Depression

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
Daz
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Depression

Postby Daz » Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:42 pm

I have a question for any of you psychology students or people interested in the human mind. The last few months I have delved into the study of Bipolar Affective Disorder and the relating diseases that affect your mind in this particular classification.

Throughout the nineties, there was some amazing research and studies done on the correlation of Borna Virus with Psychiatric Illnesses, most notably to my studies, Bipolar Affective Disorder.

The CDC's data on the relevance of BDV (Borna Disease Virus) suggests overwhelmingly that there is a link, with various groups having a positive RNA match as rarely as 25% of cases, and in as many as 67% of patients, while the control groups have a 0% link in test after test.

Then, in the late nineties, all talk about treatments and studies vanished. I can find nothing but hints and rumours about this link from 2000 forward, not even to discredit it, although the occasional report does indicate that all subsequent studies uphold the original findings, its like the american medical community refuses to follow this particular course of study.

Interesting to note, if this is in fact the case, that psychiatric illness could be caused by a virus, then it stands to reason that while a limited cure may not be immediately available, you COULD vaccinate noninfected people and children who have not yet had the virus (which is passed on gentically) become active.

The drawback on curing psychiatric illness? Currently, the american pharmaceutical industry banks on billions of dollars every year for treatment and medication of depression and other related illnesses. According to a recent publication of pharmaceutical testing practices, the cost to bring a single drug to market is upwards of $800,000,000. If you could cure such a profitable illness, it would certainly hurt the second most profitable ailment of american citizens.

Also, as i write this, the FDA has currently convinced an american court to ban the sale of canadian prescription drugs in america. what does this mean? well, the cost of drugs in canada varies to as little as one tenth the cost of the same product in america. there is really no reason to buy any drug in america if there was a way to get that drug from canada, which, thanks to the FDA, there soon won't be.

What is the point of what I am writing? I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but the more i delve into psych journals, CDC studies, global medical publications, and private university studies, the more i become convinced that there is an active effort to conceal the truth to people, and because I am diagnosted cylocthemic bipolar affective disorder, it bothers me more than a little.

Zoloft and Paxil, two very common drugs prescribed for treatment of depression, are being investigated as a result of claims that they employ ghost writers to amplify reports of their success online. these writers target forums, newsgroups, mailing lists, and are featured in marketing campaigns as 'testomonials'.

In early 2000, the National Institute of Mental Health reported that as much as 60% of funding being allocated for research on mental health disorders was being redirected to nonrelevant studies of different natures.

Well, that is about what I have for relevant facts regarding the origin of this discussion, i am currently building a web site to organize and archive the studies i have found and am continuing to find. As of today, I have some 700+ studies, reports, articles, and columns that include citable facts and references that I want to build into a searchable database for the benefit of people who have or who study Bipolar Affective Disorder and related classified levels of those illnesses.
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Postby Jenera » Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:34 pm

Well, hrmm.
Wow, I really enjoyed reading all that information.
I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder (manic depression as it was known when I was 9(age of diagnosis) so that is what it says on that little slip I got from the doctor. I never knew there were different types of bipolar disorder. I've been on paxilcr, prozac, zoloft, sensival. There were some others my mother said they had me take when I was younger that she doesn't remember the names of and I never knew. As I got older, I knew I was getting worse and worse. Therapists couldn't help me, my parents ignored the fact that I needed help because it was embarrassing, my teachers at school just called me highstrung and doctors just put me on lots of pills that kept me sedated and asleep. Maybe we can discuss this sometime, Daz. I guess what I hope you can answer for me is, can one develop bipolar disorder and have it get worse as the years go by because of trauma and not being able to forget such traumas?
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Postby Daz » Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:21 pm

from what i know of bipolar affective disorder is that it seems to be carried genetically. it then lies dormant until a certain stage of development, at which time it begins to manifest itself in varying degrees. childhood stress, trauma, and environment all play heavily into the development of bipolar affective, and the worse those variables tend to be, the worse the bipolar tends to get.

most of the bipolar people i know seem to have flatlined in their early or mid twenties, but i have never met a person who was 'formerly bipolar'.

as far as medication goes, i would not take any medication from a doctor that is not on harvard's list of bipolar specialists, i.e. -

http://www.manicdepressive.org/referraldatabase.html

yes, there are varying types of bipolar. type 1 - where you are mostly manic with extreme depression episodes. type 2 - mostly depressed with extreme manic episodes. cyclothymic - where you fluctuate between the two. then generic - just bipolar not characterized by the above.

btw, when i said i was cyclothymic, that was what i was diagnosed as, i have since gone all out bipolar type 1

btw, ill post more when i wake up later on :P if you have any questions about bipolar, im a vault of information on the subject :P
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:11 pm

First, I'm going to state that I have been diagnosed as bi-polar since the early 90's and have done a ton of research on it. After that I'm just gonna get bitchy.

