I've been wondering and I think this has been brought up before. I really think that rogues should receive some kind of message that tells them whether they are actually sneaking or hiding. It would really help imho to know whether you succeed or failed.
Its kinda like being a warrior and bashing a casting mob but not receiving a message whether or not you landed it.
My thoughts
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The halfling
Rogues sneak/hide
When you hide in the shadows, how sure you can be that you are well hidden? you can not see what somebody else sees, only guess that. And if you sneak, you still hear yourself (your breath, your heart, every twig on the way) And hear it louder then it actualy is. This will confuse you also. Still a message for a total failure of the skill would be cool.
You used to be able to tell when you were hiding by doing a 'who' on yourself. If you were hidden, you weren't on the who list. The gods changed that a long time ago because they didn't want you to know if you were properly hidden or not. I can't remember the reasons why, but I think it was similar to what Silvea said. Of course when I hide, or sneak in real life, I can pretty much tell if I am well hidden or sneaking, or if someone can hear me, regardless of my breathing and heartbeat because I can control the sounds of those things and block them out on top of that.
Some kind of message I think should be added, but make the message only about %85 accurate or something, so if you get the message your are more than likely hiding or sneaking, but you aren't totaly sure. And get a different message or no message at all, if you fail completely.
-Werg "where'd he go?"
Some kind of message I think should be added, but make the message only about %85 accurate or something, so if you get the message your are more than likely hiding or sneaking, but you aren't totaly sure. And get a different message or no message at all, if you fail completely.
-Werg "where'd he go?"
If im a master at hide/sneak.. why wouldnt i know if i was hidden/sneaking or not. its not like it would be unbalancing for me to get a message about it. you see when you snap out of invisibility. you see when you miss a bash. you see when abort a spell you see when you miss a backstab.. the list goes on an on. proper use of these 2 skills is hard to gauge if you dont know if you are even sucsessful or not.
please add a message for sneak/hide failure/success.
Nitania
[This message has been edited by Nitania (edited 07-02-2001).]
please add a message for sneak/hide failure/success.
Nitania
[This message has been edited by Nitania (edited 07-02-2001).]
Nitania, the difference between the various skills you listed and sneak/hide is that bash, backstab, spells, etc. tend to have immediate consequences, especially if you fail. With sneak, you could just keep trying to sneak until you succeed and then waltz past (well, laggily waltz past anyway until the skill got higher) aggro mobs. It's not as much of an issue with hide since you can't move around while using it. And while you might be able to have a good sense of how much light you're in and how much noise you're making to human (or elven, or dwarven, etc.), there are a lot of ways that monsters and denizens of the realms could detect you that you might not be as capable of masking. Gnolls can sniff you out, lots of creatures could see your heat pattern, creatures low to the ground could sense the vibrations caused by your steps, etc. Even an expert of stealth would never be able to be entirely sure of being stealthy enough.
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Grungar
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Walk across rice paper without leaving any trace. Yeah.
Sneak should get a message, hide would be nice. Right now, the only things I use hide for are attempting to backstab things (I just have my group tell me if I'm hidden or not) and popping out and randomly surprising PCs.
I certainly know when I'm sneaking around the house whether I'm successful at it or not. I know all the floorboards and steps that make noise, and can usually scare the crap out of my younger brother (especially when he's completely engrossed in a game like Thief: The Dark Project or System Shock 2. Those get the best reactions!) or know if I've been making too much noise.
As rogues, we are trained in stealth. It's basically what keeps us alive (hitpoints and armor sure don't for long) and allows us to provide a living for ourselves. We have a good chance of living if that silly noble doesn't notice that he ah dropped some gold on the ground. It's even better when he doesn't even hear us come through.
A message for sneak is more feasible than for hide for the reasons Treladian pointed out. But have you ever played hide & go seek? Or gone paintballing? You generally have a good idea as to how well you're hidden, how covered you are, how many people notice you when they walk by, etc.
sneak
Ok, you'll try to move more quietly.
n
You move silently north.
scare moritheil
You scare Moritheil, his hair standing straight up.
