Ranged Code

Archive of the Sojourn3 Ideas Forum.
rylan
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Postby rylan » Fri Aug 10, 2001 3:58 pm

I don't know.. I haven't commented on this stuff yet since I've just been reading the ideas. While it all sounds cool, I think 'called shots' or vital strike type skill with ranger ranged weps will be overpowered.
There are already supposed to be procing arrows and bows, so that will have some cool effects. To be honest I don't think rangers are going to need more perks to bows, especially since it seems like it'll unbalance things.
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Postby Grungar » Sat Aug 11, 2001 6:19 am

Plus, wouldn't any good archer already be aiming for eyes and throats and the soft underbelly of the hedgehog and all that stuff? Isn't that why it does such an insane amount of damage? A body only has so much surface area before it can be completely turned into a pincushion. Leave the vital striking to the rogues.

Just a silly rogue's opinion.

- Grungar "You throw a dart at a squirrel, it flies wildly and strikes the edge of the room" Forgefire
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Postby Elseenas » Sat Aug 11, 2001 10:25 pm

Yep, in archery you aim for good targets: you already have to focus to get around a shield and sometimes more serious armor (depending on your bow and what they are wearing).

I imagine that a RL comparsion would be a speed shoot: you have x amount of time to fire as many arrows as you can. You still aren't just trying to hit the target in these, but a specific point on the target (head, body, etc).

------------------

Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
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Postby Treladian » Sun Aug 12, 2001 1:35 am

Rylan: Just as there are tons of proc melee weapons in the game with various effects yet all sorts of special skills can be used in conjunction with them? Image Seriously though, weapon procs aren't the most dependable things and arrows especially since they break quite frequently. We carry about 400 to 500 arrows into a zone cause we KNOW we're gonna be losing a lot of them in the process.

Grungar: And technically any fighter that's competent should be attempting to disarm their opponent, knocking them down, and going for lowline kicks without really thinking about it. This isn't really about realism, it's about giving us something to actually do in combat that has some useful effect (unlike kick Image). Rangers are the only class that can generally just assist at the beginning of the fight and then watch TV, get food, or download porn until the next fight comes up without any real loss of effectiveness.
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Postby Grungar » Sun Aug 12, 2001 4:53 am

Sounds like a good deal you got goin there... I have to sit there and type circle or disarm or trip (when I get it) and stuff like that. No food or TV for me. Maybe I should make a ranger Image

I don't necessarily agree that every warrior would be trying to disarm their opponent. As a warrior, you'd be following a strategy: Let's see, this guy casts, so I'll keep him pinned to the ground to prevent him from doing so. His dagger doesn't do much damage to me, neither do his feeble hands. That other guy's too big for me to bash, so I'll slam my shield into his face, etc. On the odd chance that they see a good opportunity to disarm an opponent, they might take it, but I've not seen many warriors try to disarm mobs.

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Postby Tasan » Sun Aug 12, 2001 6:23 pm

I'm pretty sure Trel was talking about real fighting. In a real fight, any sort of weapon does more damage than bare hands(to the untrained)(don't gimme any BS about martial arts). If I'm fighting a guy with a knife, my main goal is to incapacitate the knife so I can focus on subduing my attacker.

As for what else he said, it's true, we really have nothing else to do during a fight than assist at the beginning, and perhaps watch for a switch. In the latter case, I'm not going to be kicking a mob and end up missing 80% of the time for a measly extra 25 damage, when I can leave myself open for rescues.

We're just looking for something more to do than assist, throw us a bone.

Twyl
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Postby Nilan » Sun Aug 12, 2001 8:53 pm

All you do is type assist????

Why? Whats wrong with, kick, bash, and spells you rangers got? Not to mention Windsongs, proccing weapons, and soon your proccing arrows????

Too many complaining rangers, me think. Just play and have fun.

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Postby Tasan » Mon Aug 13, 2001 2:35 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nilan:
<B>All you do is type assist????

Why? Whats wrong with, kick, bash, and spells you rangers got? Not to mention Windsongs, proccing weapons, and soon your proccing arrows????

Too many complaining rangers, me think. Just play and have fun.

Nilan

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bash... hrm yeah, lemme think about kissing the floor some.

Kick - see above = worthless

Spells - Utility since nature is scarce(thank god for all the metropolis')

Got anymore good ones?

