Ethics and leading

[moritheil]

There are times when a leader's determination to give everyone a fair shot at equipment is in conflict with the differing merit of players due to their conduct during a zone run. What I would like to ask everyone is, "When is enough enough?" When is someone so blatantly incompetent, AFK, and/or malicious towards the group that they should be kicked out and/or denied a bid?

Although this seems like an easy question to answer, there are many shades of grey that make it difficult.

For example, suppose a player AFKd for an entire zone run and didn't enter portals, etc. I don't think anyone would protest not giving that player a bid.

On the other hand, suppose someone was present for the full zone and credibly did their best. I think everyone would say that they deserve a bid.

However, at what point is the dividing line between the two drawn?

Someone who is at keys for 10 minutes during a 4 hr run is probably not deserving of a bid. Someone who was afk for 20 minutes but present for the rest probably still deserves a bid.

What about half an hour during a 2 hour run? What about 1 hr during a 2 hr run? Where do we draw the line? Where is there a point at which we can say, "Okay, you HAVE done something, but you've caused so much grief with your disappearances that we can't give you a bid?"

For that matter, what happens to people who can't fulfil their intended function? If you bring along a cleric and all they do is cast flamestrike, holy word, and full harm, and you see tanks and casters dying without any heals going off, is it fair to not give them a bid? If you bring along a ranger to lure who only later mentions that they have no bow or arrows and can't lure, but their damage is negligable, should they get a bid? What about a rogue you bring along in case you need to CR, whom you suddenly find hasn't kept their skills up and can't even CR themselves?

And what about people who play very well, given their limitations, but who are 10+ levels below all others? What if a 36 warrior with great gear and an intelligent player wants to tag along for the zone? Should you give them a bid? No? What if everyone else of their class sucked so badly as to almost be as bad as them despite having 10 more levels?

The overarching principle of zoning is something like this: We put in effort; we expect to have results - results being a chance at winning items. But in almost every group, not everyone contributes the same. Sometimes it is a simple difference in ability or experience. Sometimes it's the result of the player not caring, or being inebriated or otherwise intoxicated. (For the record, I don't care about intoxication at all, except where it grossly impairs a player's ability to do things, so please don't sidetrack this thread with some sort of rant about Prohibition.)

I've seen a lot of situations wherein people who are incompetent, inattentive, don't care, or all three win bids rather than those who held the group together. I think any experienced zoner sees that on a fairly regular basis. What I question is the effect that this has on peoples' morale. I have seen many players leave in frustration after the player who did the least for the group, or was a tremendous hindrance, wins the best item from the zone. In fact, several people have expressed this as a theory, going so far as to say midzone, "Oh, I saved everyone's lives - that means I probably won't win anything decent," or, "Oh, he's afk again? Man, I bet he wins the best item at the end too."

So now that you hopefully have an idea of what I'm talking about, the questions to be discussed are these:

1. Is this, the current condition, evil? (Substitute the terms: wrong, unjust, unfair, inefficient, or disheartening, as you prefer.)

2. Is this neccessary? Must we allow it to happen? Does it require fixing?

3. What, if anything, should be done regarding this?

4. Is there any sort of universal agreement about this? Can we all agree on a standard? Or are the obvious examples above the only things we can agree on?

Having asked these questions, I want to reiterate that 95% of groups do not have these sorts of concerns at all. The vast majority of zoning does not involve such painful disregard for group or zone, and for that I wish to thank all of you.

[Sarell]

Repeat afk offenders and rude players don't get as many zone invites in my estimation.

I think you can do whatever you like with afkers in zone. Togpc is a great new command for fun jokes :) As far as getting a bid, how on earth do these guys always manage to turn up as soon as you ask for mmail me bids, im not quite sure, sounded trigger on 'bid' I imagine or something.

There have been times I have dropped someone for a replacement who is going to be at keys however gennerally I just try and pick the people who I know will be, or will let me know if they are going to go afk at any time. Ultimately if someone can't play with a group due to being afk/ignorant/just downright annoying then sure it's annoying and a fact that they will win heart/ice ring/etc etc... but they will only get that one shot at it. (well maybe four shots by the time I remember a name)

If someone was that blatantly doing nothing then ....hrmmm .., impossible to say where to draw the line..., should bards get bids?*duck* *touch*

[Lilithelle]

I think its only come to replace someone once and they're were understanding since they needed to afk alot. It really depends on reason, people who are looking after children while mudding get alot of sympathy from me. People who are afk playing another MUD get very little. Usually I just get upset and yell at people that afk, and don't kick them. And I don't think I've ever denied someone a bid for competance or afking, but then I'm a soft touch.

