Group/Solo balance Attn; Miax , Coders

[Sekon/Fanil]

Ok, Told Miax I'd post this. so here goes.

While I understand that sojourn is GROUP based, I have found from solo testing my lvl 50 warrior that warrior damage is insufficient for soloing. And we all know that grouping 100% of the time is impossible!

First, Define soloing!

I consider solo to be small stuff like money runs, mebbe align work, exploring, etc..

(ex: lvl 40 war Killing guards in IC for plats)

Problem : My lvl 50 warrior can't do enough damage to kill more than 2 of these (approx lvl 30-35) mobs without sleeping for hits, and CAN NOT tank more than 1 at a time without dying. A lvl 50 should be able to wax about 5-6 patrols (not courts) before a rest is needed and should be able to tank 2 at a time and survive. (My Opinion, it may stink I don't know )

POSSIBLE solution : Set damage according to whether a person is grouped. I know there's a way to check this because you can only be in 1 group at a time. This way you could tweak a persons damage up slightly when not grouped to allow the solo stuff (refer to definition of solo above) but decrease it when grouped to keep the group balance. Which, as I've seen, is about right for groups.

[Gindipple]

My immediate thought on this is bring another group member like a cleric maybe, and do twice as many mobs in the time and split the cash to even it out.
But one thing you said is very true. You can't always find that other person to group with.
You're idea does have some merit.

[Tinnel]

It does have some merit, but you are also looking at one class. There "are" classes capable of soloing "some" things to a higher degree. Perhaps the issue should be the damage you are taking from a mob 15-20 levels lower than you and how much damage it isn't taking from you. I'm sure your idea could be balanced, but as soon as a warrior figures out he can do enough damage alone and get exp and not have to share it with a cleric, guess what, clerics will get !exp and so on with other tank dependent classes. My recommendation is invest some time in an alt character to do your exploring and pilfering . Perhaps a necro or conjie. That is all. Talk amongst yourselves.

T

[Fezbozz]

I think a warrior should be able to solo things 10 or 15 levels lower then him easy. Tinnel I think you over look one thing killing mobs that far way from your level doesn't get that warrior much exp so I don't think the exp thing is a real problem. As long as they still need help killing mobs that do get them decent exp they will still need groups.

[Tinnel]

My point exactly, it's a damage/AC issue. If you make a solo person do more damage than in a group you have to let them have that from the get go. So if a warrior can do enough damage to do an acceptable amount of exp without needing to heal, why the hell would he drag a caster along that he has to let pray/mem. He won't he'll take the damage bonus and run.

T

[silvea]

I'm gone say a few things about this.....

First of all, warriors can solo a lot of stuff, even at they'r own level, it are just not warrior class mobs, I seen some warriors beating the hell out of wizards of they'r own level. So soloing is to know what you can and can not do.

Second, if a wizard starts to solo some things, it takes ages to kill it, cast, flee, heal, mem, enter (and flee again mob was to quick), heal, enter, cast, flee, oops beaten up, so reastart fight.

Third, the only class that was able to solo a bit desently was downgraded a lot, this was the conjurer, a big ellie, keep it stoned and cast that few lightning bolts, by the time you run out of stones and bolts, the ellie is about to die, so you flee for a remem. It took also ages to kill a mob, when I was lvl 34 it took me 45 minuts to kill a warrior class mob that was about level 36. Now they downgraded ellies they can not solo again, they are now even so weak they even can't deliver a desent tank.

So stop this muttering and choose your kills better, warriors got a great advantage, its called bash, and casters got a great problem, they got a low to hit. Make use of this, find your wizard mobs. I know where a few of thoes single class wizard mobs are with even desent equipment on it.

greetings,

Silvea alias Almile

[cherzra]

Wrong, Silvea.

The classes which solod stuff last wipe around, were CASTERS. Enchanters, necs, conjurers, druids. Warriors never solod anything except the lvl 30-35 things mentioned above for some petty cash (possible exception for paladins with their cheese weapon), whereas the classes mentioned hitherto could solo practically anything, even if it had guards. Black eyepatch? Polkadot cloak? Name it and it was solod. Cough blind heal pets paralysis big damage etc cough. Bash? Does nothing remotely enabling you to solo anything.

This time around it will be the exact same thing. Therefor, I don't think it is unreasonable to ask the question above why it is impossible for a warrior to solo two lvl 35 mobs at the same time.

[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 05-04-2001).]

[Lokke]

Well Silver is right I must say. Warriors must be afraid of that "surrounded by flames" message or something. Bash is the key, and fighting against equal or higher level caster mobs is TOTALLY possible for both cash and exp. I have done it, and I have seen it done over and over. Trolls especially *poke Cherzra*. Troll warriors would do runs in the tower solo, they could take down the priest, the black mage, and some based on EQ would do the Arch.
As was made clear by Silver and restated by me, you have to choose you mobs a bit better. Fighting a couple mobs that are your level plus a 1/2 should beat you pretty good, maybe not kill you but it better be a damn good/close fight. Pick your mobs better. If some are kicker your ass, go elsewhere. This mud has many creators and not all of them place the same AC/Hit roll/HPs to the same class/level mob in their zones. As a warrior I would suggest you look for some caster classes, they will have the same amount of cash, less hps, and not hit you as much, however the damage could be worse if you miss a bash or two Hence the goods with the bads.
My 2 cents.

