A Fresh Point of View?

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
Savras
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A Fresh Point of View?

Postby Savras » Wed Apr 21, 2004 9:33 pm

I'm going to try this as a bit of an experiment, praying that this won't dissolve into a gigantic flamefest.

First, a little background.(PS: this is just my opinion on the sample game mentioned below, so bear with me)

Master of Orion 3 was a game that came out just less than a year ago. Before release, it was extensively playtested. The playtesters eventually began posting great stories about how amazing the game was, how much fun they were having and how in depth it was.

Once the game was released, however, it proved to be a gigantic disappointment. It bore no resemblance to the much loved 2nd part and most thought the game devolved into playing a spreadsheet. So much was automated in the name of AI that it was like watching someone else play the game.

Why the discrepancy between the playtester reviews and the final product? I think its because the playtesters were initially provided with a very very rudimentary version of the game. They learned to play it and the game was updated weekly with new content and features. A year later, the game no longer resembled the original beta version and was obviously much improved. The playtesters loved it because they compared it to the first alpha and saw all the improvements.

Once it was released to the general public, all of which knew nothing of the history, the true flaws came to the surface.

I think this situation fully applies to the mud in its current state. A vast majority of the players have been here for 5+ years and, just like the playtesters above, constantly (if subconsciously) compare the game to a previous incarnation. In some cases the comparisons are favorable (ie rogues and rogue subclasses were vastly overhauled) and in some cases unfavorable (ie melee damage vs caster damage has swapped in priority). The problem lies in the lack of objective opinion.

What I'm asking here is for the truly new players to post what they think of the game without the baggage of previous incarnations. I'm not asking for just the opinion of those that have played for a week, but late soj3/torilmud people.

So please, if you fit the bill and feel comfortable, post here with opinions. If you see others who are appropriate but don't usually surf the bbs, please ask them to do so. The more info the better, and once again, lets keep this civil.

Savras
Viclor Voddyn
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Postby Viclor Voddyn » Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:19 am

I think a thread like this should be postponed for atleast 2 months, alot of changes are going in, and opinions of the mud will change with them.
Savras
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Postby Savras » Thu Apr 22, 2004 1:08 pm

Viclor Voddyn wrote:I think a thread like this should be postponed for atleast 2 months, alot of changes are going in, and opinions of the mud will change with them.


I think now is fine. The main reason for this is for overall opinions, and now (before any big changes go in) is as good as ever. Plus first-day reflexive reaction to a single change isn't something I would find useful anyway.
Caecara Kaletasere
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Postby Caecara Kaletasere » Thu Apr 22, 2004 2:29 pm

I understand I probably am just out of the category. I really started playing here about 2 years ago. I had only briefly, seen sojourn 2, don't think I got a character above lvl 5. So when I started playing, I really had no experience with muds in general, let alone the toril/mud history. I understood the concept of socials.

For about the past year, I've been able to play on and off, but as I'm trying to finish up school, there's a lot of time that I simply can't log on long enough to do much (how on earth can the people who go to college and play here all the time do it? :P I don't understand *cry* hehe).

I've done the zones, I've done the exp, I've done the quests. Compared to a lot of other people, do I still feel like I'm new, yes. Do I feel comfortable posting here, no. I think I've seen too much that goes on from these boards. Yes, the flames and tangents are often a problem. An answer that is a 'crude' comment, or being told 'you don't know what you are talking about' isn't productive, and (from personal experience/hearing others opinions) pushes people from even asking questions or letting their opinions be heard. And they seem to happen a lot.

Does this bother anyone else? Because, well, to be honest, it bothers me. It bothers me that this happens in a place where a majority of the people here, are implying that they are 'mud mature', if that makes any sense, and have all these years experience. It bothers me that when it happens, it often seems to go overlooked as though its simply a common occurance and that makes it okay.

I don't expect there to be just a simple answer about it. But it is my opinion on the matter.

I also have a question, preferable to be answered by one of the immortals who knows or has an influence over the actual gameplay and what changes will/will not be made. Will this game continue to be (for the majority) a group-based game, or will more changes be coming in to make it slightly easier to do things soloable? I am not asking if a decked out player who knows what they are doing can solo large mobs.