Twyl "Your beautiful full-circle kick misses an incapacatated blue whale by a mile" Twinshadow
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Postby Nokie » Mon Aug 13, 2001 2:44 am

Not to be a big meanie, but you're really selling yourself short if you think Rangers can't bash. With a pbone shield and some acutal effort put into developing the bash skill, rangers are very good bashers.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tasan:
Bash... hrm yeah, lemme think about kissing the floor some.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



------------------
Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
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Postby Nilan » Mon Aug 13, 2001 4:42 am

Gee Twyl
you make rangers sound like such a pathetic class. Tell me why do so many people play such a worthless class???

Its a mystery to me. I know what rangers can do. and i know, and before you all tell me this isnt Toril, Nilan, Isnt this supposed to be better than Toril??? Alot of time supposedly went in to balancing the classes. I just find it hard to believe that you rangers are as week and pathetic as you guys make yourself out to be.

Nilan

***who knows rangers do way more than just hit assist***
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Postby Ladorn » Mon Aug 13, 2001 9:02 am

Why is it so hard to believe that rangers really aren't that good? I too am boggled why so many people choose to play rangers. If anyone takes time and do some research on the class(This means you evils.) you will notice our bash, rescue, parry, riposte, double attack is not nearly as good as a warrior's or pal/anti's. If you check help files you will notice how useless our 9th and 10th circle spells are compared to pals/antis. Our innates are wood carving(Replaced minor create spell for rp'ing purpose I assume.) and innate tame mount(I have yet to use it since we lost flank blocking.) Compare that to lay hands or even lifetap. Consider taming mounts works once a day too and displays no message if you've used it up yet for that day. I will admit rangers can solo better than rogues and warriors, maybe even anti's. But solo exp sucks after a certain point regardless of which one of these classes you play. Rangers are good role players. If your group is weak on tanks might as well bring a ranger or two. If you are weak on rogues/invokers do the same. But for pure tanking a warrior or pal/anti will do the job much better. For pure damage get a rogue or invoker. Although rogues don't have spells poisons are quite nifty. Also, however random vital strike may be, it still has the potential to bash dragons. I don't think any other class can do this. BTW Nokie is correct about bashing. I have a pbone shield and 50 in the bash skill(Which is max I am pretty sure) and I hardly ever fail, but while bashing my damage is less than a pal/anti or warrior because my double attack is capped so low. Plus they bash better at a lower level. I hope this doesn't come off as a rant or complaint because I am having a ton of fun doing zones with my friends. I'm just trying to stick up for the other "lost" rangers out there. Oh yeah has any ranger out there found an off hand proc'ing weapon besides valk sword? I thought that was one of the upgrades.

As to why so many goodies still play rangers. I guess the lack of high level tanks and lack of high level invokers might have caused rangers to become popular, because we can sort fill both roles. But every ranger knows once real tanks level up and more rogues/invokers level up, we're outta a job.

I'm a die hard ranger. This is my 4th 50th level ranger. I have made no other alt past 41. I just love playing one, but we're just not as powerful as many people make us out to be. If anyone wants to talk some more send me a tell.

Have fun mud'ers!

PS The Windsong quest is bugged and I believe the Immorts have been notified. This means no archery and Windsong atm.
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Postby Vipplin » Mon Aug 13, 2001 1:16 pm

1. Yup, I think playing a ranger is fun. I used to think I was pretty powerful too, until I grouped with a rogue the other day who was 5 levels lower than me and hit more often and harder, even without using circle etc, and I have 25/9 hit/dam which I thought was not bad for a mid-level. I now understand that I'm not that powerful.

2. I still love the rp feeling of a ranger, I agree with Ladorn - I think this is why most people play rangers.

3. In any case, of course ranger abilities are weak right now, they are not supposed to be on par with other classes yet. Neither are conjurers (although their plight is more clear) and bards. The gods know this, it has been long discussed, the main decisions have been made on a fix. Rangers ARE underpowered, it is a FACT. I try not to complain, I just wait and make suggestions, because the fix is coming.

4. And just to make sure there is no mistake, kick *is* a useless skill, it is only there as a temptation. You get so bored watching the rounds go by that you just *have* to do *something*. So, you kick. Then one of several things happens:

First, you miss or hit your kick. It doesn't matter which, really.

Second, either a mob switches to a vulnerable target, you drop your weapon, or it suddenly becomes 'time to flee'.

Third, because you are lagged from your useless kick, you fail to rescue, retrieve weapon, or flee in time.

6. Friends don't let friends use kick. Bash can be useful, it may be worth the lag for people whose bashes can hit, but kick? Just say 'no'.

