Terry Shiavo

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
Ambar
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Terry Shiavo

Postby Ambar » Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:04 am

She finally passed away thursday after nearly 14 days without food or water.

what do you folks think?

Makes me want to go check my will (think it says not to keep me alive tho)
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Postby Kifle » Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:59 pm

I do believe in some forms of euthanasia, but I don't really think what happend here was right. However, I don't think that her parents where thinking along the right lines either. Both sides where treating her as property rather than a person, which is just disgusting. I believe that if it isn't in the will, nobody really should have an authority on what to do. Yeah, me and my wife have told each other that we'd never want to be artificially kept alive, so I can see where the husband was coming from, but the courts can't take his word as fact. Who knows what kind of motives he had for doing what he did. Maybe he felt guilty about being remarried. Maybe he was having to pay for her treatment (not sure on this...haven't followed it too much.) As for the parents, I can understand. I would murder the man that made that decision by himself if it came down to my children. However, what they where doing is not healthy. They will never progress if their daughter is laying in a hospital on life-support while not being able to interact with anything.

In the end, who knows whether or not she was suffering? I wouldn't want to be in constant pain (spiritual or physical) and be kept alive artificially. This is just a case of the parents not being able to deal with death and, quite possibly, a husband who cares too little. But I understand both sides.

Anyway, the government needs to make some sort of ruling on the matter of euthanasia if they are going to allow the court system to interject. Leaving a matter like this up to fleeting moments of pros and cons is just rediculous.
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Artificial Life Support

Postby Klandal » Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:52 pm

You do know that Terri was neither terminally ill nor being artificially kept alive, right? All of her vital organs were full functional, the only thing she needed to be kept alive was food and water. If feeding somebody is considered life support, I guess anybody that requires help to eat/drink could have something similar happen to them, which is why so many people are appalled by what happened.

Michael Shiavo wasn't paying for her treatment. He had filed a lawsuit and was awarded 1.3 million dollars to care for her and provide rehabilitation. Unfortunately, almost -none- of the money was used in an effort to rehabilitate her, despite testimony by several doctors and nurses that such efforts were -not- futile and progress could be made. In fact, the majority of the money allotted to her treatment was used by Michael to pay for lawyers and other court costs to end Terri's life, rather ironic in my opinion.

The parents wouldn't let go of their daughter because she was neither on life-support nor was she unable to interact. Not only her parents, but several of her nurses who spent years with her, testified that Terri was able to swallow and had been eating Jello at one point. She also communicated every month during her menstrual cycle that she was in pain. These are not signs of somebody with PVS (Persistent Vegitative State).

The ruling from the courts wasn't that Michael had the right to kill her, they ruled that before the accident Terri said she wouldn't want to be kept alive artificially. This was based solely on Michael's statement that this was something they discussed previously. The reason the feeding tube was pulled related to the supposition that Terri herself was refusing that type of medical treatment based on Michael's statement. The amazing thing was that during the first several years of her condition, -several- nurses heard Michael say he had no clue as to what Terri's wishes would be concerning her state. Only 7 years after her state did he mention suddenly he remembered what she had said regarding it.

It's unfathomable that her death was based solely on hearsay, despite multiple contrary statements of her true wishes. Given he has been living with another woman and fathered two children by her, at the very least it should be considered a serious conflict of interest for Michael to have guardianship of Terri.

The parents were more than willing to care for their daughter AND actually take efforts to rehabilitate her. Michael Shiavo actually ordered nurses and doctors to refrain from doing things that would aid in any rehabilitation, despite being awarded money for that sole purpose. This case is extremely frustrating and I hope it's not a foreshadowing of future events related to Human Rights.
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Postby ssar » Sat Apr 02, 2005 12:41 am

These "right to life" activivists are idiots. Claiming that pulling the plug on cases like this is murder is just f**king stupid and causing totally unnecessary debate and crap.
You see these fools claiming similar crap in abortion debates.

Re: Shiavo, from what I saw her quality of "life" recently was very poor, and it was likely she would have much preferred not to live given understanding of just what a situation she was in.
All the sensationalized arguing and crap that went on between her husband and parents and whoever was just over the top.

