Player Council

Archived discussion from Toril-2.

Do you think we need a player council?

Yes, we need a player council. What a great idea Viclor!
4
11%
No, we do not need a player council. Stfu you clueless moron.
16
42%
I think the imms are doing a fine job as it is. No need for changes at this time.
16
42%
We don't need a player council, we just need one individual to help communication between the players and the immortals.
2
5%
 
Total votes: 38
Viclor Voddyn
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Player Council

Postby Viclor Voddyn » Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:35 am

Do you think we need a player council?

Perhaps some individuals chosen by the immortals or by the players to confer on what the players want?

Maybe one individual?
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Postby Eilistraee » Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:53 am

Recently there was a new channel added to the mud, the Gameplay Chat Channel. When we're looking at a project that very strongly affects the entire playerbase, the intent is that it'll be turned on to discuss matters.

Everybody playing on this MUD is already a member of a player council. We look at your feedback, and there is a mechanism in place for a more interactive discussion when we're at a point to best take advantage of it. :) It just takes time till we hit a point on such projects that we need to draw on your experience.
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Postby Viclor Voddyn » Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:03 am

I understand what you are saying, and thats perfectly fine.

But my main concern is to find out what the players want to happen, not if the immortals such as yourself feel the need for player advice is needed.

If the players were really happy there wouldn't be topics everywhere where they are discontented with changes etc.

Whether this topic or poll makes a difference means nothing ot me, but I would like to know what everyone thinks about player/imm communication and what needs to be done about it. The above poll was a suggestion I thought up.
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:53 am

All you need to know on this topic is contained in my sig.
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Postby Viclor Voddyn » Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:59 am

Heh well I thought I'd give it a shot Ragorn...

I anticipated it would be criticised, but hell, I think the players know more about what really turns people off from a mud and what makes a mud work well. They are the ones playing it after all.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Apr 20, 2004 4:55 am

i think one of the major complaints is the players think the developers don't even play the game, therefore don't know what's going on. there's not much "balance" in eq and there's alot of the mud that's never seen because the eq changes raped it
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Intentions

Postby Klandal » Tue Apr 20, 2004 5:40 am

Dalar, I think that sentiment was only reinforced by a great deal of the equipment changes. The vast majority of the people I talked to understood the need for hp reduction across the board, and I think the intentions of the gods were good. The idea of balance in the 'risk vs. reward' aspect is great...

But it's a real problem when the people making the ultimate decisions don't seem to have a grasp about relative difficulty of zones (risk) or what players seek most (reward).

"Shevarash: Regardless, changes are made based on the staff's vision of balance on the MUD...player comments and complaints are taken into account of course, but they are hardly the deciding factor on what gets coded."

No offense, but it's fairly obvious to those who participate the most in the highest difficulty zones/quests that several of the things that actually take the longest to do and are the hardest to accomplish were left in bags when compared with MUCH easier-to-get items. The new point system allotted more points to things calculated, in theory, to deserve more than things that were harder to get, in practice.

Thankfully there was an open forum regarding the changes. It seemed even when there were supposed to be 'upgrades' to items, the changes were realistically lacking substance. I understand it can be hard to know what a class you don't play looks for most in an item. Some of the 'additions' to items were worthless and some complete reallocation of points were a complete downgrade (despite maybe having more points on paper). Lots of these have been changed but several still remain.

This is why I agree with Viclor in theory that people that actually have a more practical understanding of gameplay help make the decisions. Who knows though, maybe in practice it wouldn't work, but running things by those who DO know would at least be a positive step.
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Postby torkur » Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:56 am

Eilistraee, you don't listen to the playerbase, you listen to a select base of players. The same base of players. BIG difference and it shows.


The mud hierarchy here is alot like the current government. A bunch of Republicans sitting around, making changes only listening to Republicans. Then they wonder why all the Democrats and Centerists are mad, fed up with them, and think all the changes are stupid.

The difference is, there are plenty of other games to play, there's only one US government. Your player council will just be another level of the same process, because anyone of a different view (casual player, player for non-zoning reasons, noob) has already stopped playing or will never be allowed on the council.
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Postby Eilistraee » Tue Apr 20, 2004 12:07 pm

I both play the MUD regularly as several different characters, and would like to thank Torkur for informing me as to who I do and do not listen to.

I'll elaborate on what I meant in my initial response to Viclor. It's not a case of when we want to receive player input; that's happening all the time via mudmail, bbs posts and petition. But there are times when we can most benefit from a dialogue between staff and players; if we're in the middle of project A, we aren't in a very good position to take advantage of input on project B and C.

We know there are things you guys want to have, but our time is limited and no matter how mocking one of our former players wishes to make the quote and how often he wishes to flaunt it, with the macro view of the MUD we are in a better position to decide what needs to get done.
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Postby ssar » Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:13 pm

There's no place in torilmud for such, imo.
There's so much more the imms have to take care of/work on etc., and I beleive many players would prefer not to have this.
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Postby Viclor Voddyn » Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:42 pm

shrug, I thought it might help the imms work somethings out, take some of the pressure off.

Either way, keep posting your opinions. =)
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:00 pm

Unfortunately, you don't even tell the players what project A is until they read it in the news.

The head forger has already said that player concerns are not the driving force behind changes that get implemented on the mud. It cannot be stated any clearer than that.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:21 pm

Have you guys even used GCC yet? I've never seen it... and I've actually been on quite a bit lately.

I think GCC is a good idea, but you're probably going to miss a lot of opinions with just using that. People might not be on and such when you activate it, and even then you'll probably just end up with a bunch of bickering. ;)

The forums are good for feedback, but it seems like a lot of players don't visit the forums much. Also we rarely get much feedback from imms on the forums. Sometimes you guys will go through and put in responses to various threads, I remember Shevy responding to almost every thread that was being discussed a couple weeks ago... except for my ranger thread. So sometimes it feels like the imms just aren't paying attention to the BBS, or maybe it's just the ranger threads. ;)

I mean, even if you disagree with the basic idea of a thread then get on the thread and say why it won't fit the MUD.

