Idea for Druid

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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:07 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B>You are going to get 0 sympathy about your class being nerfed from a warrior buddy, sorry to tell you, but we need tweaking alot worse than u guys do.
Druids keep getting nerfed, but none of it is rediculous and none of it kills your class. Soloability is not a trait on which a classes power is based, and neither is the ability to blind mobs without aggroing them. Sucks that you get nerfed, but its not like they ruined your class.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Opinions vary. Obviously, Celor doesn't agree with you Image

I'm not looking for sympathy, Thanuk. I'm rationalizing Celor's posts, and the irritation that many dr00ds feel.

Are you looking for sympathy?

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Postby thanuk » Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:51 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B> Read my post more carefully, I don't argue against the realism. I simply state that we have had nerf after nerf after nerf.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like a cry for sympathy to me!

No mori, i dont need any sympathy. Everyone already knows that warriors and melee are all farked up, its common knowledge. Your posts all seem to imply that druids need an upgrade, although you dont come out and say it. I don't think that they do, i think druids are uber powerful. I also think that all the downgrades you complain about dont effect your role in a group at all, they just limit your ability to solo things, which shouldn't really be a factor in class balancing cuz your not supposed to be able to solo things.

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Postby Tanji Smanji » Fri Jan 31, 2003 10:49 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B> Blah Blah Blah... they just limit your ability to solo things, which shouldn't really be a factor in class balancing cuz your not supposed to be able to solo things.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Damn, glad no one bothered to mention this to me! Off to solo astral!

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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Sat Feb 01, 2003 1:14 pm

Thanuk, most of the trouble I now encounter with sunray IS in group situations.

If PWB were removed from all mages, they could still get groups, but I guarantee you there would be complaints, and rightly so.
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Postby Celor » Sat Feb 01, 2003 5:04 pm

thanuk wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B> Read my post more carefully, I don't argue against the realism. I simply state that we have had nerf after nerf after nerf.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like a cry for sympathy to me!

No mori, i dont need any sympathy. Everyone already knows that warriors and melee are all farked up, its common knowledge. Your posts all seem to imply that druids need an upgrade, although you dont come out and say it. I don't think that they do, i think druids are uber powerful. I also think that all the downgrades you complain about dont effect your role in a group at all, they just limit your ability to solo things, which shouldn't really be a factor in class balancing cuz your not supposed to be able to solo things.

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Thanuk Pantherclaw

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no its our abilities in groups that i'm talking about.. not soloing ability.. sure i mentioned that we cant solo as much as other classes.. but jsut to compare our abilities.. other classes are much more useful in groups.. and they can solo more as a bonus.. as for warriors needing upgrades? i have no clue.. never played one.. i know melee damage isnt all that great and may need an upgrade.. but lets see.. put an warrior against a mage.. what happens.. bash.. slash slash.. bash.. dead.. i mean he wont even get off a spell.. so you want crazy damage in addition to that. lemme tell you something.. cant do a zone without at least one warrior.. usually more.. you cant.. i dont care how many pali's or anti's you get. they dont replace a good warrior... i dont see people giving up on doing a zone cuz they cant find a druid.. and we are pretty useless indoors or out of nature.. forget damage.. unless you have doom.. your not doing any damage.. your not gonna heal in a zone with a big group.. clerics will.. sunray is handy.. thats about it.. but again only if whole zone is aggro
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Postby Daz » Sun Feb 02, 2003 6:26 am

complaints about druids? im not even gonna read the thread, the title says it all. i have one, too.

there are too many of them.

make clerics.
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Postby amolol » Thu Feb 06, 2003 5:52 pm

i under stand your complaints..i really do...but you got nothing on rangers... they cant solo arent a big advantage in groups cant tank worth a damn and just alround suck...shure they get that bow...try using one solo...shure they get melee damage..as stated above it aint all that great, bash...dont make me laugh...rescue he once again cant tank...barkskin...druids do it way better and get more of those spells ...shure we can heal...if we can live long anough to cast a spell...humm what else am i missing...oh yea casting damage...*laugh*...um i think thats about it..next lets do bards...



