Idea for Druid

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Celor
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Idea for Druid

Postby Celor » Thu Jan 16, 2003 4:38 pm

As a druid i can tell you that its become increasingly difficult to be of much use in any situation thats not outdoors.. and even when we're outdoors.. we're not always in a nature room.. now with sunray changed.. (which i do agree with.. i'd be annoyed if someone sunrayed me in the face too..) it renders us pretty much useless in non-nature rooms.. in addition to this.. our pets suck.. sure they're half decent warriors.. but they cant tank for $hit.. shaman spirits can tank.. shades can tank.. air and fire mentals can tank.. trees cant.. trees cant even bash anyone not gigantic.. not to say its not useful against malice.. and such.. but its not practical.. i suggest a new spell.. either a stone skin type spell.. or a displace type spell.. or even a blur type spell.. something that will help us either when soloing or when in a group.. i mean if you have a chanter, and a cleric, you dont need a druid anymore.. especially cuz we cant sunray without aggroing everyone else now.. i dunno..i think the classes are just out of balance now.. we dont even really need moonwell anymore with people gwelling all over the place.. oh and another thing.. whats up with no outdoor sneak? we're supposed to be one with nature.. so much so that our spells have reduced effectiveness when we're not in nature.. and we cant even sneak outdoors? that makes sense.. i dunno.. think about it Image
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Postby moritheil » Thu Jan 16, 2003 5:09 pm

I'd like to see different types of indoor rooms. I.e. a cave is indoor but why should that make it unnatural? We should perhaps have spells that make stalagmites fall or something that could be at full effectiveness in caves, that could replace our foresty spells when we go indoors (requiring us to remem).

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Celor
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Postby Celor » Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:50 pm

Thats a good idea, but we still need something to improve our abilities indoors.. pass without trace working indoors would rock.. like mislead.. though i guess it wouldnt make much sense.. i still think a stone/blur/displace would be the best... that way we have the abilities somewhat of a chanter/illusionist.. but cant replace them.. however we will be useful in groups.. and in soloing since our pets cant tank.. the last idea.. would be to improve the tanking abilities of our trees.. trees should also have some MR.. except to fire.. since they are trees.. tough.. old.. resistant to a lot
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Postby old depok » Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:44 pm

Ok I know lilithelle is uber and all but she has solo'd more mobs than anyone I know as a Druid.

I am all for helping out the classes and Druids should be looked at, but saying that it is hard to solo things as a druid is hard to swallow.

Also, if you have a chanter and a cleric you don't need much of anything else for a group. It is hard for a group to do a zone without a chanter and a cleric period.

Like I said i am not saying that Druids don't need love. I just think you need a better arguement :>)
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Jan 16, 2003 10:06 pm

Lili's enough argument alone to not upgrade druids at all.

Sorry Lili.
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Postby Celor » Thu Jan 16, 2003 10:12 pm

not really.. i can go to meilich and solo the beholder there just because there are nature rooms there.. but i cant go onto the airship and solo the captain.. or any of the mages.. yet i see shamans.. chanters.. illusionists.. doing it all the time.. dont get me wrong.. i can pwt and run in and hit the mob with one or two spells and flee and go get another tree in some nature room somewhere and do it again and again until its dead.. but thats more twinking than soloing.. and i'm not talking about just soloing.. i'm talking about making a need for druids to be in a group.. as of now there is absolutely no use for a druid in a group.. any mage can gwell.. sunray is great if you have a room of aggro mobs.. but other than that.. thats it.. rangers bark.. shamans gheal.. flame blade is pretty much the only offense you can use that will do any damage cuz you wont be in nature.. (except doom, but kinda sucks having to wait to get doom to do any sort of damage).. treants suck... for real.. besides that.. the spell cirlces need revamping.. 6th circle has how many useful spells.. so i have to give up heals to suffocate.. or to vit.. or vice versa.. yet many other circles have only a couple spells.. i dunno.. playing a druid for almost a year now has shown me that except for convienience using moonwell.. and sunray when it didnt aggro other mobs.. there is no real need for them.. except of course in nature when they can be somewhat handy.. gimme some more feedback.. i wanna hear both sides of the argument.. maybe someone has better ideas as to how to balance this class..
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Postby Celor » Thu Jan 16, 2003 10:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
<B>Lili's enough argument alone to not upgrade druids at all.

Sorry Lili.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

rofl.. lili rocks.. i hear that.. but there is one lili and i have no clue how she does it Image.. doesnt mean that druids dont need some revamping.. i dunno.. its like using mercs in groups.. what was the point? sure they have a couple of things they can do that others cant.. but they're not necessary.. i guess thats what i'm trying to say.. there is nothing that it is necessary to use a druid for that cant be done by other classes.. oh btw.. in addition to needing outdoor sneak... they should be able to track outdoors as well.. or in nature.. not just outdoors..

and the last thing i wanted to bring up was suffocate.. can someone tell me why suffocate doesnt work well indoors? i'm not saying it should.. i'm just saying i dont see why it doesnt.. anyone have any idea?
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Postby Chandigar2 » Fri Jan 17, 2003 1:45 am

Well sheesh! If I knew grouping with your druid on the airship was going to cause all the pro-druid bumpingness, I'd never have done it! Thats it! No grouping, 2 year!

