Canada, who's goin' with me?!

[teflor the ranger]

It's call an entry level job. Most people in my decentlly sized town don't even make 18k per year...so that's quite a step up concidering the value of the canadian dollar these days. I'd also be going to school full time...so yeah, I am aiming high. Read the post, soak it in, save ignorant comments to yourself so you don't get embarassed.

30k is pretty good for Canada, where there are no jobs and mass unemployement (one of the major employeers there is Ford). You know, the country that's better for Kifle than America.

[Kifle]

So true...but while it's not impossible, there is a very very small percentage of hard workers that actually do get ahead. It's at most a false hope and shouldn't be relied upon. Also, if the republicans had their way, there would be no helping hands.

I'm very sorry, but I see no reason why that statement would be true. A republican president, house, and senate approved funding for government programs in assistance for education, minorities, welfare, etc.

Also, the helping hands I spoke of aren't necessarily governmental. They can be faith-based, (gatherings from church congregations), community assitance programs, scholarships, Bill Gates Foundation, a whole host of other hands that have always been there for Americans.

The administration now is trying to make it harder to get secondary education funding. They have taken away quite a bit of money from the public education system. It's so bad that the school my two oldest kids go to can't afford to teach social studies because they have no books.

[Kifle]

It's call an entry level job. Most people in my decentlly sized town don't even make 18k per year...so that's quite a step up concidering the value of the canadian dollar these days. I'd also be going to school full time...so yeah, I am aiming high. Read the post, soak it in, save ignorant comments to yourself so you don't get embarassed.

30k is pretty good for Canada, where there are no jobs and mass unemployement (one of the major employeers there is Ford). You know, the country that's better for Kifle than America.

Again, entry level position. The same job in america pays 7.50/hr with no benefits...or something very close to that. i don't know, ask arilin how much he makes. From 7.50 an hour w/no benefits, roughlly 14k/yr, to 30k/yr + benefits I'd say that's actually quite a step up. America isn't the only country that is livable you know. Don't be so arrogant.

[teflor the ranger]

in america pays 7.50/hr with no benefits...

30k/yr + benefits I'd say that's actually quite a step up.

So the same Job is much more competetive and pays better in Canada. Does this say something about their education system, and the availability of trained employees?

I'm not being arrogant, just reading in between the lines.

[Lalsed]

I hope that leaving the country is not the general action taken by someone when their candidate loses. Why don't we just throw out Democracy out the window, the reason for a vote is so the majority of the populus is represented by whom they feel would be best for the country. The power is in the hands of the people, wether stupid or not. If you can't stand someone losing an election in a democratic society, go live where there is no vote. Don't complain just because someone you favorered lost, although you do have that right, so go ahead I suppose. I have alot of respect for both candidates for being able to run for President, and especially for John Kerry to be able to know when he had lost, and to still commit to making America better, not leaving. Hopefully all of us can commit to that, wether Democrat or Republican.

[muma]

No, this just means that the majority of the American populace are very ignorant. Seriously, how many average americans reallly understand economics to a degree that would be necessary to understand both party's stances? How many of the average American's have ever used empathy to formulate an opinion on things such as socialized medicine or war? Not many.

Economics is not politics.

the president does not control the economy.

yes, i do think most people are ignorant but not you Kifle. I think you're very intelligent, but i also think you're very young. Sure, i am too, younger than you by 3 years.

Also, it's a shame that your dad is having trouble finding work. It never _is_ easy. Sometimes having the right credentials isn't enough.

you mentioned fairness. Since when is life fair? feh, if it was, then it'd be boring. suffering brings strength, if you deal with your problems that is.

America is a very tough and competitive society. I like it that way though, because I believe in survival of the fittest. If you're too weak to make it, then you really don't have many options, except to be crushed.

[Iaiken Toransier]

30k is pretty good for Canada, where there are no jobs and mass unemployement (one of the major employeers there is Ford). You know, the country that's better for Kifle than America.

I don't wanna know what buttf***idaho parts of Canada you visited, but I live in an area where the AVERAGE income is $164k/year. I live 4 blocks from the Vice pres of Microsoft, who is selling his house for near 4 mil if any of you affluent mudders are interested.

Even my home town (only 12k people in the middle of nowhere) had an average income of 59k... of course, since there was nothing to do there, it also has one of the highest drug densities in all of canada as well.

Canada has the most highly educated workforce in the world our average national average income is 60,500 per household AFTER getting dinged for 59%(averaged including sales tax) taxes by the government.

Of course, the avgs for Ontario and BC are both higher than the avgs for meritime provinces that actually do have a marginally large unemployment rate.

Thanks for comming out, but no thanks.

[Imis9]

Feh, but took Americans to take apart hockey! :)

Little joke

[Kifle]

No, this just means that the majority of the American populace are very ignorant. Seriously, how many average americans reallly understand economics to a degree that would be necessary to understand both party's stances? How many of the average American's have ever used empathy to formulate an opinion on things such as socialized medicine or war? Not many.

Economics is not politics.

the president does not control the economy.

yes, i do think most people are ignorant but not you Kifle. I think you're very intelligent, but i also think you're very young. Sure, i am too, younger than you by 3 years.

Also, it's a shame that your dad is having trouble finding work. It never _is_ easy. Sometimes having the right credentials isn't enough.

you mentioned fairness. Since when is life fair? feh, if it was, then it'd be boring. suffering brings strength, if you deal with your problems that is.