7. Topic: ranged code
Comment: please give some kind of special shot, usefulness equiv of trip, balance however needed

Vadian

P.S. Almost forgot... it is silly to say proccing bows/arrows will replace secondary abilities for archery. I don't see rogues giving up (nor should they have to) assassinate, poison, trip, garrote, or vital strike, and they get proccing weapons.

[This message has been edited by Vipplin (edited 08-13-2001).]
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Postby cherzra » Mon Aug 13, 2001 1:18 pm

I use kick!
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Postby belleshel » Mon Aug 13, 2001 1:28 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tasan:
<B> Bash... hrm yeah, lemme think about kissing the floor some.
Kick - see above = worthless
Spells - Utility since nature is scarce(thank god for all the metropolis')
Got anymore good ones?
Twyl "Your beautiful full-circle kick misses an incapacatated blue whale by a mile" Twinshadow</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im sorry Twyl but its time for you to learn your class. My bash on standing mobs (pbone makes bashing, the only place where high 50+ skill seems to count is for gbashes) is as reliable as any warrior or paladin.

Kick - yes more than worthless, it lags you so you can't rescue, can't get weapon back, it doesn't hit very often, it doesnt stop switches/casting ect. Basically its something to do when bored during exping. A small chance to interupt spells would be cool (If you just got kicked in the face you might stutter a bit). But kick just seems like a relic for ages past that was left in. But warriors have this skill too..everyone knows this going in.

Spells - Our spells are hugely upgraded from last time around, and if you can't figure out how to use them effectively...Im sorry.

Recap - We can tank some, rescue some, bash some, damage some..its called utility, get used to it Image With the addition of archery our class should fit in perfectly. If you want to see changes, don't just post 'this sucks this sucks and this sucks' post some changes that could possibly be implemented and not totally screw up the balance. I only play a ranger, so of course I like the idea of upgrades for them...but have you done a good who 40 s lately? Recently 4/7 7/21 5/15 were rangers..if its really as crappy a class as people make it to be, why do so many play the class? You can't really upgrade a class that already dominates the who list most nights very easily and keep balance.
As for losing our spots in zoning.. I don't see it, zones are usually done by groups of friends, I'd much rather take treladian, then some rogue I've never seen before. If anyone takes our spots it will be paladins, and other rangers Image

Archery at average!,
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Postby Vipplin » Mon Aug 13, 2001 1:31 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
I use kick!</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cherzra, I am starting a 12-step group to deal with this problem. Mostly rangers will be in attendance, but warriors are welcome. Meetings will be at 3pm Sundays at the chapel annex...

Vadian understands your pain.
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Postby Tilandal » Mon Aug 13, 2001 1:36 pm

Its silly to say we get bash and kick so we have stuff to do. For anyone who missed it aimed shot would be able to be used with ranged weapons only. While using ranged you cant kick or bash and most of the time you cant use a shield (there are 1 handed bows but they suck and break every few rounds) so even if you could bash you would never hit. The point of having an aimed shot was to add depth to ranged beyond afire and watching for stray arrows. Also This skill would be given to rogues to (perhapse at a higher level) so its not as if evils are missing out on something.
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Postby Vipplin » Mon Aug 13, 2001 1:42 pm

Holy smokes I'm posting alot here, sorry.

Posted by Belleshel:
...have you done a good who 40 s lately? Recently 4/7 7/21 5/15 were rangers..if its really as crappy a class as people make it to be, why do so many play the class? You can't really upgrade a class that already dominates the who list most nights...

Could this be because many other classes play anon? I don't think the who list is a good way to see who is playing. On the contrary. What it shows you is the people who aren't getting bugged to be in groups: rangers. I use an alias that does a 'who' for most people I know. I do this because many are anon and don't show up on the normal listing.

That's just my interpretation of the 'high who' phenomenon, and I could of course be wrong. *shrug*

Vadian
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Postby belleshel » Mon Aug 13, 2001 2:05 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vipplin:
<B>Holy smokes I'm posting alot here, sorry.

Posted by Belleshel:
...have you done a good who 40 s lately? Recently 4/7 7/21 5/15 were rangers..if its really as crappy a class as people make it to be, why do so many play the class? You can't really upgrade a class that already dominates the who list most nights...

Could this be because many other classes play anon? I don't think the who list is a good way to see who is playing. On the contrary. What it shows you is the people who aren't getting bugged to be in groups: rangers. I use an alias that does a 'who' for most people I know. I do this because many are anon and don't show up on the normal listing.

That's just my interpretation of the 'high who' phenomenon, and I could of course be wrong. *shrug*

Vadian</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good points..althought Image
My who actually checks for known high level anons Image... Who is the only way for us to get a picture of who is playing..and regardless of anons, a lot of rangers are playing, its hard from a balance standpoint to justify any major upgrades to a class that is already very popular.

