The people of Iraq

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
kwirl
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The people of Iraq

Postby kwirl » Wed Sep 29, 2004 7:09 am

First of all, I want to start with a nod towards the republicans.

I have been reading passages from the BBC forum for arab's to communicate their feelings towards america, and I think i had forgotten how dire their situation was. To be honest, the American media has showed this war from all the wrong angles, and has completely taken me away from the real issue, which I believe is to fight terrorism by establishing a strong democratic nation at what could have been considered a foothold of terror.

Keep in mind, I still oppose Bush for his lax policies and care of homeland issues, but I think I will go against the liberal opinion that we are fighting a losing war in Iraq.

We are fighting a *costly* war, however, and I think we need to make amends to other nations,especially those practicing the democracy that we preach, and hold out our hands to their support.

That out of the way, I want to know if there are any programs that the readers of this forum know of that would enable me to convey my support to the Iraqi people who are rooting for our team to win?

Is there an exchange program, where I can travel there, or provide housing for an english speaking iraqi to come here? I would appreciate the opportunity to firsthand reinforce their faith in our country by showing them what they are fighting for, and giving them an avenue to return home with a response to the negative rhetoric they endure constantly.
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Postby kwirl » Wed Sep 29, 2004 7:12 am

“America is the leader of the world and she represents the tip of the pyramid in economy, science, sports, military power and many other fields and if someone is looking for progress, justice and freedom then America is his destination while those who want to bring back the dark ages consider America their enemy.
It’s true that America and her society have some negative points but these look tiny when compared with the positive ones.
America’s success is a success for the civilized world and her failure is a failure for the whole world. If you don’t trust my words take a look at America’s allies and friends and see how they live and then take a look at America’s enemies, they’re living in poverty under oppressive tyrannies. Just make a comparison between the two Koreas to have a closer view”
Mohammed Khafaji-Babylon/Iraq.


“The problem lies inside us, the Arabs; whether governors or citizens. We’re still living the era of backwardness, ignorance and crying for the past. We don’t understand how decisions are made in America and the defect is within ourselves.
I’m a big admirer of America and the progress that America had achieved in such a short period.
One more thing, those who offend America must not forget that it was America who helped the Muslims in Albania, Bosnia, Kuwait and Sudan. Where is the Arab civilization? We never saw the Arabs offer help but we all saw the food packages and flour sacks carrying the letters USA.
The problem with Arabs is that they always have find someone to put the blame on.”
Fadi-Libya.


During the eighteen months that followed 9/11 we were dreaming of the day when the “zero hour” finally comes and nothing will ever match what we felt when we saw the first missile strike Saddam’s palace.
After we started this blog, we had the chance to meet many Americans, both civilians and soldiers and we discovered the noble feelings and the warm wishes they have for Iraq and Iraqis and that made me believe more than ever that we’ve put our trust in the right place.
Yes, I love America and I’m a friend of all American, and I’m truly proud of that, and so are many, many Iraqis who owe their freedom to the great sacrifices made by American people.


- posted by Omar
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Postby kwirl » Wed Sep 29, 2004 7:26 am

How and where can I go to find information on volunteering my time and abilities to Iraqi citizens? I think i want to put off school, and spend time over there now, while they need the support.
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 29, 2004 7:34 am

No link to the BBS? Some of us are too lazy to try and find it ourselves you know. ;)

I'm going to go ahead and take all of this with a grain of salt, however. I'm sure Corth and Rylan won't, because they are so blindly optimistic that they cannot see how anything could be wrong. I somehow doubt ALL Iraqi have these feelings of love for us. In fact, if they did there would be no problem with insurgents.


Things to consider:

1) These posts are in English, meaning the Iraqi posting them are educated.
2) They have reasonable computer access, which means they are likely in the least violent and hard hit areas.
3) Anyone with a computer can log in, claim to be an Iraqi and write a rosy picture of fiction.



