Fumbling weapons/ress and crash = SUCK

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kiryan
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Fumbling weapons/ress and crash = SUCK

Postby kiryan » Sun Sep 16, 2001 9:05 am

Neither case happens very frequently, but when it does it generally sucks. I threw my weapon the other day, a nice weapon, nightbringer, but nothing spectacular. Its not a twilight, its not a tiamat weapon, and its not an artifact (which consequently artifacts were restored if they were lost in this way in the old days). Sill, it really sucked. Ya someday I can go get another one, but it got me wondering how to avoid this situation.


So I started thinking about how the code is probably implemented. Whenever a item leaves your character, your save file must be updated. The reason that this must happen is that there was a save prior to me throwing my weapon but not before the crash (my save notification is on). This sounds stupid, but is obviously to prevent copying items by having people drop items/give items/fumble items, then intentionally causing a crash.

I have a couple ideas for eliminating these rare, but unhappy circumstances.

1. When you fumble a weapon have it go into your inventory.
2. When you fumble a weapon have it create a record that you fumbled weapon #x with id #y. If someone else picks it up, remove the record. If you login to the game with a tag in the database the weapon is restored to your inventory.

3. When you fumble backup the existing char record before updating it without the weapon. Remove any backup records after an official save. If a char logs in with a backup record, restore the backup record instead of the official record. (this one is messy and potential for numerous bugs, and does not guarantee you get your weapon back in a fumble).

4. When you get ressed force all the equipment on the corpse into your inventory. Makes wear all quite a bit easier. and it eliminates situations where people might psteal. and it eliminates a lot of hassle that really serves no point except to be annoying and give some risk of eq loss. (might want to think about what to do with cursed transient items).
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Postby kiryan » Fri Sep 21, 2001 1:53 am

cant believe no one has anything to say about this topic. well i really think its a good idea because i think the penalty is visited on warriors more harshly than other classes since we live by our weapons. Why should warriors be subject to random eq loss? How would you like to fumble your amethyst belt or eldritch ring... or better yet fumble your spellbook!? tote2m!"%!%" holy symbol (or whatever the hell those damn priest classes use)? Didnt think so. Dont even talk about dragon breath, its not the same. you dont have to attack a dragon, but you do have to kill mobs to get exp.

I think this is extra special important because the mud been crashing a lot lately.

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 09-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 09-20-2001).]
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Postby Grungar » Fri Sep 21, 2001 8:43 pm

All classes have to deal with this. It's just a random thing that's been built into the mud for years now, a risk you take when fighting. Rogues, rangers, and paladins are just as dependent upon weapons as warriors.

Plus how many instances have there been of pstealing that haven't been stomped down by the people upstairs? Theft is dealt with quite harshly here, and rightfully so.

Wouldn't updating player files every time an object changed hands lag the mud substantially? I buy rations and lockpicks three or four dozen at a time, and each time I buy one, my file gets saved. Each time I eat a ration, my file gets saved. Each time I snap a lockpick, my file gets saved. That's quite a bit of saving.

I dunno what to tell ya. Luckily for rogues, we have a couple of decent !drop weapons, and that makes things a lot nicer.

- Grungar "Time for a nap" Forgefire

I can't spell when I'm tired.

[This message has been edited by Grungar (edited 09-21-2001).]
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Sep 21, 2001 9:59 pm

Kiryan -

Good ideas, but they're not really feasible at this time. Perhaps later on down the road.

For now I suggest cursing your weapons..



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<B>Shevarash -- Code Forger of Sojourn3
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Postby kiryan » Thu Sep 27, 2001 8:29 am

Thanks for the post shev.

I'd curse my weapons in a heartbeat if they didnt lose dice/dam. Any chance that could be changed as an interim fix?

Grungar

didnt mean to just say warriors basically i mean all melee types vs casters. Mages who fumble their ravenearstaff are still as effective as without. Guess you could argue the same for the tanking classes since we dont dish the dam, only shieldblock and rescue, but basically our weapons are our livliehood, and very expensive to replace. Also, bash/rescue lag often keeps us from pickign up our weapons (I do feel worse on this point for the casters because if they casting a spell the commands dont even que up and they might never pick up their weapons unless they noticed).

