More Lich Stuff

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Mitharx
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More Lich Stuff

Postby Mitharx » Tue Jul 22, 2003 11:51 pm

Please please please fix my pets. They die on smoke. I can stand on smoke without dying and they're undead like me. It won't give me any major advantages. Mephits switch too much when they tank. I end up spamming rescue and getting hit for my troubles. They can only rescue every two rounds.

Part of me wants to say that I should be immune to mind based attack because i'm dead, but I'm not sure if lichs have brains and it's not like we would get immunity to psis anyway.

Idea for a spell: Wraithform. Lasts bout as long as death pact so it's only good for one fight or so. You get no extra hitpoints. You get no haste. Would be cool to have vamp touch, but that really doesn't matter because everyone wields. Would just be a cool spell for lichs to quest and be kinda helpful in some fights where people are getting bashed to death.

If you're going to write this will make lichs too powerful please explain how it will.

Do lichs have blood? Cause if not I wanna stop getting affected by poison stuff that burns my blood. Wondering if resistance could be upped against that stuff.
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Postby Todrael » Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:55 am

For consistency's sake, it would be nice if pets had the same immunity to smoke pains as a Lich, of course. I never exp'd there, but I'm assuming there are plenty of places just as easy and as good, if there are balance concerns.

Immunity to mind based attacks is granted by the Mind Blank spell,which Enchanters get. A lich's mind is one of the few things remaining after death.

If Wraithform spell doesn't give extra hps or haste or vamp touch, then what's the point? Just to be harder to bash, and take a little less damage? Seems like a solo tool. They don't seem to like solo tools. This is one of the few things that make Elementalists such great soloists.

Liches have blood, but it's kind of decaying and isn't used to sustain them. Liches are, technically, immune to poison. What that translates to in game code at the moment is that they are immune to the 'Poison' spell. Procs that produce the same effect have to be altered on an individual basis to include the immunity, from my understanding. 'Venom' is still full strength, apparently because they feel it would damage the actual body thanks to its strength. Of course, my feeling are: immunity to Poison in all forms, only take half damage from Venom, and remove the ability to be Slow Poisoned. But that's up to them.

Several of these issues were mentioned recently in another Lich thread, and Shev said he was listening. So we'll see how things go, with time.
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Llaaldara
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Postby Llaaldara » Wed Jul 23, 2003 10:44 pm

Todrael wrote:For consistency's sake, it would be nice if pets had the same immunity to smoke pains as a Lich, of course. I never exp'd there, but I'm assuming there are plenty of places just as easy and as good, if there are balance concerns.


Agreed. Maybe on the gross irony side we could have it so 'heal undead' was restricted to a self heal only spell on them as well. Or we could just have it so our pets can heal us again? :D

Todrael wrote:Immunity to mind based attacks is granted by the Mind Blank spell,which Enchanters get. A lich's mind is one of the few things remaining after death.


A lich is undead, might not be mindless undead, but undead nontheless. I suggest some reading about psionic powers and also undead to compare notes and comfirm how this should be handled. Psionic powers that deal with mind attacks on undead, often cause the psionicist to make a saving throw vs (something can't remember but I think it was death) or go completely insane. The exception to this was normally psionic lich's who basically opperate with a continuous Tower of Iron will defense mode or some such.

I personally am leaning towards a high resistance to them, but not complete immunity. I realize this would suck for illithids, but I'm uncertain which (if any) of their powers work on undead atm.

Todrael wrote:If Wraithform spell doesn't give extra hps or haste or vamp touch, then what's the point? Just to be harder to bash, and take a little less damage? Seems like a solo tool. They don't seem to like solo tools. This is one of the few things that make Elementalists such great soloists.


I've desired a wraithform spell for a long time. The ability to passthru doors as tho they did not exist (to possibly open them from another side if the door was coded to allow this) yet lacking the rogues sneak ability to toally bypass a whole zone would be interesting side effect of ths spell. This aspect came to me lastnight when I was pondering about my lich pets at the time in Nizari.

But the main purpose I'd want this spell, for lich or invoker, was because I am a reduce whore. I'm always asking to have my invoker reduced so she doesn't get bashed. I'd love to have this spell. Would it really be so bad for invokers to have? Probably I guess, but still love to have it. :D

Possible bad side? Maybe mobs could attempt to control you like a charm?

Todrael wrote:Of course, my feeling are: immunity to Poison in all forms, only take half damage from Venom, and remove the ability to be Slow Poisoned. But that's up to them.


Ditto. But what about Nuetralize Poison? :?

Todrael wrote:Several of these issues were mentioned recently in another Lich thread, and Shev said he was listening. So we'll see how things go, with time.


The recent changes they did for lich's, I'd like to say thanks Shevy, I appreciate your effort! :D

-LL
Mitharx
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Postby Mitharx » Sat Jul 26, 2003 5:48 pm

Hey, I need to try to keep this post at the top of the idea list SO, let's get relocate and gate too. I can make a case for why it's okay, but before I do that let's get into why it's not okay (BTW: there was some discussion to this on a past thread I had, but I've talked to some people on online who disagreed with me and they said I had a good point, so let's try this again).