If a beginning character, with basic equipment (no matter what race/hometown), little to no experience with mudding, were to go out and try to lvl 1-20, lets say, would it even be possible to achieve that without getting into a group? I know, myself, when I began, I got lucky. There is no other way to put it. I was there during a time that there were people playing (on my island of all things-elves are helpful, but few and far between on the island) and they were able to help me or group with me. I could have never done it on my own without getting horribly discouraged. Even then, the equipment at least, although it wasn't even near to great, was at least helpful to the small beginner.

And at this point in time, finding low lvl characters to group with doesn't seem to be a very easy thing. I understand, that learning how to work in a group is a valuable thing, even more so for this game in particular. But if someone were coming in with little to no experience (yes, I know that's rare at this point for torilmud it seems) and they weren't lucky to find those few (and yes, it is only a few) people who openly look for new players to help, would they be able to do that before they had a million chances or so to get discouraged and find a mud that was a little more, 'playable' I guess I could say.

And yes, I can already hear some of the comments, 'well, if they can't figure it out by level 20, they must not be bright enough to play here' or 'if they aren't outgoing enough to ask questions, its their own fault.' A new mud can be very intimidating. And well, whether it another game or not, not all people who play them are the most social people in the world.

Hm...I suppose I've just rattled on here. But these are particular things I have seen, and have opinions on. I feel bad though because I also have a lot of other good opinions. It just seems that only the ones that that strike the hardest, are when it really bothers a person.

On that note, I would just like to mention, I think the gods have been doing a great job on the things that have been changing. I know you are responding, and do care, but from a players perspective, it's hard to see sometimes. The atmosphere of Toril is one of the most exciting, and highly detailed that I've seen from muds. But...(I know there's that 'but') it can also feel very impersonal at times, and the feeling (just the feeling, not that this is true) that the 'players' aren't appreciated is there also.

added - I'm sorry if the beginning of this didn't directly relate to the question of the post. But it has some to do with why people may or may not post. I originally only was going to ask about the question of soloability at the lower levels. Something which I feel may be hindering people when they try out the 'game' at the beginning.
Mielikki
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Postby Mielikki » Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:31 pm

We will always try to keep the mud group based, but there are certainly players and classes who are much more capable of soloing then others, but I think we have a pretty decent balance of that right now and we will try our best to make sure this remains a group-based game.

I agree with you that its often hard for low lvl players to find others to exp with, but unfortinally without a rise in new players there isn't too much we can do besides have good newbie helpers to help with problems. There are a few other things coming down the pipelines that might help with this though. I will post about them when they are ready to go live.

Also: We do have several very active coders, so the mud will continue to evolve and change, just as it has over the many years since its creation. Small changes as well as large ones come in, and are eventually overshadowed by newer changes. There may never be a perfect time to wait and post about the mud because it will continue to evolve.

Lastly: Caecara don't ever hestitate to post your concerns on the BBS. Its the best way for us to know what ppl are thinking.
Why there is flaming on the BBS is beyond me, but several gods do their best to keep it at a minumum.
Tubos
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Postby Tubos » Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:52 am

I'm fairly new to the Sojourn/Toril, so I'll share some of my thoughts and experiences.

I had attempted to level characters on this MUD several times over the past few years, but none of them got any higher than level 5 or 6. This past August, I began playing seriously and now have 2 level 50 characters and several low level alts.

Sojourn/Toril is the hardest MUD that I have ever seen to start out at as a new player. Many of the other MUDs that I had played before started you out with enough equipment to get your first few levels within a few hours. I didn't find that to be the case here. This was the reason it took me so long to become hooked on this MUD. I was fortunate enough to run into someone willing to help me out with my first levels and give me good enough eq to survive.

Around level 15 or so, I began grouping for xp and found a group of folks leveling up alts that I xp'd with up through about level 40. These people taught me my responsibilities in a group as a tank, helped me learn to set rescue triggers, and pretty much taught me how the game works.
As far as equipment, up till about lvl 40 or so I was happy to have about -20AC and about a 20/16 hit/dam. There was no way for me to acquire decent equipment at that level.

I recieved a few more handouts from folks and bought some eq at auctions, but didn't begin zoning until about lvl 46, likely because I'm a pally with crap eq, and pallies aren' really used in zone groups too often.

Any I succeeded at hitting lvl 50, and no I don't have the best eq, but its playable.

As far as suggestions for improving the MUD:

1. Start noobs out with a set of equipment that will be playable at lvl 20, and make getting mid-level eq easier for folks that are actually mid-lvl. Or at least have this eq in the noob area on mobs a noob can actually kill.

