For you experienced coders

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Daz
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For you experienced coders

Postby Daz » Fri Oct 24, 2003 10:21 pm

Ok, I am gonna make a mud for me and some RL friends to play, and here is my concept (the questions come after)

On 9-11, the world was ravaged by terrorist attacks on the United States. In our world, we all know how events played out . . . but, in another world, events as they 'could have been' shape the future. The attackers hit their targets, the United States, unprepared was decimated in many ways. The White House, destroyed by the attacks is no longer, the president and his cabinet were killed. The attackers, spurred on by their success, continued attacking strategic targets. The government, with no leadership, was helpless to stop the attacks. A militia population overran the military bases, and the distraught soldiers did not kill their own brethren to stop them.

The world is different, in this reality. Anarchy has set in on a global level, with the last superpower's destruction, a medieval hierarchy of national powers are forming, guerilla warfare and urban violence are the new battlefronts, and everyone is a potential victim.

The players will be given the opportunities to control the shape of the world, and what happens on it. We will not use magic or anything like that, the game will run entirely on modern and potential mechanics, guns, knives, and fistfights will be the weapons of the day, and I plan on taking care of that as such, with the closest to magic being drugs and steroids to enhance or alter your physique or mentality.

Anyway, given the above variables - what code base should i start on? I plan on investing several years into coding this the way i want, and i have a few programmers that are going to work with me, as well as builders.

I am partial to Diku, for obvious reasons, but it may not be the best suited for what i plan on doing.

what do you guys think? any suggestions? i want the most stable code base to begin with, so i can focus on modification before too much stabilization.

also, what is a good low cost mud hosting service that i can start with? When I get closer to doing anything with it then ill switch over, but this is mostly for me and some friends to play with and a bunch of guys i work with at comcast, so its not gonna be some public game - a peak of 40-50 players for bandwidth purposes will suit me.

thanks for any help guys
Shevarash OOC: 'Muma on Artificial Intelligence - Muma OOC: 'someday the quotes really will just become AI and then i'll talk to the AI and be like, hey you come from me, but it will get angry at me and revolt and try to kill me or something heheheh. like in the movies''
Sarvis
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Oct 24, 2003 10:51 pm

You may wanna post this on Mudconnector, they have forums for exactly this sort of thing.

You may want to look for a codebase that _already_ has modern weapons and combat built in. It seems like I remember hearing about one a while back, when I was still trolling their forums. I'd definately suggest CircleMUD over Diku if you really want to stick with a similar codebase to what we are using here.

However, last I checked KaVir was working on an Object Oriented C++ codebase... which if he did it halfway correctly should be much easier to make large modifications to.

So... um... yeah, check on Mudconnector... heh.
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Daz
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Postby Daz » Fri Oct 24, 2003 11:04 pm

its like this, i dont have too much faith in mudconnector, i like sojourn/toril cuz i've known you guys for a significant amount of my life :P

anyhow, where is this karvis guy's link? i actually remember something about him on the mud client area, but ah well.

that kind of feedback was mostly what i wanted though. i'm really just looking for a codebase that is stable, that i can work with, and have fun with. i trust you guys over mudconnector just because i feel i can count on most of you to give me an objective opinion on something.
Shevarash OOC: 'Muma on Artificial Intelligence - Muma OOC: 'someday the quotes really will just become AI and then i'll talk to the AI and be like, hey you come from me, but it will get angry at me and revolt and try to kill me or something heheheh. like in the movies''
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Oct 24, 2003 11:29 pm

Well, objectivity is one thing... actual knowledge is another. The people in the Coding forums over there tend to know a whole _lot_ about mud coding and such, whereas I only know a little from attempting to code on another mud for a few months. And from trying to write my own codebase a couple times... neither of which ever got anywhere near done.

I'm sure the coders here can tell you a LOT about Diku, but they won't be able to tell you much about Godwars or Circlemud or any other codebase.
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I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Someone
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Re: For you experienced coders

Postby Someone » Sat Oct 25, 2003 12:10 am

Daz wrote:I am partial to Diku, for obvious reasons, but it may not be the best suited for what i plan on doing.


No the reasons are not obvious at all.
If you are suggesting this just because toril/sojourn used this as a base 10 yrs. ago it is not a valid reason.
There are deravations after Diku that are far better, also toril/sojourn is a far cry from anything like Diku after the 100's of coders that have been in it.
My best reccomendation is use Circle if starting fresh.
It's very portable and very stable and very supported via their mailing list.

Now that said if you don't have coders to litterly code on it daily you will for the most part have a clone of dozens of other muds out there.
Expect to have to code hours upon hours to differentiate yourself.
And this doesn't even touch on having an area building tool suited to your mud and the area personel to build the areas.