America is a very tough and competitive society. I like it that way though, because I believe in survival of the fittest. If you're too weak to make it, then you really don't have many options, except to be crushed.

Right, econ is not polotics, but polotics is economics. Also, while the president doesn't necessarily control the economy, his actions, the actions of his administrations, and the actions of his party unfortunately do.

You are also right, life isn't fair, muma. That's the point I'm trying to get across to imis. It doesn't matter how hard you work or how much education you have or what you do, life is not fair. Some people will just fail and there is not much we as citizens can do about it in the majority of the time.

As far as it being survival of the fittest, in a sense you are right, but that will only take you so far. It's also survival of the priviledged and lucky.

[Kifle]

in america pays 7.50/hr with no benefits...

30k/yr + benefits I'd say that's actually quite a step up.

So the same Job is much more competetive and pays better in Canada. Does this say something about their education system, and the availability of trained employees?

I'm not being arrogant, just reading in between the lines.

No, it means, on average, canadian workers are paid better. That specific job is available to highschool graduates. You get training on the job. This is one of their "no brainer" jobs that anybody can get. It would equicicate to a factory job in the US only it pays twice as much and has benefits...read what I wrote and don't pay attention to the lines...they will get you nowhere.

[Imis9]

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts."
-- Sir Winston Churchill


I understand that people can fail, but real people fail and then get up and keep trying. If someone fails and refuses to really try or makes their situation worse, why is it society or even my problem? What benefit is to anyone to have someone on welfare for the long term? Hell, if the trouble is someone doesn't have connections, go out there and make them. Go volunteer and join some committees on charities. Network within your community to build yourself a job search. I'm getting off topic, but yes, things aren't easy, but who would want them to be? Everything is possible if you want it bad enough.

"Results! Why, man, I have gotten a lot of results. I know several thousand things that won't work."
-- Thomas A. Edison

[Kifle]

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts."
-- Sir Winston Churchill


I understand that people can fail, but real people fail and then get up and keep trying. If someone fails and refuses to really try or makes their situation worse, why is it society or even my problem? What benefit is to anyone to have someone on welfare for the long term? Hell, if the trouble is someone doesn't have connections, go out there and make them. Go volunteer and join some committees on charities. Network within your community to build yourself a job search. I'm getting off topic, but yes, things aren't easy, but who would want them to be? Everything is possible if you want it bad enough.

"Results! Why, man, I have gotten a lot of results. I know several thousand things that won't work."
-- Thomas A. Edison

Yeah, anyway, uh, my father is still trying. He has yet to succeed. Again, if you have any miracle tips for me to hand to him, I'd be more than willing to accept them. Your philosophy is an ideal and has virtually no real world application.

[Imis9]

I wish there was a miracle tip.


"The secret of success is this: there is no secret of success."
-- Elbert Hubbard

[teflor the ranger]

No, it means, on average, canadian workers are paid better. That specific job is available to highschool graduates. You get training on the job. This is one of their "no brainer" jobs that anybody can get. It would equicicate to a factory job in the US only it pays twice as much and has benefits...read what I wrote and don't pay attention to the lines...they will get you nowhere.

Union workers in America do quite well. What industry is this?

[Kifle]

No, it means, on average, canadian workers are paid better. That specific job is available to highschool graduates. You get training on the job. This is one of their "no brainer" jobs that anybody can get. It would equicicate to a factory job in the US only it pays twice as much and has benefits...read what I wrote and don't pay attention to the lines...they will get you nowhere.

Union workers in America do quite well. What industry is this?

For now they kinda do, but you can't guage all unions by what GM has. I was in a union when I worked at kroger...they did nothing but jack my paycheck. Regardless, do some research and you'll see.

[muma]

Let's apply math to the discussion.
i'm not the best at math (i find it boring), but i think everything can be explained with math.

when you are attempting to solve a problem, one of the things you can do is:

trial and error.
or if you already know and understand a formula. then you don't need to do trial and error.

people that are born with privileges, have everything set up for them. they have the formulas.

people who start at the bottom, have to use trial and error.

you can't get it done if you don't do it right.

[Kifle]

Let's apply math to the discussion.
i'm not the best at math (i find it boring), but i think everything can be explained with math.

when you are attempting to solve a problem, one of the things you can do is:

trial and error.
or if you already know and understand a formula. then you don't need to do trial and error.

people that are born with privileges, have everything set up for them. they have the formulas.

people who start at the bottom, have to use trial and error.

you can't get it done if you don't do it right.

And if you know anything about math, you will understand that when you get up there trial and error doesn't work...at all. You could spend your entire life trying to find the answer to a diffy q and never get it...ever.

[Dlur]

Part of working hard is working hard at the right job. There's a difference between working hard dumbly and working hard. You say your mom worked to get through college. What kind of degree did she get in college because she should have been able to get a better job. If this is a good job, let's assume she got paid $20 an hour. 40 * 20 = $800 a week. $800 * 52 = $41,600. This isn't great money, and it doesn't take various taxes into consideration. That said, she should've been able to put some cash into a retirement plan.

We all have to take responsiblity for our actions and choices. There's nothing that says you can't get a better job, just have some imagination and some drive. Hard work does get you places, stop whining to justify people's own laziness or lack of inspiration. Lastly, anyone that tries to raise a family on $8 an hour is just plain silly.