Moritheil wets his pants in fear.
So many uses!
Enough of my silly nonsense. Bedtime for this dwarf.
- Grungar "Peekaboo! Say Hello to My Dagger Too!" Forgefire
Sneak should get a message, hide would be nice. Right now, the only things I use hide for are attempting to backstab things (I just have my group tell me if I'm hidden or not) and popping out and randomly surprising PCs.
I certainly know when I'm sneaking around the house whether I'm successful at it or not. I know all the floorboards and steps that make noise, and can usually scare the crap out of my younger brother (especially when he's completely engrossed in a game like Thief: The Dark Project or System Shock 2. Those get the best reactions!) or know if I've been making too much noise.
As rogues, we are trained in stealth. It's basically what keeps us alive (hitpoints and armor sure don't for long) and allows us to provide a living for ourselves. We have a good chance of living if that silly noble doesn't notice that he ah dropped some gold on the ground. It's even better when he doesn't even hear us come through.
A message for sneak is more feasible than for hide for the reasons Treladian pointed out. But have you ever played hide & go seek? Or gone paintballing? You generally have a good idea as to how well you're hidden, how covered you are, how many people notice you when they walk by, etc.
sneak
Ok, you'll try to move more quietly.
n
You move silently north.
scare moritheil
You scare Moritheil, his hair standing straight up.
Moritheil wets his pants in fear.
So many uses!
Enough of my silly nonsense. Bedtime for this dwarf.
- Grungar "Peekaboo! Say Hello to My Dagger Too!" Forgefire
I am totally against this.
I am playing a halfling rogue in a 3rd edition campaign right now, and when I roll my sneak or hide rolls I don't know if I succeed or not.
My dm just goes, '42? okay.'
"Am I sneaking?"
'You think so.'
It adds a risk to a very useful skill.
How can *you* determine whether or not a mob (that you may know nothing about its abilities) can detect you? All you can do is do your best and hope for the best!
Jurdex
Dornax
I am playing a halfling rogue in a 3rd edition campaign right now, and when I roll my sneak or hide rolls I don't know if I succeed or not.
My dm just goes, '42? okay.'
"Am I sneaking?"
'You think so.'
It adds a risk to a very useful skill.
How can *you* determine whether or not a mob (that you may know nothing about its abilities) can detect you? All you can do is do your best and hope for the best!
Jurdex
Dornax
Uh, I thought I said that there wasn't a problem with hide giving a message when successful (and probably should give a message if you come out of hiding for whatever reason) but that knowing for sure that you were sneaking to get by aggro mobs was another issue . . .
The way it's implemented on the mid, sneak is more than just trying to move silently. It's more like a combination of move silently and hiding in shadows as you move along. And while you can tell how much light you're in and whether you've been making noise where you're walking, you don't have as accurate knowledge of how alert or attuned to the surroundings someone else is. I do think there should be a message if you're successfully sneaking and then stop (I believe the duration ends eventually), preferbly with the chance to notice dependent on your skill.
The way it's implemented on the mid, sneak is more than just trying to move silently. It's more like a combination of move silently and hiding in shadows as you move along. And while you can tell how much light you're in and whether you've been making noise where you're walking, you don't have as accurate knowledge of how alert or attuned to the surroundings someone else is. I do think there should be a message if you're successfully sneaking and then stop (I believe the duration ends eventually), preferbly with the chance to notice dependent on your skill.
Hmmm . . . some mobs sense life don't they? I don't know how many rogues are aware of this, but sense life lets you see people sneaking, even when they're successful. Kind of like awareness, only more constant. That could add complications to success messages when you've got some mobs or players with sense life (or awareness for that matter) and some that don't in one room.
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Grungar
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Ohh ohh ohh ohh, I was doing some thinking, and I know that's a dangerous thing. My girlfriend has told me this many many times before. It almost always gets me into trouble. I just looked at the awareness skill helpfile. It says:
AWARENESS
Applied skill.
