Elfy mage hps

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Drache
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Postby Drache » Sun Aug 11, 2002 5:54 pm

Ah yeah, and for Ambar 8) I know you know your stuff, as do I for these hp #'s I'm throwing out. My squid is past 20th level w/perfect con. 4-6 hps/level and I get 6's as often as fours. I don't recall getting 3's but I'm sure I have - THAT is expected to me, considering a fart in a windstorm should half kill a squid.

**In general, not towards Ambar** Where is the fairness for those 95% 3's for elfy? **The point of how much damage we do is somewhat arguable w/rogue vs. invoker (except in area spells) A loaded halfling rogue can very quickly deal the damage, ie. hasted, and half makes an invoker undesired except for zoning. Enchanter actually enhances (any hitter) against fireshielded mobs w/globe.

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Drache
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Postby Drache » Sun Aug 11, 2002 5:56 pm

P.S. My sympothy for those overworked, underappreciated enchanters out there in zones Image

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Postby torkur » Sun Aug 11, 2002 6:14 pm

Didn't know they got 5 hp/lvl past 25. Cool, I wish I got that. I'm assuming if MH dwarves could be elementalists like they used to be conjies, they'd get 5hp/lvl then too.

Still, my point remains that duergar aren't supposed to balance versus the other good races, elves are.
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Postby Drache » Sun Aug 11, 2002 6:30 pm

I could see elfy getting 3 past 25th, but anybody knows when you get hps past 25th, they're the lowest, seemingly, you could roll while pre-25. I don't c how elves get cursed w/this fate when *again* psi's do better while statistically and discriptionally, elves are superior. A psi starts off, w/marginal con, at 13 hps at first level. Elfy was 17...so why can an illithid surpass the grey in around 5 levels if they both have perfect con?

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Drache
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Postby Drache » Sun Aug 11, 2002 6:46 pm

Ok, I'm mad! My psi base hps, minus the starting hps, divided by current level minus one. He's got 4.05 hps per level. NOW, elfy, (again, both have perfect innate con - huge sacrifice, but I do it by choice) he's 3.34 hps/level. (Both are 20-25th level, so there's no constant '3' messing up the formula.) Where is the justice? All the others who've replied w/their hps all have well under 4/level. now WHY is that? Squid are weaker and what frustrates me is no staff is posting. I only want to understand better since descriptions are apparently not always the case on char/race choices.

*laugh* Johnny, a first grader, smokes weed but gets straight 'A's and is popular in school. Parents say, "Well, there's not a problem! Nobody's saying anything and everything seems alright." Haha, sorry but that descript is how it makes me feel, no offense. *giggle* Other issues the staff replies to, why not this one... Oh, and please don't flame me cuz I'm not quick enough to come up w/a better analogy Image

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Postby Snurgt » Sun Aug 11, 2002 6:52 pm

I think you need a vacation. 4/5 posts on this page are from you.

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Postby Lilithelle » Sun Aug 11, 2002 9:00 pm

Your elven hps might have been bad luck.

If elf mage hps are 1d4+2 as you suggest, then on 25 rolls you'd expect about 25 times (2 + 2.5). 2.5 being the average on d4. You can check to see if your hps are abnormal, 25(d4+2) is very close to a normal distribution (by the central limit theory). The mean would be 112.5, to see if you were "unlucky", we can calculate the standard deviation of your rolls and compair them to the standard deviation of this normal distribution. Again by the central limit theory the standard deviation of 25(d4+2) to be the standard deviation of (1d4+2) times the square root of 25. The standard deviation of 1d4+2 is 1.18. So the standard deviation of the normal curve will be 1.18 * 5 = 5.9. You can compair that to what you got for hps and test how likely or unlikely it is to roll what you did. For example your hps should be withing 3 stand deviations of the mean 90% of the time. You'll probably find your numbers are well within this range, that you hp totals are just part of the expected randomness.