You're thinking wages in east coast terms mang. While $20/hr where you live is the minimum to get by, there are a lot of areas where the cost of living is much lower (anywhere but the northeast or the west coast mostly) where $8/hr is very common. In my area in Minnesota there are numerous people who I know personally that raise families on incomes of less than $25,000 a year. I know a couple of guys who make maybe $19,000 a year (judging by that I used to have their job many years ago) that raise a small family as the only breadwinner. The media wage in my area is likely around $32,000 meaning that there's a heck of a lot of people making a lot less than that. Hell, my parents struggled for quite a while when both of them ran their own small businesses in a small (700 pop.) town. But they forged through it, improved their businesses, sold them off and got nice cushy jobs and live very comfortably after having put 2 kids through college, and all without the help of the goverment as far as I know.

[teflor the ranger]

Part of working hard is working hard at the right job. There's a difference between working hard dumbly and working hard. You say your mom worked to get through college. What kind of degree did she get in college because she should have been able to get a better job. If this is a good job, let's assume she got paid $20 an hour. 40 * 20 = $800 a week. $800 * 52 = $41,600. This isn't great money, and it doesn't take various taxes into consideration. That said, she should've been able to put some cash into a retirement plan.

We all have to take responsiblity for our actions and choices. There's nothing that says you can't get a better job, just have some imagination and some drive. Hard work does get you places, stop whining to justify people's own laziness or lack of inspiration. Lastly, anyone that tries to raise a family on $8 an hour is just plain silly.

You're thinking wages in east coast terms mang. While $20/hr where you live is the minimum to get by, there are a lot of areas where the cost of living is much lower (anywhere but the northeast or the west coast mostly) where $8/hr is very common. In my area in Minnesota there are numerous people who I know personally that raise families on incomes of less than $25,000 a year. I know a couple of guys who make maybe $19,000 a year (judging by that I used to have their job many years ago) that raise a small family as the only breadwinner. The media wage in my area is likely around $32,000 meaning that there's a heck of a lot of people making a lot less than that. Hell, my parents struggled for quite a while when both of them ran their own small businesses in a small (700 pop.) town. But they forged through it, improved their businesses, sold them off and got nice cushy jobs and live very comfortably after having put 2 kids through college, and all without the help of the goverment as far as I know.

A safe, reliable car costs the same east coast or west texas. Same thing with educational goods such as computers, internet access, etc. Same thing with shoes and clothing, consumer goods and services.

The cost of living isn't that much lower in rural areas. Particularly if you would like to live as well as people do on the east coast or cushy californians.

[Dlur]

A safe, reliable car costs the same east coast or west texas. Same thing with educational goods such as computers, internet access, etc. Same thing with shoes and clothing, consumer goods and services.

The cost of living isn't that much lower in rural areas. Particularly if you would like to live as well as people do on the east coast or cushy californians.

Actually, a safe reliable car does cost less where I live than in CA for sure. In CA there are stringent emissions guidlines and regulations that raise the cost of anything that has an internal combustion engine in it, significantly more-so for automobiles, but also for little stuff like lawn mowers, leaf blowers, weed-eaters and the like.

Also the cost of housing has to be figured in to the cost of living equation. Here in my town you can get a nice house for $60-80k. In my parent's town 25 miles away you can get a VERY nice house for $40k. In New York, Boston, LA or Seatle for that house that costs $40k in my parent's town you'd likely pay closer to $300k and possibly upwards of $500k depending on location in some exclusive coastal areas. Don't think that there's not a big difference between a mortgage for $40k and $300k on a monthly basis. And if you look at rental costs, you can get a very nice 2 bedroom appartment in my area for $300 per month including most utilities. In NYC $300 per month gets you a cardboard box located on a dingy street corner with a hole in the roof and a homeless guy for a roomate that smells of cheap gin and urine. Parking, of course, is $1k per month extra.

[teflor the ranger]

A safe, reliable car costs the same east coast or west texas. Same thing with educational goods such as computers, internet access, etc. Same thing with shoes and clothing, consumer goods and services.

The cost of living isn't that much lower in rural areas. Particularly if you would like to live as well as people do on the east coast or cushy californians.

Actually, a safe reliable car does cost less where I live than in CA for sure. In CA there are stringent emissions guidlines and regulations that raise the cost of anything that has an internal combustion engine in it, significantly more-so for automobiles, but also for little stuff like lawn mowers, leaf blowers, weed-eaters and the like.

Also the cost of housing has to be figured in to the cost of living equation. Here in my town you can get a nice house for $60-80k. In my parent's town 25 miles away you can get a VERY nice house for $40k. In New York, Boston, LA or Seatle for that house that costs $40k in my parent's town you'd likely pay closer to $300k and possibly upwards of $500k depending on location in some exclusive coastal areas. Don't think that there's not a big difference between a mortgage for $40k and $300k on a monthly basis. And if you look at rental costs, you can get a very nice 2 bedroom appartment in my area for $300 per month including most utilities. In NYC $300 per month gets you a cardboard box located on a dingy street corner with a hole in the roof and a homeless guy for a roomate that smells of cheap gin and urine. Parking, of course, is $1k per month extra.

*sigh* I was hoping to avoid the housing costs.

Hell, a decent house around here hits around $700,000 and that's for something 25+ years old.

Also, most vehicles sold in the US are already california emissions standards compliant, or sell packages that can get the vehicles there for less than $400 (mostly computer tweaking to make it use less gas and have less power).

[Dlur]

*sigh* I was hoping to avoid the housing costs.

Hell, a decent house around here hits around $700,000 and that's for something 25+ years old.

Also, most vehicles sold in the US are already california emissions standards compliant, or sell packages that can get the vehicles there for less than $400 (mostly computer tweaking to make it use less gas and have less power).