I'm firmy convinced that a large contributor to depression and the psychological disorders surrounding it is the willingness of people who are suffering from depression to buy into the whole thing. Yes, I realize that they are bona fide medical conditions. Yes, I realize that just telling people who are deep into depression to just effing pull up their bootstraps is not the answer. The sad fact is, though, that the majority of people who have these "psychological conditions" could conceivably beat them on their own if they only would force themselves to the point where they have to make a change in their own lives, where they have to take control of the condition so that the condition doesn't control them. Convincing people that their problems can be fixed with medication is frequently not the answer, because too often many of the factors underlying depression can be changed with changes in lifestyle, such as changing eating habits, or getting people off the computer and out into the sunshine occasionally, or getting more exercise, or making positive steps towards changing aspects of their lives that are negative. Dwelling on the condition is NOT a healthy step towards controlling the condition, and unfortunately, people who tend to be depressed tend to dwell, and research, and convince themselves that there's so much more wrong with them in a medical way than just a need to put hard effort into changing their own thought processes.

Yes, people CAN change their own thought processes. The medical community is not geared towards teaching people they need to buck up and effing pull up their own bootstraps, however, it is geared towards coddling these conditions and medicating them into dull oblivion. I know I cannot judge others by my own experiences, and I know that the roads that other people walk are not the same paths I have taken. I only know by my own experiences what is possible. In the case of depression, and yes, I was severely depressed and diagnosed as suicidal by the time I was five years old, one of the best answers for it is to try to change your lifestyle and try to change your method of thinking. I went through a LOT of medications, both from doctors that knew the condition and had a clue, and from doctors that would just toss anti-depressants at me in an effort to give me a quick remedy to something they were clueless about. I've been involved in studies and had to spend weeks at a time in hospitals in environments that aggravated the condition to no end. After all the medications and all the treatments, I've found that watching my diet, increasing my exercise, getting out into the sunshine, and thinking happy thoughts has done more for me than any pill any doctor could ever prescribe.

It's taken years and a lot of work, and of course there's a lot of backsliding depending on the circumstances going on in my life (my recent divorce was a total BITCH, but well worth it for my future well-being), but I promise you... if you're not mentally ill to the point where you need some serious help, then you ARE capable of helping yourself, and more often than not, helping yourself a lot more than any doctor can. The first step you have to take is letting go of the belief that the answer to all your problems can be found in a medical journal. The START of a medical condition occurs all too frequently when a potential patient stumbles across medical information while researching some problem they're having, and realizes that many of the things which occur in their daily lives are also symptoms of a condition they can relate to. The problem feeds itself, because part of the condition requires some extraneous cause... some reason to believe that we are not really the terrible, miserable, awful people we sincerely believe ourselves to be, and that maybe something outside our control is causing our lives to suck as badly as we perceive them to. In essence, people who fall into this trap are giving up their control, asking the medical field to take over the functioning of their lives, throwing up their hands and relinquishing ownership of their own states of mind, because it's so much easier than admitting that maybe wallowing in our own misery just might be a huge reason life sucks. All that focus and concentration on one's own misery and self-pity is a huge time and effort consumer, and leaves so little room for the self-improvement which can help fix the problems.

My rose-colored glasses are more than just a lifestyle, they're a life-saver... and the life they save may be your own.

Daz, I know you're going to lash out and tell me what a stupid bitch I am, because the rest of the world isn't like me and everybody has their own problems, and that's your prerogative. I'm not trying to diagnose you, but you seem to go through some very obvious cycles of highs and lows, where in your highs you tell everybody to fuck off because the world is on your side, and in your lows you tend to wonder where everybody went. Whenever anybody calls you on your behavior, these psychological conditions come to rescue you and give you an excuse for your behavior. You're a brilliant, talented young man, with way too many thoughts in your head that seem to drive you nuts sometimes because they're going in too many directions at once. If you could find a way to focus and temper yourself, the accomplishments you've made so far in your life would be minor compared to what you're capable of. It's only a guess, but I personally think you have a greater need for meditation in your life, than medication.
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Postby Cruk » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:31 pm

Being someone who works with young people with mental illness, I would say you both have valid points. Bipolar disorder is an illness which has a large biological influence. That being said, things such as your lifestyle, family and outlook on life play a role in your ability to cope with the natural ups and downs you get with any illness.