all im saying is druids have it off alot better than alot of other classes...they are useful in groups and every zone ive been in a druid has been assigned to heal so that didnt work to well celor druids are kick ass... ok so they cont do alot of damage unless in nature...druids arent damage based...they are cleric type thats why they get tha massive healing and word ect ect...your point is moot
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Postby Daz » Thu Feb 06, 2003 10:04 pm

amolol you sound like you should be playing an invoker.

if you don't realize the potential of the ranger class, you are playing it quite wrong.
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Postby amolol » Fri Feb 07, 2003 12:31 am

im not saying rangers arent great and im not saying they dont have great potentiol..im saying that druids are better off than alot of other classes...just using ranger cause it was the first that came to mind..i could have started with bard if i wanted to...what im saying is without uber eq rangers cant do a hole lot on there own and i dont know about alot of other ppl but my ranger almoast never gets in groups...mebbe its just cause im new to mudding and i suck at it... but i thought the entire point of a game was to have fun...silly me guess im wrong...but any way 8i was just trying to make a point not dissing on rangers or saying there worthless..there actually quite useful in a cram but they do have quite a few drawbacks
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Postby gordex » Tue Feb 11, 2003 11:55 pm

Druids are primarly used for sunray, vit and moonwell. Doom, and bark are novelties that are not needed, but wanted. I have listed below the druid spell chart and will elaborate on 5th circle spells and up.


Druid spells

1st circle: goodberry, create water, cure light, detect magic,
cause light, shillelagh

2nd circle: bless, word of recall, cure serious, vigorize light,
detect evil, detect good, preserve, cause serious,
faerie fire, protection from animals, sticks to snakes

3rd circle: vigorize serious, protection from fire, protection from
cold, protection from lightning, protection from gas,
protection from acid, faerie fog, barkskin, summon insects

4th circle: cure critic, earthquake, sense life, cause critical,
create spring, dust devil, transport via plants, summon (still not in "help skill_druid" list, I had to add it here)

5th circle: call lightning, vigorize critic, dispel magic, sunray,
control weather


Sunray has been hosed a few times, making is less useful than prism for blinding, and it is the number 1 reason druids are in groups. Control Weather is not as useful as I would like, but I will talk about that later.


6th circle: continual light, heal, firestorm, suffocate, insect
plague, fear, vitality, changestaff, harm

Vit is needed for just about anything. Bettered by cleric vits, as well it should. Suffocate = silence, with dam on unshielded mobs. Heal is good for soloing and possibly saving a group members ass, yet I can normally only mem 2, do to meming 1 vit and 4 suff's. Changestaff is awesome for soloing, and hardly needed for zones. Treants are your best friend as a druid since they rescue pretty well. Continual light is a decent utility spell, but we dont have darkness to remove lit items, so choose what you light wisely :P. Harm, firestorm, insent plague and fear are useless spells.

7th circle: cyclone, pass without trace, flame blade

Cyclone is pretty much useless do to weather (which I will talk about later). Maybe give it the chance to disarm since our 4th circle version is worthless later in the game? PWT used to kick ass when it would last longer. Now it is a novelty spell that is used seldomly. Flame Blade is my only reliable single target spell from here on out, and does decent damage to boot.

8th circle: water breathing, rock to mud, mud to rock, fire seeds

Water Breathing is almost worthless since the fishbone earring is pretty easy to get. Rock to mud and mud to rock are useless. Fire seeds kicks ass in nature rooms, and moderate damage otherwise and you only get the full effect (all 4 seeds) at high levels.

9th circle: (*) planeshift, hailstorm, entangle, dessicate

Planeshift is a cool spell. Hailstorm and Dessicate are cool concepts, but are tough to implement effectively due to the way the rooms in the mud have been flagged. Hailstorm gives the ability to slow mobs, but it hardly ever slows. Dessicate breaks stoneskin, but that hardly ever works since stoned mobs usually lose their stone from the hitters before I finish the spell. Hailstorm gets full effectiveness in cold and dessicate in EXTREMELY hot weather, which needs to be fixed btw, by not having to make it SO damn hot to get full effect. Entangle is now a good spell since it can be used anywhere.