I just don't invite people to zones that are afk or not good at playing their class. Though I'm more understanding of people who don't play their class well because they're relatively new to the game or the class, takes time to learn, get the skills, get the right triggers/aliases, or the best eq. Clerics that don't even try to heal garner little sympathy.

Evils have used a system of group voted MVP to reward people who play their class well, even classes that may not seem ideal can make key differences or stand out. Like a druid that throws heals when needed instead of just blindly nuking, or a ranger that rescues a caster since the warriors might be in bash or shieldpunch lag, a ranger can tank better than a caster and it gives the warriors extra time to react. I guess on those zones where the problem is particularly acute you could vote an LVP(least valuable player) and deny them a bid or only give a 2nd round bid. If its voted for by the group its hard to argue with the outcome.

I don't usually penalize people, probably because I like to avoid confilict and really don't want to try to argue with someone over their merits in a zone. Its also not always easy for me to see how good a job someone is doing, usually I'm concentrating on leading or the fight at hand. As long as no one dies I can't say whether or not the clerics or enchanter or a tank was doing their job.

I'll probably stick to my system of inviting people to zone who I know do their jobs well, which is a real shame as it denies others zoning opportunities they may well deserve, but if I see a good enchanter on I'll take them over one I don't know but might also be quite good at what they do. I respect your decision to take less well known or less experienced people to zones Moritheil, its very egalitarian, and sometimes fun is more important than finishing a zone in 1.2 hours with 0 deaths.
Lilithelle

[Vorkul Tigerclaw]

I'd think it would be the leaders preference to whom they let in their group, and who gets the bids.

While Lilithelle might be sympathetic with me watching kids (I don't have kids, just an example) Mori may not.

If Leader thinks they deserve a bid, then they do, if not they don't.

I sorta like going by the what the leader says goes, I really don't think its neccesary for the whole group to get involved.

[Salen]

Just so long as you make it clear at the beginning how bids are being given out, no one should complain. When you wait till the end and say
'Oh by the way, you don't get to bid on X because you came in partway through even though without you we couldn't have finished' is crappy, as is,
'Oh, I forgot to say at the beginning, I need X item to finish a quest so it's not for bid'.

If you tell people up front that you're not giving bids to people who AFK without telling you, it's absolutely fair (and in psychology theory, much more likely to keep them at the keys). Similarly, if you do replace or add people, make sure the rules get repeated.

Finally, if someone does something crazy impossible that saves the day, don't feel bad about altering the bids for them
i.e. when we did Salen's ress, Rylan somehow not aggro'ing the 2 patrols making it half way across the map, holding the zone, and being in position to summon/ress us back in, saving the day from a total spank, !eq CR. Had it been my lead (and if the zone actually had anything in it) I'd have had no problem giving him a bonus bid, nor backchannel browbeating people into agreeing.

[Vahok]

Shrug, things seem to be O.K. as they are right now. I am happy when the player we all see AFK, running away from the group, basically doing their own thing, win the best item? Of course not. But I tend to look at it their are times I'm not my sharpest, and have won eq, so I figure it balances out. I just hope zone leaders realize who is the pain in the ass, and stop taking them along for the ride. Personally, I'd rather sit the extra ten minutes in WD, then take someone we know is trouble just because they are the needed class.

Mind you, I enjoy eq but honestly that is not the reason I zone. I go for the pure fun, and if I win something, great! But I'd rather give up a bid, or bid on a lesser item so a more deserving player could get the one more suited to them. I mean, that is the part that annoys me...for example, you see enough non-tanks with muspel invasion rings, and yet my main has none. But I do see many zone leaders are correcting that type of problem via resricted bids, or other systems of bidding. So all in all, no complaints.

[Tasan]

Mind you, I enjoy eq but honestly that is not the reason I zone. I go for the pure fun, and if I win something, great! But I'd rather give up a bid, or bid on a lesser item so a more deserving player could get the one more suited to them.

Well put.

The entire mud could benefit from a less selfish attitude overall.

!!x

[Pril]

I fully agree a lot of people out there are bidding on eq and then i see it in the FS/FT board within 5 minutes, it's really kind of sad. If you don't need the eq don't bid on it seriously it'll work out better in the long run anyways because people will like you more, invite you to more zones, and eventually you'll be bidding on equipment that you do need.

my 2 cents
Pril

[Sesexe]

Moritheil,

What might be enough for you, is probably a lot more then I can stand.