That is all.
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Postby Gyrx » Sat Jul 26, 2003 7:55 pm

i'm tired of trying to talk to goodies
Last edited by Gyrx on Sat Jul 26, 2003 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mitharx
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Postby Mitharx » Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:11 pm

Wow, same response all over again. I thought I had asked someone to at least make an attempt at explaining why this would make us so powerful, but that would require some effort. If the response, "Yeah, they could use some work, but so could all classes" is sufficient to stop all requests for upgrades then why does anyone ever bother asking?

So here we go.

Corpse stacking: I could put corpses on smoke and gate up and get them and put them some place for soloing. I hate to burst your bubble here, but I have enough friends here whom I could ask for help with this and then I wouldn't have to risk losing my gate before I drag those heavy corpses to it and have to start all over again in the zone. Umm, gimme some other uses, this is the only one I've seen mentioned so far.

For relocate. Make it a lich spell. My pets don't case lich spells. They can't relocate with me. It would be the way I A) get off smoke or B) move to a group who is zoning. If I wanna keep my pets, then I'm gonna have to find a way to get there w/out relocate. These things aren't gonna make me so powerful that I'm gonna start solo'in zones. Truth be told, the fights that are potentionally soloable are not going to be changed with the addition of these spells. Fights I solo I can find corpses for. It's not a huge deal. Also, corpse glamor + skeletons times 12 = I can drag corpses from desert to waterdeep without resting much.

The line it will make you too powerful is awesome and provable, so do so.

BTW: Bold is not an effective counter-argument.
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Postby Gyrx » Sat Jul 26, 2003 11:29 pm

i'm tired of trying to talk to goodies
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Postby Todrael » Sat Jul 26, 2003 11:42 pm

Reasons Not to Give Liches Reloc/Gate:

1) We don't need it.
2) The class is too specialized to have some of the general caster strengths.
3) There are already plenty of classes that have it.

Since you seem to really want people to go into more detail than just that, I'll expound on my reasoning behind each one.

1) We don't need it. Liches are already extremely powerful. We have massive damage that can rival Invokers under the correct circumstances, and have several ways of healing ourselves. We have unique abilities to create and maintain caster pets that have many of our own spells. We have general purpose powers, such as a vit-like HP bonus in reverse, lowering mob sv_spells, having even more spells per slot than any other class, and lots of small things that make us unique, like not eating/drinking/breathing. We have over 330 pages of spells as it is, more than any other class, I'm sure. We have one of the longest, hardest quests to do. There are other things I haven't mentioned. We simply don't need more to add onto all of that. How much power should one class hold?

2) The class is too specialized to have some of the general caster strengths. We have cold spells and undead spells. That tends to be what everything is centered around. The only damage spells we have that aren't limited in targets are ice tomb and rain of blood, and even ice tomb has some problems with certain targets. Adding more general things, like clairvoyance, locate object, relocate or gate, would really make the class more 'vanilla' and not quite as thematic as it is. I enjoy the theme most of all, and if anything is added, I'd like to see it be something that a Lich would truly appreciate, like 'Rain of Splatting Babies' or something (yes, I have a twisted mind).

3) There are already plenty of classes that have it. Enchanter, Invoker, Elementalist, Illusionist, to some degree Psionicist and Druid. We simply don't need another class that can perform this function. As you said, it's far easier to just ask a friend to assist you in going places or doing things.
-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
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Mitharx
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Postby Mitharx » Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:37 am

You're tired of talking to goodies. Once again a constructive response. I'm tired of talking to people who take a "Because I said so" attitude

Tod, thank you for giving some reasons. As best I can, tell your answer to why we should not have these skills is because lichs already have many spells. I can't argue with this. I will say that transporation spells aren't the main focus of skills with chanter or voker (are in illuses) and so perhaps it shouldn't be a problem to give the transporation spell to other mage classes which could benefit. At the same time, I realize this leaves me the problem of explaining why a class should get a transporation spell when it is not part of their focus. The only thing I can say is that other mage classes so why not us? If that response is once again because we have many others spells, then I have no counter-argument. It's a good point, but I feel that just because a class is talented in many areas (see elementalist) it doesn't mean that they should be restricted on skills or spells that would not make them exceptionally overpowered.

We don't need it. Maybe not. We don't really NEED the other upgrades lichs have gotten, but they're a very nice addition and pat on the back for the quest we did to get to lichdom. I will say that your thematic response is also very good. I rp much as others are interested and enjoy the theme spells we have. Relo/Gate are general caster spells. It's just that the idea of a very powerful being who is always working towards making himself more powerful and can't master a spell that all other mages can is a double-edged sword.
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Postby Todrael » Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:02 pm

"I will say that transporation spells aren't the main focus of skills with chanter or voker (are in illuses) and so perhaps it shouldn't be a problem to give the transporation spell to other mage classes which could benefit."