Been 10 years since I did this stuff so there might be some errors in that.
Lilithelle

[This message has been edited by Lilithelle (edited 08-11-2002).]
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Postby Drache » Sun Aug 11, 2002 9:28 pm

I had a migrane after the first sentence of that! Wow, some elevated math Image I don't know if 1d4 is for hps here, I just know that's what they were in AD&D. Damn, kudos for the cool math though *grin*

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Postby Lilithelle » Sun Aug 11, 2002 9:34 pm

I simplified a bit, it was a bit long. You should test your illithid hps according to the above, you'll probably find it fits nicely into the hp range for elves, ie. there is no real difference between illithid and elf hps.
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Postby Drache » Sun Aug 11, 2002 10:02 pm

So, since my elfy hps are like most others that posted here, it's a shame that they're like illithids. *sigh* Thanks for the help! Very helpful in some conclusion - that elves hps are bein bashed *laugh*

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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Aug 12, 2002 1:20 pm

Drache, you're missing one of the most important points, though. People who typically play elves KNOW they're giving some things up in order to do so. There are newbies that don't, but most everybody else realizes elf hps suck when they roll, and if they don't at first, they do within a couple of levels. It's just part of playing an elf. Just like it used to be more difficult for evils and they didn't complain about it (once upon a time). Most of us know we're taking the knocks on our hps, but the great thing about most elves is that we want a little more of a challenge than rolling up the optimum race for a class. If we didn't want the challenge, we wouldn't stay on that island for 20 levels.
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Postby Drache » Mon Aug 12, 2002 3:24 pm

I don't feel we should just 'accept' it. Something is wrong. If it weren't, why won't they make the descript for the elves different? The rogue elf hps like yours is expected. I tried an elf rogue and got varied hps. The ELF mage is just SOL. 3,3,3,3. How many 50th's posted w/their virtually straightline 3 hp gain? That is the problem. Sure elves are somewhat frail, but again the problem lies that illithids are weaker, get better hps - and certainly not 3's straight. They get up to 6 a level. My invoker never ONCE got a 6 with perfect con. It's a problem, not a compromise to be the magely elf. What other class gets only the lowest roll possible most all the time? Just the elf mage. Both gnomes I tried can get 3's but got 6's just as easily. Certainly not the case for elves.

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Postby Kaede » Mon Aug 12, 2002 4:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
Drache, you're missing one of the most important points, though. People who typically play elves KNOW they're giving some things up in order to do so. There are newbies that don't, but most everybody else realizes elf hps suck when they roll, and if they don't at first, they do within a couple of levels. It's just part of playing an elf. Just like it used to be more difficult for evils and they didn't complain about it (once upon a time). Most of us know we're taking the knocks on our hps, but the great thing about most elves is that we want a little more of a challenge than rolling up the optimum race for a class. If we didn't want the challenge, we wouldn't stay on that island for 20 levels.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't call it a challenge, but more like a severe disadvantage/handicap. A challenge would imply that you can play your class as an elf as well as or better than the same class of another race, however in this case there is no possibility of that (unless some incredibly powerful equipment was added that benefits elves the most). Any long-time elf player would be surprised at the drastic differences at level 50 from choosing a more optimal race.

Of course, one or two hp won't make a difference at low levels, but it does add up once you're at level 50 and notice that you are lacking 50-300 hp. I've always believed that elves are far inferior at level 50, because the benefits of high int and agility (and to a very lesser extent, dexterity and charisma) just do not outweigh the severe consequences of a far lower constitution.

For elven mages that extra half second to one second memtime on 10th circle spells isn't likely to aid you as much as some extra hp would. For elven priests its just a lack in hp, while elven fighters/rogues still suffers the most.

As Salen said, there are no classes that an elf is the ideal choice to play. Elves are still probably the most popular race to play regardless of that fact. So if you wanna play grey, then you gotta pay!

-Kaede
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Postby Ambar » Mon Aug 12, 2002 4:25 pm

for elf .. i'd prefer enchanter or invoker ... grey elf mages rock ... years ago i had a grey elf sorc .. low ass hps but i wouldn't have traded the whole elven thing at ALL ... (this is also why i rolled a drow elf cause i miss my lil elfie ears)


my original points still exist .. leave the elfgate IN ... and mages in general (mt dorfs and duergar dorfs excluded) are more frail than the other classes .. my baby drow elf enchanter (lvl 43) has 190 hps nekkid .. but you know what?? i expected it ... i still say the more powerful classes SHOULD be this way .. it's called racial and class balance (my drow weighs like 86 pounds .. my ogre 1055 Image ....... goooo Ambar :P)

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Postby Malacar » Mon Aug 12, 2002 4:55 pm

190 is high.