Syntax: awareness
Aggressive: No
Class/Level: Rogue 5th, Ranger 15th
A person with awareness is generally more in tune with his environment.
Awareness helps protect somewhat from backstabbing, it also allows Rangers
to auto-sneak in the woods, and gives a chance to see sneaking characters.
See also: SNEAK
This is all well and good, but wouldn't it be cool if aware were to tie in with our own sneak/hide skill? We'd have a better idea of our environment, how much noise we're making, etc, etc, etc.
Naptime.
- Grungar "Zzzzzzzz......" Forgefire
AWARENESS
Applied skill.
Syntax: awareness
Aggressive: No
Class/Level: Rogue 5th, Ranger 15th
A person with awareness is generally more in tune with his environment.
Awareness helps protect somewhat from backstabbing, it also allows Rangers
to auto-sneak in the woods, and gives a chance to see sneaking characters.
See also: SNEAK
This is all well and good, but wouldn't it be cool if aware were to tie in with our own sneak/hide skill? We'd have a better idea of our environment, how much noise we're making, etc, etc, etc.
Naptime.
- Grungar "Zzzzzzzz......" Forgefire
So I as a rogue would be so oblivious to my surroundings when I try to hide or sneak around. Like if I'm sneaking by someone I would imagine that I would some how look pretty oddly to anyone who I pass by. So I should see that odd looking expression on the people who I pass by. Similarly, hiding should also generate some kind of feedback when someone's walking by near you. If their gaze passes by where the rogue is hiding, it should linger a bit before moving on and that would indicate if they notice the rogue.
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Grungar
- Sojourner
- Posts: 967
- Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Somewhere on the east coast, usually.
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Exactly!
Think about it for a second, if you saw someone walking around on their tiptoes (I know rogues don't do this, least I don't. None of that pansy stuff for me. Big wonder my sneak skill is 30 something
) you'd gawk a bit. Or at least stare at them for a wee bit.
If you're sneaking around and you see someone look directly at you (especially if you lock eyes! *shudder*) while you are attempting to move without being seen or heard, you'd know (or at least have a feeling) that you've been detected.
Same goes with hiding.
I agree with you 100% Xizz.
Would this overpower or unbalance us? Heh. No. I'll still suck at sneaking
- Grungar "*bam bam bam bam* Ut oh, think I've been spotted" Forgefire
Think about it for a second, if you saw someone walking around on their tiptoes (I know rogues don't do this, least I don't. None of that pansy stuff for me. Big wonder my sneak skill is 30 something
) you'd gawk a bit. Or at least stare at them for a wee bit.If you're sneaking around and you see someone look directly at you (especially if you lock eyes! *shudder*) while you are attempting to move without being seen or heard, you'd know (or at least have a feeling) that you've been detected.
Same goes with hiding.
I agree with you 100% Xizz.
Would this overpower or unbalance us? Heh. No. I'll still suck at sneaking
- Grungar "*bam bam bam bam* Ut oh, think I've been spotted" Forgefire
I love this idea. If you were sneaking past someone in real life and they looked directly at you, it would be a pretty good indication that you've been made. I don't think knowing whether or not you've made it past someone without them seeing you is at all detrimental to the game. It's realistic. Also, I am the only rogue who finds it extremely frustrating to not know how long you're sneaking for? How do you know when to type sneak again?
- Azrael, Smurf's Bane
- Azrael, Smurf's Bane
Okay, I have a suggestion that might work for sneak.
Rogues, is there any real situation where you would _not_ want to be sneaking?
If not, then what about making sneak completely automatic, as something a rogue will just always try to do.
And then allow sneak to have a chance at succeeding or failing upon each room entry.
If sneak fails (and the rogue's sneak skill is good enough), tell the rogue 'You make some sort of noise as you move north.'
How would something like that do as far as allowing rogues to better use their skills without making them really twinkable?
