Player Base

Archive of the Sojourn3 Ideas Forum.
Llaaldara
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Player Base

Postby Llaaldara » Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:11 pm

Is it growing? Is it shrinking? Who can really tell with all the alts?
Who really knows for sure?


Why not have a way to possibly keep track? After you say Y to creating a new char, why not ask a couple extra questions that record the answers to a file.

Are you new to Sojourn or is this character an alt? N for new, A for alt

Maybe the restults could be kept track of on the BBS like some of the other info is? :roll:

-LL
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Shevarash
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Feb 14, 2003 7:01 pm

It's possible that an expanded newbie system could do that, but for now you can always check:

http://www.sojourn3.org/info_index.html

Click on "Usage Statistics"
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Llaaldara
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Postby Llaaldara » Fri Feb 14, 2003 7:08 pm

:wink: That's what I mean shevy!

But charts that just keep track of new players~!

Maybe there could be some type of deadline on a pfile that says after a certain day of like 2 months of playing or a certain ptime you're no longer considered a new player. Ooo! That way graphs could show how many new players were made and how many are and have been playing during when! :shock: :D

If we knew what time of the year, and what time of the month we mostly get new players, we could respond to this in kind! We as gamers could try to be on our best behavior and on the look out for newer players during the 'newbie' seasons! Hey even advertising maybe? Or special mud events? Stuff!! :shock:

If we know our audience, we can cater to them!

-LL
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Postby thanuk » Fri Feb 14, 2003 8:15 pm

Llaaldara wrote: We as gamers could try to be on our best behavior and on the look out for newer players during the 'newbie' seasons! Hey even advertising maybe? Or special mud events? Stuff!! :shock:


Shh...be bewy bewy quiet....im huntin n00bies...

But its twink season!
Newbie season!
Twink season!
Newbie season!
TWINK SEASON!
...
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'
You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'
Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'
You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'
Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Turxx
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Postby Turxx » Sat Feb 15, 2003 1:08 pm

something that occured to me is how fricken wussified a level one char is...you should ditch the first 3 levels or so and start people off at level 3 or 4 calling that level 1 and just kind of spreading the first 15 levels a bit different to make up for that.
now i know the great majority of you old schoolers are going to think this is stupid, but this thread and this idea isnt for you, you who dont roll a new char till after you have eq to put on them. those of you who already know how to play the game and already have friends here that are not going to help you skip the first 3 levels but prolly more like the first 20
no im thinking of how disgruntalling it is to get OWNED by a rabbit...the newbies who give up b4 they even had a chance to discover the game
i know there are alot of them, cant find help, cant figure out the commands, cant even kill a rabbit, this game is stupid, turn it off and move on...you are just too rediculously sissified in the first couple levels, NOBODY should ever get owned by a rabbit
anouther neat little idea ive seen used in other muds is an equipment basin, say put one in dk and wd where people can drop off lowbie equipment as a donation to n00bs, so if i pick up some little junk sword or something i can drop it in the basin where it would magically be transported to a similar basin in the start room of the newbie zone, its too hard for newbies, lets welcome them with open arms, lets let them coast through the first few levels to give them a little time to get a feel for the game without becoming frustrated, time to be enticed to learn to play and get the higher levels and do the things that SHOULD be hard
one more little idea, add a map with a magical "you are here" of their choosen home town and short simple hand book containing a list of the basic commands and help files to the starter gear, it doesnt make alot of sense to me to make people wear gear and put stuff in their bag either to start, you should already be wearing your clothes and keeping stuff in your bag, possibly the first thing when you enter the game you should see:
you are wearing
you are carrying
your bag contains
as if you had just typed eq, then i, then exa bag
lets not assume people already know whuts going on, lets assume they dont
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Postby Clan Blindhammer » Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:17 pm

That's actually a pretty good idea, and I think a lot of it is due to the new combat system. It's harder for mages who don't adjust their stats towards strength, and more importantly, agility and dexterity, and when they have spells that can hit, but actually do no damage at all, to a level 1 mob. So once that spell is cast, succeed or fail, damage or not, the mageling has to deal with melee or flee and remem...definitely detrimental to a newbie not understanding the future of their character if they stick with it.

That's why we have groups, you say. VETO!

Even a group of two newbies can have the same trouble, given some of the crazier crit-abilities of some newbie mobs vs. base hp at lvl 1. I think I'm a little bit for Turxx's idea.