Lucky Lokke

[Tilandal]

The soloing ability of necros, conjies, and druids has been greatly reduced. At this point it is exsessivly painful for mages to solo highlevel mobs. It requires a great deal of felling remmeing over and over again. That is not to say it is not possible but it is just as painful for mages as it is for warriors now. Realy with a cojie earth mental at only 5-600 hp's at level 50 its not easy to solo. Necro wraths can no longer be stoned, druids lost mentals and treants dont tank well. Enchanters can still solo but its always 1 mob at a time and usualy there is a great deal of meming involved.

[Guest]

Tilandal,

Wraiths can still be stoned, they just won't stone themselves. Big difference.

[belleshel]

Just find other mobs to kill. This is, and always will be a group oriented mud and to do that mobs have to be balanced for this. If your solo and have to sleep between mobs, sleep, if you want to kill at a faster pace..go kill smaller mobs quicker. You can always find something on the mud to kill for cash (no matter the level or class), it just might not be at an optimal rate solo.
Belle

Killing 2 good warriors at the same time, is going to be hard, even for an excellent one.

[Werg]

I think *some* soloing is necessary and wouldn't be unbalancing. Regardless of the class. I mean, a Barbarian warrior only a lvl or 2 below a podling, should be able to kick it's ass. A gnome invoker only a lvl or 2 below a podling, should be able to kick it's ass. So of course, they each should be able to kick quite a few podlings asses in a row without rest/mem/whatever. Now what happens when these 2 get together? Well, they kick the podlings asses twice as fast, twice as many, and with way less rests/mems. Resulting in faster exp. In previous incarnations of the mud, I have always gotten faster/better exp when grouped than when solo.

And on another note, I'm against the tweaking of your damage or whatever when you are solo only. It doesn't make alot of sense. And it is highly twinkable.

"Ok, everyone knows there assignments, disbanding."

[This message has been edited by Werg (edited 05-04-2001).]

[Galkar]

One thing that always bothered me.....

I kill a podling, and get say 100 exp points
It takes me 4 spells for example

I group with someone, we kill the podling in half that time, and we each get 50 exp points, using 2 spells each. Then, we kill another in the other half of that time, and we each get 50 exp points again with the same spells....

Now, unless exp varies per mob, shouldn't the exp and cash flow be about the same? The main advantage I see in grouping is being able to kill harder mobs that you can't solo, like those with nice eq. People say constantly that grouping gives faster exp, faster money... It just seems to me it would be about the same.... could someone clarify the situation for me?

G

[Sarvis]

Well... that's pretty true at lower levels. Unless you've got a big enough group to kill some mobs a few levels higher than what you can solo grouping doesn't gain you much... other than people to chat with.

At higher levels though it becomes harder and harder to solo things. (Unless you are a twink with kickass eq. For instance at lvl 31 last wipe I could barely kill the giant bugs on BGR, which I think conned easy for me... yet me and Frensolith together could take out umm... those red things I can't remember the name of in that place I can't remember the name of... in the middle of lake skeldrach... heh. Anyways... those red things were pretty good exp for me, whereas the giant bugs were almost worthless except as skill practice really.

Of course really good eq helps... when MPlor let me borrow a set of really really good eq I was able to solo those red things (ghasts? no... zombies?) but I could get into a group on that Ship headed to HP and kill even bigger things with a couple mages. So at higher levels grouping is pretty much necessary... heh.

Sarvis

PS. I know I just rambled a lot... but it's friday and my brain is dying from being used all week.

[Galok Icewolf]

also... grouping gives a % bonus to the exp offa the mob kill.

So if you killed it solo it would give you 100 for double the time.
but if you group with another it would give you each 55 for 1/2 the time

As always figures are not exact....

[Galkar]

Ahh, I didn't know there was a % bonus for grouping Thx!

[Sartorix]

Group size doesn't matter in this version of the mud now..
There is no 'penalty' for having a group of 10 instead of a group of 7 and so on.

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[This message has been edited by Sartorix (edited 05-04-2001).]

[Fezbozz]

You guys are all kinda off the point of the first post. He never really said anything about doing a bunch of solo exp.He means warriors should be able to solo stuff for money algin work and exploring not exp. Tinnel that is my point what he ios asking for doesn't effect exp groups.

[Tinnel]

Fez bud, I think you're missing my point.

Sekon said:

"POSSIBLE solution : Set damage according to whether a person is grouped. I know there's a way to check this because you can only be in 1 group at a time. This way you could tweak a persons damage up slightly when not grouped to allow the solo stuff (refer to definition of solo above) but decrease it when grouped to keep the group balance. Which, as I've seen, is about right for groups."