In ANY case, I would strongly advise against going to Iraq any time soon. Even if 90% of the Iraqi people love Americans, that other 10% is armed with guns, bombs and a reckless disregard for their own lives! We'd hate to lose ye...
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Postby kwirl » Wed Sep 29, 2004 7:47 am

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/

i think dlur put it up?

actually, the writers are doctors, so yes they are well educated.

thanks to our efforts, large parts of iraq are gaining connectivity with the outside world.

least violent areas? they live in the heart of baghdad, actually.

i'm fairly certain the BBC could at least verify the authenticity of which COUNTRY posts were coming from.

from *EVERY* internal, non american media outlet i find on the internet, and the harder i look, the more i see; i find nothing but an iraqi nation that is sincerely passionate in their support of america's efforts to liberate them, and the resistance comes from people who are not concerned with iraq's future, but rather with america's.

i'm not expressing a 'we won' attitude, far from it. this is a long haul effort, and i think we have a long way to go. but what it seems to me is that we are winning.

btw - republican posters - you know what would really make me eat my words? private financial contributions from the republican sector towards the rebuilding of everyday life in iraqi life. and corporate tax write-offs don't count :P

i wanna see george bush or any of his buddies dip into their pockets and send over a big fat personal check with a 'thank you' note.
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 29, 2004 7:58 am

Err... thought you were talking about a forum, like this one, on some BBC site. That blog site is run by the BBC? Doesn't seem to say that anywhere on the front page...

What do you mean by internal, non-American, media outlet? Iraqi news agencies? Or other foreign news agencies like BBC news (though I wouldn't consider that internal, which is why I am asking.)

Can you link to some of these?
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 29, 2004 8:52 am

Wow. Haven't really had time to go through all the links, but at least a couple of them seem a little right wing biased.

That last link, however... wow. A rabid right-wing clone of Fark.com. I mean, seriously... being right-wing is one thing, copycatting other, more popular sites is another!
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Postby Disoputlip » Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:11 am

The biggest difference between this war and the last war was that UN accepted the 1st war.

UN did not accept the 2nd war. And it was not just because Syria was the guest in the security council.

This is americas war. (Sadly it is also the war of it's allies, Denmark included) But it is not a war of countries that said don't go to war.

USA is an empire, and act as an empire. In percentage they use much more on military than small demokracies in europe.

To put hard against hard is a strategy. Some don't beleive in that strategy. Now USA is in a mess. It's their own fault.

The UN that was looking for neuclear weapons in Iraq before. That was stressing the government. Oil embargo was hitting the population.

I know CNN etc. bring stories that war was the only sollution. Mabye they are true, but remember how many that protested when the war began.

The ones that write in those BBC forums equal KKK. Even America got people like that. (even well educated)

/Disoputlip
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Postby Shar » Wed Sep 29, 2004 2:19 pm

Wow, Sarvis. You really seem to have a lot of strong feelings towards "right wing" opinions. Attacking Corth and Rylan from within a new thread in which neither has posted a word is kindof tacky. It makes you look like you flame on purpose and I know that isn't your intent. Calm down a little bit and take in the big picture. You don't have to defend something that hasn't been disputed. The whole world isn't against you here. Those of us in the middle can see that "left wing" and "right wing" are extremes. Balances come in the middle. Where do you stand? Be careful not to lean too far in one direction, you could fall off the platform!!! (you in general, not you specifically.) You do have a good point about taking these quotes with a grain of salt though. Media as a whole (even BBC) is biased one way or another. People need to translate what the reporters say/print through their personal crap-detector to make sure they get the whole story.