Heh heh seriously tho... shades suck for tanking. Hard core. The only reason they survive is because they're displaced to start with. Displacing a treant would make a better tank than the shade. (which we should have done had I thought of it)

And not all mages can gwell Image at least not well. Even the illusionist gwell takes like 3x longer than moonwell plus 4 spells, 2 of which have massive lag.

Just like any quasi-multiclass, you have a variety of skills but possibly not a lot that really shines until you get your class defining spells. Your nukes are pretty good, better than non-voker mages, especially outdoors, plus healing, plus bark (hey, -40ish ac is nothing to laugh at), plus prots/wb/other utility spells.. and at 46 moonwell and doom.

Tank, enchanter, cleric are the core classes. The rest of us just make the exp/zone/etc go easier.

Compared to the way druids were before, they're much much better. I don't really think they need much of an upgrade at all. You're supposed to be fairly uber outdoors (and your spell damage is pretty awesome there) but weak indoors. Its a trade off.

Once you're in the painful 40-46 range, you gotta be a little proactive in getting groups. Hell, look at Mori, he kills more people each day than cigarettes, shark attacks and driving-without-seatbelts combined, and yet people STILL follow him. Image

Oh.. and the reason suffocate doesn't work indoors is because there's no air indoors. Duh.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Jan 17, 2003 4:45 am

just flame blade stuff to death

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Postby Celor » Fri Jan 17, 2003 3:31 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Chandigar2:
<B>Well sheesh! If I knew grouping with your druid on the airship was going to cause all the pro-druid bumpingness, I'd never have done it! Thats it! No grouping, 2 year!

Heh heh seriously tho... shades suck for tanking. Hard core. The only reason they survive is because they're displaced to start with. Displacing a treant would make a better tank than the shade. (which we should have done had I thought of it)

And not all mages can gwell Image at least not well. Even the illusionist gwell takes like 3x longer than moonwell plus 4 spells, 2 of which have massive lag.

Just like any quasi-multiclass, you have a variety of skills but possibly not a lot that really shines until you get your class defining spells. Your nukes are pretty good, better than non-voker mages, especially outdoors, plus healing, plus bark (hey, -40ish ac is nothing to laugh at), plus prots/wb/other utility spells.. and at 46 moonwell and doom.

Tank, enchanter, cleric are the core classes. The rest of us just make the exp/zone/etc go easier.

Compared to the way druids were before, they're much much better. I don't really think they need much of an upgrade at all. You're supposed to be fairly uber outdoors (and your spell damage is pretty awesome there) but weak indoors. Its a trade off.

Once you're in the painful 40-46 range, you gotta be a little proactive in getting groups. Hell, look at Mori, he kills more people each day than cigarettes, shark attacks and driving-without-seatbelts combined, and yet people STILL follow him. Image

Oh.. and the reason suffocate doesn't work indoors is because there's no air indoors. Duh. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

rofl chan you rock.. i hear what your saying.. but i feel that druids should have something that makes them necessary.. nukes are ok outdoors.. but most of the zones are not nature.. so that sucks.. as for displacing the tree.. lemme tell you.. if that displace wears off.. or if that tree gets critted.. which happens all the time.. he's dead.. no matter what his hps.. the shade can have 50 hps and last longer... but its arguable.. i hear ya.. as for gwelling.. my point in that was that you dont have to have a druid to well.. sure its more convienient.. but its not necessary.. I JUST WANT TO BE NEEDED!! Image i dunno i feel that in a zone i'm not really much use.. maybe that will change.. oh well Image and dalar Image i would love to flame blade things to death Image but it really doesnt do all that much damage.. though its not bad.. and its not a nature based spell which rocks.. but seeds blow it away.. know what though.. i dont think doom is nature based.. is it?
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Postby Sarell » Fri Jan 17, 2003 3:47 pm

I like druids now. Having different spells in different situations and deciding what to use in sixth circle is far more interesting than playing one of the core classes. We can do lots of things solo, not as many as some classes but more than others. We are very stylish aswell. Ever since getting entangle made worth memming I am very happy with druids. Mr treant would like to tell you if he could speak or type that he is very happy aswell, especially when he gets a globe. I miss not having remove poison, otherwise I think the druid class is fabulous yet not so fabulous that you don't have to be proactive and creative to be a top notch druid! hi5!

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Postby Ambar » Fri Jan 17, 2003 3:49 pm

forgive me here, i was a soj/toril druid im not a soj3 druid (ok ok so Shalia is lvl 21 or so .. sue me, old habits die hard)

but .. the spells still hit in non nature rooms, dont they? They just aren't as effective ... (and remember i only have like third circle spells, i have no real experience or basis for discussion)

shil still smacks the mobs upside the head, and i have used stuff like summon insects in non nature rooms and still paralyzed stuff temporarily (enough to run my happy ass outta the bad situation)

i'm not knocking the idea, just trying to get clarification since im EVIL now ....

thanks for the insight ...

