Education and Misconceptions

[Daz]

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/05/sommers.htm


if you are interested in educational biases in the united states, underlying causes and methods, as well as a well documented but rather lengthy study of the male and female bias in our schools, this is a good read.


for most of you this will probably not be the page-turner it was for me, but hey, maybe one person will appreciate it.

[Daz]

a word of warning for those of you reading this, or who gave up reading this - the author has a strong bias against the work of a colleague, dr carol gilligan, but this writing is not a personal attack on her character. the purpose of this writing seems to be a warning against a repeat of the events that happened in 1982, when her faulty data accrual methods were used and publicized without verification and what the author feels caused long term damage to the character of many otherwise well adjusted females. the author seems to be hoping to damage the gilligans credibility so that in the future and proposed changes or reforms she induced will be analyzed before they are adopted, a practice that was not used in her 1982 which is now almost wholly discounted as false, and with little or no evidence to support her claims.

[Daz]

A boy today, through no fault of his own, finds himself implicated in the social crime of shortchanging girls. Yet the allegedly silenced and neglected girl sitting next to him is likely to be the superior student. She is probably more articulate, more mature, more engaged, and more well-balanced. The boy may be aware that she is more likely to go on to college. He may believe that teachers prefer to be around girls and pay more attention to them. At the same time, he is uncomfortably aware that he is considered to be a member of the favored and dominant gender.

[Todrael]

This article was very intriguing. One thing I thought to myself about halfway through.. there are a bunch of Feminists around, of all different calibres. Are there any Masculinists?

[Kifle]

Are there any Masculinists?

not really, most guys are just too scared the feminists will just castrate them. Think what would happen if 1000's of guys start protesting about stuff like women using the powers of vagina in the workplace...although it would be funny as hell, I don't see it really starting a revolution.

[Ambar]

I suppose you could call me a masculinist ... Women's rights have been long touted, and to an extent, I agree. I agree women are equal members of society, equal pay, equal rights, but that's where my beliefs end.

Certain jobs are just not for women. In the Navy they tend not to look at the person when they match then with a job. What business does a little tiny woman (or man for that matter) have loading bombs .. they are too friggin heavy. Hydraulics .. some of the actuators in Naval aircraft are way too heavy. You get a little 5'0" 100 pound woman in that job, and you are askking for trouble. Sure she can get help lifting, but ... come ON ..

Naval uniforms ... women have smaller badges that they were which is fine.. What about the little, thin man, or the *cough* large woman .. the smaller badges look just silly, and the men are swallowed by their larger ones..

ok there is my schpeel(oo spelling??) on that topic, let me go read the article ...

[Ambar]

feh invalid sessions suck ..... had a whole book typed out ..

feh downgrade feminism

upgrade humanism ...

[Mitharx]

Yeah, I've read some Gilligan. She had some interesting practices as a teacher including attempting to get one young male student expelled for comments in a paper that could only be considered offensive by twisting them to an extremely high degree. Luckily the educational review board laughed at the accusations. I'm all for feminism if handled properly. The same can be said of any of the new more concentrated studies (african-american studies for example), but they sometimes they have figure heads that are so completely biased that they tend to show the worst of that particular branch of studies. I won't list an examples as I fear being politically incorrect:P

Anyway, downgrade SOME feminisist,...mightily

[Daz]

you know, i read the comments on here and i want to laugh, just the degree of fear that people have of the feminists.

you know, im not a feminist or a masculinist - i believe that we ALL have our roles in life, and that our sex does dictate PARTIALLY what SOME of those roles will be, but beyond that - we are each empowered with the same abilities and capacities.

feminism was one of the WORST things that has ever happened to our society, and i hope someday that people will look at the social impact of feminism and say 'my god, this was nearly genocide'

very few positive changes came by means of the feminist movement that could not have come from different means, to the same ends, without causing significantly LESS damage to our culture in the process. i am no qualified expert, and i don't have sources to cite, note because they are not available, but because i am not going to put forth that effort for a casual discussion group.