I don't think a player council is necessarily a great idea either. It'll just reinforce the separation between players and imms, and make what Torkur says an actual reality.
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Postby Savras » Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:58 pm

Sarvis wrote: Also we rarely get much feedback from imms on the forums.


On aspects of policy, its generally up to forgers to post that since they have the final say. Other imms will generally just post their opinions... but...

... a big reason for the smaller number of postings is that everything an imm says is taken as gospel and most posts end up getting ridiculed, insulted and misquoted elsewhere. It might be a case of a few bad apples, but its enough for me not to want to add my comments.

I know for a fact that most imms DO read the BBS though, so all of this is not necessarily falling on deaf ears, just don't expect every post asking for rogues getting invoker spells and innate stoneskin to be acted on immediately.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Apr 20, 2004 4:03 pm

Savras wrote:
... a big reason for the smaller number of postings


Actually, there is a lot more activity from the imms now than in the past. I just don't think we've gotten enough yet.

Don't forget you guys can moderate the forums, and if you guys take the time out to respond to us and someone childishly insults you I wouldn't hesitate to use it. Of course, rational debate could be expected but not the flaming you seem to be talking about.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Apr 20, 2004 4:08 pm

Savras wrote:... just don't expect every post asking for rogues getting invoker spells and innate stoneskin to be acted on immediately.


So you're saying that although we can't expect these changes "immediately" we can see rogue innate stoneskin coming soon? Can we get a specific timeline on this?
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Postby Ambar » Tue Apr 20, 2004 5:34 pm

the GCC is a GREAT addition tho i wish it were on all the time ...

sometimes you want a question answered thats game related and dont feel like sending feeler tells to all the 1000 people that are online but idling ... if gcc were on all the time it would alleviate a lot of problems :)
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Postby Sesexe » Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:43 pm

The staff asks for honest input from the players all the time here on the BBS, most of you just don't realize it, or give it, because of the lack of 'godly' names by the posters.

Look for mortals asking for, and giving, honest feedback on ideas and issues. Might find more then a few staff in disguise posting under mortal names in these environments.

Without a staff member name linked to the conversation, the thread can often be more open and creative to all different people's opinions.

Sadly, most threads of this nature are often detoured by various players who can't get over their own issues.

P.S. Honey is better then vinegar. Doesn't matter how bad your honey is, still better then vinegar.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Apr 20, 2004 7:40 pm

Shhhh! You'll blow my cover! ;)

Sesexe wrote:P.S. Honey is better then vinegar. Doesn't matter how bad your honey is, still better then vinegar.


Not on French Fries.
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Postby Viclor Voddyn » Tue Apr 20, 2004 8:20 pm

Sesexe wrote:The staff asks for honest input from the players all the time here on the BBS, most of you just don't realize it, or give it, because of the lack of 'godly' names by the posters.

Look for mortals asking for, and giving, honest feedback on ideas and issues. Might find more then a few staff in disguise posting under mortal names in these environments.

Without a staff member name linked to the conversation, the thread can often be more open and creative to all different people's opinions.

Sadly, most threads of this nature are often detoured by various players who can't get over their own issues.

P.S. Honey is better then vinegar. Doesn't matter how bad your honey is, still better then vinegar.


If I see a topic that was made by Shevarash it's going to get my attention more than some name I've never heard of.

I would just like more player involvement in what direction this game turns, thats all. But, Shevarash is the boss, and only he can let that happen.
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Postby Sesexe » Tue Apr 20, 2004 8:48 pm

God names will get more peoples attention yes, but it will be more likely to attract people who'll most likely use the forum as a podium to post their grievances to the staff.

Just look at the useless dribble some folks here have posted just to harp on the staff. I mean seriously.


Oh look, a staff member posted! They are suddenly listening! Lemme fill their ears with mountains of personal crap! Joy! Oh Oh and when they finally say something I don't like, I'll quote them and twist their words to work for me for the rest of their lives in any and every thread from here to eternity. Oh Joy is me! Gosh golly, I sure needed a new sig!

:P

Yeah more staff feedback would be nice I guess, but I don't blame them for not wanting to post so much. Do you?
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:30 pm

I think what we should do is just put our fingers in our ears and close our eyes. Clearly there's nothing wrong with the game, it's the people on the forum who are to blame. I mean, if you criticize the Mona Lisa, you're saying more about your skill as an art critic than DaVinci's skill as a painter, and I think the same applies here. I think that players should only speak about game issues when spoken to.

What we need is a common voice, a spokesperson... someone to tell us when it's appropriate for us to speak, someone to tell us who to blacklist, and someone to tell us why looking at peoples' equipment makes you a stinking greedy jerk.

Nominations to be held shortly.
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Postby Corth » Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:02 am

flip
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Viclor Voddyn » Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:09 am

Ragorn wrote:I think what we should do is just put our fingers in our ears and close our eyes. Clearly there's nothing wrong with the game, it's the people on the forum who are to blame. I mean, if you criticize the Mona Lisa, you're saying more about your skill as an art critic than DaVinci's skill as a painter, and I think the same applies here. I think that players should only speak about game issues when spoken to.

What we need is a common voice, a spokesperson... someone to tell us when it's appropriate for us to speak, someone to tell us who to blacklist, and someone to tell us why looking at peoples' equipment makes you a stinking greedy jerk.

Nominations to be held shortly.


I saw this work on another mud very well. Sue me for trying.

The poll results show 1/2 of the people think I'm a clueless moron anyway :P
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:12 am

The fact that anyone thinks we need a "player council" makes me shudder. This BBS is our way to post our opinions/ideas/input. it DOES get read, it DOES get commented on, and not by just a select few. ANYONE that has interest can read and/or post here. If/when there is something wrong, the imms know about it. They listen to most everyone. Even if they don't agree, they will read what you have to write, and post why they do or don't agree.