All things considered, looks to me like things are better off now that she has passed away. Frees up important significant medical resources for others in need.
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Postby Ruxur » Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:25 am

mogr all i got to say is fuck you and your devaluation of human life.
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Postby Botef » Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:07 am

I really dont know how I would have personally handled a case like this. All Im gonna say is something just doesnt seem right to me about depriving a human of food and water, and essentially forcing them to starve to death regardless of their mental state or condition. Id probably be more receptive to this had it been some more 'humane' form, if you really can call any form of taking anothers life 'humane'.
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Postby Thilindel » Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:29 am

Because of my shotgun understanding of this case I don't know much other than what struck me odd: The 'husband' moved on a LONG time ago, had another woman whom he'd had two children with... It would be ungodly frustrating as a parent to not be able to regain custody from an 'ex' when said 'ex' has moved on. I did my best to not learn more about the case because, right or wrong for trying to sustain their child, I cannot imagine the parents' pain watching their child wither until death.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:11 am

Broken Vows

"to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death do us part."

edited to emphasis.
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Yasden » Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:21 am

A vow is only as good as the person forcing you to make it.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:40 am

Or as good as the person who gives it.
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Postby Thilindel » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:02 am

amen. if you're being 'forced' into a vow, there's no love to start :P
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Postby Yasden » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:06 am

Words mean nothing if they're merely spoken, it's the carrying out of that promise that carries the most weight. I'm married, I should know.

Perhaps she was vaguely responding to certain things, but if she had to be sustained through a tube, then to me, and in the opinions medical community, she was considered vegitative.

Would you want to live like that? For fifteen years?

I don't agree with the way it ended, but it needed to end. "The right to live" means nothing if you're not living your life. I think termination should be a viable option if your physical/mental condition deteriorates so much that you cannot "live" on your own.

I'm also of the mind that this should be applied to pregnancies where the ultrasound has already determined such conditions before the child is even born. Sure, I'm a guy, I don't know what the mother/child bond is like. But I do know how a physically/mentally handicapped child who has to be watched over their entire lives can tear a family apart.

I've got an uncle (wife's) whose daughter is 11, has the mentality of a 3 year old, and will never be able to function as a productive member of society. They were aware of it beforehand, and his wife decided to keep the child. Ironically, she left him later, and he has sole custody of his daughter. He now has to live with something he didn't want to begin with, but kept his vow to his wife.

A living will should be as much the law as registering for Selective Service. You can change it as you need, much like you can your Organ Donor option on your driver's license. If you want to be kept alive in a situation like that, that's your perogative, but don't force someone else to shoulder that burden for you. It's not right to make someone else suffer because you are. I'd never wish that upon any of my family, nor do I want to be a huge financial drain on the state I live in.

A side topic of some relation:

Two weeks ago when I heard the Pope was suffering from respiratory illness, I thought to myself, "he's gonna croak soon." Looks like I might be right in my prediction.

If they keep him alive, it's because they're selfish. The man can barely even speak anymore. If he's as religious as he claims to be, he'll know when "it's his time."

By the by, I detest organized religion. I also detest the way Terri Schaivo's parents so selfishly kept their daughter alive and staring blankly at the world for the past 15 years. She didn't deserve it. I also detest extreme right-wing hypocrites.

That is all.
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:29 am

Ruxur wrote:mogr all i got to say is fuck you and your devaluation of human life.


And exactly what is the value in human life? If it's found in nothing more than respiration we have no more value than mold. The true value of our lives comes from our ability to think, feel, communicate and act. The human value of Schiavo's life was long gone, and could not ever be regained.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:44 am

Sarvis wrote:And exactly what is the value in human life?


$0.69 / day
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:22 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:And exactly what is the value in human life?


$0.69 / day


Actually it's $.10/day... or maybe that's just for starving Africans.
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Postby Ambar » Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:11 pm

Yes, the Pope has passed too ...
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Postby avak » Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:13 pm

I think this was such an unfortunate case because it really confused the issues. I think it is safe to say that many, if not the vast majority, of people feel there is an inherent right to die, if they are very clear about that up front (ie living will). However, in this particular case, that clear directive was missing and has caused all this consternation over who exactly controlled her fate. However, that is a totally separate issue.