Belle
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Aug 13, 2001 2:38 pm

Popular doesn't necessarily equal balanced Belle. Most of the high level rangers have _always_ played rangers, even back when they did suck in Soj2. I've always played a ranger, so have many other people. I've also always played a human ranger despite the fact that he's even weaker than a half/grey elf ranger. Just because that's what I like to play.


Now, as for called shots and such. I mentioned a long time ago that we should have some archery related skill that could interrupt a spell. Not bash a mob, or stun it or anything, just force the current spell to stutter. Would make rangers a really nice backup for missed bashes. I'd certainly be willing to trade kick for it... since Cherzra and Nilan seem to think kick rocks so much. Image

Oh yeah, Nilan... you are right, we _can_ kick and bash during a fight, but no one ever seems to notice when I stop doing all that and start web browsing while doing exp. Because let's face it, if every kick misses then what's the point?

Sarvis
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Postby belleshel » Mon Aug 13, 2001 3:04 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
Popular doesn't necessarily equal balanced Belle.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It certainly doesn't, but its harder to justify upgrades for popular classes, its also understandable how evils that don't know the class would jump on the 'rangers are whiners' bandwagon when they see a lot of high level rangers on frequently.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Now, as for called shots and such. I mentioned a long time ago that we should have some archery related skill that could interrupt a spell.
[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im all for proc arrows, a skill like this seems very powerful thou (considering that you can't bash/sp many mobs).

Again we have to wait and see what archery has in store for us, with it we will be the top physical damage dealers in game, its also tough to justify any upgrades until we've seen the full class. (Upgrade elementalists they are weak! kinda deal).

I'll be the first person screaming at the immortals if archery doesn't live up to its billing Image,
Belle
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Postby Tasan » Mon Aug 13, 2001 4:46 pm

Woot, I don't know how to play my class, congratulations to me after 6 years of playing ranger. Kiss my F*in ass.

I bash when needed, the fact of the matter is people would rather bring a warrior, end of story. I'm sorry but I'm not gonna accept any opinion the 3 or 4 of you have that actually got above 46.

Bash, as much as I try to notch it, is sick and sad. Like Ladorn said, I'm better off dualing against anything but a caster, and I need to pray before taking on a caster that I won't miss.

But whatever, the hard simple fact is, our class isn't needed for any group(much like conjurers/bards/btchanters). I can suggest all the changes I want, but I'm not about to expect any of them to be implemented. We are all waiting for archery, and when it comes in and turns out that the 15 of us over 36 still can't get into groups, the amount of rangers playing will drop significantly.

It's not worth my time or effort to even post on this stuff anymore.

Have good moshpitting.
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Postby Ladorn » Mon Aug 13, 2001 6:58 pm

Belleshel is right, we can do a little of everything, but we don't accel at anyone thing. Well the one thing was supposed to be archery, but that has been delayed, which I don't mind at all. I'm curious to see how far stray arrows would wander, because if it's still 3 rooms away, I probably won't be using it much except for luring or if my globe fades.

As far as ranger upgrades, I suggest our dodge skill cap be a little higher. I don't understand how a pal/anti who spends most of their time on a horse can dodge better than a ranger who frolicks about in the woods dodging and chasing animals. I think the rest of the skills are ok. I would also like to see some unique spells to the class. I have already suggested a spell called summon familiar which can be the same as summon shade for illusionists. Also something that I don't think would make us overly powerful is self-only haste for 10th circle. This would become useful during long fights or when short on hastes. I think even with haste our dam is about on par with an unhasted rogue. It would at least distance us from unhasted pals/antis.

Pals/antis do massive dam because they use 2h weapons which have high dierolls and also they can get away with a 14-16 hitroll, meaning their dam can be 34-40 easily. So when unhasted they will do more dam than us, and when both hasted we do slightly more. I'd say on ave 15-25 points of damage more per round. But if you figure they tank more therefore getting ripostes and I have no clue what bonues they get while mounted, I have no idea who does more damage. I really think ranger dam is similar to anti/pal dam, while they get better innates, more useful high level spells and better skills.

Also I have suggested an enhanced bless spell, maybe giving +2/+1 and -2ss. Also high circle, maybe 9th? We need spells to make us hit harder. We used to be masters of melee and also decent tanks because before when we could only get 1 defensive skill per round, but nowadays it's very easy to get multiple ones to go off, therefore our tanking ability has dropped off significantly.