Placing one person in a position of power, or a few people in a council in that same position would just undermine the voices of the many, and make this BBS less of a useful sounding board.

I would be really surprised if the issue at hand of why we are loosing the playerbase was related to "lack of mortal/immortal communication". MMORPG's, age, technology, i could list a ton more, but i just don't see the point. With some effort, and advertising, this place could be the bustling place it used to be. A start would be a stable/semi-permanent site. This is in the works from what i understand, but i think everyone understands my point.
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Postby Sesexe » Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:55 am

Viclor, I don't think we need a player counsil.

Why? Without a doubt people would be screaming about favortism. Who would pick the people?

Also,

If we had only one individual, it would be even worse.

How? Even more people whining about favortism. The person would have to spend the majority of their time reviewing concerns of players and getting feedback from the staff. That wouldn't leave much time for them to actually play the game, and then we'd have some folks who feel those who make decisions don't play the game yet all over again. The amount of shit this person would get from people on a regular basis would be vast, and I mean VAST.

Viclor, Player Avatars to the Gods/Heroes is a noble idea that I commend you on bringing up, and it does sometimes work on muds.. well.. for a little while anyways.

By the way, there was a time period here were the staff actually didn't go by FR god names in an attempt to be more on the level with players, and one of those Forgers during this time posted heavily on the BBS. This forger burned out rather quickly from the vast amounts of attacks and negativity. In essence, it didn't help at all. Players just got even more out of hand then they are now. Staff posting in the BBS is similar to walking into the breakroom at work and seeing your boss because you know what he looks like, and talking one way. Or walking into the breakroom and talking really openly with someone who you think is another co-worker, but find out is a Senior VP.

Can I make a simple suggestion if you don't mind? Perhaps the next time you want an honest vote on a topic you have conerns with, don't list one of the vote options as a way of letting others rag on you. Your approach on any subject matter only paves the way for others to act in turn.
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Postby Viclor Voddyn » Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:12 am

Viclor, I don't think we need a player counsil.

Why? Without a doubt people would be screaming about favortism. Who would pick the people?

Also,

If we had only one individual, it would be even worse.

How? Even more people whining about favortism. The person would have to spend the majority of their time reviewing concerns of players and getting feedback from the staff. That wouldn't leave much time for them to actually play the game, and then we'd have some folks who feel those who make decisions don't play the game yet all over again. The amount of shit this person would get from people on a regular basis would be vast, and I mean VAST.

Viclor, Player Avatars to the Gods/Heroes is a noble idea that I commend you on bringing up, and it does sometimes work on muds.. well.. for a little while anyways.

By the way, there was a time period here were the staff actually didn't go by FR god names in an attempt to be more on the level with players, and one of those Forgers during this time posted heavily on the BBS. This forger burned out rather quickly from the vast amounts of attacks and negativity. In essence, it didn't help at all. Players just got even more out of hand then they are now. Staff posting in the BBS is similar to walking into the breakroom at work and seeing your boss because you know what he looks like, and talking one way. Or walking into the breakroom and talking really openly with someone who you think is another co-worker, but find out is a Senior VP.

Can I make a simple suggestion if you don't mind? Perhaps the next time you want an honest vote on a topic you have conerns with, don't list one of the vote options as a way of letting others rag on you. Your approach on any subject matter only paves the way for others to act in turn.


I'm not worried about being ragged on in the forums. The forum and the mud are two totally different worlds. In the near future however I will do more research before making a topic like this one. If I had, I would have realised imms make the decisions, and only seek player advice when they want it. I dont totally agree with that, but I dont totally dislike it either. What happens in the next few months as far as game changes go will further determine my opinion in the future.
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Apr 21, 2004 5:59 am

I think you owe torkur an apology for that sassy remark, elistraee, as you took what he said entirely out of context.

he didnt say whome you do or do not choose to listen to, his remark is that there are a lot of players who play the game that never ever make their opinions known here or in game. some do because they see the ridiculing that goes on when anyone attempts to post a new idea, and some because...well who knows.

IF such discussions need to take place - where imms need input from players, then a notice should bt put on the motd in game pointing to a thread in question here.

we know you listen, we know you read, but not everyone is talking.
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Postby Shar » Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:01 am

Just for general information purposes, every single god on this mud plays the game in at LEAST one mortal form. (The only exception to this is 2 inactive gods that contribute something major about once every year.)

Without fail, if you are a god on this mud, you play the game as a mortal. Personally, I have upwards of 20 mortals that I play on a very regular basis. Every other god rivals that number.

Perception is the key. Lots of gods choose to go anonoymous. Look at how horrible the response is to the threads that *do* get god feedback. Those gods who choose to be known as one mortal or another tend to get a lot of unhappy "advice" while trying to *play* the game.

A simple solution in the heads of you out there might be, "well why don't they post these things more often?" We post and post and post, we talk and talk and talk and more often than not, it is wasted bandwidth. Many of the players who create the most fuss here won't EVER be satisfied with ANY level of response/reply/work/effort. Also, we simply *can't* post to every thread that have valid comments. Once in a while, we'll get ambitious and reply to threads with comments or tips or ... anything, and it more often than not results in players expecting things that were never promised. It is a situation that needs to be handled smartly, not just chaotically.

Know how you can help as a player? Keep things in context, listen to what is said by the gods and take it all with a grain of salt. The "big picture" is what is important to have. Most mortals, even if they think they understand the big picture, do not. This is why it is incredibly important for every single immortal to play the game in as many forms as possible.

Several years ago, in its various forms, this mud did not allow the immortals to even own a player character. You were not allowed to play the game. Tell me, what sense is operating or running a game if you know nothing about it?

Rest assured, every thread here gets read by almost every god. It is expected. It is part of the job. Sorting through all the junk to find that one bit of treasure is almost always horrible. It is a thankless job, and the immortals get tired of hearing the same old "we should do it my way blah blah" complaint. Fact is, your oppinion might have merit, but we can only move so fast! Patience is such an asset.