I guess what I'm saying is don't give up on medication completely(I have seen how destructive it can be when someone goes on untreated) but that medication won't fix everything. That a lot of non-prescribed treatments will help aswell.

Remember, mental illness is no different from any other illness, such as asthma. Sometimes you get sick, sometimes you need medication but you should still be able to have a full life just as everyone else.

Cruk(sorry if I sound holier than thou, only trying to provide some constructive input)
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:37 pm

Oh, sorry Cruk, you're right. I reread what I wrote and I don't want to come off as if there is no medication that can help, or that sometimes medication isn't really the answer you need. Sometimes medication is necessary to alleviate some of the medical issues which keep you from functioning to your fullest capacity. One of the things I was trying to say in a long-winded, roundabout way, is that way too often, the belief that we need to be medicated can be one of the factors that keeps us from helping ourselves to our fullest potential, and can even be a hindrance in our personal mental health, because those who tend towards depression also tend to want to give up responsibility for their own actions and state of mind.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:36 pm

just curious, how do you know you're bipolar? did you have to get a specific test for it or something? if so why did you take that test
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Postby Vassana » Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:45 pm

My apolgies for being a bit off topic here, but I am hearing some ppl that might be able to help me.

I'm not diagnosed bi-polar or anything like that. But I have (through a bad auto accident) been hospitalized for a very long time. And now I have been home for some time - but I am yet unable to move much. (I'm not paralyzed or anything, just so many broken/shattered bones that are pinned and set in static devices) I havent been able to leave my gravity bed or room for almost 3 months, except getting wheeled around for physical therapy.

I've seen so many doctors that prescribe meds like mad. I was so out of reality for weeks that I still dont feel right. Hours and days seem to disappear at times. I kind of fear the meds now, even though they take the edge off the pain. That pain button on the IV or med pack is a bitch of a thing to quit after 4-5 weeks. I hate the Doctors now and can hardly talk to them.

So my doctor wants me to start taking and anti-depression med now. Because I'm.. well stuck in the same room all the time. But I truly fear the changes it will make in me. I'm so not me now.. dont want to lose anymore of me to drugs.

He says it will make little change in me, but I dont believe it.

V
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Postby Daz » Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:36 pm

This post is a response regarding how to tell if you are bipolar.

http://www.princeton.edu/~anhr/bipolar/ ... er_two.htm

i put that up on my website, so the test in particular is a link.

second, my point to ashiwi - if i respected you, i might be insulted by your post, but i don't, nor have i ever respected you. i find your attitude offensive in light of what i know of your past actions, but whatever.

just because you were able to 'beat' this does not mean jack and shit. congratulations, you win a gold medal in the imaginary olympics. most people can not beat this illness, and let me state right now in case you don't understand me later, you have no right to tell me what i need, since you don't know who i am

your attitude towards this illness is disgusting, because you assume and impose yourself onto the mentality of others, which, for you, is about par anyway.

to the other, nonbitching, whiny posters here, i thank you for your feedback, your comments, and remind any of you that deal with this to get help from someone.

if you want talk about bipolar because you know someone who may have it, or because you think you may have it, then i want to remind you that it is better to ask sooner than later, especially when dealing with an illness that has an effective suicide ratio of 1 in 6.

i have spent the last several years working with bipolar individuals and family members of children who suffer from bipolar affective disorder. ashiwi's generic categorization of this broadly defined illness with her narrow scope of view is misleading, because this is a disease that you can NOT just tough it out with.

nor is there a single medication that works, in fact the most effective solution when dealing with diseases of this nature is a combination of medications, where you will find one drug that stabilizes and the other that treats the active portion of the disease.
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Postby Eza » Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:38 pm

I was diagnosed with Bipolar when I was about 9 years old as well.. I fought it for 12 years, going to therapists, taking all kinds of medication. Anything they told me would work. Nothing *ever* worked. I honestly thought it was hopeless, I gave in to temporary fixes like alcohol and drugs for a very long time to give me even a momentary feeling of something better. Then I found my boyfriend. He held my hand every step of the way, and really encouraged me to work at getting better. He didn't just give me a months worth of pills and send me on my merry way. Between him, and the practice of Buddhism I've found the happiness I longed for all those years. Any therapist will tell you, they're there to help you, to make you feel better.. but why not feel happy? Why not take that extra step? Because you can't find happiness outside of yourself. There is no pill you can take that will make you happy, only better. Why settle? It is possible, anyone can do it.. you just have to believe you can. Your suffering is a tool you can use to make becoming happy *easier* even. If you realize the nature of your suffering, it gives you the desire to get better. Turn that desire into belief, that belief into conviction, take action.. it *is* possible.
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Postby Daz » Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:44 pm

and by the way, ashiwi - before you go around telling people that you are the next sigmund fraud and demand a statue built honoring your insight, your method of 'treatment' regarding bipolar people with accute depression would be responsible for a drastic increase in suicide rates, NOT an improvement in remittal.