Exactly, all the facts. For $700k in my area you could get...er well you couldn't get anything actually because the single most expensive house in my town sold for $453k to the CEO of a large local corporation that was moved in from FL to head up the company. The house makes about 65% of the houses they show on MTV Cribs look like shacks. This house sits in a development where perhaps the cheapest home in that area is $250k.

Sure you can get your car CA compliant for $400, or you can buy a car for $500 in MN and drive it until it stops running anymore and buy another $500 car. It won't be much to look at, but most cars usually run reasonably well right up until the time they die a horrible death. For what I pay in loan costs and insurance to drive my '99 Blazer I could have bought hundreds of $500 cars and had demolition derbies with them for shits and giggles. I can tell you that routine maintenance is going to cost more in CA also since if your muffler or catalytic converter fails you will be replacing it or suffering fines. Here, it doesn't really matter so much other than it being loud.

Another thing to remember is that since the median income is lower you can get services for less. So where it might cost say $50 to get your lawn mowed in some of the more expensive areas, it only costs about $15 here.

Hell, if you're making $75k a year in my area you can probably afford a 5 bedroom house and a drive a Caddy or an H2. I think last I checked there are 5 H2s and 3 original Hummers in my town of less than 20,000 people, not to mention the guy who has a Lambo whose only job in the last 25 years is to run a wedding DJ service...chew on that for a while.

[Ambar]

my ex just got boned hard (hahahahahahaha) ... paying 122k for a 1100 sq foot *fixer upper* house ... which is pretty typical in this area ..

yeah prices are different all over :P (check gas prices anyone?)

[Sarvis]

Hard work gets you nowhere. Government handouts, derived from the sweat of those who work hard (and the ebil corporations!) will get you somewhere!

Corth.

Shut up you ignorant moron.

[Sarvis]

Part of working hard is working hard at the right job. There's a difference between working hard dumbly and working hard. You say your mom worked to get through college. What kind of degree did she get in college because she should have been able to get a better job. If this is a good job, let's assume she got paid $20 an hour. 40 * 20 = $800 a week. $800 * 52 = $41,600. This isn't great money, and it doesn't take various taxes into consideration. That said, she should've been able to put some cash into a retirement plan.

I'm not going to go into her entire history here, but you originally stated that working hard would get you ahead. This is blatanty false, so false that you just had to modify it to working hard at <i>the right job</i> would get you ahead.

That is even debateable.

Not to mention that, as I believe others have pointed out, working "smart" means being very highly prescient or having rich relatives to put you on the right path.

Whether Paris Hilton has worked hard or not is debateable, but do you think she'd have half the opportunities she's had without her father being a hotel tycoon?

No.

Do you think the most unbelievably hot woman in the world would have Paris Hilton's chances if born to my family? Probably not, she'd depend entirely on luck to get discovered.

We all have to take responsiblity for our actions and choices. There's nothing that says you can't get a better job, just have some imagination and some drive. Hard work does get you places, stop whining to justify people's own laziness or lack of inspiration. Lastly, anyone that tries to raise a family on $8 an hour is just plain silly.

Some people don't have a <i>choice</i> in the matter you idiot. The fact that you dismiss such problems so easily shows you are not fit to making ANY decision about these issues.

Many people can't get something better than $8/hr. Hell, with my degree in computer science the best I've found is $9/hr as a temp without benefits! What is your average high school graduate who thought he'd be able to make a decent living in manufacturing and already has kids supposed to do when he gets laid off?

I try not to feel sorry for folks because that just reinforces their own victimization. Instead, I try to help folks rebuild their lives and actually make them better.

An interesting statement, considering that is exactly what welfare is supposed to be for!

Yes, it is currently implemented badly. But just getting rid of the safety net so many find themselves depending on is NOT a good thing, it is the exact opposite of what you just said you try to do.

My own thoughts are that welfare should provide job training and placement to actually help people out, rather than expect people to somehow work themselves back up with almost no resources. Of course, there would have to be some checks on that... I think they do this in some places and end up sending single mothers on two hour bus rides to work for minimum wage. This is very bad in my opinion, since you end up with kids raising themselves and under... well, under-everythinged.

[Sarvis]

You poor bastards...

*sigh*

No matter who won people on the other side were bound to be dissapointed, there's no use in complaining about it after the fact anyhow.

That's not true really. Well, not for me anyway. I'd be fine if Badnarik won despite my problems with libertarian ideology, same with Greens or Nader.

I just can't stomach that BUSH won.

For those of you who question government regulation of corporations, auto insurance companies in north america posted a profit of 627% over last year. Yet that wasn't a popular issue, however government intervention would have helped make a noticable difference for millions of americans.

Yeah, and yet people think Libertarian ideals are logical. Can you cite some sources on that for my future arguments with libertarians?

As for the bible thumpers, it can be contested that there are democrats who vote democrat just because they always have, or because thier parents did and so forth. Not the most educated way to form an oppinion, but a vote's a vote.

True, and sad. :(

Anywho, at the current trend, the Canadian dollar should hit par with the US dollar before bushes next term is out. It's up to $0.8219 US since bush took office, that's a gain of more than 20 cents since Bush took office.

So I guess moving to Canada is getting better and better looking.

And the women here are hot, they balance out the frigidity of the winter.