Certain players/posters (and you know who you are) come here simply to cause a stir. The immortals are used to it and while it is far from pleasant, it too is part of the job. My advice on obnoxiously negative posters is : ignore them don't give them the rise they want. That too is the job of the immortals, should we find it fitting.

Player council already happens. It just is not in the form of pre-selected playerbase that have more pull or more say than others. Simply stated, if we DID do that, (which used to happen in past forms of this mud) we would be playing favorites.

No, the game is not perfect, no it is not even close to perfect but I happen to believe (and so does the staff and *most* players here) that we have one of THE best games out there. Sure we have problems. Every game does. Questions that should always be on your mind, if you are concerned about the state of the mud is : Am I part of the problem or am I contributing to the solution? Do I linger simply to cause problems or do I stay because I enjoy helping? If you cannot say you enjoy the game more than you dislike it, you should not be here. Unfortunately, I, nor any of the staff can tell you when you hit that point in your life.

Well, that turned into something much longer than I intended. I honestly don't see how it can be explained better than that. Also, ALL the staff appreciate true concern like yours, Viclor. It shows that you care and that is whats important.

anyway, blahblah, right? :P
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Postby Viclor Voddyn » Wed Apr 21, 2004 11:45 am

Stop playing 20 mortals and start fixing things Shar.


God, lazy immortals. =P
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Postby ssar » Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:05 pm

On the topic of gcc channel..

When it was on the other week some player suggested that an immortal logs all the gcc chat and posts each gcc chat session on the BBS.

I think this is an excellent idea, it would be great for other interested players/imms to examine later/if they missed it online at the time.
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Postby Sylvos » Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:32 pm

Teyaha wrote:I think you owe torkur an apology for that sassy remark, elistraee, as you took what he said entirely out of context.


What's good for the goose isn't good for the gander?
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:25 pm

I suppose we can dispense with all of the pretense and gratuity, and get down to business then. Owing to the fact that this may be my last post on the BBS, you're going to get a RagornPost(tm).. so settle in.

I agree with you 100% Shar, perception is the key. The "big picture" is important for everyone to try to get a feel for when they come to the BBS and put forth their comments. But what you also have to understand is just how important the "little picture" is for the individual player, and I think that perception gets lost somewhere in the void between gods and mortals. Roll your eyes and grit your teeth now, because I'm about to talk about Rangers.

It takes a very special breed of player to play a Ranger on Toril. Because Rangers suck... and they suck hard. Rangers have sucked ever since the days of Toril (the first one), when Bavar and myself held a meeting of 20ish active Rangers on the mud to discuss what needed to be done to fix the class. Rangers have sucked for the better part of a decade. Some dedicated players will put forth arguments to the contrary, but most of those end up being rationalization rather than argument (the class is what you make of it... it's not as bad as you say... I don't think they're useless... etc.).

There has been no shortage of discussion on this board, The Turning Point, or the old EGroup about fixes for the Ranger class. Ranger threads are a cliche on this board now... "rangering" is a euphemism for whining. You MUST be tired of reading these threads by now. But what have you done about it? I was in the closed S3 alpha, trying my best to see something get done about the problem. Rangers got Pass Without Trace, and a couple of proc weapons got added for their benefit. They've had a few bones thrown to them also... mounted combat (caps at 20?), tame mount, forage, woodcarving. Spells like control weather and call lightning, which are largely useless (call lightning didn't kill adult male orcs in split shield during the alpha, show me this has changed and I'll take it back). Missile Shield F'd Rangers in the A, and instead of dealing with the issue directly, a counterbalance was added with +5 arrows. Still no fix for arrows lost on crash. No other class has to quest or zone for a weapon to break through dragonscales (that they might lose in an inopportune reboot).

Since I've started playing (and complaining about) Rangers, seven new classes have entered the mud (Invoker, Enchanter, Illusionist, Elementalist, Lich, Dire Raider, and Rogue). Four new races have been added (Drow Elf, Duergar, Orc, Yuan-Ti). Bards have been reworked (to their much-needed benefit, I might add). Trade was added and removed. The Resurrection quest was redone. Equipment rebalanced (twice or more). Lots of very complicated and involved code has been written and rewritten (or written and removed hehe). A ton of work has gone into the MUD, but Rangers have apparently been a blind spot on the immortal radar for years.

Where's the fix? Where is the post which clearly outlines the purpose of the class? Are they supposed to be dual wielders, or archers? Damage or luring? If they're archers, why do they still have bash and kick instead of bow skills? If they're melee, why do they get bash instead of trip or springleap? Where's the call for feedback? When do Rangers get to be Project A for a change? When is it their turn?

There isn't one. There isn't a fix. There isn't any public god discussion on the topic. We've heard there's some kind of nebulous "melee fix" in the works, and I hope it makes melee playable again. But whatever it is, a sweeping change that affects everybody won't be enough to pull Rangers out of the ditch.

It's all a matter of perspective, Shar. I perceive that squat has been done to make my favorite class playable in the eight years since I started playing here. You don't perceive it to be a priority, and I guess that's one of the areas where our opinions clash. The Ranger issue, and the subsequent lack of god-mortal communication is the primary reason why I left Sojourn/Toril in the first place. I don't think it was unreasonable of me to ask that this broken class get some love. I don't think the time frame was unreasonable... it's not like I made one big post one day and stormed out in a huff. It's been years... entire genres of video games have risen and fallen from popularity in the time since I started making Ranger suggestions. I think we followed a pretty good outline of how to approach the immortals with the problem, at least at first. We defined what was wrong with the class, and we asked for changes. Unfortunately, those changes never materialized. It's hard to put a number on how many players Toril has lost because of this issue or other issues like it. You call for patience, but patience can't be infinite. At one point or another, we need some definite answers, or you lose players.