and i'd like to know what a 'ton of research' means - that you told the guys how you beat some fancy pants doctor while scratching the hair on your ass?

if you had done research on even a fraction of the information available to people who suffer from bipolar affective disorder, you would be able to look at your own post and realize what an ignorant, damaging post it actually was.
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Postby Daz » Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:49 pm

Eza, the medicine of support is a very real treatment for sure, but do you feel that it is treated, or that it is 'beaten' ? if your boyfriend left you suddenly, would you relapse? if some traumatic episode took place in your life, would you relapse?

the point i want to make is that while i am glad that you are living a healthy life, the bipolar disorder does not just vanish with a hug. you are obviously coping very well, and with the support of your boyfriend you will probably continue living a healthy life.

keep in mind, again, that just because you did not need, nor did they work for you, medicines, the fact is that bipolar disorder comes in varying degrees, and many people are not able to deal with the stress and anxiety of day to day life. for these people, medication is not a sign of weakness, or a show of how tough they are not, medication is in fact part of a solution.

just because its not a solution for you, does not mean it is not a solution for others, and i would rather not discourage anyone who may need medication just because they feel afraid unless they have just cause to be.

its hard enough just being bipolar, much less living with it.



one other thing, eza - were you diagnosed as bipolar? or manic depressive? or some other variant? if it was bipolar, what classification of the illness did they prescribe?
Last edited by Daz on Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ambar » Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:50 pm

she never EVER said she beat it ... she said she has found ways to help offsett he effects ... read Eza's post .. she has done the same thing ...

if you'd take a look at the trend in your postings you would see just how correct she is ... when you are down .. u are oober down on everyone ...

when you are up .... u feel u can take on the world ...

now lay off the elf :P she is a great person :)
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Postby Daz » Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:56 pm

her dwelling on nonpositive adjectives supporting nonfactual evidence angered me, since it is the kind of post that if a young kid would read, would tell him NOT to get help, which is the exact opposite of what i want kids to do. namely, to admit there is a problem, and seek help.

besides the fact that i have absolutely no respect for her as an individual, no respect for her opinion since it is rarely more than that, and the fact that she has insulted me enough times to make me dislike her.

if she wants to post an ignorant post on something, more power to her, but i refuse to respect, validate, or credit her with anything she hasn't earned simply because it showed up on my screen.
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Postby Ambar » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:04 pm

Daz you are so off-base it isnt even funny .. swallow your pride and re-read her post ... there is not one bit of material therein that says her way is everyone's way ..

where she is very clear and concise .. all you are doing is proving her theory that yes u WILL lash out at her ...

i read her post again and see no insinuations at all that she feels medicine doesnt help in SOME cases ... not all cases need meds ... she NEVER says her methods work for all .. she even clearly stated that it worked for her and may not work for everyone ...

climb out of your depressive state and think about others .. you are NOT alone dammit .. dont act as if you are
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Postby Eza » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:08 pm

I'm aware that meds can and do work for other people, my mother takes meds and it's probably the only reason she is able to cope with raising 5 small children on her own. I just think it's important that people know there are other alternatives out there. For me, a combination of Yoga, Buddhism, meditation and the love of a good man worked. There are times when I start to feel bad, but if I think about why I'm feeling that way I can actually tell myself to stop, and I stop. So yes, I do think that I've beaten it. Perhaps something will happen that will bring me down, nothing lasts forever, but at least now I know I can pick myself back up. As for what I was diagnosed as, all they told me was "bipolar". They put me on Zoloft, Wellbutrin and some stuff I can't remember that had a sleep aid in it to help with my insomnia. The insomnia still hits me once in a while, but a melatonin knocks that out almost before it begins. I think that every person deserves happiness. I just hope that it's found in the proper places rather than quick fixes like I used before.. all it does is make things worse in the long run.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:10 pm

Daz, that's okay too. Please feel free to vent about me some more. I knew you'd freak out over what I said and I expected it.

Dartan, you have to be tested for bi-polarity, it's a chemical imbalance. The standard treatment is with lithium and a heavy schedule of anti-depressants. It's usually caught when a patient complains to their doctor about ongoing depression which normal anti-depressants don't have any effect on.
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Postby Daz » Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:12 pm

I'm firmy convinced that a large contributor to depression and the psychological disorders surrounding it is the willingness of people who are suffering from depression to buy into the whole thing.


so you are saying that depressed people are gullible chumps, a condition that you alone are immune to because of your diet, as you point out so often.