Oh yeah, why were donation pits taken out originally? I vaguely remember one in Leuthilspar and Waterdeep....
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Postby Savras » Sat Feb 15, 2003 4:10 pm

Clan Blindhammer wrote:Oh yeah, why were donation pits taken out originally? I vaguely remember one in Leuthilspar and Waterdeep....


Hrmm... I think they were being abused, ie people looting and selling the eq.
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Great idea!

Postby Kasmarlyia » Sat Feb 15, 2003 10:02 pm

It's only a beginning to have the newbie area in the beginning of the mud, but what does it really teach you? :) I think that Turxx had some really great ideas. This mud was the very first mud I'd ever played, all those many years ago, and I didn't even know how to eat or drink, much less handle my equipment. :oops: The newbie help channel is great, but we could do a lot more. :)
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Postby Vahok » Sat Feb 15, 2003 10:12 pm

I still don't know how to handle my equipment ... :wink:
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Postby Galkar » Sat Feb 15, 2003 10:56 pm

Donation pit - I like the idea, but why not put a limit on who can take stuff out of the pits. Anyone can put in, only levels 10-20 and under can take out. shrug.
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Postby Daz » Sat Feb 15, 2003 11:13 pm

i suggested a donation pit, and even highlighted ways that abuse could be prevented. the players hate it because they want every single new player here to suffer horribly and become bitter and disgusted . . . oh wait, hmm. ok, ill stop.
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Postby Gurns » Sun Feb 16, 2003 1:03 am

Vahok wrote:I still don't know how to handle my equipment ... :wink:

You pull your right hand in,
you push your right hand out,
you pull your right hand in,
and you shake it all about.
You do the Hokie Pokie and
You turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Feb 17, 2003 12:01 am

Can I just comment on the fact that Vahok doesn't know how to handle his ...... equipment??


Nothing new here .. please drive through!
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Postby Turxx » Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:58 am

one more great idea i just heard from a a newbie jsut now on nhc, put some spanky looking eq on mobs that can be killed by newies, not spanky stats but cool names with neat ansi, a little something to notch ac some, getting this eq would be so cool to newbies, encouraging them to seak out things and explore, excite them to the possiblities awaiting them as they grow, heck yeah, let them look nice and be proud of their char and the things they were able to find, spanky eq is like a been there done that badge.
this thread is asking about player base and the fact of the matter is we need more players and for that we need new players, since becoming a helper ive seen alot of newbies never return.
one more thing, it is my honest opinion that the newbie zone is boring and confusing and prolly does more harm then good...
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Postby Llaaldara » Wed Feb 19, 2003 3:11 pm

Helping newbies out, real newbies I mean, only seems to help you out personally. When a player first comes here and starts to play, for the most part you can mold them into good players or bad ones buy how you act towards the group and to them personally. Within the last couple of days, I apparently took a couple of first time zoners out. Both on goodie and evil side. When they told me early on that this was their first time zoning, I took extra care to make myself available to their needs. Asking during the zone if they are doing ok or if they didn't understand something. If they had a particular job for the group, I made sure they understood it.
:D
I've learned that this kind of treatment really can reward you personally in the end. You'll gain a strong friendship and a dependable person to count on. And sometimes they'll pull a Cruk on you later and retire, but not before handing you every single thing they own to do with however you please. :wink:

I just wish I could do more for them by being more accutely aware of when they are most active on the mud. :roll:

Yeah, I'd lik to know when it was newbie season. I'd go hunting and drag Thanuk along! :wink:

-LL
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Postby Chandigar2 » Wed Feb 19, 2003 3:56 pm

Turxx wrote:one more great idea i just heard from a a newbie jsut now on nhc, put some spanky looking eq on mobs that can be killed by newies, not spanky stats but cool names with neat ansi, a little something to notch ac some, getting this eq would be so cool to newbies, encouraging them to seak out things and explore, excite them to the possiblities awaiting them as they grow, heck yeah, let them look nice and be proud of their char and the things they were able to find, spanky eq is like a been there done that badge.
this thread is asking about player base and the fact of the matter is we need more players and for that we need new players, since becoming a helper ive seen alot of newbies never return.
one more thing, it is my honest opinion that the newbie zone is boring and confusing and prolly does more harm then good...