Kwirl, I think your new passion on this subject is admirable, but you too should be careful. Wouldn't want to see another innocent get hurt while simply trying to help. I have put together several care packages to citizens of the Iraqi nation via a community effort. (You can probably find some useful information on this inside your nearest major city if you'd like to contribute the same way.) What they need is primitive and simple, but they do need it. The care packages are a way to touch needs on a very basic level. Things like double folded and sewn absorbent diaper towels (used for maxi pads by the women,) gauze bandages, blankets, easy food kits, that kind of thing. You'd be surprised what a person is reduced to when their initial physical needs aren't being met. There are other less invasive ways to help, incase you are worried about actually being inside the war zone. Just a couple thoughts for ya.
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 29, 2004 2:39 pm

Shar wrote:Wow, Sarvis. You really seem to have a lot of strong feelings towards "right wing" opinions. Attacking Corth and Rylan from within a new thread in which neither has posted a word is kindof tacky. It makes you look like you flame on purpose and I know that isn't your intent. Calm down a little bit and take in the big picture.


Meh. It was born partially from them not even attempting to deal with some things I had posted in the other thread, being tired, and being at work and rushing... heh.

You don't have to defend something that hasn't been disputed. The whole world isn't against you here. Those of us in the middle can see that "left wing" and "right wing" are extremes. Balances come in the middle. Where do you stand? Be careful not to lean too far in one direction, you could fall off the platform!!! (you in general, not you specifically.)


I think I'm fairly moderate really... maybe I just appear to be far left when compared to extreme right-wingers.
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Postby rylan » Wed Sep 29, 2004 3:39 pm

I tend to think that the majority of the media is biased and they show what makes headlines. They're going to get more people to watch their shows and read their papers when the headline says '20 killed in bombing in baghdad' than if the headline was 'Iraqis speak out in support of reconstruction'. Notice how pretty much the only news that gets widely reported is negative?
Sarvis, no I am not blindly optimistic, but is it nice to see something somewhere that mentions the positive parts of whats going on in Iraq. Is it too hard to focus on some of the benefits even part of the itme instead of bashing the war and saying how its all going downhill all the time?
Oh, and I think we tried to deal with what you posted in the other thread.. however it was just met with cinicism and disbelief of any positive points and disregard for negatives about Kerry. I don't like a lot of what Bush has done, but I at least have an idea of where he stands... something I still can't say for Kerry. Maybe the debate thursday night will change that.
Funny how you imply that some of us are extreme right-wingers, when that is hardly the case for my views overall. In fact if the democrat party actually went back and had a candidate that believed in how they used to be 40 years ago I'd vote for them.
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:03 pm

rylan wrote:I tend to think that the majority of the media is biased and they show what makes headlines. They're going to get more people to watch their shows and read their papers when the headline says '20 killed in bombing in baghdad' than if the headline was 'Iraqis speak out in support of reconstruction'. Notice how pretty much the only news that gets widely reported is negative?


And yet, 20 people still got killed in a bombing in baghdad. You can accuse me of focusing on the negatives, but it seems like some people *coughBushcough* want to completely ignore them.

Sarvis, no I am not blindly optimistic, but is it nice to see something somewhere that mentions the positive parts of whats going on in Iraq. Is it too hard to focus on some of the benefits even part of the itme instead of bashing the war and saying how its all going downhill all the time?
Oh, and I think we tried to deal with what you posted in the other thread..


I was mostly refering to The Project for the New American Century, which may be the entire impetus behind this war and which no one at all in any way commented upon in the other thread. Also I posted a page listing the flip-flops Bush has made, which also recieved no comment.

however it was just met with cinicism and disbelief of any positive points and disregard for negatives about Kerry. I don't like a lot of what Bush has done, but I at least have an idea of where he stands... something I still can't say for Kerry. Maybe the debate thursday night will change that.
Funny how you imply that some of us are extreme right-wingers, when that is hardly the case for my views overall. In fact if the democrat party actually went back and had a candidate that believed in how they used to be 40 years ago I'd vote for them.


Voting for someone who has done a lot of things you don't like just because you know his position seems like a bad idea. Is there no one else who deserves your vote? Take a look at the third party guys if you really don't like Kerry and can admit Bush isn't doing so well.


Bleh... seriously getting tired now. Worked third shift, plumber got here to fix one leak at 8:30am... now noon and he's just down there swearing his head off. I wanna go to bed...
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Postby Disoputlip » Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:44 pm

rylan wrote:I tend to think that the majority of the media is biased ....