There's only one other mage class. Necromancer/Lich.

"The only thing I can say is that other mage classes so why not us?"

And here I thought you were trying your best to not have a 'generic/picked from a predetermined list of responses' response for this thread.

"I feel that just because a class is talented in many areas (see elementalist) it doesn't mean that they should be restricted on skills or spells that would not make them exceptionally overpowered."

Who are you to determine what is overpowered or not? From what I have heard, many of those that play liches do not explore the true potential of the class to the lengths people such as myself, Dezzex, Lynia, or Sssryth have attempted. There are many ways to use a class above and beyond that which many people see in day to day activity, even from those that might think they know what they're doing. This is why many ATDs are now in the game, as one person figures something special out, then it becomes common knowledge. I'm not going to make a list of reasons why this might be overpowering, I'm just going to trust in the Imm judgement on the matter, which for the entire history of the Lich has been: no reason to have gate/reloc.

"It's just that the idea of a very powerful being who is always working towards making himself more powerful and can't master a spell that all other mages can is a double-edged sword."

This is an all-encompassing 'we should have everything' argument. It's like making a contract where the only thing it says is, 'I'm right.' By this logic, shouldn't we have stone skin? Heck, even Shaman get that spell, and they aren't even mages! How about asking for Clairvoyance, Locate Object, and Power Word Blind? Or maybe Major Paralysis. Paralysis would even fit in with the class's theme very nicely, especially if they renamed it something themey.

Yes, there are reasons to give the class Relocate and Gate, just as there are reasons against it. But what it comes down to, and you agreed, is that they just don't need it. Period.
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Postby Mitharx » Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:12 pm

"There's only one other mage class. Necromancer/Lich. "

This goes without saying.


"And here I thought you were trying your best to not have a 'generic/picked from a predetermined list of responses' response for this thread."

This was the basis for the original post many many months ago. If you want more specific reasons on why I want the spell then I'll be forced to tell you that relocate will help me get around and gate will help me get on and off other planes. These are also generic and quite obvious so I added in the lichs always searching for power idea and you said my argument claims we should have everything. Almost all mages in D&D were constantly searching for power and trying to improve themselves. So perhaps that part of the argument wasn't he best. However, it seems that a lich (who would have to be pretty damn powerful) should be able to master the spells that all other mages have. If I was asking for so many others spells that these other classes had then I would have been making a "we should have everything" argument. As it stands now, you made a jump from a certain premise to a much larger conclusion.

As for the imms, I don't know where they stand. I've talked to some and I get a fair amount of not sure and maybes and we'll talk. I created this thread to talk to the players (and since there aren't many lichs anymore I guess that's you and I) in an attempt to see why relo/gate would be a bad thing for lichs. I mean, is it a burden of proof issue to show that these spells will not make lichs too poweful or is it just assumed that they should never have them? In any case, I'd love for Shevy to post here and tell me to give it up cause it's never gonna happen or wait or do something.

You've made some good points. I'm not completely convinced either way, but then I guess I never will be. Which brings me back to your point: Yes, there are reasons to give the class Relocate and Gate, just as there are reasons against it. But what it comes down to, and you agreed, is that they just don't need it. Period.

Still, it would be a welcome addition and I believe those are the kinds of things that imms are looking for at this point.
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Postby Todrael » Sun Jul 27, 2003 8:14 pm

You are greedy. You agree we don't need it, then you say you want it. You agree there are very good points against it, then you say you want it.

You know what? I want it too. It'd be nice. It would be an upgrade. It would improve the abilities of the class, and alter the way all liches look at the world of Faerun. Easy transportation changes the fundamental game dynamics at the basest level.

But, we don't need it. If you agree with that simple statement, then there's no use in asking for it any more, nor is there any reason to continue posting and trying until Shev tells you to give up. Even though I want it, I also feel that we shouldn't have it.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how badly do you want Gate and Relocate? After you've determined that, sit back and look at your priorities. Why do you want it that much? If it's a high number, doesn't that show that, for you, it would be adding a considerable amount to the class? If it does add that much, wouldn't that be a good determination for it being overpowered? if it's a low number, doesn't that show that, for you, it doesn't really matter whether we get it or not? If it adds that little to the class, can't you just give it up? Either way, I think we've discussed all we can on the topic.
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Postby Mitharx » Sun Jul 27, 2003 10:08 pm

What seperates my greediness from yours when it comes to welcome additions to the lich class that are not actually necessary? In any case, don't respond to this. I agree you and have discussed what we're going to discuss and it will do us no good to go back and forth.
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Postby Todrael » Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:10 pm

I agree.
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Mitharx
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Postby Mitharx » Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:18 pm

Wow, this is bothersome, best response I've seen yet on why lichs shouldn't have relo/gate.

Inama ASSOC:: 'because your a necromancer, not a sorcerer'

Bleh, I hate it when she's right.
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Postby Todrael » Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:21 pm

Yeah.
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