Now call me greedy but if I'm playing a warrior and want to whack exp at max time, I'm gonna say stuff the cleric or caster, I'm gonna take the damage bonus from said possible solution above and whack and then rest. I don't have to drag along someone else, I don't have to wait for them to pray. I whack till I can't...sleep....and start all over again. I'm either misinterpreting this or overexaggerating it. Whichever it is I wanna know where the hell Fez is at and where he's gonna be at beta . Peace.

T

[Sekon/Fanil]

Tinnel, that is not what I'm suggestion. your assuming that damage is tweaked hih enought to do solo XP. I'm talking about mobs that are so 15 levels below me. Now how much exp U think I'm gonna get off of em??

Fez. You hit it on the head. No Exp should require a group. and my suggestion wouldnot affext that at all as long as the solo damage wasn't set too high.

[Tinnel]

Then it's an issue of how much damage you should be doing to and taking from a certain level mob, not upping or lowering damage based on group status.

T

[Sarell]

Warrior damage has been downgraded i believe?..just to clear up?....

I did a gaggle of soloing with my warrior. One thing, guard in IC are not a very good money venture to begin with ...they freakin hurt hehe... try killing something with stuff to sell? ....

Alignment... well i pretty sure any decent warrior can take on all of WD graveyard / faerie no worries?..how's your hitall?..

Exploring?....ouch!!! change to druid like I did hehe....eagles can walk further than barbs and then word back home hehe...But seriously... exploring on a group based mud has nothing to do with damage I think, combat something you really trying to avoid?

The problem of fighting 2 mobs at once?...well.. it all a thing of balance really? I dont think fighting 2 warrior mobs that are smaller than you should be too easy...they still decent warriors, one will bash you then they both can smite you...seems pretty fair to me, druids _used to_ kick ass for this in IC I admit due to a certain ...thing... Um Um... I really dont think it that much of a prob for warriors from my experience, a little ranger or thief is good, I live in aus so I know all about being on when there are only 5 folk else on. It sucks yer... And i guess this brings about that problem of not being able to do anything with your warrior at these times... Like if you do want to do a little bit of exp, I think warrior should do enough damage to hurt something OK, not to mow hrough the whole of IC tho, I know HP/IC i used to clean up a gaggle of mobs before resting...which was usually only while waiting for pop anyhow. If the damage is really that awful, that killing a mob is just ridiculous solo then it got to be looked at. But again guess think about if it really that bad, a warrior is the BEST tank by far, how about taking along the lvl 25 druid who cant do anything useful by themselves? they can do some dam and heal for you hehe....But agian I re-iterate if damage is that bad that you can't take out stuff at all on solo it does need some work. Mobs do have A LOT of hp hehe...

Giving warriors a non-grouped dam bonus would be bad. Seen how fast the warriors are leveling already?...I really want to get into a group before I have barkskin hehe

The other thing to keep in mind is over all balance, FACT warriors are always in zoning groups. There are some classes that you can play around with more solo like rangers, druids, necros, conjies, shaman, pally...note these are not the essential group classes but mixes of damage tanking utility etc...If you find yourself always alone, perhaps it a good idea to try one of these clases out.

This all just a big rant btw, off top of head, so I probably wronf in a few instances.. Specially not sure just how low warrior damage is now hehe...(tho I know they doing more than low level druid overall hehe)

Lots of Love
Sarell/Ladak/etc ... aka Patrick

[moritheil]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>Wrong, Silvea.

The classes which solod stuff last wipe around, were CASTERS. Enchanters, necs, conjurers, druids. Warriors never solod anything except the lvl 30-35 things mentioned above for some petty cash (possible exception for paladins with their cheese weapon), whereas the classes mentioned hitherto could solo practically anything, even if it had guards. Black eyepatch? Polkadot cloak? Name it and it was solod. Cough blind heal pets paralysis big damage etc cough. Bash? Does nothing remotely enabling you to solo anything.

This time around it will be the exact same thing. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoa, whoa, whoa, DRUIDS? Sure, we soloed, for align, but if you're telling me that we could efficiently solo for exp at anything below level 21 or above level 27 you really don't know what you're talking about. I regularly got < 70 hitpoint wraithforms, and my power and wisdom were really good. Even a shaman's mentals were twice as big.

Enchanters risked a lot soloing; it took guts. Maybe it wasn't hard if you took a voker too, but that isn't soloing. Conjies were patheticized, and are even more so now (sorry but it's true, they are mere shadows of what they used to be). Necros definitely soloed, but hey, they were in a class by themseleves.

Sorry, but bash really does let you solo stuff. Maybe not eq, but you could definitely do cash or such a lot easier as a warrior than a druid. MS wizzies could probably be soloed for exp by warriors with the right eq and/or potions. And a troll warrior is the epitome of soloing - insane stats and regen. Look at other factors. What happens if a caster dies? Painful process of regaining a level. What if a warrior dies? Oh, no biggie, it'll be back in no time. Warriors have easier exp tables, a 30 times easier time as a lowbie, etc., etc.

Warriors solo. Casters hide behind them.