Jot Changes

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Ionari
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Postby Ionari » Tue Dec 04, 2001 10:19 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
No more 5 person exp/rare hunting groups.. everyting.. must.. be.. brute.. force!</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm. Seems to be the reason Tiamat was upgraded. She was getting killed daily.

Oh, don't forget, this is also the reason monks were removed. Too much brute.. force!

Io
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Postby Kajib » Tue Dec 04, 2001 12:25 pm

Ok, admittedly, I havent played for quite some time, tho I am planning on coming back when I am done with finals.
IF things said in this thread are true, and , once again, I havent been to jot in a longass time, it seems like there are just beefier mobs in the rooms to make it harder. That seems rather similar to another mud i played a while ago that is closely related to sojourn...zones on that mud are a joke, all it takes are huge groups to steamroll zones...'hey guys, lets get a buncha swarmers and infernoers to just kill everything. We can get thru the zone easy, and its not even that challenging/fun.' I dunno, props to Gormal for taking smaller groups up there and not steamrolling shit. He may die more and its definitely not as easy, but its more skill oriented and he has fun doing it. Gormal has the sojourn mentality...I'd hate to see this mud take a turn for the worse and go spiralling down to the level of 'that other mud.'
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Postby Gormal » Tue Dec 04, 2001 12:53 pm

The gods implemented new group restrictions...and the players fought even more...we are not allowed to squad zones now. But if someone wants to go a step beyond just taking small groups and taking the smallest group they can...or going alone...they are suddenly twinks.

It appears the hypocricy of some people knows no bounds. What ever happened to letting people play this game the way they want to? Now we're slowly being forced to play a certain way...ordained by people we don't even know as players.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:28 pm

good post ensis.

oof dont agree gormal. the forgers have the right to take this game in the direction they desire. i hope someone up there has a vision for the game in philosophical terms and that the changes are being impd according to that because in the end, itll be a cohesive environment that someone will find enjoyable.

I'd like to be able to do tiamat again, but im not bugged and going to quit because i cant do tiamat, cant go to jot with a 5 man crew, ect. id like there to be more room for variety and tactics, but sometimes things like your 5 man groups hurt the majority of people (im thinking specifically of the rare hunt). Same thing with twinking. What is there for people to explore and find? Not much since anything they could do in a small group has been twinked by some high level. That hurts all of us and it hurts the game. The same goes for folks who monopolize rares.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Dec 04, 2001 7:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
I'd like to be able to do tiamat again, but im not bugged and going to quit because i cant do tiamat, cant go to jot with a 5 man crew, ect. id like there to be more room for variety and tactics, but sometimes things like your 5 man groups hurt the majority of people (im thinking specifically of the rare hunt). </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, if he wants to see if he *can* do it with 5 men, I think it's not unreasonable to allow him to try. I mean, noone says you have to make, say, buffalos near WD soloable. But if you go out and try, some people will find they can solo them for decent xp and some can't.
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Postby Nida » Tue Dec 04, 2001 7:57 pm

Have to remember, too, that we're still in beta... sometimes things are going to be unbalanced before everything can wind up better balanced in the end. True, there's not gonna be another wipe, so whatever happens until the final balance is achieved will affect us in the long run, but I think that it's worth the discomfort and the tweaking to make it all happen. Don't forget that the gods have the biggest picture to look at, and they may have things in mind that will make us all much happier in the end, if we'll be willing to live through the growing pains. Image

-Nida
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Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 04, 2001 8:44 pm

nod if he wants to do 5 man jot, then he can still try it. its just harder to get that 5 man group into jot. If its impossible to get past the 3 trolls with 5 man then its too hard to do with 5 men. And you know, the trolls dont pop right, he can take his group up there after they are dead (ie another group has done jot, had the opportunity to rare search if they wanted), or get some friends help to clear the trolls before he enters.
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Postby Gormal » Tue Dec 04, 2001 11:19 pm

Firstly...its not just the trolls. Its every freakin mob that feels like wandering in on you.