The sad fact is, though, that the majority of people who have these "psychological conditions" could conceivably beat them on their own if they only would force themselves to the point where they have to make a change in their own lives, where they have to take control of the condition so that the condition doesn't control them.


Yet again, you say 'fact' when calling sick people chumps. Got it.

Convincing people that their problems can be fixed with medication is frequently not the answer, because too often many of the factors underlying depression can be changed with changes in lifestyle, such as changing eating habits, or getting people off the computer and out into the sunshine occasionally, or getting more exercise, or making positive steps towards changing aspects of their lives that are negative.


so just because you were fat and sat at a computer all day, and you realized one morning that there was a sun outside that you have made medical history?

Dwelling on the condition is NOT a healthy step towards controlling the condition, and unfortunately, people who tend to be depressed tend to dwell, and research, and convince themselves that there's so much more wrong with them in a medical way than just a need to put hard effort into changing their own thought processes.


So, in addition to eating Tofu, you also have to ignore the problem, then it will go away?

The first step you have to take is letting go of the belief that the answer to all your problems can be found in a medical journal.


And Ashiwi's Chicken Noodle Soup for the Ass does have the answers, right?

The START of a medical condition occurs all too frequently when a potential patient stumbles across medical information while researching some problem they're having, and realizes that many of the things which occur in their daily lives are also symptoms of a condition they can relate to.


Really? I'll be damned, I only have 25 years of experience and a decade of research, but I could have sworn there was some genetic involvement here.

The problem feeds itself, because part of the condition requires some extraneous cause... some reason to believe that we are not really the terrible, miserable, awful people we sincerely believe ourselves to be, and that maybe something outside our control is causing our lives to suck as badly as we perceive them to.


First, you used a big word wrong. Second, your summation of the bipolar mindstate is inaccurate. Third, how can it be outside our control when all we need according to you is one less helping of french fries? I could have sworn that you said this WAS in our control, yet here you clearly state otherwise. It sounds to me like you don't know what the hell you are saying.

maybe wallowing in our own misery just might be a huge reason life sucks


Yours, maybe. Your problem doesn't sound like Bipolar Affective Disorder, it sounds like you were overweight and god hated you.

So, let me go back and sum up Ashiwi's book of Bipolar knowledge here.

One day, a chump will read a book telling him he is sick. Because he is a sucker, he will fall ill with this disease, which will be both out of his control and at the same time easily changed by alterations to his diet and going outside. The only cure for this disease is to ignore it while making drastic lifestyle changes. Sadly, the cure results in said sucker being more prone to the next textborne illness to come his way. At this point he kills himself.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:16 pm

Mmmmmmm... french fries....

Damn those sound good right now.
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Postby thanuk » Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:17 pm

Wow. This thread has de-railed.
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Postby Fripple » Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:17 pm

I hope they find a cure for you, Daz.
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Postby Daz » Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:23 pm

So Eza, you are telling me that you went through your entire life with a buzzword illness that you never bothered to clarify?

And they did not diagnose children as bipolar until the nineties. Before that it was called 'manic depression'

Before anyone else reads your post and thinks otherwise, there is NO cure for bipolar affective disorder, and it really sounds to me like some doctor gave you a bum rap on your diagnosis, ESPECIALLY if you think it is beaten. The very nature of bipolar affective disorder will not allow you to think that way without regular medication. No hugs, loves, kisses in the world change that. The only thing Ashiwi has said here that I have agreed with is that it is a chemical imbalance.

I am not saying you don't have a problem, Eza, but there are MANY illnesses that are generically clumped into the depression scope of psychiatry. Unless you are very young, I am almost positive that at the age of nine, no doctor in this country would have told you that you were bipolar. If you were diagnosed as Bipolar, then there are various subclassifications that affect your medication, so it is not like its just a minor detail.

http://www.princeton.edu/~anhr/bipolar/ ... er_one.htm

Which of those classifications did you fall under at age nine?

BTW Dartan, go to the link I posted. That indicator is an almost surefire way to tell if you, or anyone you know may be bipolar. It is currently the industry standard and if you go to a psychologist, the odds are he will be using that same spectrum to diagnose you, anyway.
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Postby Daz » Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:30 pm

Thank you Thanuk, no sarcasm implied.

BTW - Chad Pennington is a pimp, and the Bucs blow, mostly because of Warren Sapp I think.

Fripple, in order to find a cure, they need to identify what I have, which is of itself a fiercely debated topic. Mostly what I use is treatment, which I get in the form of counseling people, doing volunteer work, and charity benefits that I help organize.