the feminist movement destroyed our cultural lifestyle, it destroyed our children's home life, and now these maladjusted children are growing up and taking power in a world that they don't comprehend because they don't know shit about the reality outside their closed minds. i am NOT anti-feminine, i am just vehemently opposed to the methods they used to 'earn' their equalities over the years. these 'equalities' are such hypocritical farces that i shudder to think of what people will say about our generation a thousand years from now. much like we shudder to think that rape was a legal and sanctioned offense in our not that distant past, i believe some child will look at his teacher in disbelief and say 'why' and an exasperated teacher will give an excuse, rather than bewilder the child with the long, tedious story of why our culture so joyfully destroyed itself and had the audacity to act confused about it in the process.

this partisan treatment of male and female youths has divided our children and put up barriers that would not otherwise have been there. these girls feel inferior because we raised them and MADE them that way. no little girl comes out and says 'boys are better than me' unless we, as a society, have plugged that image into her brain and branded it there. when they talk to these children, they come up with the most absurd results. i will suppose that they dont even properly question the child, but rather lead the child to the answer that they want. instead of 'do you feel confident in yourself as an individual' the ask retarded shit like 'do you feel like you can compete with males at your level' which PUTS this stupid notion in the kids' head that there ARE even such separations - and there are, BUT we PUT them there. am i saying that too much? i dont care, my point on that thought is that we are the cause of our own problems, and no fruedian lesbian on a power trip should be allowed to dictate the course and direction of our childrens' emotional state without some serious questioning. the fact that a single disillusioned female is the a contributing force to the degradation of our educational institutions is sickening.

i just think that we, as people, need to CARE, and educate ourselves, and our kids, so that they arent as fucking braindead stupid as we are in the next generation. at the current rate of social evolution, in 2 generations i am fairly certain that we will be evolved to the point of mimicking a praying mantis. why bother even having two parents - it seems to me women would be happier if they could just legally kill the husband, collect a phat insurance claim, and then tell the children what a deadbeat their father is - which of course gives the male child the belief that men (his only paternal figure of course being a father that only his mother can educate him of) are worthless pigs, and the daughter will assume that this is true, also - so she will date, find a man who believes he is worthless because his mother told him so, and then the same husband will feel double betrayed because now his wife reassures what his mother told him - that his self worth is less than hers - it just keeps going and going, im not even going to go on

one of the big beefs in that article that i agree with wholeheartedly was the studies that show just how few american males are putting effort into their academic lives. how few of them are going into serious post secondary technology trades - these males are destroyed by their environment, castrated emotionally, and forced into a lifestyle that they did not wholly choose. then, when these kids, our bright and shining future, do not go to school because their self-worth does not allow it, these foreign countries are flocking to fill their numbers at record pace.


the schools get diligent students who soak up fat scholarship money that feeds the institution, the schools get students with higher scores, which increases their budget - then the kids go out, and leave the country for lucrative positions elsewhere. our newly castrated tech homeless people, having had little to guide them in life without a parental figure except for the strong world of technology, have now been cast out of the only foundation they knew, and can not handle the world around them - which is one of the reasons i feel we have this lethargic, tragicly passive unempleoyed sector that was once a strong constituant of the technology market, which is losing its foothold in america as fast as we can gain or recover it


but who cares

[Ensis]

you know, i read the comments on here and i want to laugh, just the degree of fear that people have of the feminists.

you know, im not a feminist or a masculinist - i believe that we ALL have our roles in life, and that our sex does dictate PARTIALLY what SOME of those roles will be, but beyond that - we are each empowered with the same abilities and capacities.