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Postby Celor » Fri Jan 17, 2003 4:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ambar:
<B>forgive me here, i was a soj/toril druid im not a soj3 druid (ok ok so Shalia is lvl 21 or so .. sue me, old habits die hard)

but .. the spells still hit in non nature rooms, dont they? They just aren't as effective ... (and remember i only have like third circle spells, i have no real experience or basis for discussion)

shil still smacks the mobs upside the head, and i have used stuff like summon insects in non nature rooms and still paralyzed stuff temporarily (enough to run my happy ass outta the bad situation)

i'm not knocking the idea, just trying to get clarification since im EVIL now ....

thanks for the insight ...

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

all spells still work in any room.. just if your not in nature.. then nature based spells do reduced damage.. and from what i've seen its a very significant difference.. although regardeless of wether or not your in nature.. or if the mob is globed.. dust devil still knocks weapons out of their hands.. and suff still silences them.. and sunray still blinds them.. etc etc..
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Postby moritheil » Fri Jan 17, 2003 4:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Chandigar2:
<B>Once you're in the painful 40-46 range, you gotta be a little proactive in getting groups. Hell, look at Mori, he kills more people each day than cigarettes, shark attacks and driving-without-seatbelts combined, and yet people STILL follow him. Image

Oh.. and the reason suffocate doesn't work indoors is because there's no air indoors. Duh. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh heh. I've soloed quite a bit, and never gotten doom. Lil is lil, she is above and beyond the rest of us, and balancing druids by looking at her would be like saying clerics need nerfs because Tagad once soloed a dragon.

That being said... Celor, dust devil does NOT work on major globed targets. Believe me, it caused me much heartache when I could no longer disarm Kostie.

The history of druids this wipe is nerf after nerf after nerf. Sunray got nerfed. Dust devil got nerfed. PWT got nerfed (I can now cast about two moonwells before I have to PWT again). Now Sunray got nerfed again. Any time you have a history of nerfs with no concessions, people are bound to get irritated.

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Postby Celor » Fri Jan 17, 2003 4:58 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B> That being said... Celor, dust devil does NOT work on major globed targets. Believe me, it caused me much heartache when I could no longer disarm Kostie.

The history of druids this wipe is nerf after nerf after nerf. Sunray got nerfed. Dust devil got nerfed. PWT got nerfed (I can now cast about two moonwells before I have to PWT again). Now Sunray got nerfed again. Any time you have a history of nerfs with no concessions, people are bound to get irritated.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


ahh to be honest with you i never tried.. just figured since the rest of the spells worked.. that did too.. oh well..

but at least you agree with me.. i mean basic stuff that we should have.. outdoor sneak.. outdoor track.. stuff like that.. and some spells that dont make sense.. like i mentioned in the other post.. suffocate is reduced indoors? boggle.. the air is still in doors. should work pretty well

besides that.. several spells dont work at all indoors.. which really sucks.. i mean obviously it wouldnt make sense if they did.. but if i can find acorns sitting around indoors and fire seed with them.. why cant i find a tree branch and create a treant? or pwt? or make a berry.. jeez a ranger can forage indoors and find berries and crap.. that makes sense?

man i can bitch up a storm huh
later
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Postby amolol » Fri Jan 17, 2003 4:59 pm

about that ranger barking thing...im shure more druids get groups than rangers so i dont see what yer complaining about...every zone ive done has a druid in it....and iam rarely asked to bark any one unless the druid runs out of barks...(not likely) a druid is often used for there healing properties as well as there offence because they are better than clerics at offence but round same healing...so i still dont see what you complaining about...that put aside i do think the treants could use an upgrade they suck...

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Postby Celor » Fri Jan 17, 2003 5:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by amolol:
<B>about that ranger barking thing...im shure more druids get groups than rangers so i dont see what yer complaining about...every zone ive done has a druid in it....and iam rarely asked to bark any one unless the druid runs out of barks...(not likely) a druid is often used for there healing properties as well as there offence because they are better than clerics at offence but round same healing...so i still dont see what you complaining about...that put aside i do think the treants could use an upgrade they suck...

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no.. what i said about barks is that.. we are not the only class that can bark.. rangers can too... so if you wanted bark in a group.. you really would just need to get a ranger.. doesnt HAVE to be a druid.. or even a moonblade.. or potion... i mean chanters get blur/ds.. illu get disp/mislead/they can change into little gnomes and the such Image.. the idea being they are the only class that can do that.. and there is no replacement for that.. as for healing? *boggle* on same level as cleric? a cleric casting a 400 hps full heal in 1/4 of the time it takes me to cast the same healing is required for most major zones. if not all.. tanks would die pretty quick if we had to heal.. and besides that.. i can mem 6 heals.. so 600 hps.. a cleric mem 6 full heals.. 1800-2400 hps
not on the same level
as for the treants i hear ya there Image though they are great rescuers.. they rescue you and live just about long enough for you to get up and word Image
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Jan 17, 2003 5:21 pm

I think the ranger class just draws some truly unlikeable people to it. Druids, however, are generally likeable, and one or two of them are positively dreamy.

