negative feelings just to provide an atmosphere that people would answer finally broke me down. See, I have to couch everything in flowery phrases and avoid anything negative or derogative to anyone or anything whenever I post. Otherwise I get flamed, I get ignored. Finally it dawned on me. I was still getting flamed. I was still getting ignored.

The gods have said that they aren't ignoring us. This thread proves it, no? Several have already posted. Our problem is that we receive little to no feedback on anything else.

My lich thread died out quickly. It wasn't enough to capture the attention of everyone around. But I've receieved many tells from many different people who read it, saying they agreed with my points. They weren't stated in the best possible fashion. I was angry. I was tired. I had written a 3 page report about those topics and sent it in to the gods, who were "thinking" about it for 5-6 weeks. I still don't know if anything will be changed.

I'm sick of debating things with other players. It doesn't help anything, to be honest. I don't want, I need. I need input from the gods as to what is bad/good/not doable. I need posts to the development board to tell me what's in the works, so I don't have to suggest it, or be frustrated about it for weeks, losing hope. I need the gods to stop downgrading everything that makes this game easier in any fashion, tearing away new possibilities and new thoughts. I need to have fun.

-Todrael, tired.
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Postby Mplor » Mon Oct 29, 2001 1:26 am

Man, you just dont get it. You're right that there are imbalances, but you are foolish for getting upset at the staff for not addressing them on your timetable. Most changes are made very deliberately here (read: slowly, sometimes over years), and btw some of us really like that. You'll be happier if you get it through your head that there will always be some classes that are better than others, no matter what changes the staff make.

What I see on these boards is some players that played the Toril/Soj2 uber-classes (warriors, liches, psionicists, invokers) complaining that they arent as uber as the newly-remodeled Soj3 uber-classes (paladins, antipaladins, shamans, rogues), or players who were never the uber-classes complaining that their class missed out on the Soj3 re-modeling and that they deserve to be uber too (bards, rangers). They may all be right, but that don't mean jack shit. There is no such thing as class balance. Balance is a pipe dream. Balance is like personal perfection: we strive for it even though it's impossible.

If your class ain't as powerful as the most uber class out there, make your case for improvements, then go play the game. It's a good idea to periodically remind the staff of your suggestions, at least until you get a 'No' answer. It's a bad idea to get impatient and then make demands of the staff.

If you start to get emotional about your character's small pipi, go take a walk. Outside. Take a girl to a haunted house and make sure yer right there for her to leap into your arms when the boogey-man jumps out. Go get lost in a corn field maze. Buy a bag of halloween candy, then unwrap every one and lick them before re-wrapping them and setting them out for trick-or-treaters. Whatever makes you happy. Just get some perspective.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 29, 2001 2:08 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mplor:
<B>...or players who were never the uber-classes complaining that their class missed out on the Soj3 re-modeling and that they deserve to be uber too (bards, rangers).
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey now! We've been pretty quiet lately... except for the occasional obligatory "when is archery coming in?" (We know now, or at least have a rough estimate.. so probably won't even be hearing that anymore.)

Sarvis
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Postby Elseenas » Mon Oct 29, 2001 6:10 am

This isn't about one class being better or worse than another, this isn't about whether people should leave the MUD, this is about group psychology and receiving feedback on what is going on.

If I post a list of problems I've had with a class and is get some positive responses, SOME kind of feedback keeps us calm and rational.

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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
Todrael
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Postby Todrael » Mon Oct 29, 2001 6:32 am

Mplor, I'd like to correct you about what you see. I'm a lich whoopty do. I was never a lich before. I was never 'uber' before. I was never even an underdog before. I was never anything of any consequence before. I don't 'miss' the 'before time' or whatever you want to call it. I don't look back and say I want to major paralyze everything with every spell I cast, or rule the mud with a tight fist, being the one class every other envies. I just want things to make sense, and to know wtf is going on.

Excuse me for not being polite and nice and doing everything it takes, including not speaking my own mind, just so that I can make you feel good about the feedback I'm providing for one goddamn week of my life. Obviously I should frolic in fields of happy flowers and all the problems will go away. *snickers*

-Todrael, tired.
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Postby kiryan » Mon Oct 29, 2001 10:20 am

I think the gods need a vocal/creative director. someone who posts often from a position of authority regarding class issues, ect... someone who doesnt make promises, but makes it their responsibility to commuicate with players and even put them in their place when they are rude and provocative.

Forums need feedback and active moderation if they are to be constructive. lets not go the way of everquest forums, shut down because all people did was whine.