I dunno, personally I'm just against fancy ansi for noob eq. It used to be (or seemed to when I started playin here) that a mark of how cool you were was the fanciness of your ansi :D It was part of the search for new and better eq that you looked for stuff that looked better too.

$150 Nikes vs $9.99 K-mart special
$5000 rolex vs $12.99 Casio digital

etc. Both the rolex and the casio tell time (ie stats) so its all about style.

I was pretty surprised/annoyed when I saw that earring out of the ant farm with huge text and ansi yet was total noob eq.
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Postby thanuk » Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:20 pm

If that annoys you, you should see the BC eq chandigar:)


a set of rune covered leather sleeves
(coughSplitShieldcough)

exam sleeves

You see nothing special about them...(magic)
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Sundara » Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:31 pm

Gurns wrote:
Vahok wrote:I still don't know how to handle my equipment ... :wink:

You pull your right hand in,
you push your right hand out,
you pull your right hand in,
and you shake it all about.
You do the Hokie Pokie and
You turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about.


*laff* phew

Btw, Turxx, I think some of your ideas are great regarding newbies! Question tho, how do you prevent someone from hording the donation pit besides level limit? true newbies would be left with nothing really to go off hunting. Now if there was a system for pbase that could actually identify "new _true_ newbies" (which btw, LL, really nice idea too) then maybe the donation pit could be coded for true newbies. Until then, I think that basin would be abused somehow. ::shrug::
When poverty comes knocking on your door, love escapes through the window.

-German Proverb-
Birile
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Postby Birile » Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:49 pm

Wow, the equipment pit is an EXCELLENT idea. I've seen this on other muds--er, not that I frequent other muds...--and it's been a serious boon. As for players taking advantage of this and hording eq, who freakin' cares? If someone wants to steal a ring out of the pit that gives 5hp big deal. It just shows how much of a dweeb they are and they probably know it in the back of their minds. So long as SOMEONE actually benefits from this in the way it was intended I say we go for it.

As for the ansi on n00b eq idea, I don't think it's absolutely horrible to add a little color here and there rather than running around with boring all-grey ansi crap. If the crap a n00b has to wear has a little color, at least it gives them an idea that bigger and better things are out there and that they will eventually be able to attain that prettier and better stat'd eq.

Honestly, this mud isn't exactly newbie friendly. If it weren't for the likes of Lilithelle, Demberdazzle and Beca helping me out literally on day one I would've quit from frustration. For every helpful Lilithelle there's a god-damned g00b out there who just wants to frustrate a n00b as best he can or just doesn't want to take the time out of his scheduled guard duty at 1w or the DK fountain to answer a question or two.

Don't get me wrong--I completely feel the frustration of players who try and try their hardest to help out lowbie characters only to find out that the lowbie is someone's alt and they're just tryin' to make out with some semi-cool eq. I've had this happen to me so many times I can't count. The idea that some lvl 50 character's alt just conned me out of a brig plate that some ACTUAL new player could have gotten a hell of a lot of use out of kills me. But the satisfaction of seeing the expression on someone's proverbial face when you help them out of a REAL jam makes up for it, in my opinion.

And as for the zoning thing, I was surprised as hell when my lvl 24 necro was invited along to be sitter at DK vault the other day. Yeah, I was just sitter but just the fact that my necro was so small and invited along anyway floored me. I'm pretty experienced as a goodie but that was my first experience in a zone that only ebils can do, something I didn't expect my necro to get the chance to see for at least 10 more levels. My hat off to that group leader and people like her.

Enough rambling for now.
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Postby Sundara » Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:08 pm

Birile wrote: As for players taking advantage of this and hording eq, who freakin' cares? If someone wants to steal a ring out of the pit that gives 5hp big deal. It just shows how much of a dweeb they are and they probably know it in the back of their minds. So long as SOMEONE actually benefits from this in the way it was intended I say we go for it.



Someone would benefit from that, and thats fine, but would a true newbie benefit from that if its empty? Newp, and would prolly just leave. :roll: I still like the idea tho. Maybe it could re-load the eq on boots for them and they wouldn't have to worry going off hunting naked. I dunno. Thinkin of ways thinkin of ways.....;) Anyway, newbie eq reboots can be done until they've reached a certain level.
When poverty comes knocking on your door, love escapes through the window.