Let me explain my view point. I'm a serious leader when it comes to my group rules, as I enforce them without question. I let folks know at the start:
1) AFK in my group, I ungroup you. Right then. Right there. I don't care what your class is or how bad I need it.
2) I don't know the zone as well as I should, therefor I will need you and everyone else to be at their best as their current class. If we spank, it will be your fault for not doing your job, so do your job and do it well.
3) I lead fast and blindly. Mem/pray when I call it, or get left behind.

These simple rules keep my groups organized. Players keep chatter to a min (there's always some small banter going on, but folks keep focused), and we see splendid results in groups because of that focus. I've seen some truly amazing work from players as their classes this way. People are professional in the sense that they are having fun showing how great they can be, and how working together, we are all relying on eachother. I need you as much as you need me. :)

But as a leader with such low tolerance for bad behavior, I do feel there has to be breaking points within a zone. This is to give people a chance to do something in RL they might need a couple mins to do (get a drink, take a wiz, change the baby, etc.).

Also. I never put new players in important situations. If I have a new shaman let's say, I'll grab an old timer as well. So the new can learn with the old, and so the old can help the new do their jobs, and therefor help me in turn by not telling every single player what their job is.

I love taking new players to zoning, but I never flood my groups with them. A serious minded zone group should never have more then 50% new classes in it.

So to me. You break my rules, your gone. If you're gone, you don't get a bid. It's that simple.

As for gMVP (group MVP). If I see someone who has gone above and beyond the call, I'll just give them my bid. On rare occasions I might call for a group vote of MVP, but 9/10 times I just give them my bid and announce the MVP. (It's usually very obvious who stood out anyways).


As a leader, I am only as great as those who follow me.

[moritheil]

Just so long as you make it clear at the beginning how bids are being given out, no one should complain. When you wait till the end and say
'Oh by the way, you don't get to bid on X because you came in partway through even though without you we couldn't have finished' is crappy, as is,
'Oh, I forgot to say at the beginning, I need X item to finish a quest so it's not for bid'.

If you tell people up front that you're not giving bids to people who AFK without telling you, it's absolutely fair (and in psychology theory, much more likely to keep them at the keys). Similarly, if you do replace or add people, make sure the rules get repeated.

Finally, if someone does something crazy impossible that saves the day, don't feel bad about altering the bids for them
i.e. when we did Salen's ress, Rylan somehow not aggro'ing the 2 patrols making it half way across the map, holding the zone, and being in position to summon/ress us back in, saving the day from a total spank, !eq CR. Had it been my lead (and if the zone actually had anything in it) I'd have had no problem giving him a bonus bid, nor backchannel browbeating people into agreeing.

Salen, what I'm talking about is almost exactly what you're talking about, flipped into incompetence instead of merit.

I have great issues with punishing group members, precisely because I tend to give people a little more credit. I understand that things pop up in RL, and people need to leave the group early and such. If we've done eq, I ask them what they want to bid when they leave. So what I'm asking for is not a potentially politically influenced "Survivor" type vote [as someone suggested above], and certainly not something that I would want to engage in regularly.

I don't think it's any stretch to say that I have seen a great many things go wrong in groups. I have experienced bizzare problems that were previously not thought possible. [Example: Imix wanders deep into Brass and smites group as we mem, having just killed blocking entry guards. I was assured that nobody had agroed him previously, and I didn't see anyone agro him on FP on the way in. Anyone remember that one? Thanks again to the CR team, if you're reading this.]

Yet every now and then I see something so transcendently wrong that I say to myself, "Can I really allow this person to have even a chance of being REWARDED for what they just did? Do I want to be a party to such a thing?" Lacking a clear code, however, it's hard to be even about it, and without assurance that such a reaction is fair, I have always erred on the side of giving people the benefit of the doubt.

What I'd really like to suggest is some code that I can quite simply point to, some measure against which any leader or group member can prove that things are far beyond the pale with regards to issues of competence or misconduct. Maybe I should trust my instincts. Maybe that feeling of "WRONG" in and of itself should be enough to tell me that things are "sufficiently wrong" to take action.

I guess what I'm asking for, then, is for the group to stand behind a group leader's decision in those rare times.

[Ambar]

if the group leader appears unsure, you wont see much support .. when he acts as if he is in charge and handles things responsibly he will get 100% support

if you announce your intentions at the get-go people will either not go if they disagree, or agree and go and have fun

[Alomlim]

Mori, I think most ppl meet incompetence or misconduct with the usual passive-aggressive response of

1. bitching to their guildies
2. not inviting them again

Seems to work well!