Especially at 43. you'll have 211hps at 50.

That's a lot. Plus you get innates.

Elfgate had a place IN THE PAST. It has no place currently. All it serves to do, is drive newbie elves away.

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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Aug 12, 2002 5:19 pm

That's what I was saying, Kaede. People who choose grey are not choosing the race because grey is a better race for any given class... it's not, and that's obvious. If you're socially inclined, then don't get stuck on the island until 20. If you're a power player, then don't give up the hitpoints, equipment selection (unless you really want to go evil when your hometown is aggro-evil... but I think that would be more of an inconvenience than a real problem at higher levels), and that extra hit I have heard halfling rogues get.

One benefit I have noticed about greys though, is that they generally tend to show a greater amount of support for their fellow elves than the other good races do for their fellows. The ones who actually spent the time on the island, instead of having friends well over to plevel them, seem to be much more willing to take that long boat ride in order to go back and help out the little elves who show up. I've had other elves take the long ride home to try to help me gear up a little alt, to help me scribe spells, to help get me some experience and give me some company. I'm a diehard elf, they all hooked me. (Insert: This is one reason I'm so very against the fireflies who track out into the path home to EM, I hate the idea of discouraging the camaraderie which is fostered by those who take that long trip back just to help their elven brothers and sisters.)

Maybe I'm a little strange, but I'm all for keeping all the disadvantages of being an elf. If elves were the optimum race then half the goodies would be playing elves, and I think greys would lose something that makes them special. We all know that elves kind of get shafted on surviveability, but many of the high level elves seem to have developed a certain style of playing over time, and the ones that are high level for a decent amount of time... well you just know they have a good idea of what they're doing, because they HAVE to be on their toes a little bit more.

I know, I know, I'm probably totally deluded, but I was kind of disappointed when evils started getting all the recent lovin' and upgrades. I always thought it was a badge of honor for them to not only muddle through when it was more difficult for them, but to thrive and be able to accomplish everything that the goodraces did. They HAD to give more to it, they HAD to be on their toes, they HAD to be some of the best players the mud had to offer, because anything else just wouldn't cut it. Kaede's one of the top rogues around because he's an excellent player (and really likeable). Lilithelle's one of the top druids because she's an excellent player (and really likeable). I just happen to think working with the handicaps of reduced surviveability, or those of the more limited races, helps to create even better players out of players who are willing to stick it out and give it the effort it requires (and being a grey helps toward the likeable part, too). Except for me, I'm still a noob.

Perhaps there is something wrong with the hps of small casters, I don't think my chanter has ever gotten more than three hps per level. When I hit forty and started comparing myself to other rogues and noticed the great big hps gap between them and me, I got pretty depressed for a while... but I got over it and learned to work around it for the most part. I've even intentionally chosen to forego wearing sharkskin eq, although wearing it would mean more hps for me, because I simply don't want to look like every other rogue.

Sheesh, I am babbling way too much. I'm just trying to say that what seems like a flaw isn't always, and can sometimes serve as a benefit in ways you don't expect, and can't always see.

::Ashiwi dons her rose-colored glasses and prances off into the sunset.::
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Postby Salen » Mon Aug 12, 2002 9:11 pm

I would so buy that Ash if not for one thing. Ever DG we have seen in SJ3 has been a blanket 'It's for balance'. In the face of obviously unbalance ad/disad for elves, there still is nothing changed. Supposedly the agi/dex would make up for the missing HP. Yeah right.

Would I give up the 20 levels on EM at wipe... I don't know.

Would I ever do it again without dumping huge hp eq on and doing it really fast... NO.

Elves literally have nothing to show for a 50-150 hp loss except the ability to go into Leuth. Since I have been grouped with humans who were standing at CC, I know that is no big deal.