I want to see elementalists and bards worked on first. Then archery. After that I think rangers need to be looked at a little. I have always preferred melee to archery anyways. I really hope we get some sort of melee upgrades and/or some spells.

I'm sorry to make ranger sound whiny, but the fact is we may be more eq dependant than any class out there, because our skills, spells and innates are lacking. If anyone disagrees, I'll be happy to hear them out.

PS I do kick a lot actually, mostly during exp. My kick is up to 76. And there's two types of landed kicks. The message that says hits in the solar plexus actually lags a mob for 1 round, much like a shieldpunch. The other kick just does dam.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Aug 13, 2001 7:10 pm

Right now, the most popular classes are the ones that got changed in alpha the most.

What classes are lacking? Warriors and clerics, did someone say? And why on earth is that, because they're not powerful?

Nah, because they're ho-hum.

- Ragorn
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Postby Dinggle » Tue Aug 14, 2001 2:18 am

Tasan i think that after 6 years you would have realized that there are only 4 classes that are NEEDED in a group (used to be 3)
Warrior
Cleric
Chanter
Voker

that's it. i've dont 4 man tower, 4 man ship, i've done 6 man 2nd gatehouse.

if you want to play a class that's NEEDED, play one of those 4. after 6 years of a warrior i cant do it anymore, and 5 years as an unneeded assassin/rogue i cant do that anymore so now i play a chanter, am needed quite often and am enjoying the hell out of it.

if the class frustrates you so much, then please stop with theh foul attitude and talk on the forums and try something else. a LOT of people from the old days are trying new things this time around and we are all better for it.

if the game is not fun anymore then dont play for awhile. it's only a game. i'm sure bell's comment about learning the class was not an attack but a sincere point of advice that maybe there are other ways to play it. i dunno, never played ranger, but if he was talking to me i dont think i would have been quite so mad about it.
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Postby Tasan » Tue Aug 14, 2001 3:49 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dinggle:
if the class frustrates you so much, then please stop with theh foul attitude and talk on the forums and try something else. a LOT of people from the old days are trying new things this time around and we are all better for it.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great good for them. I have alts, I play them. Fact is I like playing a ranger.

With that said, I'm not gonna post at all on any "ranger" related topics. I'm too "foul" mooded.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">it's only a game. i'm sure bell's comment about learning the class was not an attack but a sincere point of advice that maybe there are other ways to play it. i dunno, never played ranger, but if he was talking to me i dont think i would have been quite so mad about it.</font>


Good for you, you are a credit to the human race.

As for seeing that as a point of advice, heh.

If I told you you should be gay because you got dumped by your gf would you be pissed?

Twyl "consent blung; You are now a member of take no prisoner..." Twinshadow
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Postby Frensolith » Tue Aug 14, 2001 4:05 am

Rangers suck, be an elf warrior!


Frensolith
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Postby Sylvos » Tue Aug 14, 2001 4:53 am

Isn't an elf warrior like, a rareload or something? :P

Sylvos
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Postby Dinggle » Tue Aug 14, 2001 7:18 am

he didnt call you gay, and once again you argue semantics.

belleshel has been around as long as you have, maybe longer i dunno, and the way he chooses to play the ranger is obviously different from yours and in this incarnation of the game it's apparantly more fitting.

he said perhaps you should learn a new way to play and even suggested the new ways. did you even try them before you blasted back with your foul metaphores and hot temper?

would an imm please kill this thread?
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Postby rylan » Tue Aug 14, 2001 12:34 pm

Yeah, Belleshel likes to wear that sexy white shirt for our groups Image
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Postby belleshel » Tue Aug 14, 2001 12:51 pm

Thanks Dinggle! Image
Tasan it wasn't a personal attack. It just makes you wonder when you call the single best and reliable spank-saving skill pretty much 'worthless' and you think rangers should be needed in groups. We are utility, always will be a utility class, and _should_ be a utility class. Trust me I don't get into group because Im 'needed'. I have a lot of good friends that I have fun with and hopefully have fun with me, end of story.. As a utility class you have to rely much more on friendships and reputation then a groups 'need', or you *gasp* lead a group Image Anyway as folks have said this topic is pretty much dead until ranged actually shows up.

Belle

Pipe down healer-boy..you better pray your not number 15 next time Im holding a group Image
Galok Icewolf
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Tue Aug 14, 2001 1:37 pm

Im just curious if any rangers practice skills as much as warriors?

I KNOW good warriors go to skellies and practice shieldpunch, bash, parry, rescue, shieldblock, dodge for hours at a time (3-5).