2. I have played on some other MUD's and one of the most pleasant noob experiences was on a mud where an immortal contacted every new player within a few minutes of creating their character, and asked them if they needed help, showed them around the noob area a bit and helped them with thier first level or so. I don't know if somethin like that is possible here, but it impressed me a lot. This is one of the more complex MUDs I have seen, and it was overwhelming to me at first.

3. The BBS is no place to flame someone, especially in the ideas/gameplay related discussion sections. I had a friend that quit playing after lookin at the BBS a bit and decided that all the players here are assholes.

4. Provide some sort of newbie map that shows where xp zones for lowlevel players are.


I believe that Toril is the best mud that I have played, and hope that it continues to be so.

Just thought i'd offer some of my experiences and opinions. I hope you find them helpful.

Tubos
Sarvis
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:16 am

Tubos wrote:I had attempted to level characters on this MUD several times over the past few years, but none of them got any higher than level 5 or 6. This past August, I began playing seriously and now have 2 level 50 characters and several low level alts.


Out of curiousity, what classes were the characters that never made it? With my knowledge of the mud it is actually fairly easy to start up most warrior classes, but I have trouble getting anywhere with casters... so my theory is that casters are much more difficult to get started with.

1. Start noobs out with a set of equipment that will be playable at lvl 20, and make getting mid-level eq easier for folks that are actually mid-lvl. Or at least have this eq in the noob area on mobs a noob can actually kill.


I don't know about level 20 eq, but slightly better eq might be a good idea. Another suggestion in a different forum was to have the guildmaster give quests to low level characters, with better eq as a reward. The quests would involve some basic tutorial information and such, to help players get to know their class better as well. How does that sound?


2. I have played on some other MUD's and one of the most pleasant noob experiences was on a mud where an immortal contacted every new player within a few minutes of creating their character, and asked them if they needed help, showed them around the noob area a bit and helped them with thier first level or so. I don't know if somethin like that is possible here, but it impressed me a lot. This is one of the more complex MUDs I have seen, and it was overwhelming to me at first.


Never had such an experience, but it does sound like a good idea. The imms probably _could_ do it right now, but if we started getting a good number of newbies it could get rough. They also can't cover all times, such as the very early morning. Perhaps we could have an alert that goes to all newbie helpers when a new char is created, then a helper could contact the person through tell.

3. The BBS is no place to flame someone, especially in the ideas/gameplay related discussion sections. I had a friend that quit playing after lookin at the BBS a bit and decided that all the players here are assholes.


I try to at least avoid flaming, though I'm not always succesful. It's kind of sad that something like this happened, but perhaps we should all try just a little harder to be civil.


4. Provide some sort of newbie map that shows where xp zones for lowlevel players are.


This is also a great idea I think.
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ssar
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Postby ssar » Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:13 am

This is an excellent idea for a thread, and it's great to read newer players' thoughts on the game - please keep them coming!

The first several months of ever playing here is what really hooked me (including the fact that I was new to fantasy MUDs in general), including in no small part the difficulty and challenge of the game.
Now into the high end game for some time, I find it hard to truly appreciate my former (excited new game) views as a new player, and think such views and fresh ideas/aspects are very important.

It's such a shame to hear reports about players leaving TorilMUD (or deciding to not get into it) due to abusive/inflammatory/flame posts they have seen on this BBS.
The players/posters that seem to thrive on this kind of stuff are the minority and best simply ignored.

Most of us are friendly, will help newer folks as best we can most of the time, are here to relax, enjoy the game, have fun, and get Moltok and Tilin killed as much as possible.
BEER
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:01 pm

This thread is neccessary.

What I'm curious about is whether or not people liked the mystery. For me, I loved the fact that Sojourn seemed to strike a balance between not telling you details, and giving you just enough information to work with (at the time, experience was only checkable at the guildmaster, stats were only visible at level 25, and AC was presented as a statement of "You are well armored" or something to the like.) You could figure things out yourself if you wanted to, but it was a struggle to do so and required effort. That effort would then let you tweak your character. Without that effort, people couldn't even begin to do so.
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Ambar
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Postby Ambar » Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:39 am

MAIA babyyyyyyyyy
ssar
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Postby ssar » Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:40 am

Ambar wrote:MAIA babyyyyyyyyy


It was M1A1, get it right mum ;)
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Ambar
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Postby Ambar » Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:33 pm

dont make me spank you young man :P let the grownups talk :P

thanks for correcting me :)

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