However, there are a couple of alternatives that other ppl really do use, and maybe you might adopt

Alternative 1: abandon them mid-zone

<SOME LEADER>: wtf are you doing <player>?
togpc <player>
ungroup <player>

Alternative 2: yell at them
<SOME LEADER>: WHAT IN GOD'S NAME ARE YOU DOING <PLAYER>?
<SOME LEADER>: WELL? WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO SAY FOR YOURSELF?
<SOME LEADER>: YOU'RE ABOUT AS DUMB AS A SACK OF HAMMERS. NEVER CONSENT ME AGAIN.

So those are other options to think about!

[Artmar]

Maybe I should trust my instincts. Maybe that feeling of "WRONG" in and of itself should be enough to tell me that things are "sufficiently wrong" to take action.

That's likely the best solution. If you'll create rules, you'll eventually get borderline cases (which tend to generate both arguments and lawyers). As Ambar said in the post above - if you announce such a policy in advance, and be decisive in enforcing it when necessary, i don't think that you'd get much opposition (except perhaps for a person in question).

[Jurdex]

Easy solution.

I get all the eq.

moooahahahaha

Dornax
Jurdex

[Delmair Aamoren]

You know, not the moral question this started as, but a different question
has now come to mind... why bid on stuff you are only going to sell? hell,
why bid on something only for your alt when someone in the group that
can and will use it worked equally as hard for it? I understand that there
are some people that would rather play their "alt" in a group but get roped
into playing their main because it's a "core class", but sometimes its just
rediculous. I, for one, in the earlier stages of this wipe, would always
forfeit or bid for someone other than myself if they needed it worse. now,
since nobody else seems to have the same ideal, i don't do that nearly as
often. If there is nothing from a zone, i am likely to just walk on by, but if
my alt needs it, i will probbably bid. Is this selfish? perhaps. I guess my
point is, if people forfeited their bids on stuff they don't need, then bidding
probbably wouldn't be such a huge ordeal. Bidding things for "trade bait"
is just lame imho.

As far as the should the afk'er get the bid? i concur that it should be the
leaders choice. If you don't like it, then don't group with them anymore.
If that is not a sufficent answer, then discuss your situation with them, and
perhaps the next time things will be different.

[Sesexe]

You know, not the moral question this started as, but a different question
has now come to mind... why bid on stuff you are only going to sell?

Why roll an alt that you're never going to play because everyone needs as you as your main?

Why even zone if you're going to do zones you don't need the equipment from for your main?

Hell, why even mud anymore at all after you got everything?

I mean really. People who bid for items to sell or for their alts are just so freaking lame! Yeah! They shoulda just stopped playing entirely. Jeez.

/Sarcasm

[Delmair Aamoren]

Your signature says it all.

[Xisiqomelir]

To answer Delmair's question, handouts are the solution.

[kwirl]

Ultimately, we all draw our own lines as to just what is acceptable behavior and what is not. What you might never consider doing, may prove to be the best solution to a problem that another character has.

I personally would not bid on an item for trade or sale if another group member (primary, not alt) needed that item on their primary character. Short of that criteria, anything is ok. However, I have often lost bids to people who ended up selling an item or trading it, and really its no big deal.

It isn't my place to pass judgement on another character about what happens after a split. Had I won an item, I would like to think that people would not be angry at my behavior, however the resolution. With that in mind, it is best to just try and be a graceful loser at times, and understand that eventually karma will come back and provide all you need.

[Crumar]

When I lead, if someone afk's without telling me what I do now is ungroup the person. If someone causes a group spank and its pretty evident, I just remember who it was and try to avoid asking the person to zone for the next week or two. Then I invite them again and if they screw up a second time, I know they don't care about really learning how to play their class so I never invite.

Also, I think I am going to start restricting bids on hard to get items for certain classes like the Musp Ice Ring that casters keep bidding on for example. There are a few leaders I know who already do this, so things like this need to be addressed so that there is a balance of eq going to the right classes.

You have to use your judgment and basically weed out all the bad apples that continue to frustrate all. If someone needs to AFK due to rl issues and they tell you try to accommodate them as best you can. IF they continue to do this on a regular basis then its obvious rl is more important to them than being at keys and helping group, just don't take them anymore. Yeah people have kids and need to take care of them, I am sympathetic to them too but some people should not be mudding at all period. If they have real life obligations to take care of don’t go zoning, log off and take care of the situation (e.g. your kids). But if it comes up unexpectedly and you know your not gonna be on for awhile tell your group leader that and I am sure they will be understanding. (It wouldn't surprise me that a repeat afk'er might use this as an excuse now just so they can abuse our trust *chuckle*)

If you expect to get a bid from me at the end of zone by just tagging along and casting one or two spells or rescuing once or twice and then afking you can forget it. Repeat afker's already don't get invites by me, and you know who you are. You brought this on yourself so don't blame me or any other leader who enforces this rule. As for new players I only like to bring one or two into a group at most so they can get the feel for their class and what they need to do in order to function on this mud. If you bring more then that expect spanks because it takes everyone to be on their "game" to avoid needless spanks. Everyone makes mistakes, I do it from time to time so does every other experienced player I know. But if they don’t learn from it and continue to do it then just don’t group them its obvious they don’t care.