I have never once seen a ranger say "hey ya know maybe its time i practiced rescue so it isn't so crappy!" or "Hrrmm, I wonder if I sit in front of skeletons all day if my parry will get notched 4 times so i have a 1/100 in blocking one more attack."

Complain about your skills one day AFTER you put some effort into practicing them.

My second point, is having spells at all is a boon. Please tell me how being able to heal yourself even with cure crits, is bad. Or tell me how barkskin sucks! Actually the best yet.. tell me how pass without trace is totally worthless.


Rangers are not the most fun, best, most powerful class in the game. IMO they are FAR from the worst though.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Aug 14, 2001 1:50 pm

I know I've seen a couple posts where Belle talked about spending time with skellies. I've always meant to, but I hear you need way better ac than I've ever managed to obtain.

Sarvis
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Postby Tasan » Tue Aug 14, 2001 5:00 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galok Icewolf:
<B>Im just curious if any rangers practice skills as much as warriors?

I KNOW good warriors go to skellies and practice shieldpunch, bash, parry, rescue, shieldblock, dodge for hours at a time (3-5).

I have never once seen a ranger say "hey ya know maybe its time i practiced rescue so it isn't so crappy!" or "Hrrmm, I wonder if I sit in front of skeletons all day if my parry will get notched 4 times so i have a 1/100 in blocking one more attack."

Complain about your skills one day AFTER you put some effort into practicing them.

My second point, is having spells at all is a boon. Please tell me how being able to heal yourself even with cure crits, is bad. Or tell me how barkskin sucks! Actually the best yet.. tell me how pass without trace is totally worthless.


Rangers are not the most fun, best, most powerful class in the game. IMO they are FAR from the worst though.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I don't practice skills because I am far too busy leading groups, doing huge zones and generally having a great time playing.

Please, there isn't much else for people to do at level 40 when you aren't required for a group in any way. I've spent literally hours at the spirit mastiff attempting to notch rescue. I've spent hours alone trying to notch bash. I've been to skellies, which were changed somehow, because even w/ -100, you can still get crit and slaughtered.

The spells rangers get are very utilitarian. Cure crit is a great thing to have when a group gets split up somehow because bad things happened, but in the end, it only serves to reduce the time I'd be sitting around healing. I can't solo anything worth the time w/ it, so it's utility. If you really want, take all our spells away and give us 1 skill to make us wanted in groups. I'd take that tradeoff any day.

As for Bell: I'm well aware our class isn't required for groups. I'm aware that bash is a very useful skill. The problem seems to lie in the fact that for any group, I'm not wearing a shield as I am a HITTER. Perhaps one day, when everyone has xp'd themselves to death, and everyone is level 50, people won't hesitate to want to explore w/ someone that hasn't led every zone in the game, and then maybe, wearing a shield will be handy.

I like leading, I like exploring w/ people and doing new things. What I don't like is knowing that asking people to do things and saying "well, we don't really know what's in there, but we want to find out" makes people run away in fear to go do easy-safe xp. Pretty lame.

As for making friends and blahblah, I've made plenty of friends, but because my class is very secondary, I often just get details about the zone they are doing.

Dinggle: Consider yourself gagged until you can read and understand a post.

Ok, this is real long winded, and I've most likely lost a ton of respect from people, but that is the truth. Why don't we all go and play 3 classes and hope to have fun.

T
izarek
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Postby izarek » Tue Aug 14, 2001 5:04 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galok Icewolf:
<B>Im just curious if any rangers practice skills as much as warriors?

I KNOW good warriors go to skellies and practice shieldpunch, bash, parry, rescue, shieldblock, dodge for hours at a time (3-5).

I have never once seen a ranger say "hey ya know maybe its time i practiced rescue so it isn't so crappy!" or "Hrrmm, I wonder if I sit in front of skeletons all day if my parry will get notched 4 times so i have a 1/100 in blocking one more attack."

Complain about your skills one day AFTER you put some effort into practicing them.

My second point, is having spells at all is a boon. Please tell me how being able to heal yourself even with cure crits, is bad. Or tell me how barkskin sucks! Actually the best yet.. tell me how pass without trace is totally worthless.


Rangers are not the most fun, best, most powerful class in the game. IMO they are FAR from the worst though.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMHO Rangers are one of the better classes. They are just missing a couple of things from making them perfect. They've got good spells for utility and exploration. My chief complaints about them are really just making them useful to groups, as well as being consistant RP-wise. Not more powerful, just more useful. I've always tried to express this through suggestions (such as my 'direction sense' skill suggestion which got very little feedback), not complaining. I think everyone would be alot better off posting helpful suggestions and not bickering.