There are enough physical differences to show that we aren't each empowered with the same capabilities and capacities.

feminism was one of the WORST things that has ever happened to our society, and i hope someday that people will look at the social impact of feminism and say 'my god, this was nearly genocide'

Genocide is the systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group according to the dictionary. I don't recall feminists almost eliminating anything. They were trying to get things for themselves.

very few positive changes came by means of the feminist movement that could not have come from different means, to the same ends, without causing significantly LESS damage to our culture in the process. i am no qualified expert, and i don't have sources to cite, note because they are not available, but because i am not going to put forth that effort for a casual discussion group.

So you can say that very few positive changes came, that you didn't/wont research it, and that you aren't an expert. So whatever you post/have posted in this issue is meaningless.

the feminist movement destroyed our cultural lifestyle, it destroyed our children's home life, and now these maladjusted children are growing up and taking power in a world that they don't comprehend because they don't know shit about the reality outside their closed minds. i am NOT anti-feminine, i am just vehemently opposed to the methods they used to 'earn' their equalities over the years. these 'equalities' are such hypocritical farces that i shudder to think of what people will say about our generation a thousand years from now. much like we shudder to think that rape was a legal and sanctioned offense in our not that distant past, i believe some child will look at his teacher in disbelief and say 'why' and an exasperated teacher will give an excuse, rather than bewilder the child with the long, tedious story of why our culture so joyfully destroyed itself and had the audacity to act confused about it in the process.

What makes you think life was such a cakewalk then? If people were so well-adjusted when the women knew their roles and stayed at home, why was there a feminist movement in the first place? Why did the sexual revolution happen? What about every other major social occurance that happened before "OUR" time? What methods did they use to earn their equalities? Why don't you think it is justifiably "earned"? Can you honestly tell me what it was that the feminist movement did that was so catestrophic to our culture? How they did it? What it would be like if they didn't? what the other options they had to "earn" their equalities?

this partisan treatment of male and female youths has divided our children and put up barriers that would not otherwise have been there. these girls feel inferior because we raised them and MADE them that way. no little girl comes out and says 'boys are better than me' unless we, as a society, have plugged that image into her brain and branded it there. when they talk to these children, they come up with the most absurd results. i will suppose that they dont even properly question the child, but rather lead the child to the answer that they want. instead of 'do you feel confident in yourself as an individual' the ask retarded shit like 'do you feel like you can compete with males at your level' which PUTS this stupid notion in the kids' head that there ARE even such separations - and there are, BUT we PUT them there. am i saying that too much? i dont care, my point on that thought is that we are the cause of our own problems, and no fruedian lesbian on a power trip should be allowed to dictate the course and direction of our childrens' emotional state without some serious questioning. the fact that a single disillusioned female is the a contributing force to the degradation of our educational institutions is sickening.

So telling people they have different capacities, talents, and abilities is wrong? If you'd tell everyone that they are the individual and can do anything, what do you do when you tell the girl that is only going to make it to 5'2 and has an aversion to athletics that she could be a basketball player if she wanted to? What about telling the kid with the severe learning disorder that he could teach calculus? Some people can do things, some people can't. Some people have to work hard to do things, and some people have innate talents. Pretending that we are all the same and can do anything that one another can do is the same disillusion that you say is degrading our educational institutions.

i just think that we, as people, need to CARE, and educate ourselves, and our kids, so that they arent as fucking braindead stupid as we are in the next generation. at the current rate of social evolution, in 2 generations i am fairly certain that we will be evolved to the point of mimicking a praying mantis. why bother even having two parents - it seems to me women would be happier if they could just legally kill the husband, collect a phat insurance claim, and then tell the children what a deadbeat their father is - which of course gives the male child the belief that men (his only paternal figure of course being a father that only his mother can educate him of) are worthless pigs, and the daughter will assume that this is true, also - so she will date, find a man who believes he is worthless because his mother told him so, and then the same husband will feel double betrayed because now his wife reassures what his mother told him - that his self worth is less than hers - it just keeps going and going, im not even going to go on

So what you're saying is, your bias vs the feminist woman is better than the one they have against male chauvinists?

one of the big beefs in that article that i agree with wholeheartedly was the studies that show just how few american males are putting effort into their academic lives. how few of them are going into serious post secondary technology trades - these males are destroyed by their environment, castrated emotionally, and forced into a lifestyle that they did not wholly choose. then, when these kids, our bright and shining future, do not go to school because their self-worth does not allow it, these foreign countries are flocking to fill their numbers at record pace.