I realize that I am moody, but most of my responses that read angrily, are actually meant to be sarcastic. Eza's meditative/buddhist comments were on par, the only thing I have to question in her posts is the true nature of what she may have had. Nobody is ever 'cured' of being bipolar, so I just want to clarify for my own studies if she *knows* for certain that she was bipolar, or if some doctor just gave her a generic classification to satiate his own sense of worth after being unable to truly identify her problems due to a lack of psychiatric testing methods. I don't know Eza, but just from the nature of her posts I wonder if it was not a bout with unipolarity that she has sent into remission.
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Postby thanuk » Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:45 pm

No offense daz, but I took that test that your link went to and I got a 21. I'm not bi-polar, as far as I can tell.

I have a problem with clinical depression, or at least in its current state. Daz, I believe you have bi-polar disorder. But for every one of you, there's 20 people out there who aren't bi-polar, but have been diagnosed as such. I consider it similar to ADD/ADHD. There are people who have it, and many more people who don't have it but are diagnosed as such. The problem is drawing the line between what is bi-polar and what is just being moody. Everyone has good days and bad days, good weeks and bad weeks, hell even good months and bad months. The reason i believe you daz, is because you can snap from good to bad over nothing, and stay there. Other people snap from good to bad, but for a good reason. If your on top of the world, and then your grandmother dies, and you snap to being in a shitty mood and feeling terrible, you aren't bi-polar, you're a human being.

I can't recall the word for it, but there's tons of people who read/learn about a disease, and then automatically self-diagnose themselves as having said disease. There's a big latin word for it that i cant think of right now, but it happens all the time, particularly to people who take psychology in college. So while its great that you want to help people, and I wish you nothing but the best in your struggles with that, I don't want you to go convincing some 15 year old kid that he's bipolar just cuz he got pissed off at his parents when they found out he failed math.

However, if you watch a tampon commercial and start crying because you miss your mother, you may want to look into getting help from someone like Daz. Again, good luck. But tread lightly, it's murky water your swimming in.
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Postby Daz » Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:52 pm

Thanuk, most of what I do is convince people they are NOT bipolar.

I can count the number of truly bipolar people I know in real life on one hand, and i've known her for 6 years.

A large portion of what I intended to do on this thread, Thanuk, was not to hear from bipolar individuals, but rather for people who studied psychiatric disorders in general, and get their observations on the pharmaceutical industry's influence in that field.

Why did I snap on Ashiwi? Because from reading her post, I think she is full of shit, and hopping on a bandwagon that doesn't want people who like the license plate.

Why am I questioning Eza? Because I am curious to know how she was diagnosed at such a young age when this illness is almost typecast by its inability to be properly diagnosed.

Why do I provide information to anyone who thinks they might be bipolar? Because they might be.
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Postby Daz » Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:00 pm

Thanuk, after your post I went back and looked at that test from an outside perspective, and I can see how you determined it is easily misread.

However, one point I would like to remind you of, is that each question's answer is relevant in terms of scale.

Does your mood shift often? You think to yourself, sure, doesn't everyone?

When I see that question, I remind myself that two days after leaving the hospital on an attempted suicide treatment, I incorporated a non-profit organization dedicated to obtaining funding for charitable and creative student organizations. Two weeks after trying to kill myself another time, I was running a 24 hour a day cybercafe and working 18 hour a day shifts, 6 days a week.

So to me, while we both answered the question in the affirmative, I am going to go out on a limb and say that they were looking for answers similar to mine :P Also, that test is just a guide - and it should not be the end-all of knowledge. However, if I knew someone who scored so highly, I would have them speak to someone who is trained in the field.

Maybe you just fit the profile, maybe you don't, but I would MUCH rather have someone go check with a psychiatrist who did not ultimately need to do so than to have someone never get help, and never ask questions.
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Postby thanuk » Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:11 pm

Daz wrote:Thanuk, most of what I do is convince people they are NOT bipolar.

I can count the number of truly bipolar people I know in real life on one hand, and i've known her for 6 years.

A large portion of what I intended to do on this thread, Thanuk, was not to hear from bipolar individuals, but rather for people who studied psychiatric disorders in general, and get their observations on the pharmaceutical industry's influence in that field.

That's good, and I know you were just looking for info here. But you do work in there in real life, so its good to know your aware of the desire for companies like the one that makes Paxil to convince the world that bi-polar disorder is as common as bad eyesight.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Eza » Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:53 pm

Daz wrote:So Eza, you are telling me that you went through your entire life with a buzzword illness that you never bothered to clarify?And they did not diagnose children as bipolar until the nineties. Before that it was called 'manic depression'


When I first went into therapy it was 'manic', but I didn't just go once, I went for years. Cyclothymic.