And so we come back to the issue of why I post here. Your innuendo did not escape me, fear not. I'm not even entirely sure why I have this site bookmarked. If you ask me, I'll tell you it's because I love Sojourn and I want to help it survive and flourish. But when I think about it, history has shown that my offers of help and my suggestions have been declined almost universally. So when I think about it like that, it's hard to say why I've got a soft spot for a MUD that clearly doesn't want to accept my help (and never really has, no matter how much I've offered). And it's that perspective that's convincing me that a minute spent on the Toril BBS is a minute I could better spend elsewhere.

I guess I've gotten more bitter and sarcastic about it as time goes on. I can't help it, it's like watching a dying friend refuse medical care.

So yes, I think it's time for me to move on again. Most of my friends have already stopped playing. I lingered on the BBS to try to provide some perspective into why players are leaving. Maybe it's the last way I could think of to help... maybe some god would listen to why people have quit and put a stop to it. But I'll take your post as another polite "No, thank you." So saying, I wish you all the best of luck as MMORPGs move into their third generation with the release of Everquest 2 and Vanguard: Saga of Heroes.

Shar and Shevy, you guys are great people. Even though I don't agree with some of your decisions, you've always been cool. Keep your OOCs on, you guys are a trip.

Sesexe: Blow me. Something that's needed to be said for a while.

Contact info:
AIM: Drkpaladn0
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email: quakespice@yahoo.com

Anyone who wants to hit me up to chat, please do so (don't turn this into a goodbye thread though, please). Anyone who wants to sign my email address up for goat porn listserves... too late, I'm on them all already. I might drop in to chat once in a blue moon, but I'm removing the BBS from my links. Peace, love, and treehumping for all.

May your path lead to wisdom, and in wisdom, know ye peace.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:18 pm

i understand where you are coming from rags, but i just dont see anything happening to rangers. there have been plenty of opportunities and no shortage of ideas, but they are not being implemented.

in every game i've played there is always one class that just plain stinks on its own, and is only ok in a group. for this game it's the ranger.

but the game is ever changing. maybe something will be coming soon.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Apr 21, 2004 8:02 pm

Ragorn:

Perhaps it would help to understand that this is a new MUD. It is really pretty unfair to blame us for all of the past mistakes of previous incarnations. The management has completely changed, and most of the staff members responsible are not a part of this MUD.

I'm not going to go into the details of the politics, but suffice it to say that up until recently I personally did not have the freedom to fix Rangers (and many other things) in the way that I believed was needed. It's a whole different ballgame now.

Rangers may not have been a priority on past versions of this MUD - but they are now. If we had a larger staff and unlimited resources they would have been fixed already. As it is, I read every single thread about Rangers on this BBS and have spent countless hours of my own free time thinking and talking about them. I'm not going to make any promises about them - I'm just going to get it done. I don't expect anyone to have any faith in that, so for now you'll just have to be patient.

That said - your attempts at "helping" need some work. You haven't played here in four years. Essentially it seems to me that your only real contact with whats going on in the MUD is through BBS posts...somehow I doubt you're getting a complete and objective perspective from that. If you really want to help this game, come play it and THEN make some informed suggestions. Sarcasm and negativity may make you feel better, but they don't do jack squat to help rangers, or this MUD.

Nothing personal, and I really do hope to see you around more. If not, take care.

-- Shev
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD
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Postby Shar » Wed Apr 21, 2004 8:02 pm

Ragorn, I'll simply state (inside this thread where these concerns are not at topic) that ranger fixes ARE coming. As a matter of fact, they are the next project after spell balance is achieved. When will that be? Well, I don't know. When will rangers get the things they want? Well, I don't know that they ever will. Why did we not hop right on it when we split from Sojourn3? Well, we had other issues that were more important.

My previous inuendo wasn't directed at you specifically, or at anyone specifically, but if you took it to mean that it was, that indicates that you fit within that category. I'm not commenting now to point fingers at all the gods in the past who virtually ignored the plight of the ranger and frankly I have no need to. You, as a player, understand perfectly well that this mud has undergone drastic changes since it first opened. It is not my fault that your favorite class went neglected during the years I spent as a mortal and had no voice. It isn't my fault that players are as angry as they are about changes (or lack thereof) that happened (or didn't) when they were initially needed. So, I ask myself, What I can do about it *now*? The things *I* can do are getting done.

The "little picture" or little player is not forgotten either. I understand the issues you speak of constantly and so do the other forgers. We have *several* projects that are nearing completion that will really help address many of them, and no, I won't hint at those at this time because like always, things take an incredible amount of time and players get angry if there are hints without immediate results. Everything here takes time. Some things happen quickly but for the most part, the changes that truly affect game play take countless hours of planning, organizing, thought, code, policy, discussion and critique. Godtime is not a myth, you know that. :P. As for the matter of you not being heard or not having your input matter... have you checked out the faq? Maybe that isn't something large enough to have it mentioned, maybe you expect greater things than that, but when I read your faq (however long ago it was) I was impressed and I contacted you to ask you to allow us to use your personal faq. I guess it dosen't matter. You of course must be right without fail, and without the pov that the operators of the mud have.

Every player here has a voice. Some choose to argue the same points over and over and over (infinitum) until the gods get tired of reading them. This happens SO often that it makes the job of replying to threads horrendous. Somehow, this thread just like so many others was hijacked.

Just so we are clear (we meaning the entire base of players who read this particular post)

YES we see a ranger problem.
YES it IS being worked on.
YES we see the newbie problem.
YES it IS being worked on.

NO there is no date of completion scheduled for "fixes" on rangers.
NO there is no way I can even guess.
NO there cannot be any hints or discussion yet because the framework is still being worked on.