Don't want to hijack the thread, but remember this is the 10 year of the Rwandan genocide.

In 1994 mostly male tutsis (a tribe) was killed. Deaths are counted to 937,000. (Estimated 1 mill+)

Nobody could make the story interesting, so only the "dry" newspapers wrote about it.
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Postby Shar » Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:44 pm

Lets debate bush/kerry crap in that other thread. This one is a positive spin on a negative situation. War is negative because it results in death. The outcome, however, may turn out to be a positive thing. Kwirl has brought up something positive. Don't spin it into a presidential debate. We have another thread for that :P
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Postby Dlur » Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:45 am

One soldier's view of Iraq:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20040825-085738-5773r.htm

The cumbersome process of transitioning from decades of dictatorship and war to capitalist economy and democratic governance is an easy target for negative media reporting. Combine this with politically charged election-year rhetoric, and you might as well abandon all notions of objective reporting on Iraq.
For many Americans, the mere mention of Iraq produces significant mental discomfort. The usual reaction to this topic is one of disgust or disappointment. To what can we attribute this common but unfortunate reaction? In a word — the media.
Political biases aside, the revitalization of Iraq has produced some of the most stunning successes in the history of postwar reconstruction. Oddly, the media has ignored these successes in favor of marketable themes like violence, corruption and doom. Skewed media reporting is distorting Americans' perceptions of historical events in Iraq and is quietly undermining democratic progress in this area of the world.
However, I am currently serving with the Army in Baghdad and I can say that Iraqis have witnessed things even fiction writers would have a difficult time imagining. In the last 18 months, we have seen the transformation of social, economic and political structures most countries struggle decades to achieve. The media, as well as historians, would do well to pay attention.
Security: In July, the first independent Iraqi army battalion assumed responsibility for its own area in the Al Rashid district of Baghdad (a story in itself). This battalion is operating at a level comparable to an American infantry battalion and serves as a model for future Iraqi forces. Roughly 65,000 Iraqis now provide for their own security. Iraqi Police, National Guard, Facilities Protection Service and the Iraqi Counterterrorism Task Force constitute a security apparatus that is the envy of Iraq's neighbors. Neither Japan nor Germany achieved this level of military and police reconstruction in the 18 months following World War II.
Power, infrastructure, industry: The level of electrical production in Iraq exceeded prewar levels after only 12 months. What happened to that news story? The more significant fact is that the distribution of electricity is no longer denied to traditionally Shia regions as it was under Saddam Hussein. Seventeen-thousand miles of irrigation canals have been cleared, and they now irrigate fields planted with tons of genetically superior seed.
Employment: In the last six months, Iraq's growing industry, security forces and civil projects have resulted in economic prosperity for thousands. Teachers earn up to 23 times what they earned 18 months ago. Similar figures apply to doctors, soldiers and civil servants. In the last six months, more than 15,000 new jobs were created in the Al Rashid district of Baghdad alone.
Governance: Iraq stably attained sovereignty after 15 months — an unprecedented achievement. Neighborhood, district and city councils have empowered thousands of Iraqis to make positive changes in their local communities. The councils enabled the formation of viable political parties and have set the stage for successful elections in January.
Will the media continue to ignore Iraqi progress and cover the situation here in a way that causes American decision makers to abandon their support for these initiatives? With the American people as the decision-makers this fall, this question figures prominently in the minds of Iraqis.
Just ask any Iraqi.

Capt. Luis M. Alvarez is stationed in Baghdad, Iraq.
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Postby Dlur » Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:50 am

Information on what the US is doing to rebuild Iraq to levels it never would have achieved under Sadaam's rule:
http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/

Information on what you can do, if so inclined, to help rebuild Iraq:
http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/humanitarian_assistance/disaster_assistance/help/index.html

More stories (the kind you won't hear on CNN or ABC) about possitive aspects of what is going on in Iraq from an Iraqi or Iraqi-American perspective:
http://www.untoldiraq.org/index.cfm
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Postby Dlur » Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:55 am

Here is information on how to help our Active Duty Troops (a group of which my sister happens to belong to).