Secondly once the trolls are dead you STILL can't walk in if theres a mob in the room...helllo juib!


who said i was just talking about forgers? I understand that non-forgers were a huge part in this. And not to be offensive but not all of the forgers have a ton of play time this wipe... its one thing to play and another completely to write policy. Again, I'm not flaming the forgers...some of them just don't have the time to play or possibly the desire. Those of us that do play have a very different perspective on the game.
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Postby Jurdex » Tue Dec 04, 2001 11:54 pm

So make that room with the three trolls !juib/demo/mari/succ

Its not so bad:P

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Postby Gormal » Wed Dec 05, 2001 12:14 am

I think people are seriously misunderstanding why this upsets me. I talked to Corth about it today and he said the same thing. This is just an example of where the mud seems to be heading... and if a change like this is undesireable....its going to keep happening.

Not to be melodramatic but the line has to be drawn somewhere.... and I love this game and want to do whatever i believe will help it be better.
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Postby Vandic » Wed Dec 05, 2001 12:21 am

Well, I guess I'm about the last person to weigh in on this mess, so I'll add my few points and be done with it.

First, I haven't seen the "new and improved" Jot yet, so I'm not going to have anything special to say about how hard it is. Obviously, however, it's a subject a lot of people are passionate about.

I consider myself to be an above average player, but by no means in the top tier of people who play here. Having said that, I think the old Jot was perfectly suited for me. There was always challenge in the right places for the eq. You earned your easy emissaries by living through second gatehouse, and you can damn well believe you earned Loki and Thrym. Occasional rares always made the trip interesting. Some rares, my groups could handle without much trouble...others would give us fits. I don't personally care much for the 5-man jot xp groups, but there are people who do and I respect that.

In the OOC conversation last night, it was explained that (part of) the reasoning behind the changes was to prevent people running grid solo or in tiny groups for rare hunting. For this reason, I think the inclusion of some sort of sentinel mob at the zone entrance was justified. Three trolls in a room where astral mobs can just stroll in, that's a bit much. Maybe one big giant caster, !aggr, 1e of tree that keeps you from getting in...I dunno.

I'm rambling I know, but I'll try to keep to the big points I wanna make.

The other Jot changes, in my mind, are an attempt to balance the zone for the upper echelon of players...the people who need maybe 1 or 2 items from there, and often for an alt. To be honest, with a few exceptions jot eq isn't even top-tier eq any more.

Another important point I think that needs to be addressed about Jot is that it's a zone where, much like vault, a lot of people get "broken in" to real zoning. At least they used to, I know I did. In comparison, though, the groups that are most often doing zones are basically the same groups of people who steamroll through them at breakneck speed. I've been on a couple of these, and to be honest they're not nearly as fun...at least not to me.

I understand that the gods have several factors they have to consider when balancing zones now, factors that didn't appear in previous balance attempts. Most notably, the playerbase is more experienced now than it's ever been. That just happens with time, there's no way around it. Second, the introduction of revamped druids/shamans and illusionists (and soon to be elementalists) create an entirely new dynamic to zoning. It was mentioned in a long-forgotten thread that some zones simply become damn near impossible if you don't have every utility class on...and with a substantially smaller playerbase than the mud is used to seeing, that becomes a more and more difficult thing to do.

To be honest, I don't care if Dornax or Folur or Cherzra or anyone else can put together an uber-group and run through Jot in 45 minutes...more power to em. They'll probably laugh at my naivete and say "45? Hell, we can do it in 30!" But trying to make it hard for them carries the weight of making it close to impossible for a lot of people who would otherwise get a chance to see one of the most magnificently crafted zones on the mud.

I think I've rambled enough for now...please flame away.

-Vandic Hammerfist - Fidelis - Northern Star
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Postby Corth » Wed Dec 05, 2001 1:49 am

I concur with vandic entirely.

Corth
Jurdex
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Postby Jurdex » Wed Dec 05, 2001 2:35 am

Poll: of all those complaining of the changes or opposed to the changes, how many of you have actually done the changed zone?

Just curious. Image

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Postby Corth » Wed Dec 05, 2001 2:54 am

How exactly does that matter dornax? I know that 3 level 50 trolls in astral would keep grid groups out of jot, and I could care less about the rest of the jot changes. Do I have to actually go get smited in a 5 person group in astral trying to kill three trolls in order to comment first?

And yes, I know its been reduced to two, which is fine by me. I'm level 46, and my friends have spiffy eq. My 5 man group will be able to kill those two trolls (*sarcasm*).