The staff can say it in 89872723 different threads or we can just ignore it, but the bottom line is, we aren't disregarding the needs of specific groups of players. Ever. Period. Contrary to the beliefs of some, the immortals who were responsible for the major "sore" issues are GONE meaning they no longer exist on this mud. The people who would fight the changes or destroy the work are GONE. If you haven't noticed a change in overall staff attitude and work ethic, you haven't been playing. (Btw, the "you" in this statement is referring to the collective you, not YOU.)

Now, in the context of this thread, these last few posts have no place within, and we don't need any more of these types of posts. That is not to say that I am ignoring your pleas, none of the staff do. What I'm saying is, we don't need yet another thread turned into gripes about rangers or low pbase or dwindling numbers of new-character log ins, or anything along those lines. You have spent several years here doing several things with your time spent which means you understand large portions of this game. Well, I have spent the same decade as you, and so has Shevarash and all of the Sr. Staff. The difference between the average player who spent the last 10 years as a mortal character and the staff who not only have mortals, but run the game from the immortal pov, we are able see the game from its very basic elements. It is all perspective. If you lack one side of the vision, the vision is never complete. The Sr. Staff see TorilMUD from *all* angles. It never used to be that way. This "playing while having an immortal" thing is still new to the mud as a whole but undoubtedly, will be better for it.


The vision of the "game" is in place. Now, we just have to make it happen. THAT is what takes time. We are in beta, and beta means testing and changing. Honestly, we probably won't ever come out of beta, but there will come a time when the major issues that now concern the mud will be nothing more than memories.

I'm done now with yet another long winded post about the SAME things we *continually* post about. If anyone has more questions or concerns about these topics you can read all the other posts that the Sr. Staff have made.


One last little note, while remaining unoffended, posts that point fingers at immortals with very little or no responsibility for the issues that might bother you (as a group) starts to get old. Don't place blame unless you are sure there is blame to actually be had. Specifically in this case, there is no blame to be had. All of the staff that are on Torilmud contribute their fair share, and in most cases they do more than is expected. I can hardly say the same thing about a fair number of the loud voiced posters/players and it gets annoying. We do our work here. It is nice to be aknowledged for it from time to time by those same players who shout that nothing ever changes. Things change here. Question is, does the attitude of the "screamers" change? Thats something thats up for debate.
Shar - Forger Administrator, TorilMUD

Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]

Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
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Postby Dalar » Wed Apr 21, 2004 8:40 pm

Can someone summarize Ragorn's post? Also, does his word mean anything to anyone? After his FFXI post he lost all credibility in my eyes. He doesn't even play here so that undermines his credibility too. I could comment about how lame Duris is too, but then again i only played till lvl 31.

Re: Shar
Well I complain alot because it doesn't seem like things are done from a player standpoint. The problem with that is if you tell us what's planned, we'll expect it and bitch about that. If you don't, we think nothing is going on. How about fixing some of the old zones as part of your ongoing project to keep us busy?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Apr 21, 2004 8:54 pm

Ok, going to try and keep this short and non-offensive. But I feel a couple things bear mentioning.

Shevy, this is not a new MUD by any means. Not to those who only play it. Shar is correct about the perspective thing, but you have to understand our side of it as well. We've all played the same game for the last 6-7 years now, and though it has changed name and administration several times it is still the same game. Especially this latest time, when the change was nothing more visible than who had forger next to their name and the url we connect to!

I'm glad to hear that you have a clear plan for rangers and are in the process of working on them. However, this is the very first time I've heard that. I, and possibly others, would have been far less vocal in other ranger threads if we _knew_ work was being done. But to all appearances thus far, it has not appeared anything at all was being done to rangers. Even the news from the time you guys took over the MUD only mentions one change to one item meant for rangers... and from what I hear, that still doesn't help out us human rangers. ;)


Shar, I agree with you on the perspective thing as far as making changes to the mud. But at the same time you have a unique perspective that changes how the MUD plays for you. Hell, for that matter even long term players often have more knowledge and a different perspective than newer players. You do understand more about the overall picture of the mud, and have a certain understanding of playing the mud... but that understanding may be tainted by your knowledge of the numbers behind it.

That's probably already too long, so I'll stop here.
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Postby Sesexe » Wed Apr 21, 2004 9:26 pm

Is this the same place or isn't it?

True story, a little long, but it's worth the read I think.

I worked at a Blockbuster video for about 2 months last year. The entire staff had been fired. Everyone laid off. Bye bye. Regional manager had come in and brought a manager from elsewhere to take over. Things had been run into the ground with the previous management and staff. The store was a dissaster zone. People had a hard time just finding the new releases along the wall. A lot of customers had left, and a lot more were about to. Not everyone was aware of the fact that all the old people were now gone.

The new management highered a whole new staff, and really put the clamp down on the place with an iron fist. We had to stay up all night sometimes getting the whole place sorted out and put in order. Which was still doing on 2 months later. It's hard to get everything straight and in the right place and how folks want it, when they keep coming in and mixing it up on you, and then tossing more and more issues on you to address as well.

Some customers still left, but a lot stayed, and we started getting a slow trickle of new customers coming in. The new manager made it a point that we had to be very friendly with any and all customers. I actually excelled at this, to the point of getting employee of the month and bonuses. I found myself signing up more and more people for memberships. Long time customers would sometimes come in and let us know how great we've turned things around.

Still, we'd get some customers who'd been there during the crap periods who'd stomp and yell at us. "I've been coming here for 3 years and this shit's gone on too long and blah blah blah!!"

Normally once we informed them that the staff is all brand new, and we've only been here for 1-2 months, as a lot of us were transferred in from other well run stores, they'd calm down. It's really not the same place when the people who used to run things aren't around at all anymore.

The current online version of this mud has been in a whole new staff's hands since wut? about 7 months ago? Not even a year yet.

I don't think it's the same place. I'll gladly take the news updates from the last 7 months of ShevMUD and put them against any of the muds previous incarnations.