On the saving and lag, I bet that at a minimum your character file is updated every time you give/drop/fumble. But, probably, theres two functions that handle integrating and removing items from your character that have saves built in. This makes it easy to find/prevent inventory pfile bugs.

No i never seen the code, why am i talkign out my ass, dont know. i just do that a lot hoping someone will come back at me and teach me something new at the same time.
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Postby Frensolith » Thu Sep 27, 2001 9:29 am

Does curse still hurt the dice of weapons?

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Postby rylan » Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:46 pm

Yes Fren
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Postby izarek » Thu Sep 27, 2001 1:18 pm

I have to agree with getting rid of the curse effect. What's curse used for...mainly to prevent weapon fumbles. Why? So ya dont lose em to a fumble/crash. Does that happen in fantasy stories? No. They lose em to monsters, mebbe, but not to crashes. Whats the point of the penalty? So everyone doesnt just go cursing their weapons. There's already a penalty...you have to deal with the item being sticky and staying in your inventory. Makes ressing a pain. I think that's enough of a problem.
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Postby Mishre » Fri Sep 28, 2001 9:14 am

Hmm.. so.. is the only reason weapon fumbles go to the ground instead of inventory is for realism? and that if you aren't paying attention you can lose 'em in water.. or perhaps causing minor incoveniences to piss of the players is what the gods like to laugh about Image anyway.. although it might be not quite as realistic for weapons to fumble to inventory, would sure help a lot of situations..(perhaps a fumble in a water room would still make you lose it though Image )

I haven't really experienced any problems with fumble except losing my nice weapon in water rooms or getting disconnected after i fumble a weapon with no one there to recover it, if i can't reconnect soon enough it could be picked up.. (had that happen in SS.. never did find the person or mob who picked it up Image ) so..
i guess my only point is do you really want to aggravate us with these little things? is that what makes part of the game fun? does that help us keep # of items down? actually sojourn is the only mud ive ever played that had fumbled weapons (other than duris).. rest of the muds considered it an unneccesary aggravation that, although made combat slightly more realistic, wasn't what the players needed... (and definetly not what they wanted Image
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Postby kiryan » Sun Sep 30, 2001 8:27 am

fumbled gcd into the water =( guess that was my fault still sucks. The same day I saw a invoker fumble ravenarstaff in a !ground. That was just dumb he shouldve cursed it since invokers dont hit things with weapons. Still cursing not a option for melee classes. defeats the purpose.

What is the point of fumbles? Another one to add to this topic is the !burn. why do breath weapons sometimes destroy eq? why does protection prevent it? is that so you have to bring a shaman/cleric/druid when you do breathing mobs (mostly dragons).

Since hard earned eq is not sacred, I got an idea, lets imp a random chance that when you login a "thief" stole some of your belongings while you were in rent (more expensive items being more likely to be stolen). And when you get critted sometimes a piece of your eq is destroyed. Of course that should affect non melee more often since melee doesnt take as many crits. Sometimes the bank makes a mistake and you could lose platinum or end up owing the bank platinum. While your in the "wilderness" you have a random chance of "forgetting" your belongings somewhere. Whenever your in town (as a mage) theres a chance a jealous mage will steal your spellbook. I mean we could do so much more than just fumbling and burning.

ok im being a big dork, but i really hate losing eq. especially items that are very prestigious such as weapons for melee.
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Postby Yayaril » Sun Sep 30, 2001 3:31 pm

Cursing is an option for melees. I cursed both my weapons. Frankly, the damage you do whilst your weapon should be on the ground or whilst in water/!ground rooms easily makes up for the tiny bit of damage you miss out from each hit. Plus, the solace you get from never having to worry about losing your weapons again is quite comforting. It's amusing whilst zoning to move into a water room and see the majority of the melee pc's in the group switch to garbage weapons.

Yayaril
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Postby kiryan » Tue Oct 02, 2001 9:24 am

add this to the list of why this stuff sucks. fumbling while or pre link dead or right before dieing. Not only does this make it extremely difficult to retrieve your weapon from scavengers, players can and do steal weapons via this method. If you didnt see them do it, how can you possibly accuse anyone?