The question isn't did we know we were gettign screwed. Yeah we knew, most of us anyway. The question is, in the 'for balance' era of SJ3 are elves balanced. NO they aren't. HP> All

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Postby Jegzed » Mon Aug 12, 2002 9:27 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Salen:
The question isn't did we know we were gettign screwed. Yeah we knew, most of us anyway. The question is, in the 'for balance' era of SJ3 are elves balanced. NO they aren't. HP> All </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Drow = Grey Elf with ultravision.

And evils think drows are super-overpowerful compared to Yuan-Ti and Duergar Image



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Postby Yayaril » Mon Aug 12, 2002 9:35 pm

If Hp>all Salen, then why is there another thread bitching about Ogres being so weak? They do get the best hps in the game, hands down. Let me break this down for you folks again- advantages vs. disadvantages for playing mages on the goody side for different races:

Human: Average all about, with the highest hitpoints. Not the fastest memmers, but they gain a bonus to surviveability. Capable of starting off in Waterdeep, the main hang out for goodies.

Elf: Trade in strength and constitution for faster mem times, better natural armor class, higher hitrolls and a chance at an extra attack. They are the most charismatic race around, if that's any consolation. Can't leave elf island until level 20, which is an advantage and a disadvantage.

Gnome: More hardy than elves, but not quite as hardy as a human due to their small stature, they mem as fast as elves but aren't nearly agile or dextrous.

Halfling: Only freaks play halfling mages!

All in all, the difference in hitpoints for the different races of mage is nominal. My human mage has like 215 hps naked- not much more than the elf or gnome mages. Of course, there will be lots of disparity between those who roll the best hitpoints for their human and those who roll the worst hitpoints for their elf. Elves aren't inferior. Elves aren't superior either, and I think this bothers those hardcore elf-loving players.

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Postby Drache » Mon Aug 12, 2002 9:52 pm

Yayaril..gnomes have same dex as elves, last I checked. Both max 7 hitroll. What's funny is at higher levels, the agility means nothing, even in ssc w/-100 and perfect innate agility, you'll get hit about 50% from lone mercs and rholf and the named mobs will own you if mage trying to tank. Mages shouldn't tank to begin with so dex/agi isn't any help. It's like putting mags on a Yugo.

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[This message has been edited by Drache (edited 08-12-2002).] Oh yeah, when I checked halfling max charisma, stuff is same for grey elf and halfling. They're not the highest in charisma either

[This message has been edited by Drache (edited 08-12-2002).]
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Aug 12, 2002 9:57 pm

At higher levels, agility means plenty. Its what your dodge skill works off of, and I've seen plenty of people get totally owned because their agility sucks whilst being earthquaked.

High agility lends its power to a lot of skills too- especially for rogues. Evade, sneak, and escape just to name a few.

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Postby Kerath » Mon Aug 12, 2002 10:09 pm

After having played a fair spread of races, I'm kind of astonished at some people saying that -100 ac doesn't do much and that high agi is not a big deal.

Hrrm...

As a grey elf with high agi, do you get critted much? And when you do, how much does it hit you for, typically? Well, if that doesn't seem like a perk, try playing an ogre, and watch the crits come in fast and heavy. They modified agi so that it has a -large- impact on crits. Playing my troll with 100 agi, crits weren't too common, and when they hit, they weren't such a big deal. As a duergar elementalist, crits were slamming me against the wall and making me cry.

And as for -100 ac, yes, you will get hit. Plenty. The MUD tries to get you to group instead of soloing. But, try fighting something with -100 ac, then fight the same mob with a higher ac. Of course, you'll get hit more often, but keep tabs on how much you get hit for each time. Put your gear back on, and notice the difference when hits connect. It's significant, believe me. The AC absorption rate is nothing to sneeze at, and I'm usually happy to have it.

This is just based on my observation, leveling up a bunch of lower characters as well as having one or two on the high end. I always try to roll for at least decent agi, because it really does help, and not just for avoiding quakes.
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Postby Drache » Mon Aug 12, 2002 10:15 pm

What's odd for the agility notch is that half elves/gnomes/halflings are in same bracket. Human/mt.dwarf/duergar are in same *all considering perfect agi only, meaning the 70 ac innate* it's hard for a doog/dorf to hit that unless heroic.