G'Luck
Daz
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Postby Daz » Sat Oct 25, 2003 12:43 am

I have at least 6 people that will be handling programming, and 8 builders to start. that being said, i dont plan on leaving anything i get stock. sojourn, duris, medievia - 3 of the muds i played most were originally a diku code, so it says to me that with talented programmers, it is stable.

i plan on rewriting the combat code, the area code, im eliminating all magic and spells and anything based on that, basically me and one other of the programmers have mud coding experience, 2 of us do object oriented/c++ stuff, ive got a guy who lives and breathes flash and java, and a couple of guys who are just hard core geeks. we want to find something, then rip it to shreds and rebuild it - we just don't know where to start because of lack of experience. in the long run, we HOPE that what we have is something somewhat original, but it doesn't really matter - right now this is just a project among all of us to see how we can handle a live project and work as a team in a goal oriented environment.

i guess im gonna hit up the mudconnector forums, but oh well.

next question -
nobody answered on a decent server to start. eventually, we will host it ourself when its ready to go live, since we have access to unmetered t3 capabilities - til it proves itself, this is a hobby though, and not worth calling in a favor of that level for.

next -
how much does it cost to obtain various mud source codes? what are the costs associated with this? yes these are basic questions, but im asking them to be sure i know and nothing comes up afterwards.
Shevarash OOC: 'Muma on Artificial Intelligence - Muma OOC: 'someday the quotes really will just become AI and then i'll talk to the AI and be like, hey you come from me, but it will get angry at me and revolt and try to kill me or something heheheh. like in the movies''
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:35 am

Most codebases are free for download, but the licenses say you can't make any money from them.

I take it you guys are intent on the "ripping apart" side of things? Otherwise, with all the changes it looks like you guys want to make... maybe start writing your own codebase. :shrug:
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I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Daz
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Postby Daz » Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:26 am

well, none of us have ever written a codebase from scratch, once we rip one apart and rewrite it - we will be qualified to do that :P
Shevarash OOC: 'Muma on Artificial Intelligence - Muma OOC: 'someday the quotes really will just become AI and then i'll talk to the AI and be like, hey you come from me, but it will get angry at me and revolt and try to kill me or something heheheh. like in the movies''
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Postby Wobb » Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:37 pm

Daz, no offense.

Listen to what people recommend. Have you ever downloaded DIKU? Have you ever compiled and installed it? What platform are you running it on? Windows? Good luck getting people to work on the code if you don't have a *nix box.

Running a mud has many facets. Circle is based on DIKU. Diku hasn't been developed for years, Circle is now considered "old". (Meaning DIKU is older). So you have to begin with a decent codebase, and Circle is it.

But before you can even think about your codebase, you have to decide where you are going to host it, and what kind of box you are running it on. This will highly impact who has rights to what. I think its great you have 14 people ready to jump for you, I hope you can meet their expectations as the owner.

Let's say for a moment that you can get past the Hosting and codebase selection issues, who would want to play a 9-11 mud? People want to respectfully remember, not relive it. There are many kinds of mud out there (theme-wise), star-wars, etc...

I wish you luck in this endeavour.

Wobb
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Postby Daz » Mon Oct 27, 2003 8:49 pm

this is not a mud for public, we could care less if people play or don't

this mud is for our own authoritave benefits

the code base, regardless of what we use will be extensively rewritten, and i am not the owner, i am not working it that way. i am going to run the mud like i would run a corporation. i am the initial ceo, and the other coders will represent the initial board of directors. i am likely going to incorporate as a NPO anyway, just to make it official - but that is 2+ years down the road.

i have actually leaned towards a new engine that is object oriented, with lots of development support. the site will be hosted on the newest version of red hat on a dedicated rack server with unmetered bandwidth supported by 2 t3 and several dozen t1 lines for backup. ive used them before for personal ftp hosting, and they average less than 15 minutes of downtime a year, and offer a 24 hour support staff.

as for people not wanting to play a 9-11 mud, i don't want the conservative grandmothers as players anyway. the mud will be 100% player kill, and probably hardcore as well - roleplaying will exist as far as you can take it with those limitations.

the combat system will be reactive based, instead of the boring ho-hum watch your fights progress - it will require either a) constant attention or b) really really complex triggers. fighting styles will be hand to hand untrained, skilled combat, melee weapons (i.e. bats), or ranged weapons.

equipment will be superficial if it is nonessential. you can wear jeans, people can see your jeans, but all they will do is keep your ass warm. the equipment that matters will all be perishable - armor, fuel, foods, precious metals, gems, weaponry, vehicles. any of these items that are not maintained, will be lost.

it will not be 'reliving' 9-11, think a combination of snow crash and mad max in the near future. if i wanted a mud like every other one out there, i wouldnt bother - i am doing this, just like all of the staff are doing this, as a personal challenge to see how we can handle consumer driven development on a prebeta product with live testing on an around the clock basis. there are no expectations to make a great mud that everyone plays. we want a mud that supports our vision and allows the growth of the game as the needs of the players direct us. we have weekly meetings where we will discuss the feedback and progress of current developments, and then make project assignments or decrees based on the time of the staff at that moment, and we will expand where it needs to grow.

oh, as for the full pk, people have asked me about 'griefers' which i assume to be the guys that are a pain in the ass. well, they have nothing to protect them just as you are unprotected - get friends to take care of them, or im sure players will form their own gangs of players to handle people like that. there will be rewards offered for such things, as a nonjustified killing with witnesses or evidence that leads to you will result in a bounty system, or some form of 'reward for' type shit. and, if a gang of people kick your ass, well, next time you make a character, try seattle instead of new york city :P

there will be no magic, and with limited fossil fuels available, you can figure out how easy it will be to just run to the west coast and back to look for someone.