I can personally vouch for the hotness of Canadian women... well, at least for their strippers. ;)

[Disoputlip]

To Kifle:

You don't want aristocracy. The reason you don't want it can be read in the book by Plato called "The Republic"

I don't think the one-liner politicians will stay forever. Right now you have them in many many countries though. The only thing that scares me is that Hitler, with the phrase "Hitler or Chaos". Gave the germans a strong leadership 60 years ago because they actually wanted to be lead. The single biggest difference between now and then is the UN. This is why it troubles me when the UN's recommondations are 100% ignored. The other extreme is Marx. Das Kapital founded ideas about a total economy, and Marx came into power with the totally opposite approach, and was a total flop.

And read the bible:
The First Book of Samuel [8:6]: Give us a king to judge us....


To the person asking about jobs in Denmark:

Denmark is not really in need of IT-labor. Unless you are skilled on an expert level (university professor).

On the other hand. Britan, especially London-based IT companies are having trouble finding qualified employees. Your seach could start there.

[Sarvis]

To Kifle:

You don't want aristocracy. The reason you don't want it can be read in the book by Plato called "The Republic"

I don't think the one-liner politicians will stay forever. Right now you have them in many many countries though. The only thing that scares me is that Hitler, with the phrase "Hitler or Chaos". Gave the germans a strong leadership 60 years ago because they actually wanted to be lead. The single biggest difference between now and then is the UN. This is why it troubles me when the UN's recommondations are 100% ignored. The other extreme is Marx. Das Kapital founded ideas about a total economy, and Marx came into power with the totally opposite approach, and was a total flop.

And read the bible:
The First Book of Samuel [8:6]: Give us a king to judge us....


To the person asking about jobs in Denmark:

Denmark is not really in need of IT-labor. Unless you are skilled on an expert level (university professor).

On the other hand. Britan, especially London-based IT companies are having trouble finding qualified employees. Your seach could start there.

But English women aren't really that hot. ;)

Plus you made Denmark sound so good... hehe.

STill have no idea how to search for jobs in other countries though... :(

[Disoputlip]

It was daggaz that made the country sound cool. I'm just a native here.

[teflor the ranger]

*sigh* I was hoping to avoid the housing costs.

Hell, a decent house around here hits around $700,000 and that's for something 25+ years old.

Also, most vehicles sold in the US are already california emissions standards compliant, or sell packages that can get the vehicles there for less than $400 (mostly computer tweaking to make it use less gas and have less power).

Exactly, all the facts. For $700k in my area you could get...er well you couldn't get anything actually because the single most expensive house in my town sold for $453k to the CEO of a large local corporation that was moved in from FL to head up the company. The house makes about 65% of the houses they show on MTV Cribs look like shacks. This house sits in a development where perhaps the cheapest home in that area is $250k.

Sure you can get your car CA compliant for $400, or you can buy a car for $500 in MN and drive it until it stops running anymore and buy another $500 car. It won't be much to look at, but most cars usually run reasonably well right up until the time they die a horrible death. For what I pay in loan costs and insurance to drive my '99 Blazer I could have bought hundreds of $500 cars and had demolition derbies with them for shits and giggles. I can tell you that routine maintenance is going to cost more in CA also since if your muffler or catalytic converter fails you will be replacing it or suffering fines. Here, it doesn't really matter so much other than it being loud.

Another thing to remember is that since the median income is lower you can get services for less. So where it might cost say $50 to get your lawn mowed in some of the more expensive areas, it only costs about $15 here.

Hell, if you're making $75k a year in my area you can probably afford a 5 bedroom house and a drive a Caddy or an H2. I think last I checked there are 5 H2s and 3 original Hummers in my town of less than 20,000 people, not to mention the guy who has a Lambo whose only job in the last 25 years is to run a wedding DJ service...chew on that for a while.

I find that if people really want something, in any situation, they can usually find a way to get what they want. Particularly after 25 years of running around DJ'in weddings. A $500 car is not exactly the "safe car" that I was originally speaking about, as I'm sure everyone else in America would prefer your '99 Blazer for transporting their family, and as a vehicle to rely upon, rather than getting them stuck in the middle of the highway.

Also, in many states, cars must pass a safety inspection in order to transfer a title and obtain a license plate. $500 usually won't cut it. All states also require mufflers and catalytic converters as a part of a national standard (except for like, north dakota, but that's about it).

Indeed, you could live where I live, make only $75k/year and drive a Hummer H2 or a nice new Caddy. The cost of living can be mantained at a relatively even keel through finding a way to do it.

You can own a $700k house, if you bought it 10 years ago when it was only worth $350k, and take out a 30 year loan, rather than a 15 year loan, which will cut your monthy payment by about 40%. You could also find properties that are somewhat out of the way, away from major roads in the smaller towns that are blooming in what was once farm fields or woodlands.

Where there's a will, there's a way. All you really need to do is sit down for ten minutes, look at all your options, and plan ahead.

That and put the credit card down. You really don't need that thirteenth pair of shoes.

[Sarvis]

Indeed, you could live where I live, make only $75k/year and drive a Hummer H2 or a nice new Caddy.

ONLY!?!?!

Jesus man, at the height of the .com boom my friends who graduated in CS only got $60K to start!

That and put the credit card down. You really don't need that thirteenth pair of shoes.

Things we've had to use the credit card for this summer:

Plumbers, 3 visits for leaky pipes and one to keep sewer gases out of the house.
Hot water tank, old one was leaking carbon monoxide into the house


Last year: $2000 dollars for my tuition so I could finish my degree.