Except for Sylvos, of course. Oh, and Belleshelle and Calinth... and Weylarii, and Treladian, and ...

Oh heck, okay, the only truly unlikeable one is Kasula. Kasula, you've gone and spoiled the entire ranger class, you are fired!
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Postby amolol » Fri Jan 17, 2003 5:26 pm

so your saying that only druids should have bark!?!?!? so that means only clerics should get armor.....i see what your saying..you want to be more useful so that people depend more on you and the druid become more like the enchanter class that every one loves but noone has the balls to play cause its way hard...i get it....i do agree that the druids could use a small overhaul and i definatly agree there should be more nature zones but i also think that there are alot of other classes that need the overhaul b4 you...bards bchanters...rouges could use a little tinkering with rangers/dire raiders and so oni see your valid point and im not trying to be an ass though it may seem like it but besides the treants and lack of nature zones (witch would benefit every one) druids realy dont need that much

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Postby Celor » Fri Jan 17, 2003 5:41 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by amolol:
<B>so your saying that only druids should have bark!?!?!? so that means only clerics should get armor.....i see what your saying..you want to be more useful so that people depend more on you and the druid become more like the enchanter class that every one loves but noone has the balls to play cause its way hard...i get it....i do agree that the druids could use a small overhaul and i definatly agree there should be more nature zones but i also think that there are alot of other classes that need the overhaul b4 you...bards bchanters...rouges could use a little tinkering with rangers/dire raiders and so oni see your valid point and im not trying to be an ass though it may seem like it but besides the treants and lack of nature zones (witch would benefit every one) druids realy dont need that much

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no i'm not saying only druids should have bark.. i'm saying druids should be given something that no one else has.. rofl.. all those classes you mentioned need overhauls? bards just had a major overhaul recently.. my god.. they cast.. they sing powerful spells.. they fight pretty much as well as a rogue.. including having most of his skills.. boggle what else could you ask for.. rogues? a rogue can get through an entire zone undetected.. a rogue can get into places no one else can.. can hide without being detected.. can kill with one shot.. any mob.. does incredible damage for melee.. can backstab.. circle.. trip.. poison.. they too had a major overhaul since the last sojourn.. rangers i've never played.. i dont know what they're strengths and weaknesses are.. although i do think they're useful.. they can shoot a bow.. which is nifty.. track.. do nice amount of damage.. bark.. heal.. pwt.. and several other nice spells.. maybe they need an overhaul.. dunno.. but they are a major improvement since the last soj as well.. druids are not.. druids the last time i played them didnt have nature dependent spells.. NOT that i dont agree with that restriction. of course.. we're druids.. but some more useful spells indoors would be nice.. maybe an innate ability of some kind too.. shrug.. i feel druids are getting nerfed and nerfed with no compensation
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Jan 17, 2003 5:45 pm

Let me just say that rogues can not kill ANY mob with one shot, just clarifying that point.
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Postby old depok » Fri Jan 17, 2003 5:48 pm

Most classes do not have a unique spell that makes them a requirement in zones.

Shaman - gheal is our claim to fame but clerics and druids can heal. Not a requirement unless your doing dragons (a-shield)

Ranger - Archery is their main claim to fame. Not needed in any zone I can think of.

Rogue - Sneak and Hide. Um not a requirement in most zones (though it helps)and not unique to rogues.

Paladin - Mounted combat. I'll take the warrior please!

Necro - Um, Vamp curse? Not a requirement.

Elementalist - Embody - Nice to have not required in any zone.

Illusionist - Displace - not a requirement though it is unique.

Druid - Moonwell - not a requirement but welcome in all groups.

Invoker - damage spells. Not unique.

Bard - Not even touching this one (sorry guys)

Who am I missing?

Oh,
Cleric, Warrior, Enchanter. These are the only classes that we wait for or that are required to do zones.

The idea that Druids need something to make them a must have in a zone or unique (besides well) can be applied to every class except for these three.

The other classes are all a combination of one unique skill that other classes have in some form or another and a lot of utility. Some classes that utility comes as offense (shaman, Invoker, Rogue, Ranger, Druid, Pali). Some classes that comes in general purpose spells and skills(illusionist, Shaman, Druid, elementalist, Bard, Ranger, Pali) still others it is the healing arts that are their compliment (shaman, Bard, Druid).

For these classes it is rare that they excel at any one thing over and above the others (invokers are a unique exception).

You will notice that Druids are in all of those groups. They don't have a single area where they are the best at something. But they have a lot of areas in which they are good at something. Tends to be the way with us utility people.