anyhow im rambling that wasnt my intention, i wanted to talk to some friends on here about this, and address wobb's comments that seems to say i don't know what i am doing. just because i am personally unstable does not mean i am not fully capable of running this kind of operation, i have 15 years of computer experience, 9 years of programming 8 years of mudding, 4 years of area creation, and 2 years of operational development with another year of administrative support - all with environments and playerbases ranging from the thousands to in one case, tens of thousands. i also have 2+ years of experience with corporate organization, and i am well aware of how to assign, enforce, reward, and execute various procedures and functions on a personal or team-based level. my experience is a moot point as far as competence goes. i, the person, am a nutcase. my executive and administrative abilities however, are extraordinary, and im egotistical enough to know it, and humble enough to know that i can't do any of this without information, feedback, and support.
Shevarash OOC: 'Muma on Artificial Intelligence - Muma OOC: 'someday the quotes really will just become AI and then i'll talk to the AI and be like, hey you come from me, but it will get angry at me and revolt and try to kill me or something heheheh. like in the movies''
Daz
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Location: newark, delaware
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Postby Daz » Mon Oct 27, 2003 8:50 pm

this is not a mud for public, we could care less if people play or don't

this mud is for our own authoritave benefits

the code base, regardless of what we use will be extensively rewritten, and i am not the owner, i am not working it that way. i am going to run the mud like i would run a corporation. i am the initial ceo, and the other coders will represent the initial board of directors. i am likely going to incorporate as a NPO anyway, just to make it official - but that is 2+ years down the road.

i have actually leaned towards a new engine that is object oriented, with lots of development support. the site will be hosted on the newest version of red hat on a dedicated rack server with unmetered bandwidth supported by 2 t3 and several dozen t1 lines for backup. ive used them before for personal ftp hosting, and they average less than 15 minutes of downtime a year, and offer a 24 hour support staff.

as for people not wanting to play a 9-11 mud, i don't want the conservative grandmothers as players anyway. the mud will be 100% player kill, and probably hardcore as well - roleplaying will exist as far as you can take it with those limitations.

the combat system will be reactive based, instead of the boring ho-hum watch your fights progress - it will require either a) constant attention or b) really really complex triggers. fighting styles will be hand to hand untrained, skilled combat, melee weapons (i.e. bats), or ranged weapons.

equipment will be superficial if it is nonessential. you can wear jeans, people can see your jeans, but all they will do is keep your ass warm. the equipment that matters will all be perishable - armor, fuel, foods, precious metals, gems, weaponry, vehicles. any of these items that are not maintained, will be lost.

it will not be 'reliving' 9-11, think a combination of snow crash and mad max in the near future. if i wanted a mud like every other one out there, i wouldnt bother - i am doing this, just like all of the staff are doing this, as a personal challenge to see how we can handle consumer driven development on a prebeta product with live testing on an around the clock basis. there are no expectations to make a great mud that everyone plays. we want a mud that supports our vision and allows the growth of the game as the needs of the players direct us. we have weekly meetings where we will discuss the feedback and progress of current developments, and then make project assignments or decrees based on the time of the staff at that moment, and we will expand where it needs to grow.

oh, as for the full pk, people have asked me about 'griefers' which i assume to be the guys that are a pain in the ass. well, they have nothing to protect them just as you are unprotected - get friends to take care of them, or im sure players will form their own gangs of players to handle people like that. there will be rewards offered for such things, as a nonjustified killing with witnesses or evidence that leads to you will result in a bounty system, or some form of 'reward for' type shit. and, if a gang of people kick your ass, well, next time you make a character, try seattle instead of new york city :P

there will be no magic, and with limited fossil fuels available, you can figure out how easy it will be to just run to the west coast and back to look for someone.

anyhow im rambling that wasnt my intention, i wanted to talk to some friends on here about this, and address wobb's comments that seems to say i don't know what i am doing. just because i am personally unstable does not mean i am not fully capable of running this kind of operation, i have 15 years of computer experience, 9 years of programming 8 years of mudding, 4 years of area creation, and 2 years of operational development with another year of administrative support - all with environments and playerbases ranging from the thousands to in one case, tens of thousands. i also have 2+ years of experience with corporate organization, and i am well aware of how to assign, enforce, reward, and execute various procedures and functions on a personal or team-based level. my experience is a moot point as far as competence goes. i, the person, am a nutcase. my executive and administrative abilities however, are extraordinary, and im egotistical enough to know it, and humble enough to know that i can't do any of this without information, feedback, and support.
Shevarash OOC: 'Muma on Artificial Intelligence - Muma OOC: 'someday the quotes really will just become AI and then i'll talk to the AI and be like, hey you come from me, but it will get angry at me and revolt and try to kill me or something heheheh. like in the movies''
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Oct 29, 2003 4:12 am

Sounds cool, good luck Daz. :)
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD

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