Think stuff isn't getting done? Do you guys EVEN remember the days of Gond?
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Postby Corth » Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:22 pm

Shev:

You say that you are having a difficult time implementing necessary changes because of a lack of staff members capable of assisting you. I find it surprising that you cannot find more people to join your staff and help you improve the mud. It would seem to me that there are dozens of potential staff members among the long-time players of this mud. I think perhaps you guys are failing to make use of a resource that you have in abundance. I am trying to figure out why you haven't been actively taking steps to recruit staff members.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Shar » Thu Apr 22, 2004 4:14 am

Sarvis wrote:Shar, I agree with you on the perspective thing as far as making changes to the mud. But at the same time you have a unique perspective that changes how the MUD plays for you. Hell, for that matter even long term players often have more knowledge and a different perspective than newer players. You do understand more about the overall picture of the mud, and have a certain understanding of playing the mud... but that understanding may be tainted by your knowledge of the numbers behind it.


Which is why we always ask for player input on all levels. This is also why we have a BBS, why we answer questions over the petition channel, tells, GCC, OOC, and all other channels. :) In no way is MY view the only view, nor is it in a lot of cases the correct view. Human error occurs within the staff (just as it does with everyone else) which means we rely upon the opinions and input of players. The difference between ideas that get implemented and the ones that don't is usually very simple; they either fit the theme or they don't.

My post earlier was poorly worded and I apologize to anyone who tried reading it and fumbled because of it. I had a baby on my lap, laundry over my arm and a pounding headache :) still, I think the points that were made in that post and this post explain things well enough.

Hope that clarifys, even just a bit.
Shar - Forger Administrator, TorilMUD

Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]

Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
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I am the long time casual player

Postby Abbayarra » Thu Apr 22, 2004 5:15 am

First off, most of you don't know me, I'm abbayarra, a 38th level illusionist.
I've been playing since torilmud, that is a long time. I've never got a player past 40th level(human ranger). I still enjoy this place, no matter who runs it. I have only 2 things to say.

1) A BIG HUG for everyone! We all care so much!

2) I don't like the idea of a player council.
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Postby torkur » Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:00 am

Sylvos wrote:
Teyaha wrote:I think you owe torkur an apology for that sassy remark, elistraee, as you took what he said entirely out of context.


What's good for the goose isn't good for the gander?


The funny part, Sylvos, is that 2/3 of the playerbase saw it my way and quit with changes that make no sense like the recent eq ones.....


So the bitterness stems from actually caring when you tell 10 friends what the new IP is for torilmud and everyone states "Why would I go back there? They only listen to the people who play it like a second job."
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Postby Viclor Voddyn » Thu Apr 22, 2004 12:06 pm

torkur wrote:
Sylvos wrote:
Teyaha wrote:I think you owe torkur an apology for that sassy remark, elistraee, as you took what he said entirely out of context.


What's good for the goose isn't good for the gander?


The funny part, Sylvos, is that 2/3 of the playerbase saw it my way and quit with changes that make no sense like the recent eq ones.....


So the bitterness stems from actually caring when you tell 10 friends what the new IP is for torilmud and everyone states "Why would I go back there? They only listen to the people who play it like a second job."



I think they listen to all players, but the ones who play it as a second job are the ones that are always there to give the advice, and can give the most experienced opinions.

In any event, I think this thread is over with. So I'll stop replying...
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Postby Sylvos » Thu Apr 22, 2004 12:40 pm

torkur wrote:
Sylvos wrote:
Teyaha wrote:I think you owe torkur an apology for that sassy remark, elistraee, as you took what he said entirely out of context.


What's good for the goose isn't good for the gander?


The funny part, Sylvos, is that 2/3 of the playerbase saw it my way and quit with changes that make no sense like the recent eq ones.....


So the bitterness stems from actually caring when you tell 10 friends what the new IP is for torilmud and everyone states "Why would I go back there? They only listen to the people who play it like a second job."


If 2/3 of the playerbase 'saw it your way' and quit with the changes, our average login would be thirty-forty players. When the MUD split in October, we usually had about 90-120 players online.

Record number of players on this boot: 89.


You've got interesting math indeed. 2/3 of 90-120 is 1? Wow.
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Postby Caecara Kaletasere » Thu Apr 22, 2004 1:27 pm

Only the gods can know the math of it all and the exactness doesn't matter. And starting to make snide remarks isn't making any point at all.

Like was mentioned in another forum's post, I don't think the idea for a players council would work out very well. It would be nice, if everyone's opinions and suggestions could be displayed through a small group of people, but realistically, it would push views on favoritism, and people would get left out. The BBS, as unproductive as it can turn out to be in some cases, is a great way to do that.

The GCC is a great idea also, although I have yet to see any activity from that at all. Then again, I'm one of those players that would LOVE to have more time to spend, but, reality again, time just isn't there. And the times I can make it, there seem to only be 50-65 players on, as an average. The highest (during the times I be on) has been 87. Yet, that's still a LARGE amount of people compared to other muds and such. It's just not as large as it once was.
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Postby torkur » Fri Apr 23, 2004 7:57 am

Record number of players pre split in october was around 180 most nights, as I recall, and the people I knew still played, casually. 90-120 ppl average nights works for me.

According to your post, record number of players now is 89. Basically 1 guy I know still plays casually. When I log on about the same time of night now, it's about 40-60 ppl average most nights.


Not 66%, so you're right. I'm sorry, it's not a problem worth discussing. You win almighty Sylvos.
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Postby Shar » Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:56 pm

torkur wrote:Record number of players pre split in october was around 180 most nights...


Number of players didn't change from when we split in October. We still have the same numbers logging in.

We lost players during the period we were on a cable modem (for a long time) pre-split.