Personally, I enjoy being the jack of all trades master of not so many. Makes things a lot more interesting than being the Tank that sits there and eats it.
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Postby amolol » Fri Jan 17, 2003 5:50 pm

when was the last time you ever saw a ranger solo a zone?....it just doesnt happen ive never seen a rouge do it but i have heard of one goin in doing his buisness and getting out bards yea they get spells and songs and rogue skills but they are not widley used...there should be somthing to make them more apealing..and once again i have never seen a bard solo a zone...i have on the other hand seen many druids solo sones alot of them non nature and im not just talking bout lil here(though she does rock some major shit) *wink* druids could use with somthink more powerfull than a bark though say somthing like bark skin but acts more like a stone or somthing also could make a spell where in nature druids can call up a swirling whirl wind of leaves that make it harder to see somthing (nature blur) im not bashing druids but i am saying there not half bad...like i said more nature zones would solve a lot of problems *poke shev* and just to clarify archery dont do shit while soloing....

just to add somthing rogues can throw stuffs so that makes the ranger archery not unique also to agree with ashiwi raogues cannot kill anything with one shot period...ive cred many rogues that missed a bs and needed help getting stuff back all im saying really is add more nature zones...that would solve alot of the druid problems and it would add a challenge to those vetran players who have never seen them b4.

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[This message has been edited by amolol (edited 01-17-2003).]
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Postby Ambar » Fri Jan 17, 2003 6:31 pm

u goodies just want nature zones so we evils cant see more during the day (ok how bout more dark zones :P(joke)

EVERY class has its drawbacks , no class is perfect but we all need one another ... THIS is why grouping is essential to sojourn3 ...

We can all spit and holler and cry upgrade but WHY? when it is the GROUP dynamics that count ...

(btw still cracks me up to see baby rangers casting offense then bitching when you wont stop to *mem* :P)

IMHO and from what I have heard, druids ROCK! your treants arent meant (i think) to be uber ... they are friggin TREES! and they took the place of baby mentals that druids USED to get :P I'm also kinda curious to see druids in action in zones ... *halo*

Every few months we hear the cry for nature zones .. why not write them?? A few of you get together and write one up!

OK I'm done now (just a side note im pissy i gotta work today so excuse anything that sounds *ranty*)

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Postby Treladian » Fri Jan 17, 2003 7:30 pm

Druids in and of themselves are not required for zoning. Moonwell is convenient for getting a group together at the beginning of the zone and fetching people that die, but nothing that fold, gate, and relo can't replicate with a little more time. All their nukes except for doom and flame blade basically tickle mobs indoor and doom doesn't work on wraiths. But they are extremely useful for a spell that isn't unique to them: Vit. You may not NEED a druid in the group, but you always need vitters and only 3 classes are capable of doing it. Non-cleric vitters are always useful since it frees up clerics to use baby heals that are more effective than heals from a shaman or druid.

You only need to vit at the beginning of a fight though, so something more useful to do against wraithforms that have already been blinded besides flame blade might be in order. It would still mainly serve as something to keep them busy and paying attention than anything else in all liklihood though, they're still really there for vits and sunrays.

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Postby Tasan » Fri Jan 17, 2003 8:02 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
<B>I think the ranger class just draws some truly unlikeable people to it. Druids, however, are generally likeable, and one or two of them are positively dreamy.

Except for Sylvos, of course. Oh, and Belleshelle and Calinth... and Weylarii, and Treladian, and ...

Oh heck, okay, the only truly unlikeable one is Kasula. Kasula, you've gone and spoiled the entire ranger class, you are fired!</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So not mentioned... again... *tear*

Druid barkskin > ranger fyi.

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Postby Celor » Fri Jan 17, 2003 8:04 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Treladian:
<B>Druids in and of themselves are not required for zoning. Moonwell is convenient for getting a group together at the beginning of the zone and fetching people that die, but nothing that fold, gate, and relo can't replicate with a little more time. All their nukes except for doom and flame blade basically tickle mobs indoor and doom doesn't work on wraiths. But they are extremely useful for a spell that isn't unique to them: Vit. You may not NEED a druid in the group, but you always need vitters and only 3 classes are capable of doing it. Non-cleric vitters are always useful since it frees up clerics to use baby heals that are more effective than heals from a shaman or druid.

You only need to vit at the beginning of a fight though, so something more useful to do against wraithforms that have already been blinded besides flame blade might be in order. It would still mainly serve as something to keep them busy and paying attention than anything else in all liklihood though, they're still really there for vits and sunrays.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There ya go.. thats what i'm talkin about.. they're not necessary.. okok i see what depok what talking about.. most classes except 3 arent actually absolutely required.. but there is nothing that makes us stand out.. even though they're not required.. vokers do crazy damage.. illu are unique with their displace.. fold.. mislead.. and massmorph i think is a great spell.. i can go on and on for each class.. but the druid class seems just the most blah.. i dunno.. needs spicing up..

as for sunrays.. since the change its not really as useful.. of course many of the zones can be all aggro zones where it doesnt matter if it aggros them.. but zones that are not. forget it.. you cant use it..