10th circle: (*) creeping doom, (*) moonwell

Moonwell can only be used on the prime plane, which limits its effectiveness, however it still beats running. This should not be changed however, because I can think of MANY ways to cheese the hell out of it if it were interplanar and it would make gate obsolete. Doom rocks the house, and is the secondary damage spell I use when soloing, and primary when in groups.
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We have many useful spells, in and of themselves. The restrictions due to weather or nature make those spells not as useful, or useless. There have been many places where I want to change weather (control weather), but I often get the message "somone already has control of the weather here". I can't get full value out of those spells, because many of the places where I can use them have set weather patterns that cannot be changed by my magic, or I am indoors, and cannot change the weather indoors. Some spells of point here are hailstorm, dessicate and cyclone. 9th, 9th, and 7th respectively.

As for the "need/want" for druids in a group. As far as I can tell, there are 4 classes that are needed. That's right, 4, not 3. Warriors, Clerics, Enchanters and Shamans. Other classes make it easier on the group to reach its objective.

In conclusion, druids are a solid class, but the downgrades over the past 8 months have diminished the class quite substantially to what they were at the beginning of the wipe. Some of the downgrades I agree with, some I do not. The nature room and unchangeable weather patterns issues have needed to be addressed for some time now. I think that is near the end of a very long list of to-do's though. I will post more when I think of more ideas. This is just my 2 cents :)

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Postby Deshana » Wed Feb 12, 2003 3:50 am

Ok first, Amolol, Massive healing?!

Did somene forget to tell me we had massive healing??! I missed that memo.
91 hp heals do not constitute massive healing. not when it takes me two mems worth to heal to full, just me.
Trees are nice for blocking, nice for bashing Kostie, nice for sending lit pets.
you have to be in nature to cast them

Sunray only works in daylight. Pris blinds far better then sunray and doesn't have 12 min off times.

So we have pets we can get half the time if that, and an area blind that is half as effective as pris half the time. Oh and we can heal 91 hp at a time, with heal skill at 99. I'm in a group now. They try to ghettowell first, gee.. lemme think. I feel needed :P

and as to the Lilithelle argument. There is only one lilithelle. Shall we all roll something else and let her do the druiding cause we all suck because maybe we can't DO what she does? Don't hold Lilithelle as the rule, shes the exception. We try hard. but we're not all lilithelle. if anything shes somthing to aspire to, but well. again, we're not all Lili. She rocks, don't get me wrong.

Some druids say suffocate is less then cleric silences, others like me, land it frequently. but Silences take up a heal slot. so does vit. its all the same circle. Amolol I suggest you level a druid and solo heal somthing a few dozen times before you say that.

Druids don't need to be downgraded, but we could sure use somthing to make us a little less UN-needed.

Deshana, wondering where her uberhealing skills are hidden, was there a spellquest i missed?
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Postby amolol » Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:07 am

sorry desh was getting a little confused there....

your pointing out the bad points there...and i agree that there is quite a few but i also think that there are lots of bonuses to the class and yes i have played a druid....

as for the lili thing if you look at all of my posts here you will see me referring to her as the "exception" and alot of times i have stated that she is just plain good at what she does where as all of us arent as gifted as that.

what i am basicly saying is though druids may not get the uber healing clerics do they get more healing than pali's or ranger's plus they get a pet (i know back to the pet thing) though they may tank like a rogue and bash like a ranger and can only be made about 50% of the time (in nature rooms only) you still get one and that makes you better than alot of the other classes plus you get the area blind thing....though it has been nerfed several times is basicly crap now unless your in an aggro zone and you get some pretty cool nature spells the antire thing can basicly be solved by waiting for them to add mor nature zones.... there are 2 things that would make alot of ppl happy right now, though (no offence to the gods) i dont see happening any time soon cause ppl are either just to lazy dont care or are affraid of a pwipe is.......add more nature zones so the nature fre4aks are happy about druid damage and the whole bit and fix melee that would solve alot of problems...at least from my vew
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Postby gordex » Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:49 am

amolol wrote:what i am basicly saying is though druids may not get the uber healing clerics do they get more healing than pali's or ranger's


Druids having more healing THAN A HITTER class means less than dick!

amolol wrote:plus they get a pet (i know back to the pet thing) though they may tank like a rogue and bash like a ranger and can only be made about 50% of the time (in nature rooms only) you still get one and that makes you better than alot of the other classes


Rogues tank MUCH better. Rangers bash better since they actually have a chance at bashing alot of mobs whereas the treant can only bash ENORMOUS mobs (giant or bigger).

amolol wrote: plus you get the area blind thing....though it has been nerfed several times is basicly crap now unless your in an aggro zone and you get some pretty cool nature spells the antire thing can basicly be solved by waiting for them to add mor nature zones....