That being said, the post above was about rangers practicing skills. The answer for me is yes AND no. After I finally got a pbone for Raev, I've been taking opportunities to bash. I suprised myself. With a skill in bash around the low 30s, I can bash lvl 50 mobs about 80% of the time. That's nothing you'll want for caster mobs, but its useful for backing up or allowing a pally to use their horse. Using bash in this way, I've notched it about 10 times. Not bad for a skill that notches so slowly.
Usually, I just get a tell from the group leader to dual (which I usually would rather do anyhow).

However, when it comes to skellies, I don't prac skills there. Why? My hps. Every time I've gone to the skellies in previous wipes with my rangers, I'd go with a higher level warrior. I'd usually do okay until my defensive spells wore out, but then I'd go down fast. Ranger elf hps just suck and ya don't last long. Sure, the warrior would be rescuing their ass off, but it was never enough. I couldn't flee to heal and remem, so I'd just die. After enough of those, I stopped going to skellies. Too bad, cause I'd love to prac my defensive skills and help my warrior and pally buds prac rescue. Yes, there's some rangers with better eq that can last longer on skellies. My point is, that skellies aren't the answer for rangers practicing defensive skills because they dont usually have the hps or the blocking skills. Factor that in addition to most group leaders having them dual since their best role is in damage. Your point about them needing to practice defensive skills is definately valid. It's just easier said than done. Rangers may be a fighter sub-class, but they arent really fighters in the same way that warriors and paladins are. They do a little bit of everything but suck at it all.

I still think they're fun tho!

Izzy (Raevithar)
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Postby Aderon » Tue Aug 14, 2001 9:09 pm

I though maybe I should post here quickly about people complaining about Rangers... There was a time on this mud where all I did was complain to people about how bad my character was and ask people what character I should play. Then a good buddy of mine decided to help me out. He sat me down and made me realize that I should play the class I like, work hard at it and in time, people will group with me. It is always nice to have some extra hitting in your zone groups. But for god sakes, if I were leading I wouldnt want a 38 ranger when there are so many others above this level. If you are lower level, do not complain about your class being bad. Just work at it and try and make it better. Instead of complaining about never getting zone groups, a good friend of mine decided to help me learn how to lead them. Long story short, I have ran eq the past 3 nights and I love every minute of it. I wouldn't trade some of the experiences that I had as my ranger for all the shieldblocks in the world.

Remember, each class is different and each has their use but levels, skill and especially attitude play a huge part. I'll tell you one thing, I never got one group by complaining about my class Image

As for listening to Ladorn and Belleshel, I think you should. They are the two highest level rangers right now. Both of them run with the top two goodie groups in the game. I can not speak for Ladorn because I never group with him, but I have grouped with Belleshel. Belle is a good time to have in the group and does some solid hitting. That is what matters. One skill I think that you all have mastered (and I have too) is the complaint skill. This is definitely the WORST skill to bring to a group Image

That is all I have to say. I always try to have another ranger in my groups with me as does Kaitos. Folur uses two in his groups, Ladorn and Nomarack. Tro always has some following him. Remember there can only be 15 people in a group. All 15 can not be rangers.

Aderon Attitudeadjustment, Slayer of all in a bad mood Image
Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Tue Aug 14, 2001 10:42 pm

Well, I've just slogged through this thread and I'll just toss replies without specifying who I'm replying to since it's getting hazy who's saying what.

Why do so many people play rangers? The same reason you played an assassin for so long Nilan. We just liked it for some reason. I've been a ranger since mid-Toril. Necasio has been one since before that. I'm not even gonna try to guess how long Ladorn's been one, I'm gonna guess since around the invention of the light bulb Image Bell's been one since Soj2 I believe but played on other muds before that so he can elaborate on whatever attachment he has to the class better than I can by citing playing history. Raevithar/Izarek was a monk turned ranger on Soj2. He and Bell were the only two people new to the class that got to high levels on Soj2. We don't get a lot of new blood. We just tend to stick around and still find stuff to do cause we actually know what the hell we're doing even with questionable skills. Most also seem to have something for the RP aspect, but I've gotten sick of immediately being typecast as someone prancing around the forest so that's not the appeal for me. I just like smacking the shit outta mobs. Or at least thinking I am.