as for soloing.. rangers cant solo a zone.. neither can rogues.. or warriors.. i get that.. and i apologize if i upset someone saying that rogues can kill any mob with one hit.. ok they can assassinate many many mobs.. if it hits of course.. but the possibility is there.. but they're great in groups.. who can sneak better than a rogue? or do damage as well as rogues or rangers? embody is very useful.. who wants to give all those things up? displace.. gheal (hard to replace that.. not just against dragons.. but any !bash casting mob(s).. i've had many situations where its saved my life).. all of these classes have things which make them very useful during zoning.. not druids.. so vit? like you said vitting is before a fight... not very useful.. bark? ranger.. flame blade? come on.. some decent damage outdoors.. but where are the zones? sunray? thats a good one if all aggro zone.. other than that? what pwt? great for saving your ass.. but not for group.. entangle? can be handy.. so can bash usually.. i do like the fact that trees can bash huge mobs.. thats nice.. but for such a huge pet.. sure cant take a hit Image.. dunno.. anyways.. i'm rambling.. later Image
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Postby Celor » Fri Jan 17, 2003 8:05 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tasan:
<B>Druid barkskin > ranger fyi.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sure it is.. but really.. how important is a 10 ac difference with level 55+mobs?
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Postby thanuk » Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:14 pm

Heh, i really cant comment on most of the things discussed here. My one question is the general complaint about sunray..Why is it useless now? Sure it aggros mobs, but so does blind. Its just area blind. Wait till the tank engages, and then cast it? I don't see what the problem is. I also think druids are fine but i dont play one so that doesn't really mean a thing Image But whats the problem with sunray as an aggro spell?

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Postby old depok » Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:22 pm

Moonwell makes Druids unique. Yes it can be replaced by gwell but so can gheal be replaced by taking more healers or heal staffs or heal potions.

PWT is a great spell for luring mobs in a zone. This can allow the druid to be the lurer if you are short a rogue.

I don't know. I see more and more druids getting into groups these days. Far more than what was the norm a few months ago.
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Postby Marforp » Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:25 pm

Hrmm, I think I see Celor's point...

To restate:
Rouges can sneak and have a possibility to assassinate that no other class can.

Illu can displace, fold, and mislead

Druid can't sunray unless zone is agro and vit is only useful before the fight.

Conclusion:
1) druids need some nifty area damage spell (hrmm seems like that would only be usefull if zone is agro)
2) druids need some buff spell to cast during battle
(hrmm seems like Dragonscales and displace last through most normal fights or might have to be recast once for all except 5% of the possible battles on the mud)
3) sunray should still blind all mobs and not agro them, because the way it is it can't be used in non-agro zones
(hrmmm why would this ever make sense? Maybe incendiary cloud shouldn't agro mobs to!)
4) Druids need something unique just to them
(hrmm like an area blind spell that could would be cast during battle after the druid put up their vits?)
5) Treants for druids should be able to tank
(hrmm how much bigger could treants be before they are equal to elementalist tanks?)

Yes, maybe something could be done to tweak the class a little. The class is damn close to being balanced and the real problems seems to be that you can't do massive damage inside. Actually reading your posts even if you were able to do full damage inside you would complain because invokers would still do it better then you just like clerics heal better then you. Druids are a utility class. One major point to realize...the gods CAN'T give the druids something unique that they couldn't give illithids. Maybe druids could get some outdoor casting spell that would reduce the melee damage to the tank by 10%, but if druids had that illithids would probably receive something similar and illithids can use their skills anywhere. Would that be fair?

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Postby Alomlim » Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:28 pm

Druids are among the most active of all zone classes, and a great class for an individual mudder to really shine!

As wellers, they can *really* cut down on the wasted organizing / departing time, which makes everyone happy.

They have all of the duties of the cleric-type classes, which are essential in-zone.

They have significent spellup duties in bark/vit. It's actually just the right amount of spellup duty... a few spells, very tasty.

They have to silence mobs. They have to heal mostly-dead group members, which requires sharp eyes and quick reflexes(clerics mainly have their eyes on the tanks). They have to summon those that need it.

They have a sweet pet, which adds a delicious complexity to play for the bored mudder.

They're decent soloing (a huge class perk), or in small groups... and small-grouping little zones is really fun! By virtue of moonwell, druids make natural leaders too.

Plus, they get some really cool unique spells (entangle, pwt, sunray) and craploads of areas, which vary in damage, sure, but can really put the spank down when there's lots of mobs or in nature areas.

Druids are a complete, full-bodied class! There's so much to do right as a druid that there's an opportunity to differentiate yourself. People may not be polling the who lists for an ungrouped druid, *any* ungrouped druid... that's enchanters. But they give *you* a chance to really whip ass... people might be polling for your name instead of your class.

nod me.