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Postby Treladian » Tue Aug 13, 2002 1:16 am

Yaya: Gnomes ARE just about as agile and dextrous as elves. Gnome dex = elf dex, and neither are much higher than human dex. Halflings have a huge lead over anything else dexwise. Gnome agility (and also troll agility) is only one notch less than elven agility and that last notch isn't that big of an advantage compared to hitpoints. Hildippie tanked excellently because of the extremely high agility he got from a gnome as well as his mix of hp and AC gear, not just his caster-like array of hp stuff.

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Postby Drache » Tue Aug 13, 2002 7:45 am

I just leveled again..another 3 hps. This is such crap it's not funny! Hitpoints are the essence of life. Perfect con should give a range of hps. It's 3 hp radar! Elf sited and locked! I'm getting so pissed Image Why the HELL don't these mages have the _range_ of hps that all other classes do?! *sigh*

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Postby cherzra » Tue Aug 13, 2002 8:01 am

Does any mage care about 3 or 4 hp levels with 700hp of eq awaiting you? Image

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Postby Drache » Tue Aug 13, 2002 8:04 am

Considering I've been knocked to -3 or worse far too often, yes, EVERY hp counts

[This message has been edited by Drache (edited 08-13-2002).]
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Postby Ambar » Tue Aug 13, 2002 10:59 am

We also have to consider racial stats vs actual ... Both of my char's have about the same agil .. but the ogre gets thrown on her ass all the time in earthquakes and my drow doesnt ...

i HEARD drow 100 int = about 118 human?? so is my drow with 115 int actually at 133?? not sure of exact numbers but you get the idea ... hell im not even sure if this is true .. i dont have vast D&D knowledge to support my claim ....

my ogre has lower stre than the drow but can the drow lift the ogre's pack?? nope .. nor can a mt. dwarf .. tried it ...

i'd love to see the numbers on equivalent stats .. all based on human ofc ...

on a side note ... oops i have said it before .. my tiny little drow dies less in zones than does my MUCH larger and sturdier ogre (we are talking 300 hps difference with the same eq) ... what stat makes this true?? is it because my drow reduced is a tiny little pebble where my ogre reduced is a beachball? (rofl)

help me understand!

keep elfgate ... keep level 20 restrition .....

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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Aug 13, 2002 1:14 pm

Yes, there can be rather large differences in actual numbers due to racial differences. I have no idea what the actual numbers are here on Sojourn, but 100 does not necessarily equal 100 in the same stat for a different race.

Humans are baseline, which basically means their 100 = 100, but racial differences may cause that 100 to equal anywhere from 86 to 135 (or thereabouts) for another race. 100 just means you're maxed for YOUR race.
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Postby Malacar » Tue Aug 13, 2002 3:55 pm

Let's put an elfgate in for drow then, since you seem to say drow are the equivalent. Let's punish them both.

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Postby moritheil » Tue Aug 13, 2002 9:06 pm

Elves wear elf only eq, have melodious names, and get trials early on that weed out those not cut out for the rigors of the race.

Those of you who made it, wear the name with pride; those of you who didn't, well, perhaps hps are all to you Image

I'll say one more thing, though: Leuthilspar >> WD.

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Postby Eilorn » Tue Aug 13, 2002 9:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B>I'll say one more thing, though: Leuthilspar >> WD.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Moritheil,

It must have been hundreds of years since you've been to Leuthilspar... Leuthilspar does not have the same glory it once had. The docks are empty of ships and sailors, it's been many a year since a ship has graced our fair shores. It has become quite rundown in splendor... there is an abandoned necromancer guild on the north side of the city, the oracle has lost her muse, humans walk our streets (though, how they arrive I know not, as the elfgate has become somewhat unreliable, not allowing everyone through), and the elven hosts have become scarce. Sigh, I fear the Leuthilspar you recall is no more.

Eilorn.