Skills: What Ladorn and the others have said for the most part. Yes, we can bash. We just are no where as reliable as a warrior or paladin/anti of similar level even with a wt 50 shield and them using a wt 10 shield. Our exp tables also are built to take the extra damage exp from a secondary weapon into account meaning ranger bash = slow levels. Kick is mostly useless. It was too powerful a long time ago when it could keep mobs stunned so it got neutered. At low-mid levels, it's definately not worth it due to the chance of not being able to pick up your weapons for two rounds if you fumble. Our tanking sucks big time compared to a warrior or paladin. Shieldblock and flankblock are not only 3rd defensive skills, but they kick in MUCH more frequently than dodge or parry. Back when we erroneously had flankblock, I flankblocked most than I dodged and parried combined with a 12 in mounted combat and 40-50 in the others. And yes, we do do lots of skill practice. It takes about 3 hours for ONE rescue notch. Frankly, I wouldn't mind the low skill cap on rescue so much if we at least could hit that cap higher. I've got over 30 hours of nonstop rescue practice ahead of me before I max out the skill.

Spells: I posted a list of how I use each circle of spells in another thread. Do a search for ranger spells or posts by me to dig it up, I'm not gonna repeat it all here. I will say that my most useful spells are detect magic, detect invisibility, cure critic, and invisibility. I don't see anything that's going to be a huge boon to the group there. Using 2nd and 4th circle druid spells in anything serious is a complete waste of time, especially since our mem times suck and people mem out. Barkskin is nice for the warriors and paladins, but not really for ourselves. AC is the 4th line of defense and the least effective one against attacks. It's no subsitute for a 3rd tanking skill that's more effective than the other two.

I'm sure I have some other thoughts on other stuff in this thread, but frankly I'm too sick of the misinformed crap in it right now to bother.
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Postby Nilan » Wed Aug 15, 2001 10:07 am

Agreed Treladian,

I played Nilan for many years, because apparently like you, I love the class. But never once would you hear the words "I suck, or I'm useless" ever come outta my mouth. On the contrary, i believed i was never useless like most of you all would tell me. I believed it was player attitude that believed I was useless. To this day, Id have words with any that would say to me "You suck" or "Your useless Nilan"
I used what skills were given to me, i learned how to use them well, i kinda experimented on what skill combos worked best . But most of all, I played and I had fun playing.

But all I hear from rangers is how sucky they are, how useless they are etc... Its actually pleasant to see that a few of you rangers actually dont say "you suck"
CHEER!! Image

Just have fun playing, fight your own fight, play with your skills. To constantly look over to see if the other guy's grass is greener is a real waste of valuable fun play time.

You rangers dont "suck"
Never believe that.

Nilan

**Who'd rather slit his own throat than ever say "I suck" . And who will definitely slit anyone elses throat who tells him "he sucks"**

Image
Tasan
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Postby Tasan » Wed Aug 15, 2001 5:20 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nilan:
<B> **Who'd rather slit his own throat than ever say "I suck" . And who will definitely slit anyone elses throat who tells him "he sucks"**

Image</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nilan, you suck. Image

Twyl backs away taunting Nilan into entering Leuthilspar.
Nilan
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Postby Nilan » Wed Aug 15, 2001 6:25 pm

ROFL Twyl Image

And youd better stay in that pathetic elfie town of yours you pathetic ranger *grin*

Nilan

**Assassin, who hates rangers alil more than holy rollin paladins**
Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:09 pm

I don't think any of the experienced rangers has ever said that they were totally worthless. Only lacking in certain areas (ie, being the only hitter class that couldn't get mastery in weapons skills or offense) and knowing what those areas are. Back on Sojourn 2, I often said that the class was balanced in and of itself but some of the other classes were what threw things out of whack. Obviously the class isn't terrible or more of us would have given up on it. However, game balance is something important to many of us (one of the reasons I came back to Sojourn 3 was to observe how things were tweaked for balance. It's not something most people get to see happen in a commerical game) so we will voice our concerns or ideas.

Anyway, now that I'm a better mindset for this thread, something that I forgot to mention earlier is that pretty much all of our skills are not even usable while in ranged combat. We cannot kick or bash while using a bow. I THINK we could still rescue (or try to anyway), but that's about it (well, also could cast spells but this goes back to the trying to nuke a big mob with a 2nd circle druid spell). Getting something to do during it (even if only utilized occasionally) instead of just typing afire mobname and then looking at websites until the mob drops would be nice.
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Aug 17, 2001 8:53 pm

Discussing ranger balance is like discussing conjurer balance.

It's an unfinished class.

You can't tell a painter his work sucks when he's only a quarter of the way done with it.

- Ragorn
The Ranger who practiced his skills.

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