Adding nature rooms will do nothing to solve the PROBLEM.

amolol wrote:there are 2 things that would make alot of ppl happy right now, though (no offence to the gods) i dont see happening any time soon cause ppl are either just to lazy dont care or are affraid of a pwipe is.......add more nature zones so the nature fre4aks are happy about druid damage and the whole bit and fix melee that would solve alot of problems...at least from my vew


Again, adding nature rooms/zones is not a fix. Fixing melee has nothing to do with druids. Changing flags on current rooms with respect to nature and weather would be a much better fix. That, however, is not a job that anyone would want to take on I think,

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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Thu Feb 13, 2003 3:08 pm

Druids are THE ONLY CASTER CLASS with an area blind spell ONLY, and NO single targeted area blind. I don't understand what part of this escapes non-druids. Sunray now is worthless in many, many situations because it will definitely agro mobs you do not want to agro. In the past, it COULD agro those mobs, but you had the option of taking the chance. Now, it WILL agro those mobs, no doubt.

Hell, even eles with glitterdust get pwb later on... can druids just get PWB then?

Amolol, your inability to do things as a ranger should not weigh into the druid plight. Heck, you even have nature spells druids don't. Nor should Thanuk's impotence as a warrior. That's like saying, Enchanters are powerful, so we must downgrade warriors more. Does that make sense? No. Then neither does it make sense to say "warriors are weak, downgrade other classes."
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Postby old depok » Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:48 pm

Here is my opinion of Sunray...

Why should this spell be different than any other agro area spell? I can't think of a single other area spell that targets only those mobs that you are fighting and not all of the mobs in the room.

The fact that it DIDNT agro others in the room previously would be a bug in my opinion.

Just my thoughts.

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Postby Verarb » Thu Feb 13, 2003 7:06 pm

hrm i may be wrong but nightmare?
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Postby Bilraex » Thu Feb 13, 2003 7:07 pm

but nightmare is a target spell, it just has secondary effects to other mobs in the room
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Postby Verarb » Thu Feb 13, 2003 7:18 pm

help sunray has it as a target spell as well, hurts the undead you target more than others, you can consider the blinds as secondary effects as well. Actually i think sunray and nightmare are very similar in that respect.
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Postby Deshana » Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:28 am

Right Verarb.
Sunray in fact used to be a secondary effect of having a chance of blinding the other things in the room.

Area of effect: <victim>, with lesser effects on others in room
Aggressive: Yes
Cumulative: No
Duration: Dependent on proficiency of caster
Class/Circle: Druid 5th
Type of spell: Nature

A successful sunray causes blindness to all those in the room not
grouped with the caster. It does a lot of damage to an undead victim,
and a lesser amount of damage to all other undead in the room.

so lemme see.. one useful indoors attack spell. on a casting based class.

Take airship for example.
can't area most of the fights.
so what. we suffocate (indoors so weakened) and flameblade.
Might as well use sticks as fire seeds indoors. heh. not too far away on the damage scale.

so yes it works in agro zones. heh a chanter casting pris has a far far better chance at blinding anything.
it only works at night

We're not a melee class.. we're casters that at this point don't have a heck of a lot going for us indoors.

get us out doors, or in a place everything is agro/undead/ect and we kick butt, but thats what.. 3 maybe four zones where a druid is truely powerful and useful? heh.. ever gone to SG without doom as a druid? Cyclone may be owie in the hands of mobs but if the chanter doesn't have airy we might as well sit with our thumbs .. well you get the idea.

so why do I still play a druid?
there are certain situations and zones where I can still manage to feel useful.
Druid suits my roleplay as other classes do not
I like to be helpful, and well lets me go almost anywhere to help newbies.
I personally can never remember what i did with my spellbooks THIS TIME as a mage class. (lost my spellbook 5x before level 10. skilled or what?)
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