Those poor kids. I think people need to stop blaming their shortcomings on their environments. Guess what, there were people that didn't go to school that come from happy warm nurturing households. There are inner city kids that end up doctoral physics researchers. The problem is, everyone is looking for someone else to blame their problems on instead of taking some accountability. Sure, I grew up poor, but I'm not going to turn into a dirtbag just because I'm pissed off that some other kids had it better. My parents were divorced, I'm not going to blame every failed relationship on the fact that I came from a broken home.

How often do you hear someone say "man, that guy took me for $500, I just shouldn't have loaned him the money in the first place" versus "I didn't make my rent payment because this other guy owes me money". It's the same everywhere. Everyone externalizes when something that they had a hand in goes bad, and they internalize everything they achieve.

the schools get diligent students who soak up fat scholarship money that feeds the institution, the schools get students with higher scores, which increases their budget - then the kids go out, and leave the country for lucrative positions elsewhere. our newly castrated tech homeless people, having had little to guide them in life without a parental figure except for the strong world of technology, have now been cast out of the only foundation they knew, and can not handle the world around them - which is one of the reasons i feel we have this lethargic, tragicly passive unempleoyed sector that was once a strong constituant of the technology market, which is losing its foothold in america as fast as we can gain or recover it

It was strong because they had blinders on all the big corporate guys eyes the whole time. That technology was some unknown magic that nobody could figure out. If they were so necessary they'd still have a job. When your job ceases to exist, find another one. When you can't find one like it, find something similar. If you can't even find that? Time to find a new career path, looks like you gambled a couple hours/days/months/years of schooling and crapped out. Back to the drawing board. Again, it's someone elses fault you're unemployed, it couldn't possibly your fault that you decided on technology and the bottom fell out of it.

but who cares

Who does care? That's another important question. Is that why theres such a strong outcry from people about what they don't have? I don't have a job I like, watch me suffer. I don't have the house I want, watch me suffer. I don't make seven figures, watch me suffer. If people spent half the time they spent bitching looking at the rest of the world, and the people that are starving living in their roofless pits, they would probably have a sunnier outlook on things. But they don't care about that, they want what they think they deserve, which is dictated by their gauge of work to reward.

[Ensis]

I suppose you could call me a masculinist ... Women's rights have been long touted, and to an extent, I agree. I agree women are equal members of society, equal pay, equal rights, but that's where my beliefs end.

Certain jobs are just not for women. In the Navy they tend not to look at the person when they match then with a job. What business does a little tiny woman (or man for that matter) have loading bombs .. they are too friggin heavy. Hydraulics .. some of the actuators in Naval aircraft are way too heavy. You get a little 5'0" 100 pound woman in that job, and you are askking for trouble. Sure she can get help lifting, but ... come ON ..

Naval uniforms ... women have smaller badges that they were which is fine.. What about the little, thin man, or the *cough* large woman .. the smaller badges look just silly, and the men are swallowed by their larger ones..

ok there is my schpeel(oo spelling??) on that topic, let me go read the article ...

This is bigger in the army because we have combat arms jobs that women aren't allowed in period, and it's always a big debate. When Blackhawk Down came out I don't know how many people asked me why there weren't any women rangers.

When it comes down to that, there are plenty of reasons.
1: Chivalry, plenty of guys are raised to protect women, get them in a combat situation and that instinct is going to go into overdrive.
2: Typically, men are better built for combat. Bigger frames, hardier constitutions for carrying heavy equipment for prolonged periods of time.
3: Fraternization. Theres already enough problems with people sexing it up on base in inappropriate places, let alone a foxhole or a fighting position.
The list goes on.