Players come and go but usually, even if the names are different, the numbers are still the same.
Shar - Forger Administrator, TorilMUD

Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]

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Postby Ofren » Sat Apr 24, 2004 6:12 am

This post turned out longer than expected, so here's a condensed version for those who don't want to read through the whole thing:

1. Soj3 avg record players - 110. Toril - 80-90.
2. There's nothing new about this MUD.
3. There's been no code progress in 5 months.
4. The melee problem was broached 6 months ago, nothing tangible done since.
5. What imms are tired of, what players are tired of.
6. Perspective of both immortals and players is flawed and limited.
7. There are too few active coders.
8. It takes some real brass tacks to ask for donations despite all of this.


As a former immortal who still chats with certain players and checks in on this MUD once or twice a week, I thought I'd offer some "perspective" and clear up a few misconceptions that have been raging in this thread. So, in no particular order:

1. At the time of Soj3's close, the record players for any boot, usually achieved during "peak hours" between 8pm and 2am EST, was around 105 to 110. Not 180, but also certainly not the 80-90 that has been the norm for TorilMUD of late. This is fact, and claiming it is not fact only ignores the widely acknowledged problem that the pbase of this MUD has dropped off since the split.

2. There is nothing "new" about this MUD. It has been operating for seven months now. It is run by a group of immortals who were almost all, if not all, immortals on the previous incarnation of the MUD. This is not a case of firing all of the old staff and hiring brand new staff, and it is safe to say that TorilMUD is well out of transition from Soj3. It is very convenient to blame the problems of the old MUD on politics and staff members who are not here to defend themselves, but that ignores the core fact that the Code FORGER of this MUD was the Code FORGER of Soj3 and the Areas FORGER of this MUD was the Areas FORGER of Soj3.

3. One of the reasons players feel that not much is being done to address their concerns is because a summary of code-related entries in the news file for the last five months, since and including the December 2 entries (remember, the MUD opened Oct 1) looks like this:

Crash bug fixes.
Proc mods / fixes.
Minor changes to commands -- glance, acc, disarm, consider, who, mmail.
Minor changes to spells -- (un)holy word, soul walk, creeping doom, rain of blood, abi-dalzim's.
Minor change to charmed mobs.
Bug fixes -- search, pets and protector mobs.
Bug fixes -- mounts, wormhole, disguise, auction.
Bug fixes -- hitall, disarm, bards.
Bug fixes -- undead vision.
Eat/drink code.
Eat/drink bug fixes.
Rpnews.
Necros -- 4 new spells
GCC

Fixing things that don't quite work as intended is laudable and necessary, no question there. But to players, it's not much of an indication of progress, and if you remove the bug fixes (most of which were minor) and other minor changes, what are you left with for the last five months?

-- Crash bug fixes
-- Two new utilities which are clones of existing code: rpnews and gcc
-- Four new spells for necros, two of which are clones of existing spells
-- Eat/drink code

Now, to be fair, that's only the code sphere. Cyric and the areas crew spent a large amount of time through the end of January on the eq changes. Only problem with that is that the changes went over like a bunch of Nazis in a synagogue.

4. In a similar vein, melee has been acknowledged by almost everyone (even non-rangers!) to be a bloody mess since before the split with Soj3. A thread was started by the Code FORGER on November 6 soliciting input as to how it could be fixed, but what has been done about it since? Four months after the thread was started, the players were told that there's some sort of "grand plan" in the works, but the only tangible results they see are that creeping doom got nerfed and necros got a few new toys, and that was a month and a half ago. Is it any wonder that they're frustrated?

5. Being an immortal on a MUD is a thankless job. That's why I don't understand immortal comments about how their hard work is unacknowledged by the "screamers". That's what you signed on for. It's not going to change any time soon. Players get tired of reading the same old whiny immortal posts about how underappreciated they are and about how "things take time, we have real lives too" as much as iimmortals get tired of reading the same old posts by the screamers claiming "when are you going to fix melee, or rangers, or _______". As others in this thread have pointed out, players have a finite amount of patience, same as immortals.

6. Perspective, as Ragorn and Shar stated, is key. No matter how many mortals the immortals play, their perspective is forever changed and limited by their slavish devotion to changing/running/improving the game. No matter how well the players think they know the game or a particular class, their perspective is forever limited by the fact that they don't see the game mechanics as the immortals can. Unfortunately, I'm not sure there's any way to overcome this dual problem. The current players can't all be made immortals or privy to the same info that immortals are privy to, nor can the current immortals take time off from running the MUD -- and I mean COMPLETELY take time off, not even logging in their immortal character or taking place in ANY behind-the-scenes discussions. More transparency on the part of the immortals might help, though.

7. As I see it, there are two active coders. There were four at the start of Toril -- one quit and one has dropped off of the radar screen. No wonder that there isn't much progress. Far be it for me (or Corth) to suggest how to run the MUD, but two coders is a skeleton crew, at best.

8. Tying all of this together, the MUD is now, for the first time in its ten+ year history, asking for donations. To me, it takes incredible gall a) to ask for the players to give something to a MUD that isn't actively giving back to them, and b) to trade off of the MUD's long history for which the current owners have, in this very thread, tried not to take responsibility.

That's about it. Some might ask why I even bother to post. I guess it's because I have fond memories of the previous versions of this MUD, and quite frankly it's a shame to see what's happened to it since the split. So I offer my perspective as someone who used to be on the "inside" but has now been away from it for a sufficiently long period of time. If it's listened to, great. If not, that's great too.
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:08 am

Ofren, whether you really are a former staff member or not, you make one hell of a strong fucking argument. I often try to support the staff's P.O.V., but as I was reading what you posted, it sent off some very powerful cords of agreement that had been sleeping dormant within me. I don't feel I can really speak anymore about the topics discussed over the course of this thread, because I don't want to go down the road it will lead me to.

I'm sorry :(, but two things I have to make perfectly clear that have really bothered me since they happened. As nice and open minded as I tried to be about them.
1) EQ changes, because it did not involve the open opinion of the dedicated, and fiercely loyal player base.
2) Donations, because it insulted the spirit and history of this long standing free game.

Once again, I'm sorry, but this is how I feel. :(

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