*** DISCLAIMER ***
This is NOT ABOUT POLITICS. This is NOT ABOUT THE PRESIDENT.
This is NOT ABOUT THE WAR.

This is about extending kindness and generosity to people who realy need it...soldiers who are serving overseas and/or who have served in this recent military operation; soldiers and their families who need our help.


Please utilize the resources listed below to help our troops and their families ~

PAYPAL ~ www.paypal.com
Any soldier with a PayPal account can be sent electronic funds which s/he can then automatically deposit into a financial institution. This is great for purchasing more phone minutes on calling cards and anything else a soldier may want or need.

HOMES FOR OUR TROOPS ~ http://www.homesforourtroops.org/
Their mission is to build specially adapted homes for our severely disabled soldiers and their families. Since they started this organization, they have had an outpouring of support from all across America including monetary donations, donations of building materials and equipment, and fundraisers being hosted in their benefit.

THE WOUNDED WARRIOR PROJECT ~ http://www.unitedspinal.org/pages.php?c ... torder=100
The "Wounded Warrior" project seeks to assist those men and women of our armed forces who have been severely injured during the conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere around the world. Many of the injuries are traumatic amputations, gunshot wounds, burns and blast injuries that will retire these brave warriors from military service. These wounded soldiers will return to civilian life minus one or more limbs, or with serious wounds or disfiguring scars, and will face greater challenges today obtaining assistance and finding opportunities that would enable them to provide for themselves and their families.

FALLEN PATRIOT FUND ~ http://www.fallenpatriotfund.org/
The Fallen Patriot Fund of The Mark Cuban Foundation was established to help families of U.S. military personnel who were killed or seriously injured during Operation Iraqi Freedom. Financial resources are vital to enhancing the sustainability of the family unit who has suffered a loss because their loved one sacrificed him/herself for freedom. Within that group, grant recipients will be selected in accordance with criteria established by The Mark Cuban Foundation. All proceeds will be disbursed.

THE FISHER HOUSE ~ http://www.fisherhouse.org/
The Fisher House program is a unique private-public partnership that supports America's military in their time of need. The program recognizes the special sacrifices of our men and women in uniform and the hardships of military service by meeting a humanitarian need beyond that normally provided by the Department of Defense. These homes enable family members to be close to a loved one at the most stressful time -- during the hospitalization for an unexpected illness, disease, or injury. There are currently 31 houses located on the grounds of every major military medical center and several VA medical centers. These houses play a key role and are a vital asset to our military by allowing them to care for casualties, and their families, from Operation Enduring Freedom and will play a critical role in caring for casualties from Operation Iraqi Freedom as well. It is their goal to create "a home away from home" that allows guest families the opportunity to address any challenge they must face during a time of crisis with dignity, and to give them a sense that there really are those who care about them in their time of need. You can donate to the Fisher House. This money will go to the upkeep of existing Fisher House locations, to a fund for families who have lost a son, daughter, husband, wife, father or mother, and also to building a new Fisher House at Walter Reed Hospital where many of those injured in Iraq are now being treated.

WOUNDED HEROES TRIBUTE PAGE ~ http://www.caringbridge.org/wounded/heroes/
Leave a message in tribute and support for the men and women injured in the war.

DONATE GROCERIES ~ http://www.commissaries.com/certificheck/index.htm
A new partnership between CertifiChecks, America's hometown gift certificate resource center, the United Service Organizations (USO), the Air Force Aid Society (AFAS), Fisher House Foundation, Inc., and the Defense Commissary Agency (DeCA) lets every American make a significant material contribution to the morale and well being of military personnel at home and across the globe.