My personal belief is that we should all have the right to do what we want in regards to "right to die." If you feel life is so sacred that it should be maintained under any circumstance, make that clear in a living will, but don't try to force that belief on anyone else. A right to die does not imply taking away anyone else's right to live, but taking away the right to die is a mandate for all.

I think that if you looked at Schiavo's brain scans, or read the autopsy report, you'll see that there was nothing left. I would never want to be in that situation; I would have asked to be put under 15 years ago. In all honesty, it actually seems selfish to keep someone like that alive, but that is just a personal observation. This case was about who had the legal right to make that call based on shitty circumstantial evidence and uncalled for national politics.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:36 pm

Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:And exactly what is the value in human life?


$0.69 / day


Actually it's $.10/day... or maybe that's just for starving Africans.


No, 69 cents /day is for the starving Africans. You're thinking about the parody on southpark.
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Postby Elisten » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:00 pm

Kifle wrote: ...if it came down to my children.


I think this is the thing that scares me most. :) Kifle and children? Oh wow!!

*wink*

Anyhow, right or wrong... She shouldn't have been starved to death. That's just wrong and sick.

And the Pope? He's going to be in a much better place. :) Godspeed Karol Wojtyja, Godspeed.

Have a swell day, kids. I'm off to play.. um, well.. WoW! SO!?!!? :)

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Postby Salen » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:35 pm

Shoulda locked the thread while you had the chance.

2 Groups, equally devote in their beliefs, neither will change, both will attack the other as evil, insensitive psycho's.

One group oughta read the Bible, and the other group oughta figure out it allegorical fiction.

However, I don't see any conversatives rallying against King George II taking legal power away from the states (once again). Where are all of you State's Rights folks at... or do the states only get rights when the back the far right?
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:06 pm

Well, I actually only presented that Michael Schiavo broke his wedding vows, and thus had no right to make a decision as a husband.

Custody should have gone to the parents.
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Postby Yasden » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:14 pm

Custody should've gone to the state paying for her medical bills.
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Postby Teshidee » Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:06 pm

If there's something to learn from all this, imo, it's to deal with the thought of one day having to die yourself. and that loved ones will die some day (selfishly hoping they will not die before you do, of course).

give it a good thought, then go to a lawyer and write up a legally approved piece where your exact do's an don'ts are fixated. be aware you can change those at any time if you think you need to. it's good advice, really...

yes, i still have to get one written down myself. easier saying it than doing i guess. must do this soon.
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Postby Jhorr » Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:26 pm

As a physician, I gotta chime in here...

I have had patients who have suffered the type of brain injury that Terri did. Believe me, it's not pretty. When I have had to decide about whether to continue resuscitative efforts for a patient whose heart has stopped, her outcome is something that is best avoided. Sometimes that means stopping the attempt to resuscitate and letting someone die without enduring the horror of PVS.

Her diagnosis was established by medical professionals as PVS. There were lengthy trials in which it was confirmed. The courts also determined that Michael was acting on his wife's behalf in good faith. That her parents disagreed with the diagnosis and their daughter's wishes is unfortunate but the outcome here was appropriate. I think 15 years is enough time to have seen progress if it was indeed happening. Yes, they could have done a PET scan which could show metabolic activity of brain tissue. However, a cell that is active doesn't mean it is working right (tumors also show up on PET scans, e.g.). And, no scan will be able to tell what her global functioning was. She was not a candidate for MRI or fMRI since she had metal electrodes implanted years earlier as part of an experimental therapy that failed. A CT scan within a couple years showed her cerebrum (the part of the brain involved in higher cognitive function like emotion, intentional behavior, etc.) was decimated. Upon reflecting on this case a lot, I believe there was no legitimate medical reason to order any other brain scans.

RE: feeding tube. The law doesn't consider a feeding tube to be any less specialized than a ventilator in terms of treatment. It is our right to be able to refuse treatment. If the feeding tube was 'life-sustaining' which we now all know it was, then so be it. If the parents took her home and fed her for another 15 years it would have only continued this tragedy.