Before anyone else reads your post and thinks otherwise, there is NO cure for bipolar affective disorder


Just because a doctor says it can't be cured doesn't make it true. That simply means that their method of treatment doesn't cure it. I believe there is a solution to EVERY problem. If it's a problem of the mind, which is what depression is, then the mind is the tool you use to cure it, not some doctor and his magical prescription pad and a group of people telling you they know how you feel. Only you can know how you feel, so only you can make it better.
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Postby Daz » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:10 pm

Ok Eza, let me explain this since you seem to have a great amount of faith in your methods and very little trust in science.

Bipolar Affective Disorder is a disease, a chronic illness, it is a chemical imbalance. Just because the symptoms are not present, does NOT mean they do not exist. They are merely dormant, if they actually exist.

I won't bother 'proving' that there is no cure, because it is a medically accepted fact, not just in america, but around the world, and yes, I even have studies on your buddhist lifestyle treatment plan techniques. If you want more details, I am happy to oblige. Cyclothymic Bipolar Affective Disorder is the most mild form of BAD. Your method of improvement has an average improvement of life rating of about 20%. This means that the other 80% of the people who have this chemical imbalance are likely not going to be cured. Like I said, just because it works for you, does not mean it works for everyone. The MOST that you can hope for, if you are truly bipolar, is that you have stomped that 20% of you into the dirt, and you will continue leading a healthy life. Good for you, but don't let denial bite you in the ass. I'm not the sort of person who will tell you that it is safe just because its dark and you can't see, so sorry if thats what you want to hear.

As for prove it, I have countless pages of studies and report data from the NIMH, CDC, JAMA, MEDLINE, APA, and numerous other organizations that study mental illness. I can cite genome sequences that the bipolar affective disorder strand can be found, i can tell you what part of the world has it worst. i can tell you theorems on the origin and i can hand you analysis on nearly every FDA approved drug combination that is available and recommended as treatment for this illness.

I will also take this time to inform you that 30% of the people who *think* they are bipolar, are full of shit. an d THAT number is from a sample that ranged from 1981 to 2000.
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Postby Daz » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:20 pm

furthermore, since i believe that pissing people off is the best way to make them listen, i have a fact for you, eza.

maybe you did 'cure' bipolar affective disorder.

it is often carried on the mother's genes. i wonder how you are going to explain how your child has an illness that you 'cured'

the fact is, telling people you 'cured' yourself in the manner you stated is false. it builds up hope, it gets people excited. it triggers a manic episode. do you know how bipolar people cope with coming down from a manic episode after realizing that they built their hopes up falsely, eza?

we kill ourselves, or make a damn good effort to do our best.

this is why i don't like people posting misinformation on this subject, like it or not, it affects people's lives. i've lost a couple people over the years, and knowing that misinformation like what you are writing here is the cause of their passing does not help me to just ignore it, when i don't know who may be reading this.

if either you, or ashiwi, can post me a link that shows how a significant percentage of a controlled population was able to overcome bipolar affective without medication, on sheer willpower, then please do so.

my archives date back to 1962, and i don't have any such study on file, so it would be a welcome addition to my collection.

until then, you just need to accept that i have facts, and you are talking into a balloon.

pop.
Shevarash OOC: 'Muma on Artificial Intelligence - Muma OOC: 'someday the quotes really will just become AI and then i'll talk to the AI and be like, hey you come from me, but it will get angry at me and revolt and try to kill me or something heheheh. like in the movies''
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Postby Salen » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:27 pm

If anyone other than a psychiatrist told you that you are bi-polar choose one of the following responses

a) *bird*
b) shoot them in the face
c) give them *bird* then shoot them in the face
d) get a prescription for the drugs, then sell them on the street
e) get a prescription for the drugs, give the *bird, then shoot them in the face, sell drugs on street.

Normal doctors are not trained to deal with psychological disorders (kinda like going to a vet for dental work, yes they had some of it in school, but they aren't good at it).

Next, if a psychiatrist gives you meds and doesn't REQUIRE counselling, refer to the choices above. (this applies to all depressions, not just B-P)

Medication will not work forever, and until the basis is solved/coped with/realized etc., the medication is only putting off the symptoms.

Finally, never trust online diagnoses of stuff unless... nm unless. Never trust it.

No I didn't bother reading everything. No I'm not a psychiatrist. If you don't wanna believe me, fine. *bird* *goes looking for a gun*
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Postby Ambar » Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:15 pm

I think we all forgot daz is an expert at whatever he has researched, and to hell with everyone else ...

Daz the more you post the more credibility you lose ...