OPERATION UPLINK ~ http://www.operationuplink.org/
You can donate calling cards so military families can stay in touch during their extended separations.
*** Remember, PayPal (www.paypal.com) can be utilized to donate phone minutes to soldiers too.

OPERATION HERO MILES ~ http://www.heromiles.org/
Through Operation Hero Miles you can donate your airline miles to American soldiers so they can get home to visit with their families.

UNITED SERVICES ORGANIZATION / Care Packages ~ http://www.usometrodc.org/care.html#support
You can donate money to the USO to help sponsor care packages sent to the troops through this site.

ARMED FORCES EMERGENCY RELIEF FUND ~ http://www.afrtrust.org/
Each branch of the Armed Services has an emergency relief fund. Their money goes to help the soldiers and families with paying for food and rent, medical and dental expenses, personal needs when pay is delayed, and funeral expenses.
*** ARMY EMERGENCY RELIEF ~ http://www.aerhq.org/donation.asp supports the families in the United States Army, as well as the members of the US National Guard and the Army Reserve.

RED CROSS: Helping Military Families ~ http://www.redcross.org/services/afes/0 ... 3_,00.html
Contact your local Red Cross chapter and find out how you can help the military families in your area who are struggling in this time of war.

BOOKS FOR SOLDIERS ~ www.booksforsoldiers.com
Soldiers post requests for books; you pick a soldier/s for whom to send books.

DEFEND AMERICA ~ http://www.defendamerica.mil/support_troops.html
This page has NUMEROUS links to ways to support our troops. There's so much here, it's hard to know where to start.


Any kind, generous act, no matter how great or how small, will be received with heartfelt gratitude from our troops and their families.

Also, if you personally know a soldier, or member of any of the Armed Forces branches that is stationed overseas right now, don't be afraid to contact their family, if possible to get their email or mailing address. Send them an email, or better yet send them a care package (http://www.operationac.com/dw_pages/itemsneed.htm) that has not only items the soldier can use, but also stuff for the Iraqis.
Ghimok|Dlur|Emeslan|Ili|Zinse|Teniv

*~~~~~~~~~~*

"Censorship is telling a man he can't eat a steak just because a baby can't chew it." - Mark Twain
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Postby kwirl » Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:34 am

Thanks for all the info, but I want to go there in person and help. I have no desire to send anything, I want to show up in person and start doing something physically.
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Postby Corth » Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:51 am

Kwirl,

Best way to get over there is actually to get a job. I forget the name.. a subsidiary of Halliburton.. Kellog Root and something or other. They are looking for all sorts of people and paying quite nicely. Of course, your literally risking your neck. In your spare time, and with your newfound wealth, you will be able to help Iraqis in whatever way you want.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby kwirl » Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:16 am

my little brother served, but couldnt remember the name of the firm


risking my neck is the point - ill be damned if im gonna let angry veterans ever accuse me being a pussy
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Postby Ensis » Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:04 pm

kwirl wrote:How and where can I go to find information on volunteering my time and abilities to Iraqi citizens? I think i want to put off school, and spend time over there now, while they need the support.


Sounds honorable mang, but remember the Nick Berg's and american contractors that have been killed, as well as the armed soldiers that have been killed. Unless youre ready to die for the ideals, you may want to rethink it. Otherwise, check out Red Cross/Red Crescent. Though you may or may not be of use without medical training.

From the sounds of it, you'd be better joining the Peace Corp. for what you want to get done.

As for the veterans accusing you of being a pussy, if they joined the military to show how much balls they have they didn't have much to begin with. Paying taxes, following the laws of your country, and exercising every right granted to you is just as patriotic if not more than "serving". If I hear anymore bullshit about how someone in the armed forces is somehow a better american im going to have a fit.
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Postby kwirl » Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:31 am

actually i have medical training, i was a firefighter for some time, and im a certified EMT technician. anyway, my better half is more adamantly opposed than i had expected, and has made it clear that i am better suited abandoning any concerns in humanitarian efforts, foreign or domestic.

back to the couch, at her whim!

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