-German Proverb-
Birile
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Postby Birile » Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:34 pm

I don't think the eq pit would ever be completely empty unless we're speaking at the beginning of a boot unless there would be some way to keep the memory of what's in the pit from boot to boot. As I've said and others have said, this is something that other muds do. From the times that I've scavenged these pits, I was able to find rather good things in them--not on par with a 30hp orb or something like that, but stuff that's in the low-to-mid level eq range, which is eons ahead of what characters start off with currently. It helps keep new players in the game. That in itself should be incentive enough, whether idiots want to horde 5ac boots or not. The benefits to truly new players will outweigh the benefit to more experienced players who think it's a great idea to scavenge the pit themselves.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:16 pm

Wearing an assortment of strange and filthy clothes the dwarven prospector looks like the land he is walking through. His skin is a dark brown, which is a testament to how long he has been out here. He carries a wide variety of tools in belt, which is half covered by his long beard.
A dwarven prospector is in excellent condition.

<worn on head> a one horned dwarven helm


It is 3am, on the Day of Freedom
The 4th Day of the Month of Flamerule (Summertide), Year 461.
Time elapsed since boot-up: 35:07:31
Current time is: Wed Feb 19 13:49:52 2003 (EST)

It's nice to believe that giving newbies access to pits brimming to overflowing with lower level gear will keep newbies here. Sad to say, that would probably only compound the problems. The point of playing a game like Sojourn, beyond the realm of socializing, is feeling like you're a hero and you're going out to kick butt and take names, not stand in line at the local welfare bin.

What newbies really need is to feel like part of our culture and to know they fit in and have a place. Until experience stops going faster solo at lower levels the problem doesn't stand a chance of being fixed. If people want an alt they gear it up and take it out to level it solo because nobody wants to spend too much time doing exp, and helping a newbie level only slows down the process. I know, I've been there, and having somebody along with my little alt caused me to gain experience at 1/3 the rate I was getting it while alone.

Noob experience needs to have another look, especially caster exp pre-20. Exp needs to be revamped to reward similar level grouping instead of powersoloing or powerleveling. Low level surviveability needs to be given a look, too, but if something is done to encourage grouping then surviveability won't be such an issue.

No donation pit is ever going to beat the exchange between two people when somebody gives somebody else something needed, and no donation pit is ever gonna come close to giving a noob the feeling of killing that dwarven prosepctor for that one horned helm. Those are the feelings that inspire people to stay - community and accomplishment.
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Postby Llaaldara » Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:43 pm

Me no like donation pit idea either! :cry: Boooo!

Me no like lowering exp at lowlevels either! :?

Soj was never about being easy and fast. That's other muds! It was pretty hard to level up with zero gear when the soj3 first went back up, but hey we did it! :shock:

Making some games easier usually just means you get bored with them faster. :roll: I do think we need some feeling of accomplishment tho. And more Camaraderie!

I don't like newbie walk-thrus either. I never stuck with any muds that had that. If I couldn't pick it up in 5-10 mins. I moved on. I'm not in support of dumming down our player base. I'm in favor of making the game more interesting and addictive.

How can we do that?

:roll:

-LL
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Postby moritheil » Thu Feb 20, 2003 3:21 pm

I'm in support of the latter as well.

Watch my proposals. :wink:
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Postby old depok » Thu Feb 20, 2003 6:02 pm

What keeps new players coming back is the feeling of accomplishment and friendship. The way to encourage that is to retool the experience system.

Currently the experience system encourages groups because the mobs that you need to kill to gain experience need a group to kill them. Unless that is, you have great EQ and potions and friends that can spell you up.

Ashiwi pointed out the problem perfectly. There is no incentive for alts to group with new players. There is actually a detriment to doing so.

If you change this so that grouping together does not lower, but in fact raises the overall experience that everyone gets you will see alts asking other players for groups. You will see groups taking that extra hitter or caster to speed up exp because they are not "stealing" the experience from the rest of the group.

Limit the benefit to within a certain number of levels of the lowest group member. Make the experience scaled based upon level (so you don't have a level one char sitting with a level 50 killing thigs and getting pleveled like mad).
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Feb 20, 2003 8:36 pm

I aggree that if there was an exp bonus to more group members, that'd be a good way to convince people to group with others, and thereby increase the drawl to newbies.