Are there exceptions? Sure, I know plenty of badass Tina-Tuffnuts soldiers that could put me, and plenty of other ranger/special forces types to shame, but they are the minority.

To their credit, Feminists did deserve to be heard. You don't hear about masculinists because male needs have already been seen to. Males haven't been starved of rights for the better part of our existence as humans, barring the racial slaveries that have gone on. It's the same reason you don't have the "White" channel to counter BET or Univisoin. Why would there be a white channel? Most of the rest of them ARE the white channels. "White Power" was made an ugly term by several groups that used that as their slogan, as a means to end every other race that wasn't like them. It's an ugly stain that will last a long time.

I don't think dudes are under any threat of being oppressed by women anytime soon, unless they're into that kindof thing. Feminists on the other hand, have made some pretty serious headway, but there are still glass-ceilings to think about, and there are several positions yet to be breached by women because they are women.

Sorry Ambar that wasn't me going off on you :) just kinda got off on a rant.

[Ambar]

I didn't take it that way hun, seems like you agree with me to some extent .. I had this HUGE rant written against Daz last night, hit send, and invalid session again :P feh sick of that .. made some great comments too and didn't feel like typing it out again ...

[Daz]

great! rant on me! since i value your opinions like brocoli in the morning! this wasn't written for either of you. this was written for people who wanted to learn something interesting about a major problem in our education system, and i included my own anti-feminism movements.

ensis went through a lot of trouble to write something - but i didnt really read it, i skimmed some stuff.

I think people need to stop blaming their shortcomings on their environments

that was enough to convince me that he is unable to form an opinion worth respecting.

back to counter-strike, toodles!

[Yadir]

http://ocw.mit.edu

Free the information! Educate the masses!

"We hope that in sharing MIT’s course materials, and our experience thus far with MIT OCW, we will inspire other institutions to openly share their course materials, creating a worldwide web of knowledge that will benefit mankind." - Charles M. Vest, President of MIT

[goroz]

If people spent half the time they spent bitching looking at the rest of the world, and the people that are starving living in their roofless pits, they would probably have a sunnier outlook on things. But they don't care about that, they want what they think they deserve, which is dictated by their gauge of work to reward.

*cough* If thats not the pot calling the kettle black. Correct me if im wrong but the feminists wouldnt exist if that never happend. Nor would half the other people that think theres got to be a reason why they cant get ahead in life without using some trump card (race age gender religion)
yes it happened it still happens but cant get better when people keep it around like spoiled food. We're all human is what it comes down to, and for the foolish that cant accept that for what it is tough chit. I dont care if yer black white male female 20 60 jewish christian. The funny thing is segregation is about funny*and in the US its very funny* if you think about it people complain about being segregated against and then segregate themselves by making some group title for themselves which in turn keeps the fires burning its really quite pathetic if you think about it long and hard enough or with an open mind. but when you toss yourself into a catagory you in a way segregate yourself from others..(not trying to offend anyone by this statement at all because im far from racist but) If you live in China but you were born in America do you call yourself American-Chinese? Not that i've ever heard so why in the US do we feel the need to segregate ourselves into catagorys and then complain we are being segregated agaisnt?!?!) that same idea goes for just about anyone that tosses themselves into a group only to bitch about the same stupid chit and keep fires burning when they dont need to..but humans have some unexplainable need to complain. I got abit off track but what it boils down to is humans are humans if your petty enough to have to find a reason to segregate yourself in ANYWAY you prolly deserve it...And if you segregate people to make yourself feel supirior your worthless.[/url]

[Ensis]

great! rant on me! since i value your opinions like brocoli in the morning! this wasn't written for either of you. this was written for people who wanted to learn something interesting about a major problem in our education system, and i included my own anti-feminism movements.

It's funny that in another post you accused me of trying to know everything :)