Some of us are dependant on credit because we can't find jobs which pay enough to live and take care of the things we need to. But at least that $2k tuition wasn't wasted... oh... wait...

[teflor the ranger]

Indeed, you could live where I live, make only $75k/year and drive a Hummer H2 or a nice new Caddy.

ONLY!?!?!

Jesus man, at the height of the .com boom my friends who graduated in CS only got $60K to start!

I was responding to this:

Hell, if you're making $75k a year in my area you can probably afford a 5 bedroom house and a drive a Caddy or an H2.

And of course, credit is a tool that helps people do the things they need to do, but just don't use it for shoes.

[Duna]

*sigh* I was hoping to avoid the housing costs.

Hell, a decent house around here hits around $700,000 and that's for something 25+ years old.

Also, most vehicles sold in the US are already california emissions standards compliant, or sell packages that can get the vehicles there for less than $400 (mostly computer tweaking to make it use less gas and have less power).

Exactly, all the facts. For $700k in my area you could get...er well you couldn't get anything actually because the single most expensive house in my town sold for $453k to the CEO of a large local corporation that was moved in from FL to head up the company. The house makes about 65% of the houses they show on MTV Cribs look like shacks. This house sits in a development where perhaps the cheapest home in that area is $250k.

Sure you can get your car CA compliant for $400, or you can buy a car for $500 in MN and drive it until it stops running anymore and buy another $500 car. It won't be much to look at, but most cars usually run reasonably well right up until the time they die a horrible death. For what I pay in loan costs and insurance to drive my '99 Blazer I could have bought hundreds of $500 cars and had demolition derbies with them for shits and giggles. I can tell you that routine maintenance is going to cost more in CA also since if your muffler or catalytic converter fails you will be replacing it or suffering fines. Here, it doesn't really matter so much other than it being loud.

Another thing to remember is that since the median income is lower you can get services for less. So where it might cost say $50 to get your lawn mowed in some of the more expensive areas, it only costs about $15 here.

Hell, if you're making $75k a year in my area you can probably afford a 5 bedroom house and a drive a Caddy or an H2. I think last I checked there are 5 H2s and 3 original Hummers in my town of less than 20,000 people, not to mention the guy who has a Lambo whose only job in the last 25 years is to run a wedding DJ service...chew on that for a while.

I find that if people really want something, in any situation, they can usually find a way to get what they want. Particularly after 25 years of running around DJ'in weddings. A $500 car is not exactly the "safe car" that I was originally speaking about, as I'm sure everyone else in America would prefer your '99 Blazer for transporting their family, and as a vehicle to rely upon, rather than getting them stuck in the middle of the highway.

Also, in many states, cars must pass a safety inspection in order to transfer a title and obtain a license plate. $500 usually won't cut it. All states also require mufflers and catalytic converters as a part of a national standard (except for like, north dakota, but that's about it).

Indeed, you could live where I live, make only $75k/year and drive a Hummer H2 or a nice new Caddy. The cost of living can be mantained at a relatively even keel through finding a way to do it.

You can own a $700k house, if you bought it 10 years ago when it was only worth $350k, and take out a 30 year loan, rather than a 15 year loan, which will cut your monthy payment by about 40%. You could also find properties that are somewhat out of the way, away from major roads in the smaller towns that are blooming in what was once farm fields or woodlands.

Where there's a will, there's a way. All you really need to do is sit down for ten minutes, look at all your options, and plan ahead.

That and put the credit card down. You really don't need that thirteenth pair of shoes.

Yes where there's a will, there's a way. But alot has to do with the cost of living and what is looked at as minimum wages in yer area..
The couple I was talking about, whereever that post went :), she makes $7/hr. working 30 hrs./wk. He makes about $8/hr. at one job, 35 hrs./wk. and $6/hr. about 15-20 hrs./wk. at the other.. they don't own thier home, they rent for 650/month plus they pay electric, gas, water and sewage. the only other bill they have is for their phone. They both drive older cars, he does the work needed on them himself.. well they pay insurance and plates on the cars. They don't have credit cards, they don't even have a checking account. Cost of living is a bit pricey here because we have 3 big factories. 2 Diamlerchrysler plants and a Delphi plant. I know that the Chrysler guys make around 50K/year, and that's just the guys that work the lines, I've no clue what the supervisors make or anything like that...
So that does influence the cost of living around here..every year there are papers sent home for the school system that gives a guideline as to what you have to earn under to get reduced price meals for yer kids as well as a break on the cost of textbooks.. for a family of 3 if you don't make 33K/year you're eligible.. Okay, I've rambled enough :)

[Sarvis]

Indeed, you could live where I live, make only $75k/year and drive a Hummer H2 or a nice new Caddy.

ONLY!?!?!

Jesus man, at the height of the .com boom my friends who graduated in CS only got $60K to start!

I was responding to this:

Hell, if you're making $75k a year in my area you can probably afford a 5 bedroom house and a drive a Caddy or an H2.

And of course, credit is a tool that helps people do the things they need to do, but just don't use it for shoes.

Maybe, but she's had to do that all her life and is deeply in debt. I don't carry even a small portion of the debt she does, and it terrifies me...

Currently attempting to pay off all of it, but being hampered by things such as the muffler falling off my car. :(

[teflor the ranger]

Maybe, but she's had to do that all her life and is deeply in debt. I don't carry even a small portion of the debt she does, and it terrifies me...

Currently attempting to pay off all of it, but being hampered by things such as the muffler falling off my car. :(

Well, you have a very valid point here, about those who are currently suffering from excessive debt.