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Postby amolol » Fri Jan 17, 2003 10:03 pm

you only get 10 ac for you bark?...every one else ive met gets 20 or better...i myself can get 23 on a good one...and im just a silly pathetic ranger...your adruid they get bark b4 me and can use it more....and you only get 10 ac...i think your char is broken dude...or at least your spell

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Postby Chandigar2 » Fri Jan 17, 2003 10:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Celor:
illu get disp/mislead/they can change into little gnomes and the such Image.. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey! Thats not all its cracked up to be... I always do a double take when I change into a gnome then look inside my pants...
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Postby Celor » Sat Jan 18, 2003 6:44 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Marforp:
<B>Conclusion:
1) druids need some nifty area damage spell (hrmm seems like that would only be usefull if zone is agro)
2) druids need some buff spell to cast during battle
(hrmm seems like Dragonscales and displace last through most normal fights or might have to be recast once for all except 5% of the possible battles on the mud)
3) sunray should still blind all mobs and not agro them, because the way it is it can't be used in non-agro zones
(hrmmm why would this ever make sense? Maybe incendiary cloud shouldn't agro mobs to!)
4) Druids need something unique just to them
(hrmm like an area blind spell that could would be cast during battle after the druid put up their vits?)
5) Treants for druids should be able to tank
(hrmm how much bigger could treants be before they are equal to elementalist tanks?)
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

people really need to read previous posts.. first off.. i have stated that it makes perfect sense that sunray aggro's other mobs.. it should.. treants = fire mentals lets say in tanking? not even close.. not on the best day.. area damage.. pretty good damage if you use doom......
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Postby Celor » Sat Jan 18, 2003 6:46 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by amolol:
<B>you only get 10 ac for you bark?...every one else ive met gets 20 or better...i myself can get 23 on a good one...and im just a silly pathetic ranger...your adruid they get bark b4 me and can use it more....and you only get 10 ac...i think your char is broken dude...or at least your spell

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


no.. i meant that the 10 or even 30 ac difference between a ranger bark and druid bark.. really doesnt make a difference with high level mobs... or so i'm told repeatedly
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Postby Celor » Sat Jan 18, 2003 6:55 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Alomlim:
<B>As wellers, they can *really* cut down on the wasted organizing / departing time, which makes everyone happy.

They have all of the duties of the cleric-type classes, which are essential in-zone.

They have significent spellup duties in bark/vit. It's actually just the right amount of spellup duty... a few spells, very tasty.

They have to silence mobs. They have to heal mostly-dead group members, which requires sharp eyes and quick reflexes(clerics mainly have their eyes on the tanks). They have to summon those that need it.

They have a sweet pet, which adds a delicious complexity to play for the bored mudder.

They're decent soloing (a huge class perk), or in small groups... and small-grouping little zones is really fun! By virtue of moonwell, druids make natural leaders too.

Plus, they get some really cool unique spells (entangle, pwt, sunray) and craploads of areas, which vary in damage, sure, but can really put the spank down when there's lots of mobs or in nature areas.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

heh well is great.. its very handy.. but not necessary.. in fact i've had several illusionists tell me there is no need for it anymore.. illusionists can gwell on any plane.. not just prime.

silencing mobs is nice.. so can several other classes.. but if you want to heal near dead people.. you can mem suffocates

sweet pets? trees suck hard.. for the amt of hps they have.. they last like 1 or 2 rounds.. as i said it is nice that they can bash really big mobs.. but its very rare you run into them.. cuz even some giants lets say.. are still too small for the trees

entangle and pwt? dont even think about it if your not in nature.. it sucks hard to have to run to a nature room.. which may not be very close at all.. to cast pwt.. only to get back to the mob.. and have it start fading and run out and have to do it again

as i've said.. no group needs a druid.. you can get along without one without losing a damn thing.. get a shaman to replace it.. gheal.. and sil and blind.. more perks if you ask me.. ashield is nice..
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Postby Celor » Sat Jan 18, 2003 6:58 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Marforp:
<B>One major point to realize...the gods CAN'T give the druids something unique that they couldn't give illithids. Maybe druids could get some outdoor casting spell that would reduce the melee damage to the tank by 10%, but if druids had that illithids would probably receive something similar and illithids can use their skills anywhere. Would that be fair?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

heh why? illithids can instantly cast spells.. cant be silenced.. those are HUGE right off the bat
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Postby Chandigar2 » Sun Jan 19, 2003 2:48 am

Yea, but they have casting lag, which is worse than casting time. You can at least abort and flee, but a squid that has a couple mobs switch after casting lag is dead.

And yea, can't be silenced, but like a str of 50 after racial mods, 2 hps or so per level... huge trade off.

Yes, this is data after struggling to play a squid for about 18 lvls :P Dunno how you guys do it, but correct me if the above is incorrect.
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Postby Treladian » Tue Jan 21, 2003 2:47 am

Celor: "no.. i meant that the 10 or even 30 ac difference between a ranger bark and druid bark.. really doesnt make a difference with high level mobs... or so i'm told repeatedly"

It doesn't make a difference in regards to getting hit, but it does make a difference in lessening damage if the recipients AC is high enough before the spell.

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Postby Dalar » Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:12 pm

WTB:
<img src =
http://www.siatlanta.com/forumpics/cliffnotes.jpg

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Postby Sarell » Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:20 pm

The 'this class is needed this one isn't' debate is silly imho. Druids heal and do damage, you need to heal and do damage in zones. Other classes do differing ammounts of this stuff and also sometimes prevent damage to you. You can do zones with a kazillion different configurations now which is rather nice. I think shaman atm is the most needed class on good side of the fence.