Curse still solves this I suppose, but I still couldnt bring myself to curse a weapon if im going to lose dice/dam.
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Postby moritheil » Thu Oct 04, 2001 1:39 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
<B>cant believe no one has anything to say about this topic. well i really think its a good idea because i think the penalty is visited on warriors more harshly than other classes since we live by our weapons. Why should warriors be subject to random eq loss? How would you like to fumble your amethyst belt or eldritch ring... or better yet fumble your spellbook!? tote2m!"%!%" holy symbol (or whatever the hell those damn priest classes use)? Didnt think so. Dont even talk about dragon breath, its not the same. you dont have to attack a dragon, but you do have to kill mobs to get exp.

I think this is extra special important because the mud been crashing a lot lately.

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 09-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 09-20-2001).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Warriors are eq dependent; casters are traditionally less so (EVERYONE depends on eq, heh). Anyone who's been around the block knows how to avoid stuff happening come boot time (unless someone announces boot in 25 min and you log on and don't know, but that was discussed elsewhere - admins should countdown).

I favor no change, except maybe making curse spell more accessible so that one doesn't have to hunt to get a weapon nodrop.
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Postby kiryan » Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:26 am

Moreithel what do you mean by making curse more accessible? if you mean not remove dice/dam then im for that. if your trying to say its too hard to find a cleric to curse an item, i dont see that heh.

lost a practice weapon today, lost link, crashed before i could get logged back in. Caz hate adsl. Also, heard first hand someone complain that they fumbled flamberge before dieing and when he went back it wasnt there (not a crash and no scavengers in that area).

And for those that been around the block and know the ways to not lose weapons please share. I mean when your skill lagged all the time, weapons sit on the ground for 2 or 3 rounds, worse if your mass rescuing or chain shieldpunching. I throw my weapon probably once per fight on average with a 90+ dex/agi/str and weapon skills maxed for my level. Im always fighting (or at least I try to be, how else am i going to level?).

Obviously if a god announces a reboot, you try to stop fighting and/or get crap weapons out. Still its dumb that you have to do that. Its also dumb that weapons are about the only piece of eq that is subject to random loss. (I also think that the noburn stuff is bunk). If eq is not sacred, then I think there are better ways of removing it from the game. I dont think sojourn supports the non-voluntary loss of player owned eq, but there are facets of the game that do exactly that.


some parting thoughts that may hit closer to home...

Maybe rings should suddenly get greasy with blood after battle and have a chance of falling off or being lost, or spell books had a chance of being dropped randomly every time you sit or stand up. Hats and crowns could fall off when its windy or you get critted. Holdables could get "thrown" after you are bashed or fumbled instead of the no effect "you stumble but manage to retain your balance."
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Postby Xyd » Sat Oct 06, 2001 3:21 pm

Fumble is realistic, but not the way it's imp'ed in Sojourn -- it occurs way too frequently here. I think there's a line between "realistic" and "overdone".

Kiryan is right -- why doesn't our EQ take damage? If a mob is pounding on me why wouldn't my helm chip or take damage? It shouldn't, for the same reasons we shouldn't fumble. The same goes for his other ideas -- bank mistakes, lost items (ESPECIALLY quills!!), items stolen while rented... they all fall in the same category.

Just my ever-popular $.02.

.xyd
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Postby Todrael » Sat Oct 06, 2001 3:23 pm

If they ever implement house code, maybe you could walk into your house and 'search couch' every now and then to find any items you may have lost, perhaps with a little bonus of a few plat.