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[This message has been edited by Eilorn (edited 08-13-2002).]
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Postby Burpie » Tue Aug 13, 2002 11:09 pm

It seems what nobody is acknowledging, according to Drache, is that there is no 'range' of hps that the elven mage seems to get. I don't know, as I don't play them. Everybody is saying racial this etc. Why would the hitpoints not be a ranger of low's and high's like warriors and other classes get? I've had, loong ago, a barbarian conjurer. Some levels he rolled high, others low. For a class to get mostly three's consistantly, that would indicate a problem.

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Postby Ambar » Wed Aug 14, 2002 2:57 am

Nothing new here please drive through (misread someone's post, ranted..posted..re-read and retracted :P)

But I will say I'm perfectly fine with Telina's hps (worked it out ... I have gotten like an average of 3.41 per level)

level 43 drow enchanter with a decent set (bleh no eldritches tho) 614 unvitted


[This message has been edited by Ambar (edited 08-13-2002).]
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Postby Malacar » Wed Aug 14, 2002 4:25 am

I'm all for drow getting an elfgate so they cannot leave their hometown area either. If anything, drow are even more xenophobic than grey elves.

Some theme needs to be sacrificed for playability, or new players will all but vanish.

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Malacar - omg ymir!

[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 08-14-2002).]
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Postby Ensis » Wed Aug 14, 2002 7:19 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Drache:
<B>I just leveled again..another 3 hps. This is such crap it's not funny! Hitpoints are the essence of life. Perfect con should give a range of hps. It's 3 hp radar! Elf sited and locked! I'm getting so pissed Image Why the HELL don't these mages have the _range_ of hps that all other classes do?! *sigh*


Make elf hps 1-3 instead of just 3.


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



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Yayaril
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Aug 14, 2002 8:07 pm

Malacar is of the 'If I can't be happy, no one should be happy' persuasion.

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Postby Rivi » Wed Aug 14, 2002 8:28 pm

I think getting the lowest hp when leveling is the same for all classes/races under certain conditions. I'm not sure what conditions are but generally if you get to level 10 in 1 hour's play time you'll have gotten the minimum for your race/class combination. I remember having some power leveling equipment and found that this was the case regardless of stats that i rolled. Although this was back a few wipes ago, I doubt they would have changed this.
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Postby Malacar » Wed Aug 14, 2002 9:27 pm

No Yayaril, I am trying to make the point that my idea is absurd, as is the current elfgate.

Why should one single race on the mud, which isn't even the most powerful, be penalized this way? Theme is a weak excuse. If this were Theme based, drow would never leave the underdark except for border raids. They wouldn't associate with trolls or duergar(whom they view as SLAVES), except when such races are considered subordinates, let alone ogres. I won't even go into Illithids.

Theme needs to be sacrificed for playability, if you want to say that I want to make everyone not happy, fine, go nuts, and make yourself happy. The simple truth is that it does more harm than good.

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Postby Drache » Wed Aug 14, 2002 9:40 pm

I've never thought about that point, Mal..If what you say is correct about drow and all, that is kinda odd. Maybe greys are the 'secret' evil of the goods so they're harder to play? Hmm. Your logic is right on the money.

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Postby Yayaril » Wed Aug 14, 2002 10:04 pm

Human necros and anti-paladins starting off in Bloodstone have many difficulties equal to or greater than those encountered by the elves. Every race has its own advantages and disadvantages. I wouldn't call being trapped on the island until level 20 to be a total disadvantage, as pointed out by other elves, who don't seem to be quite as jaded as you. The same with Bloodstone- it may be difficult, but I've seen newbies flourish there and in the end, they are of the hardier type.

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Postby Drache » Wed Aug 14, 2002 10:53 pm

I would have thought due to the evil nature of necro/anti-p that the hardship was par of the class. Why so hard for grey and not drow? Let alone that hp problem isn't there for humans.

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Postby Malacar » Thu Aug 15, 2002 1:28 am

Yaya, with your examples, it is POSSIBLE to leave those areas, even if difficult.

We don't even have that option.

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Malacar - omg ymir!
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Postby Salen » Thu Aug 15, 2002 2:07 am

Yaya. With the exception of dying, who spends more than a few seconds in BS?