Crumar.

[Hyldryn]

I have yet to witness a time where the leader actually refused ppl bids.

[Crumar]

I have yet to witness a time where the leader actually refused ppl bids.

If a caster is in group who has a tank or hitter alt of high level who can use signet ring for instance then no it wont be restricted, but if they are just bidding to wear it as a caster then yes they will. Lilithelle and other leaders who have lead Musp have done this already. To many casters are bidding on items they can easily get from another zone. Items like this should be bid on by tanks and hitters in general anyway. Casters can wear a variety of rings instead of this one, and get the same hp whereas only hitters can bid on this one ring for instance to get this reward. I have seen a caster recently bid on storm bracelet and use it as trade bait too, its just gotten out of hand and leaders need to see that this is starting to become a problem. Restricting bids on high end items to those who need it over those who will trade it is not wrong imho. If you dont think so then dont follow me simple as that.

If your gonna bid on an item bid to use it.

Crumar.

[kwirl]

I'm in favor of handout style splits :P

[Hyldryn]

Restricted bids I've seen. Refusing a person a bid outright I don't see happening, ever. Too subjective, as well as causing grief and bad blood. Even though its a good idea in theory.

Can you ever see this happening? "Hey warrior X, you sucked. Your level 41. You never rescued or did anything besides sometimes assist. I even specifically told you to shieldpunch, but you didn't listen. You don't deserve a bid." I can't, especially not with such a small mud.

[Crumar]

I have never refused anyone a bid ever. Nor do I plan to no matter how bad person played. I will just never group with the person if he or she continues to play poorly otherwise if its a rare occurence then no I will continue to group with em. Just saying even if you play like crap you still get bid, never said you wouldn't. Maybe others might I have no clue, but all I know is if someone keeps doing it over and over they get no invite simple as that.

Crumar.

[moritheil]

Restricted bids I've seen. Refusing a person a bid outright I don't see happening, ever. Too subjective, as well as causing grief and bad blood. Even though its a good idea in theory.

Can you ever see this happening? "Hey warrior X, you sucked. Your level 41. You never rescued or did anything besides sometimes assist. I even specifically told you to shieldpunch, but you didn't listen. You don't deserve a bid." I can't, especially not with such a small mud.

Hmm, I'm not talking so much that as "Hey, you afk'd for 90% of the zone even though we brought you so you could lure. When you DID lure, it took you only two seconds to lure the area boss and kill off the entire group. You then AFKd for the CR and didn't get anyone's corpse, and we had to call in outside help and spam you for consent to CR you. When the group tried to talk to you hours later, you insisted you had done nothing wrong and the group was lucky to have you."

Or maybe "Hey, I told you you shouldn't use area damage, and you aread repeatedly. This wasn't irreversibly bad, even despite your killing off the quest mobs for the zone, until the wandering nonagro dragon came in and breathed. We didn't know it breathed all, and two people who didn't have all prots lost their bags with 1 years' worth of work and items in them. When you were asked about it you shrugged it off and laughed at the people who lost gear."



I hope I'm making clear that a level 41 who doesn't shieldpunch when asked is a detriment, but not necessarily malicious or astoundingly bad. What I'm talking about is not an everyday occurrence.

[Ambar]

i love the 90% afk who is first to bid :)

[Salen]

I've been on the receiving end of ' You can't bid on stuff because you weren't here for the whole thing'(SPoB), even though I was the only choice for enchanter and was there for the last of wisps and final 2 major fights.

The crap part was not being told that until after the zone was over. That is one of the single most lame things I've seen since SJ3 wiped. Also, the enchanter who left didn't get to bid at all either. Essentially, that means the group got enchanter for !bid. So now I make sure when I join to ask 'Am I actually going to get to bid this zone?'


Also, 'I will never group with them again' is stupid. If you are willing to work WITH them, you can probably get most mudders to play much better. Perhaps if they repeatedly suck over a good amount of time there is no hope, but I have met very few mudders that stuck around but never got any better.