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Postby kiryan » Sun Oct 07, 2001 2:11 am

rofl todrael.
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Postby Turxx » Sat Oct 13, 2001 2:15 am

your corpses eq does go into your inv when you ressed, fumble weapon die thieft definatly sucks but i would have to say oh well life sucks sometimes, as far as fumble, crash no more weapon, yeah this definatly is wrong, not ones fault game crashed, already we need to walk from wereever we start to where we were, we need to reorganize and coordinate our group, i hate crashes, they can ruin a good deal of time and effort by putting one back to square one, i got from ghore to just shy of dk 3 times oneday just to end up back in ghore, once again waiting for the store to open to buy anouther conoe(i drop them after i passed the lizzies, they just dead wieght and cheap to buy), getting canoe, just so i could walk all the way to dk to find myself in ghore as soon as i got there, talk about a fckng agrivation, hadda cr hadda just keep tryin, ive got no idea how, but i do think something should be done to lessen the impact of a crash to the player, ive had them days i needed to cr and the mud was crashin every 10 mins or so, making whut should have been a 20-30 mission into an all day thing as i wasnt about to just say fck this i cant deal with it, ive never failed a cr, there is no reason it should ever happen, to me lossing all my eq would be death, finding myself in the guild after a beat down was merely lossing the fight, so yah, if something could be down to lesson the blow of a crash that would rock
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Postby Shaylot » Sun Oct 14, 2001 10:17 am

If items are placed in inv then people also won't be so afraid of fighting on water.
I think this is a VERY good idea play wise.

-Shaylot McFeast
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Postby Gormal » Sun Oct 14, 2001 12:04 pm

flinging weapons into the lake is part of the fun of the game...makes you be on your toes or collect float/cursed items. things dropping when you ress isnt that big of a deal imo.
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Postby Vipplin » Mon Oct 15, 2001 1:49 pm

I think fumbles should be VERY rare for chars with 90+ dex. They are too common.

I think it is silly that you can lose a weapon due to reboot/crash. I don't know how hard it would be to change (shev implied it would be hard or time consuming) but please do if possible. Realism? What realism? :P

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Postby Jhorr » Wed Oct 24, 2001 7:11 am

I've played this game for 6 years and never lost a weapon of any value from a crash. Of course, accidents do happen but they are relatively rare.

Some things to keep in mind:

1 - Don't use non-float weapons on water. Duh!

2 - Have a friend pick up your cursed weapon immediately after you ress and transfer it back when you've regained strength.

3 - Don't use your best weapons when your ISP is unreliable. Go quest instead.

4 - If your ISP sucks, change it!

5 - Try to group with people who notice when you fumble and who you trust so they'll give the weapon back if you lose link or die after the fumble.

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Postby kiryan » Wed Oct 24, 2001 4:32 pm

1 - Don't use non-float weapons on water. Duh!

yea, glad all of us know zones well enough to know when the fight going to be over water ect and leaders always say when the fight is over water... I recently setup a trigger to auto remove, still im -1 gcd to water.

2 - Have a friend pick up your cursed weapon immediately after you ress and transfer it back when you've regained strength.

never lost anything to ress, just pointed out sometimes theres a lot of eq on the ground after a ress. Usually people smart enough to pick up or put stuff away, sometimes they make a mistake. I never heard of something as atrocious as losing all your eq, but it could happen.

3 - Don't use your best weapons when your ISP is unreliable. Go quest instead.

hmmm most quests require you to kill shit. Some people dont like to quest, thats me. I don't think that comment relates to this topic.

4 - If your ISP sucks, change it!

nog, sometimes you dont have much choice in isp due to contracts money available services, money, ect... Still doesn't account for the random down time. Again, marginally related to the topic.

5 - Try to group with people who notice when you fumble and who you trust so they'll give the weapon back if you lose link or die after the fumble.

Oof, this implies your grouped with someone first, and i suppose doesnt really have any drawbacks. But do we really want everyone to write pickup and give actions for fumbled weapons? THen people writing triggers for when people give them their weapons back?

Yea there are ways around not losing your weapons, gratz you never lost one. I've lost 3 weapons in 5 years. 1 nightbringers a long long time ago (i threw it and it just disappeared, to this day i dont know what happened, but some god had been giving me shit about a paladin wielding nightbringer just before it mysteriously vanished. I was logging and there was no message about it being picked up anyhow). One nigthbringer a month ago when I threw it right before bash and it crashed while i was bash lagged. one gcd on a fight over water, 15 people entered the room with me kinda hard to catch room titles ect. Also, I'm getting better at not throwing my weapon, probably only do it once every 5 fights now. Still i shouldnt have to risk it at all. Losing your corpse to a bad cr is one thing (and thats dumb too, but tanras started a good thread on uping corpse rot times), tossing a piece of eq on the ground every 5 minutes is dumb.