Oh, don't forget, only grey elves can't be ress'd below 20th level. Little elf trivia for you.

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Postby Ambar » Thu Aug 15, 2002 8:37 am

hrrmmm don't like elfdom?? You think elves suck that bad??

play a halfelf!!! or don't play elf at all.. play a gnome mage or a dorf cleric ... play a halfling rogue ...

why do you suppose grey elves can't be ressed til lvl 20??? hrrmmmm can u see the twinks if you could???

anyone else notice this thread is going nowhere?? just like a political issue .. you can holler and scream all u want but noone's minds are changing ... im not right because you are wrong (tho u are wrong *rofl im friggin joking*)


btw ...

- keep the elfgate asis
- keep the level restriction asis
- keep all races other than elves OUT of Leuthilspar

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Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Thu Aug 15, 2002 11:37 am

And that's the exact reason I'd like to see this changed.

Folks that don't play greys anymore(by the way, greys are twinked repeatedly out with gear, it's the only way to get off that frigging island in a reasonable amount of time) putting their 2 cents in about something they used to know. 'Go play another class'. Standard lines, old lines.

Plus I noticed you skipped the part on my notes about drow.


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Malacar - omg ymir!
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Postby Jegzed » Thu Aug 15, 2002 11:40 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
Plus I noticed you skipped the part on my notes about drow.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. Drows are not as xenophobic as greys.

2. I completely agree that the level restriction on greys leaving sucks.

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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Aug 15, 2002 1:51 pm

Love the island, love the elfgates, started with nothing both last wipe and this wipe and loved it, love the other elves who are like an extended family of sorts (for most), love seeing a little level 20 elf fresh from the island dressed head to toe in island gear because I know there's going to be another player who has the determination it took.

I started here last wipe with a mainland character, didn't really care for it and went back to the original mud I'd hailed from for a while until a friend talked me into coming back and giving Sojourn another try. I rolled up a grey elf for my second character, and leveling on the island was one of the best mudding experiences I'd had. The island is just big enough, there's usually very little squabbling for overcrowded exp zones, the zones are fun, and there's almost always another elf who will come running if you ever need serious help (like in those darned su-monsters, or if the manticore gets on the road). I've played elves ever since, and I hope the restrictions stay just like they are. Grey elves are one of the few races where the RP element is more fostered than shoved aside for convenience. Now that evils are getting all their upgrades and lovin', greys are among the rapidly diminishing subculture of the "tightly-knit" within Sojourn's populace. Dumbing them down isn't going to make them better.
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Postby Malacar » Thu Aug 15, 2002 2:35 pm

Drows are just as xenophobic, if not moreso.

Greys will work with other races more often than drow.. And not destroy them afterwards.

Drow are notorious for being greedy and selfish. They wouldn't work with another race unless something was in it for them(And even then, would be condescending and haughty(just like greys) towards these 'companions', because, just like greys, they consider themselves superior in every way), and afterwards, would likely slay the cooperative party.

If you want RP, you're on the wrong place.. Muds are now, and have always been historically, combat oriented. Forcing RP on everyone isn't really justified. I come here to fight, not to RP. I applaud those that do, because the environ just doesn't provide for it.

I can name numerous places where if you want D&D role-playing flavor, you can role-play til your heart's content.

P.S.: Dentists suck.

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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Aug 15, 2002 2:50 pm

Malacar, suggesting that if somebody wants a particular style of play they should go somewhere else isn't exactly going to pull in new players by the droves, either. Yes, the glory days of RP for Sojourn appear to be gone, but all I'm suggesting is that grey elves offer a slightly higher RP atmosphere than most of the other races. Those who are attracted to that atmosphere may enjoy playing grey elves. Is reducing everything to its most simple terms, and devolving to only hack and slash really the best way to bring in players? This argument has been hashed over and over, but I still believe that Sojourn was one of the greatest muds because of the challenges it offered. Slowly we're weeding out the challenges and making it easier on everybody but zoning groups, and there are arguments that zoning is much easier, as well. If you want less of a challenge wouldn't it be better to apply the attitude of 'play a less challenging race' instead of 'play somewhere else?'

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