Coding is fun, but gets old. Customer service gets old too; most people working in customer service usually end up hating their customers because they're ungrateful, bitchy, and don't recognize the rules/foundation upon which their service is offered. How do you like it when a customer calls you up and demands something? feel like going and helping them?

Small suggestion, could we get a forum where every change gets posted? So players can offer feedback and thanks? Maybe even post some of shit you go through in finding/fixing/coding this shit. Example: cyric sifted through 1000 rooms to find 6 keys that didnt load? thank you so much, it really gets frustrating searching for something that can not be found.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Oct 29, 2001 3:05 pm

Understand that the individual gods' knowledge of administrative affairs is incomplete. If we hear a definite announcement, it -always- comes from a forger (Miax, Cyric, Shevy), or the staff member who is directly in charge of the question. I understand the gods' reluctance to answer questions outside their own specific spheres of influence, because if they're wrong by even a small degree, a thread pops up almost immediately complaining about it.

I think a go-between would be a fairly useful concept. But what would make it work is the individual staff members' attitudes... if they brush off the questions that the intermediary brings them, or if they're as silent in petition and email as they are to the general public, the idea will fall apart at the seams. However, if there is an elected intermediary, and the staff actually pays attention to him and answers the questions he puts forth so he can take them back to the forum, it would be a fantasic avenue of communication.

To elect an intermediary I propose a 100 mudder Battle Royale.

- Ragorn
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Oct 29, 2001 3:08 pm

Nobody here has the right to DEMAND anything of the staff. The staff giveth, and the staff can taketh away.

For all those people who seem to think they "need" feedback from the staff... you should be able to post something and walk away from it without having to receive personal recognition from the staff. Assume they all get looked at, if the staff has time to consider it, they will. Demanding your own personal little notation from the staff is like the woman who always demands to see the manager every time she walks in the department store and doesn't feel important enough unless she can make the store run her way. If they wrote something to address EVERY question raised on this BBS, they'd have to have at least one staff member dedicated to that, because they wouldn't have the time to go do anything else.

Sorry, Mplor said what I've been trying to say the best. Appreciate what you have. Make suggestions for the better if you come up with something you think would be helpful. Don't expect somebody who is already gifting their time to you on other things to stop what they're doing in order to give you answers... you're assuming it would take so little of their precious time, but what you're forgetting is that it IS their precious time, and they don't owe you any of it.

Appreciate what you have, everything to come is just icing on the cake.
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Postby Zrax » Mon Oct 29, 2001 3:26 pm

If the gods stopped working on anything and everything right now i would still keep playing this mud over any other. It is that good. Staff feedback and response to player percieved issues is just bonus in my opinion.
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Postby Ssarra » Mon Oct 29, 2001 3:50 pm

Is it just me, or has anyone noticed that the polite, well thought out, non-slandering posts that players write when something needs to be looked into and fixed are the ones that 9 times out of 10 get a responding post from an admin? And the posts that start out with "Ok, I'm really f*****g pissed, change it NOW or I quit" are the ones that usually get ignored? Just curious if I was the only one to see that.
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Postby Todrael » Mon Oct 29, 2001 5:02 pm

As far as I can tell, it's completely arbitrary.

Actual conversation:
Newbie: "How do they determine which things will get implemented next?"
Player: "Dart board."

The staff will work on what they feel is justified and useful to the mud, what they feel like working on. Likewise, they will only respond to things they feel like responding to. Inflamatory threads receive replies just as often, or even moreso, than polite, well thought out posts (of which there are many). I do not fault them for this. I do, however, note that it does not lead to the best of relationships between player and administration.

I would love this proposed go-between, but I don't think it would be easily put into effect. Would rather see the development board used, which is really what the whole point of it was to begin with.

-Todrael
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Postby Elseenas » Mon Oct 29, 2001 8:48 pm

The Development News Board:

Came into existance on 8-01-01.

There are three announcements on 8-20-01.

An announcement on 8-22-01 that melee is being downgraded saying that these changes were being put into place for upcomming Elementalists.

An announcement on 10-10-01 stating that things were now ready for elementalists, who would be in RSN, and that the association code had been loaded up. There is also a statement that there should be one update a week from here on out (yeah!).

It'd be nice if there actually were and if the gods posted more about what they are currently working on in this forum. There would likely be a great deal less complaining if everyone felt like there was some kind of feedback as to what is being looked into.

Even a note like "we have looked into the issue brought up of paladin vs warrior tanks and have determined everything is as it should be" would be better than what we are actually hearing.



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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

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