You read into things and you misinterperet what you read to benefit yourself ...

Basically what people are trying to say is that not all disorders need medication to cure or lessen the effects of .. why has the world become SO over medicated?? we medicate and medicate and medicate ... then we become addicted or that medication stops woking so we need stronger and stronger drugs ..

what both ash and eza have done is look to alternatives THAT WORK FOR THEM ... neither one has proclaimed themselves an expert, as far as i know neither woman claims to have cured ther illness forever, they merely state the method that works for them .. yet you once again find fault in something you do not believe in so immediately you tell them how fucked up they are or the fact that this would nto have worked on TRUE biplor disorders ... o gee they must have something else...

closed mindedness is the cause of 99% of world conflicts, daz .. you need to open your friggin mind a little more and decide you are not the leading expert on ANYTHING .... simply a jack-of-all trades that knows something about a few things... once you realize you are not perfect, you will truly see a happier you ...

werent you the one looking into budhism a couple of months ago??? or wasnt that you that wanted answers to some spiritual questions??? look to those beliefs again, find inner peace so these demons will stop plaguing you ...
"When a child is born, so is a grandmother."



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Postby Eza » Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:25 pm

Your regurgitation of statistics doesn't mean shit to me, Daz. Statistics can be, and often are, made up.

I'm well aware that it's genetic. My mother is bipolar, so is my grandmother and both of my uncles.

I never once said that my methods WOULD cure everyone, just that they CAN if you really work at it. If you disagree, you disagree. Move on, stop using what I said as an excuse to validate yourself. You can show me as many pages of "facts" as you want, but I believe what I choose to believe, just like you.

Anyone who kills themself instead of dealing with things deserves to be dead. And before you jump my shit about that, I've had people VERY close to me commit suicide so don't even preach to me on that. If you want to die, do it or get over it, don't sit here and ask other people to give you reasons not to. If you take what I said and use it as an excuse to do yourself harm, good.. one less idiot in the world. What I did, I see as an admirable thing, something I can use to give others hope.. and you taking away that hope is sickening.

You said it yourself, you don't know me.. so you don't know what I've been through. You don't have ANY idea of the shit I've had to go through to get where I am today, so you saying that there's no way I could do it is not only stupid, it's ignorant too.

Through the past few years, I've seen SO many posts on here about depression, all made by you.. all saying basically the same damn thing, and all spaced apart just enough so nobody forgets that you're sick. This is the first time I decided to say something in return, and every point I've made you've tried to disprove, without even knowing if it's really true or not, just because it doesn't fit in with your little ideals of how things should be. Just because you're in love with your sadness doesn't mean everyone else is too.


If it gives you what you want, I feel really sorry for you.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:30 pm

And you know... usually when people really want to commit suicide, they go through all the steps to make sure it happens and that nobody else can interfere. Somebody who talks about it regularly, threatens it, or attempts it in ways that they're caught... especially multiple times, they're usually seeking attention, help, or some kind of emotional validation.
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Postby Tesil2 » Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:54 am

Ashiwi wrote:And you know... usually when people really want to commit suicide, they go through all the steps to make sure it happens and that nobody else can interfere. Somebody who talks about it regularly, threatens it, or attempts it in ways that they're caught... especially multiple times, they're usually seeking attention, help, or some kind of emotional validation.


Hrmm...someone just got pwn3d.
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Postby Daz » Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:04 am

Basically what people are trying to say is that not all disorders need medication to cure or lessen the effects of


this one does

as far as i know neither woman claims to have cured ther illness forever,


yes she did

closed mindedness is the cause of 99% of world conflicts, daz


no it isn't

Your regurgitation of statistics doesn't mean shit to me, Daz. Statistics can be, and often are, made up


mine aren't

I never once said that my methods WOULD cure everyone, just that they CAN if you really work at it


yes you did

Anyone who kills themself instead of dealing with things deserves to be dead


and i get flak for saying this because i'm not a card carrying carpet muncher.

usually when people really want to commit suicide, they go through all the steps to make sure it happens and that nobody else can interfere


prove it.
Shevarash OOC: 'Muma on Artificial Intelligence - Muma OOC: 'someday the quotes really will just become AI and then i'll talk to the AI and be like, hey you come from me, but it will get angry at me and revolt and try to kill me or something heheheh. like in the movies''
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Postby Kossuth » Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:13 am

I'm sorry for anyone who's been/is going through this sort of stuff, but this thread is nothing but a flamefest at this point and isn't doing anyone any good in its current form.

If you want to discuss it a bit less belligerently (all of you, I am not picking sides or naming names here), start a new thread and be nice.

This thread, however, is locked as it does nobody any good.
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