What's to stop someone from buying a couple of pets instead of real players tho and grouping them instead? :roll:

I really don't see how people feel that grouping with others you don't know and are new to the game won't help you out more? :shock: Woopity-Doo, your exp is cut 20% by the addition of a newbie to the group. Think of the friend you could be making and loyal follower and aid in times of need your gaining. :wink:

That's what evils know and most goodies appear to have forgotten. That exp percentage loss is meaningless compared to what you gain by helping someone else level up a char. By helping them, you help yourself.

Are you just playing this game to do mindless experience? Or are you here for the atmosphere and people? If it's the people, what do you care about the exp being reduced if your social interaction is boosted? :wink:

Be nice to newbies. Because in 40 some levels, she/he could be the one dragging your soon to rot dumbunz outa somewhere! :D

The exp bonus idea is neat and all, but I'd rather be known as someone people like because I did group you even when I didn't need you just to get to know you, not because it gave me a coded bonus to drag your complaining/whiney butt along. :roll:

-LL
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Feb 20, 2003 8:51 pm

Llaaldara, just in case you're preaching to me, I only mentioned the exp loss because quite a few people solo instead of grouping because it's so much quicker to level in the smaller levels solo than grouped, but that doesn't mean that I booted the person I was grouped with over a few hours of exp. The whole goodies/evils BS didn't even need to be brought into it.
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Postby Birile » Thu Feb 20, 2003 8:53 pm

Llaaldara wrote:I really don't see how people feel that grouping with others you don't know and are new to the game won't help you out more? :shock: Woopity-Doo, your exp is cut 20% by the addition of a newbie to the group. Think of the friend you could be making and loyal follower and aid in times of need your gaining. :wink:

That's what evils know and most goodies appear to have forgotten.


Not to turn this into a race thing, but you can hear just as many crickets chirping at the DK fountain as you can at 1w in WD when a lowbie asks if anyone can help them out with a little exp. Both sides know the value of new players to Sojourn3, and let's not forget that some goodies have even begun a Guild dedicated to helping out honest-to-goodness n00bs. Each side has people who love to help and each side has people who don't want to bother. Period.
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:25 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Llaaldara, just in case you're preaching to me, I only mentioned the exp loss because quite a few people solo instead of grouping because it's so much quicker to level in the smaller levels solo than grouped, but that doesn't mean that I booted the person I was grouped with over a few hours of exp. The whole goodies/evils BS didn't even need to be brought into it.


Why so defensive? I said 'most' and 'appear to have forgotten' showing I was uncertain of these things for the most part. I'm attacking the mindset brought up on here. The mindset of not grouping with newbies just because it lowers the amount of exp you get. :?

If I was going to 'preach' to anyone hon, or inspire some form of personal attack, I'd say their name and say it to their face. :twisted:

As for crickes chirping a the dk fountain, were you using tells or says? Most evils a dk fountain or the morgue are usually afk silly! :wink: Heeyy wai a sec, you're not a noob! :shock:

-LL
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Postby old depok » Fri Feb 21, 2003 1:45 pm

No offense Llaaldara but your suggesting that instead of trying to address the problem that we all see in terms of experience being less in groups than solo we should just change the attitudes of people on the mud is not a solution.

If we want this mud to be a group oriented mud, which it is, then it doesn't make sense for there to be a detriment to being in a group. This is not just a noob problem either. It is a problem across the board. This past weekend I tried to get into many experience groups with my rogue. Finally I found an ungrouped elementalist and we added a cleric and did some experience on ship.

I don't think that I would have had a problem getting a group if there wasn't a finite amount of exp to go around in those groups.
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Postby Llaaldara » Fri Feb 21, 2003 3:16 pm

old depok wrote:No offense Llaaldara but your suggesting that instead of trying to address the problem that we all see in terms of experience being less in groups than solo we should just change the attitudes of people on the mud is not a solution.

If we want this mud to be a group oriented mud, which it is, then it doesn't make sense for there to be a detriment to being in a group. This is not just a noob problem either. It is a problem across the board. This past weekend I tried to get into many experience groups with my rogue. Finally I found an ungrouped elementalist and we added a cleric and did some experience on ship.

I don't think that I would have had a problem getting a group if there wasn't a finite amount of exp to go around in those groups.


Point Taken! :D

I can always dream tho! :wink:

-LL

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