Kinda thinking about this some more... (scary thought!)
Maybe rogues would find a use for not _always_ sneaking, so perhaps amend the sneak command as just a toggle for whether or not they'll be trying to sneak, and not have the chance of failure at that level.
Comments?
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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
Rogues, is there any real situation where you would _not_ want to be sneaking?
If not, then what about making sneak completely automatic, as something a rogue will just always try to do.
And then allow sneak to have a chance at succeeding or failing upon each room entry.
If sneak fails (and the rogue's sneak skill is good enough), tell the rogue 'You make some sort of noise as you move north.'
How would something like that do as far as allowing rogues to better use their skills without making them really twinkable?
Kinda thinking about this some more... (scary thought!)
Maybe rogues would find a use for not _always_ sneaking, so perhaps amend the sneak command as just a toggle for whether or not they'll be trying to sneak, and not have the chance of failure at that level.
Comments?
------------------
-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
Sort of like thosesilly elves when you're leading people outside?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
<B>Only real problem with always sneaking is that group leaders never know if you are there or if they left you behind.
Sarvis</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
<B>Only real problem with always sneaking is that group leaders never know if you are there or if they left you behind.
Sarvis</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
At least the elves that sneak follow the group even though the leader may not see them
Not so with rogues. every time i use sneak, i can no longer follow my group. This seems silly to me.
Why would a rogue ever use this skill if using it means getting left behind by the group because it wont let you follow?
Perhaps it can be changed alil so at least, like elf sneak you can follow your group while sneaking.
Nilan
Not so with rogues. every time i use sneak, i can no longer follow my group. This seems silly to me.
Why would a rogue ever use this skill if using it means getting left behind by the group because it wont let you follow?
Perhaps it can be changed alil so at least, like elf sneak you can follow your group while sneaking.
Nilan
While this may not be the solution you are looking for, as the sneak skill level increases, the lag from moving while sneaking reduces down. Once you hit 'very good' in sneak, you will be able to keep up with groups.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nilan:
<B>Not so with rogues. every time i use sneak, i can no longer follow my group. This seems silly to me.
Nilan</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nilan:
<B>Not so with rogues. every time i use sneak, i can no longer follow my group. This seems silly to me.
Nilan</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
First off, i dont see what the big deal is about not seeing if you are sneaking or hiding. personally i feel there is a fool proof way to know. if you get attacked, you failed.
I just have one question since somone brought up elf/ranger sneak. why is it that a level 1 ranger can move totally silently with no lag when i as a mid level rogue am given a chance to fail and only use sneak when im not grouped/traveling due to extensive lag because my sneak skill is low? why not just give them a sneak skill with penalties when they arent in nature settings.
(i dont know if rangers have constant woodland sneak or if its only elves, if they dont then please disreguard the second paragraph entirely)
just a thought from a jelous rogue.
Cirath - "wow, he didnt see me! no CR today! *splat*"
[This message has been edited by Cirath (edited 07-25-2001).]
I just have one question since somone brought up elf/ranger sneak. why is it that a level 1 ranger can move totally silently with no lag when i as a mid level rogue am given a chance to fail and only use sneak when im not grouped/traveling due to extensive lag because my sneak skill is low? why not just give them a sneak skill with penalties when they arent in nature settings.
(i dont know if rangers have constant woodland sneak or if its only elves, if they dont then please disreguard the second paragraph entirely)
just a thought from a jelous rogue.
Cirath - "wow, he didnt see me! no CR today! *splat*"
[This message has been edited by Cirath (edited 07-25-2001).]
<sarcasm>Hey! I got an idea. Why don't we make rogue poisons affect themselves early on in apply poison skill, like they accidentally spill it on themselves and get poison'd.</sarcasm>
Please, as if it isn't bad enough we have to deal w/ being incomplete, we have classes that outdo us whining about utility stuff.
Twyl
Please, as if it isn't bad enough we have to deal w/ being incomplete, we have classes that outdo us whining about utility stuff.
Twyl
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