Many statements in this thread are just plain wrong. Druids don't heal anything like clerics or shamans, their bark is a darn good spell whether or not rangers have it. Treants are not the best pet but they still kick ass to have about. The complete lack of nature in some zones does hurt druids, it is good to have a room you can get to in order to use some of your spells. PWT doesn't make a druid a good lurer *boggle*.

I like the druid class very much. It has far more facets than most other classes, you actually get to choose what you will do unlike a voker/chanter/warrior/rogue.

Sunray.. Atm my big gripe with this spell is that prism is a better spell for blinding mobs and it does tonnes of other things at the same time. Sunray was cool when it only agroed the target as we could still use our blinding spell a bit when other mobs were around. Perhaps a better fix to the creative use of spells that was taking place would be rather than agro everything would be to make it so that you just cant cast it on yourself.

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Postby amolol » Wed Jan 22, 2003 8:54 pm

the major side of this discussion is druids dont need any upgrades...they are one of the best soloing classes on the mud...proven by lili.....im not saying every drud should be that godlike im just saying that if you learn to play the class well (not dissing on any one here just stating a fact)you will see that druids are very well balanced and dont realy need an upgrade...there are lots of other things that need to happen b4 druids will get upgraded...

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Postby moritheil » Thu Jan 30, 2003 6:08 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B>But whats the problem with sunray as an aggro spell?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's always been agro. It just agroes nigh everything in the room now, as opposed to just the mob you target and 1d4 other mobs, which is basically what it used to do. It's not wholly useless, but it's certainly not as useful.

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Postby moritheil » Thu Jan 30, 2003 6:14 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by amolol:
the major side of this discussion is druids dont need any upgrades...they are one of the best soloing classes on the mud...proven by lili.....</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, as I said above, druids have been repeatedly nerfed. I'm not arguing for a significant upgrade, although Celor might be. I'm pointing out that BECAUSE we were nerfed so much, quite a few druids are unhappy. And I'd still like to be less feeble indoors when in a natural setting, but that's more of a fine-tuning issue.

Everyone brings up Archdruid Lil as a prime example of druid soloing. Is one Lil going to imbalance the mud? Further; note that everyone ONLY brings up Lil. This is not the case for illusionists or elementalists, or enchanters soloing. Lil kicks ass. But that is not something that is as easily replicated for the majority of other druids I have seen, as it is for the majority of mages to fall within the same performance range.

I can name numerous illusionists, etc. who pull off amazing feats.

Don't get me wrong - druids are VERY playable this boot. I just don't want you to all be under the mistaken impression that there are a dozen Lilithelles wandering about soloing dragons Image

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Postby thanuk » Thu Jan 30, 2003 6:23 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B> It's always been agro. It just agroes nigh everything in the room now, as opposed to just the mob you target and 1d4 other mobs, which is basically what it used to do. It's not wholly useless, but it's certainly not as useful.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok well a spell that calls upon the power of the sun to blind all the vile creatures before you should probably aggro everything that you attempt to blind, i.e. everything in the room, right? Image

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Postby amolol » Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:22 pm

at no point did i say thatthere were 12 or so lillis running around killing dragons all day infact if you go up a bit i did state that not every one is as good as lil but i do think the vclass is well ballanced...nor did i say that she is the only decent soloer out there its just that id like to stay on topic were not discussing illusionists or eles or vokers or chanters...were discussing druids...i do agree that some of the zones that arent nature should be and i do agree that the druids have been nrfed a few times and kinda got shafted a bit bvut im also saying that right noww ther pretty balanced and there are other things that need to be finished and or fixed b4 they get an upgrade..like trap or that ever infamous missile shield or the drink container thing or the little bugs that just happen to pop up every now and then ect...

im just saying that druids can rock some major shit...moire so than alot of the other classes

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Postby moritheil » Fri Jan 31, 2003 1:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by amolol:
<B>im just saying that druids can rock some major shit...moire so than alot of the other classes
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

(edited for spam)

And I'm saying druids have been repeatedly downgraded with no amends. Which you don't contest. And that in many mage classes, the average player's solo power isn't that far off from the uber player's, but with druids, I see that happening a lot less.

Thanuk, my point isn't from a realism angle. Read my post more carefully, I don't argue against the realism. I simply state that we have had nerf after nerf after nerf.

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Postby moritheil » Fri Jan 31, 2003 1:46 pm

and PS: it does NOT attempt to blind ALL mobs in the room, only some. Read the help file. Now, however, it agros far more than it attempts to blind, even in an enormous room. That would be like me throwing a rock at some guy 500 paces to your left and having you attack me because of it - understandable if you were grouped with him, not so understandable otherwise.

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Postby thanuk » Fri Jan 31, 2003 2:50 pm

You are going to get 0 sympathy about your class being nerfed from a warrior buddy, sorry to tell you, but we need tweaking alot worse than u guys do.
Druids keep getting nerfed, but none of it is rediculous and none of it kills your class. Soloability is not a trait on which a classes power is based, and neither is the ability to blind mobs without aggroing them. Sucks that you get nerfed, but its not like they ruined your class.

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