I love how these changes instituted for the "good of the mud" are going to benefit our uber-guilds Dornax.

Corth

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 12-04-2001).]
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Postby Trogar » Wed Dec 05, 2001 3:14 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vandic:
To be honest, with a few exceptions jot eq isn't even top-tier eq any more.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good post Vandic. Except the above quote. I have to admit, I agree with Gormal on this issue. May lightning strike me down!

I'd like to mention a point from a leaders perspective that has not been discussed here.

How do you build a group on Soj? Many years ago, before my time, zones like brass were super brutal. Then Jotunheim was invented, and the eq from Jot made the rest of the mud doable.

So how are groups traditionally built? Well, with Jot eq. I could name.. many leaders who had followers, did Jot everyday and after time had the ability to move to other zones.

Now there are many players who posted in this thread here who are my former-followers, and I am sure they remember a time when we did Jot Jot Jot Jot Jot until we were blue in the face. Its always been a tradition that built groups on Soj.

I played a lot in the summer, and Soj3 was no different then Toril. The big groups did Vault/SG for a while, and then it was jot jot jot jot jot.

I claim that any competant group can do anything on soj with vault/sg/jot eq (with hp rings). I speak from experience, and I tell you you do not need all the top rares to be effective on Soj. In my reign on Toril, there were times when my guild had the non-rare regular zone eq, and we did everythign on the mud, including multiple Tiamat runs. As time went by, we grew stronger, were given artifacts, had the big rares and hasted monks, and we still did everything on the mud. While it was fun rolling over everything in our path, we didn't need the power - we had smart players.

Its the jot eq that builds the mud. What worries me if the non-level 50 groups can't do jot well, then this hampers the growth of new groups on the mud.

Trogar, the Elder Statesman
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Postby Jurdex » Wed Dec 05, 2001 4:46 am

We don't know how lower level groups will do jot because almost no one has bothered to go and try the zone.

I do think jarl at 2nd gatehouse is way too much.

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Postby Corth » Wed Dec 05, 2001 5:06 am

Yeah, who knows, Gormal's low level jot groups might all of a sudden become unspankable now that jot was made harder! *smirk* Image

But yeah, I see your point. As far as most of the jot changes go, we'll see the result over time and I'm sure it will be tweaked. My only problem was with the obviously excessive move of putting the three trolls in astral. But the gods realized their mistake rather quickly so its all good.

Corth
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Postby Gormal » Wed Dec 05, 2001 8:36 am

Dornax asked me to post my suggestions here so okay.


Extend the branch onto jot one room...make the tree a zone unto itself so you cannot track or teleport into the zone.

Put 2 giants guarding the tree...why the hell would trolls care....its the giants who rule the country.

Remove the jarl from 2nd gate.

Take the mages out of the rooms and put one in each room adjacent to the emisarries...no ambassador would tolerate some dude hanging in his living quarters...they can wait outside the door.

Make all rares in jot !locate.

This solves the rare "problem", without causing needless spanks.

not 3 more guards in 2nd gate...2 extra only please.

enjoy
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Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 05, 2001 10:24 am

Agree Trogar and Vandic. Especially on its a zone where people get broken into zoning and a zone where you get equipped so that you can do bigger zones. That jarl is going to rip some newbie 40 mage with 350 hps a new bunghole or are 40 mages no longer jot/palace caliber. Lets not make it so you have to be 50 and well eqd in order to zone with a reasonable chance of living.

Mostly agree Gormal, make all the rares !locate. Move the trolls into the tree make the who area !teleport and find someway to protect the secret of invasion from farsee/look. I think its unnecessarily dangerous to have to fight in astrals (though you made a comment earlier about jubi blocking you, but come on your not going to try and run past jubi with a group, youll wait for him to move regardless of if he blocks you). I think the trolls are fine vs giants because its not like this is a road into jot, its through a tree in astral into a snowdrift. i dont know what exits the giants use in and out of jot, but i doubt its through the snowdrift. Doesnt mean they havent found this entrance and put sentries there to keep folks out, but you can play the story anyway you want. Still, the trolls could probably have a different description Giant Fensirs!

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 12-05-2001).]

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