Anyhow, I still think that it sucks that weapons are just about the only piece of eq that is subject to random loss frequently. Melee classes are typically defined and judged by their weapon. Its stupid that they can lose it so easily. Sure this affects all classes even the casters to some degree, but casters dont rely on their weapons. Its sick and wrong. Cursing is still a bad idea since it reduces the dam you do which is the whole point of having a weapon in the first place.

For perspective, How about we imp a % chance to randomly erase the spell you are casting from your spell book after a you successfully cast. that still wouldnt come close to the time and effort it takes to go get another good weapon.

The penatly is harsh and visited more frequently on melee than anyone else. I dont think sojourn is a mud where players are supposed to lose eq, theres no pk, no psteal, no eq degradation, no %change of destruction on criticals, ect. There is fumbling. What can more can i say? Fundamentally, losing eq doesnt fit our game. Fumble to the inventory if you must or reimburse lost weapons.
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Postby Vipplin » Fri Oct 26, 2001 3:52 pm

Jhorr - good ideas on how to cope with the problem. However, none of that changes my opinion that it is, in fact, a problem that we shouldn't HAVE to cope with.

If it can be fixed quickly and easily I'd like to see it changed now. If not easy/quick then I'd like to see it changed later.

Vadian applies superglue to the hilt of a slender elven moonblade.
Vadian wields a slender elven moonblade.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Oct 26, 2001 4:26 pm

today the mud lagged or router went down or something. Tons of people were disconnected from the mud, maybe everyone.

I happened to be fighting as a warrior is apt to do and during the time I was disconnected I fumbled, luckily i had wimp togged. For anywhere between 10 and 15 minutes my sword was sitting on the ground. I'm glad it didnt crash, but my sword didnt need to be sitting there on the ground for 10-15 minutes, where anyone could pick it up, any mob could pick it up, ect... That ones not really avoidable and has nothing to do with me, my isp, my lag, my triggers or anything else.

If it crashed wanna bet I wouldnt have gotten a reimb?
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Postby Kalthanan » Sat Oct 27, 2001 1:27 pm

man, just curse the damned weapon already.

there's a ton of level 50 melee classes on the mud, i'm sure they've all fumbled and lost a GCD/flamb/nightbringer/etc before.. just do what ya gotta do and continue the climb to the top Image
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Postby kiryan » Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:17 pm

cursing it makes it lose dice and hit/dam if i remember correctly. Thats, -1/1 hit/dam and -1 on the dice so cursing an 8d4 5/5 makes it an 8d3 4/4. Thats a reduction of 4 avg dam from dice plus 1 less dam per round from damroll, if you assume 3 hits per round your throwing 15 dam per round. Thats stupid, doesn't melee already hit poorly enough?

You want to take those spanky 1hdrs, 2d6/7/8 and make them smaller? Seriously, ill hold a nebula before i curse a weapon.

Lets look at an extreme example. You throw twilight or windsong or tia's rare load ranger toy and it boots. Your talking about effort measured in at least dozens of hours destroyed in seconds. I dont believe sojourn is about players losing eq otherwise we'd have equipment decay.

How about we make holdables throwable and make cursing also remove 20% of all stats from the item including hps and stats (20% because 8d4 cursed is a - of 20%, 5/5 reduced by 1 is 20%, 2d8 cursed is 11%, 2d6 is 14%? nebula could lose 7 hps and 1 max int (yea i know it starts cursed). egg could lose 6 hps, ect... even then id say your getting off luckier than those who rely on weapons for dam, hps only important if you get hit.
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Postby Kalthanan » Sat Oct 27, 2001 7:12 pm

nope you just lose 1 hit die.. so 8d4 6/6 would be 8d3 6/6..whoopdee doo.

how do you know that a buncha those !id 1h longswords haven't been cursed/uncursed/cursed/uncursed by me already so that they're like 2d1 2/2? *muahahaha*

hmm i've got a twilight.. if i was really worried about losing it, i'd have cursed it by now.. as it is, if i lose it to fumble/crash/reboot oh well, i guess i shoulda cursed it eh?!