My only suggestion is that if you own Real Property (real estate), is to check out the taxes you are paying for your home, and see what the value of your land is. If you owe less than the value of the home, you might want to try refinancing with an equity line, and use that to pay off the higher interest sources of debt that you have.
Play the shuffle game. move your debt around to where you can best take care of it.

Beyond that there is not much real help in avoiding debt. The last ditch would be to have her declare bankruptcy. It'll goof her credit for seven years, but can be a tremendous life saver.

As for your muffler falling off, find out if buying the parts yourself would save you any money. Often times all this requires is making a few phone calls. (I'm only giving this advice as a mechanic.)

Debt is like any other trap, you've got to fight your way out with everything you've got.

[Sarvis]

Well, you have a very valid point here, about those who are currently suffering from excessive debt.

My only suggestion is that if you own Real Property (real estate), is to check out the taxes you are paying for your home, and see what the value of your land is. If you owe less than the value of the home, you might want to try refinancing with an equity line, and use that to pay off the higher interest sources of debt that you have.

She actually just took out a home equity loan to repair the foundation, because she pretty much expects the house to collapse soon if she doesn't.

I have nothing whatsoever, except my computer and my car which have both probably depreciated to about the same value by now. ;)

Beyond that there is not much real help in avoiding debt. The last ditch would be to have her declare bankruptcy. It'll goof her credit for seven years, but can be a tremendous life saver.

Frankly I don't understand why she doesn't. Frankly, I don't understand why I don't either...

As for your muffler falling off, find out if buying the parts yourself would save you any money. Often times all this requires is making a few phone calls. (I'm only giving this advice as a mechanic.)
.

Do you mean repair it myself also? 'Cause I'm NOT a mechanic... heh.

[teflor the ranger]

You know, declaring bankruptcy doesn't mean that you won't pay your debts, just that you can't do it as well as they would like you to.

[Sarvis]

You know, declaring bankruptcy doesn't mean that you won't pay your debts, just that you can't do it as well as they would like you to.

That depends on what version of bankruptcy you use...

One does wipe away all your debts, and the other just garnishes your wages doesn't it? the problem with the second form is that I'd be in debt _longer_ than if I paid them off myself at my current salary on my own strict terms. Of course, if I lose my job (it's a temp job so they can basically drop me without notice whenever they want for any reason they want) then my plan is kind of screwed...

Of course, the real race is to pay this off within 1.5 years when I run out of economic hardship deferments for my student loans... at which point there is no way in hell I can afford payments on both student loans and credit cards. :(

[Shar]

...And of course, credit is a tool that helps people do the things they need to do, but just don't use it for shoes.

doh, but why? sigh. my plans are entirely foiled. meddling rangers!

[Kifle]

You know, declaring bankruptcy doesn't mean that you won't pay your debts, just that you can't do it as well as they would like you to.

That depends on what version of bankruptcy you use...

One does wipe away all your debts, and the other just garnishes your wages doesn't it? the problem with the second form is that I'd be in debt _longer_ than if I paid them off myself at my current salary on my own strict terms. Of course, if I lose my job (it's a temp job so they can basically drop me without notice whenever they want for any reason they want) then my plan is kind of screwed...

Of course, the real race is to pay this off within 1.5 years when I run out of economic hardship deferments for my student loans... at which point there is no way in hell I can afford payments on both student loans and credit cards. :(

Chapter 7 is the one that will clear your slate. Most often you get to keep your house and car. Anything else is left up to grabs by the appointed trustee. Chapter 13 doesn't necessarily garnish your wages either. You work out a payment plan with your creditors and they can sometimes shave part of your debt away...this is done so the filing party does not go chapter 7 :) A nice use of bankruptcy that you may want to check into sometime, sarvis, is to file and put a hold on your payments. What you can then do is cancel the bankruptcy before you hit your court date. This will usually give you 1-2 months time to save and get back on your feet. Just make sure to file chapter 13 when you do this because you want to save the good one for when you really need it :)

[Imis9]

Part of working hard is working hard at the right job. There's a difference between working hard dumbly and working hard. You say your mom worked to get through college. What kind of degree did she get in college because she should have been able to get a better job. If this is a good job, let's assume she got paid $20 an hour. 40 * 20 = $800 a week. $800 * 52 = $41,600. This isn't great money, and it doesn't take various taxes into consideration. That said, she should've been able to put some cash into a retirement plan.

I'm not going to go into her entire history here, but you originally stated that working hard would get you ahead. This is blatanty false, so false that you just had to modify it to working hard at <i>the right job</i> would get you ahead.

That is even debateable.

Not to mention that, as I believe others have pointed out, working "smart" means being very highly prescient or having rich relatives to put you on the right path.

Whether Paris Hilton has worked hard or not is debateable, but do you think she'd have half the opportunities she's had without her father being a hotel tycoon?

No.

Do you think the most unbelievably hot woman in the world would have Paris Hilton's chances if born to my family? Probably not, she'd depend entirely on luck to get discovered.

We all have to take responsiblity for our actions and choices. There's nothing that says you can't get a better job, just have some imagination and some drive. Hard work does get you places, stop whining to justify people's own laziness or lack of inspiration. Lastly, anyone that tries to raise a family on $8 an hour is just plain silly.

Some people don't have a <i>choice</i> in the matter you idiot. The fact that you dismiss such problems so easily shows you are not fit to making ANY decision about these issues.

Many people can't get something better than $8/hr. Hell, with my degree in computer science the best I've found is $9/hr as a temp without benefits! What is your average high school graduate who thought he'd be able to make a decent living in manufacturing and already has kids supposed to do when he gets laid off?

I try not to feel sorry for folks because that just reinforces their own victimization. Instead, I try to help folks rebuild their lives and actually make them better.

An interesting statement, considering that is exactly what welfare is supposed to be for!

Yes, it is currently implemented badly. But just getting rid of the safety net so many find themselves depending on is NOT a good thing, it is the exact opposite of what you just said you try to do.

My own thoughts are that welfare should provide job training and placement to actually help people out, rather than expect people to somehow work themselves back up with almost no resources. Of course, there would have to be some checks on that... I think they do this in some places and end up sending single mothers on two hour bus rides to work for minimum wage. This is very bad in my opinion, since you end up with kids raising themselves and under... well, under-everythinged.

Well, I've decided that this is hopeless and clearly not representative of America. Sarvis, keep believing the liberal side, and I'm sure it will get you far. I believe that most Americans don't side with true morons though, so I know you'll always be on the losing side.

[Sarvis]

<b>Imis9</b>

Hey man, I can't help it if you contradicted yourself there. No reason to be such a sore loser and give up like this.

YOU'RE the one who has been tricked into thinking Reaganomics was a good thing, when it has always failed and worsened the economy.

Money naturally drifts upwards anyway, why put it at the top to start exactly?










On the lighter side, I think I found out how to get into Canda: http://www.marryanamerican.ca/

[Imis9]

Snort, Reagan is actually one of my heroes. I've simply decided you're beneath me and not worth me bothering with, quite honestly.

[Sarvis]

Snort, Reagan is actually one of my heroes. I've simply decided you're beneath me and not worth me bothering with, quite honestly.

Why am I not surprised?

And yes, I'm sure I AM beneath you. After all I'm not rich so I certainly can't be better than you!

[Imis9]

"Money doesn't make you happy. I now have $50 million but I was just as happy when I had $48 million."
-- Arnold Schwarzenegger

[Sarvis]

"Money doesn't make you happy. I now have $50 million but I was just as happy when I had $48 million."
-- Arnold Schwarzenegger

Well then he shouldn't mind giving up two million more in taxes to keep some single mother's kid from starving to death, should he?

[Corth]

Thats kind of the reason why the hollywood liberals are liberals. They have dozens of millions and can't see why it matters if the government takes an extra 20% or so. The conventional wisdom that republicans are rich and democrats are poor is bunk. The Republican base is the middle class. Democrat base are minorities (taken for granted, year after year), the very young (naive), the very old (dependent on handouts), and the very rich (out of touch).

Corth

[Elisten]

I think it's supposed to snow tomorrow. Dangit.

[Vigis]

I had promised myself that I would read through the whole thread, but I got real tired real quick.

Want to try making/responding to a point or two.

As to outsourcing manufacturing jobs:

Manufacturing jobs in the U.S. are dead. Mexico will put thing together faster and cheaper than we will (amazingly enough, so will Canada). Before I get slammed for this one, I'd like to say that I work in the trucking industry. . .I see more finished products coming out of Mexico or Canada than the U.S.

Why does the educated and highly qualified person have trouble finding a job? Most likely it is the same reason I wasn't able to find one when I moved. . .I didn't have one. It is much easier to decide if a person is going to fit a position if they already have a job. The problem is that too many Americans are too proud to take a worthless job. That worthless job doesn't help you, doesn't pay enough to support your family, but it does show that you are willing to make a sacrifice and be loyal. I've done it, I know people who have done it. . .screw your pride, nobody cares about you as a person and nobody cares about your pride, an employer only cares about what you can bring them. If you worked for $3.45/hr for somebody and stayed working there for 9 months, they are going to consider you. Honestly, I am not here to give job advice. . .the major point is coming

I am of that coveted minority of voters who actually weigh the issues before casting the vote. I actually look to see what the stance is from a particular candidate.

Why the hell are people talking about going to Canada? It honestly sounds like the most retarded plan I have ever heard. You don't like the leader, you have the power to choose the next leader, you give up that opportunity in order to live in a different country. . .

There is no way of changing the country and its' policies without you. Sure, I can undersand the desire to leave, but it makes you seem like a person who does not believe that individuals can make a difference.

I have more. . .but it will probably all come out in the same type of rambling discourse. I got distracted and bored enough by reading the first part of this thread, I don't want to subject you to the same thing.

Final Note: Change begins with you, I don't need to explain that if you believe somebody in your city can make a difference, they may be able to make a differnece for you state, AND they MIGHT even be able to make a change in the country. Screw your political party, start voting for the people.

Of the people, by the people, for the people. . .

[Sarvis]

First of all, HEY MAN! :)

Why the hell are people talking about going to Canada? It honestly sounds like the most retarded plan I have ever heard. You don't like the leader, you have the power to choose the next leader, you give up that opportunity in order to live in a different country. . .

This is actually not true. You can live in another country and still maintain US citizenship, in fact there are many Americans working overseas in Europe and such and even news stories about how they were planning to vote!

There is no way of changing the country and its' policies without you. Sure, I can undersand the desire to leave, but it makes you seem like a person who does not believe that individuals can make a difference.

My ex-roomate constantly talked of leaving the country, and I defended it for years. I thought people like him and I should fight and try to get better candidates in office...

But seeing what we are up against... how much support Bush has garnered based largely on "moral issues" is just incredibly disheartening.