[This message has been edited by Kalthanan (edited 10-27-2001).]
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Postby Vipplin » Sun Oct 28, 2001 3:16 pm

I've already posted, and others too, some of this, but I feel strongly here so I am going to fully vent again Image

You know, I don't really mind dropping my weapon and having the chance to have the mob pick it up. That's kind of a fun *oh shit* kind of thing. BUT having seen some actual sword fights, I've never seen someone just up and drop their sword. Your opponent disarms you? Ok. *whoops!* No. So #1 not realistic.

Next, if I'm standing in a "water" room without a boat or lev, not swimming etc, and I am fighting, how does my sword magically disappear when it falls? No biggie, I do the stupid weaponswap thing in water rooms to deal with it. #2 not realistic.

Whoops I dropped my weapon *blink* (insert mud crash here) *poof* *swear* (even more likely if mob nabs it - longer period of vulnerability) #3 not realistic.

Casters who presumably use the hands when casting spells hold something in each hand as they do complicated arcane gestures. While doing so, they have no chance to drop these things. I like it that way for mud purposes! It just ain't fair, though.

Solutions currently used:

1. Curse your weapon. How stupid is that? I've done it before, but really, curse is a spell you shouldn't want to cast on your own stuff!

2. There is no other solution, see #1.

The reasoning "many level 50s have lost their weapons so you should too" doesn't cut it for me when it comes to making decisions on how the mud should ideally be.

SO WHAT ARE THE EASY FIX OPTIONS?

1. Fumble to inventory. I don't like it much but it would be better.

2. For cursed items make the disadvantage less. -1hit for example would be good perfect. This would also fix the problem that if you curse a 2d8 weapon (lose 4.5 dam) it sucks more than cursing a 4d4 weapon (lose 2.5 dam).

3. I'm open to suggestions.

I like option 2. If we're going to curse our own weapons, let's assume the caster can somewhat tailor the spell instead of 'doing his worst' on the item. -1 hit makes a little sense, maybe the weapon is a little harder to handle because it is stuck to you? *shrug* I'm tired so I'm done.

Vadian swings _really_ badly, sending his a very dead rat flying!
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Postby kiryan » Sun Oct 28, 2001 6:49 pm

Thanks for the clarification on curse. 8d4 -> 8d3 is a reduction of 20%. You think thats trivial?

1-4
2-3
2.5 = average on a 4 sided die * 8 = 20

1-3
2 = average on a 3 sided diec * 8 = 16

4/20 = 20%

How about we reduce hps on rings by 20%?

My point is that its rare to lose equipment on sojourn, fumble crashes, corpse rot, and dragon fire being about the only way. Soj is eq friendly. Melee is the only class that is expected to put hard work into their primary piece of eq, weapon, then regulary toss it on the ground every 5 minutes.

I'm glad you have a twilight that you wouldn't be so upset to lose to a crash. I'd be very unhappy. Corpse rots are another that mortify me, zone for couple hundred hours, then lose it all in 2.5 hours because you got spanked by walking in on a remo during invasion? Someone dropped they key behind a locked door, ect?

As a matter of fact, the keys thing is a good point since gods, I've heard, will help in situation whe corpses are trapped behind locked doors. They don't reimb weapons, corpse rots, or burned shit, but keys to locked doors gets done. Another one, some player entered a portal from prime into a room whose entrance is secret and got wasted. Gods gave hints as to the location of the secret room when we couldn't figure out where it was.

Why are weapons the only piece of eq your expected to downgrade by upwards of 20% to keep from losing?
Kalthanan
Sojourner
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Toronto, ON., Canada

Postby Kalthanan » Sun Oct 28, 2001 7:54 pm

geez, if it bothers you so much go roll a caster and stop whining.

sounds like a prob with your character if yer fumbling so often anyways. i never fumbled that often before i got my cursed weapon.

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