RE: Congress. Shame on them. What they did was unconstitutional and illegal. I read that at one point Terri was subpeonaed as a witness in a suit related to this. It was done because a federal law prohibits anyone from preventing the appearance of a witness at a trial. Therefore, nobody would have been able to remove the tube and jeopardize her appearance as a witness where she would have been expected to testify. Are you kidding me?

Terri's death is not in vain, however. This lawsuit will become a teaching case in law and medical schools for a long time. In addition, it will motivate many people to draft living wills which helps patient's families and us docs tremendously in the context of end of life care.
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Postby rer » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:06 pm

RE: Feeding Tube: When someone has been on a feeding tube for such a long time, they no longer experience hunger or thirst - their body naturally adapts to the feeding tube as the source of nutrition. Therefore, when Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed, she did not experience the pain or discomfort that any of us would feel if we just stopped eating one day.

RE: Congress: Completely in agreement with Jhorr here - Congress had no right to get involved in this, and their actions, while politically motiviated, served to just stir the pot and turn this into a much messier situation.

RE: Michael Schiavo: As her husband, from a strictly legal perspective, he had the right to choose whether or not to "pull the plug". Considering it was 5 years after doctor's diagnosed Terri with PVS and stated that there would be no further improvements in her condition before Michael decided to put an end to the situation, I would say that he allowed all options to be examined.

---

I recently spoke to my mom about this issue, and her feeling was, "How could Terri's parents possibly have allowed her to continue living in that condition for so long? Shame on them for continuing her suffering..." to which I replied, "Mom, if it were me in that situation, what would you have done?"

While I agree with my mom that there comes a point in which a rational person must make the decision that the quality of life being experienced by a person with PVS is just unconscionable. Unfortunately, in these situations, decisions are rarely based on logic, but rather on emotions or, in this case, religion (rationality in religion (or lack thereof) is not an argument I'm trying to start, btw).

My mom's response was, "Put your wishes in a living will, and I will follow them." Which brings us back to the crux of the matter. Terri Schiavo did not have a written living will, just the wishes that she had expressed to her husband. However, regardless of whether his statement of her wishes is true or false, legally speaking, it was his decision to make. A marriage contract, in this case, functions like a "transfer of property agreement" in which the husband and wife no longer "belong" to their parents, but to each other.

Just some thoughts to consider.
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Postby Duna » Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:52 am

rer wrote: A marriage contract, in this case, functions like a "transfer of property agreement" in which the husband and wife no longer "belong" to their parents, but to each other.



Does that mean a Divorce Decree is a "transfer of property" back to yer parents? :P
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Postby muma » Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:36 am

ssar wrote:These "right to life" activivists are idiots. Claiming that pulling the plug on cases like this is murder is just f**king stupid and causing totally unnecessary debate and crap.
You see these fools claiming similar crap in abortion debates.

Re: Shiavo, from what I saw her quality of "life" recently was very poor, and it was likely she would have much preferred not to live given understanding of just what a situation she was in.
All the sensationalized arguing and crap that went on between her husband and parents and whoever was just over the top.

All things considered, looks to me like things are better off now that she has passed away. Frees up important significant medical resources for others in need.


Agree Ssar. and um, if you have to have tubes to stay alive, even if they're just feeding you. that's not natural at all. she would have died a long time ago if it weren't for technology, and she should have. that was her fate. what is being accomplished by being forced to live... just laying there day after day, not being able to do anything at all, except for eat jello on your own sometimes. that would really suck. i would want to die so bad, b/c that's a living hell. think about it.

ppl who think it's cruel that the husband wanted to pull the plugs aren't realising that deep down inside, they really _don't_ care. do you know terry shiavo irL? ofc not. be honest. you don't care about whether she would have lived or not. it's just something in the news you want to argue about.
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OMG

Postby muma » Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:43 am

Sarvis wrote:
Ruxur wrote:mogr all i got to say is fuck you and your devaluation of human life.


And exactly what is the value in human life? If it's found in nothing more than respiration we have no more value than mold. The true value of our lives comes from our ability to think, feel, communicate and act. The human value of Schiavo's life was long gone, and could not ever be regained.


I agree with you too, , SArvis!
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Postby Grumdikanikus » Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:23 pm

two words...... Living Will.


IF one was actually written up then there shouldn't been an argument in the first place. Different states have different laws about it so do your research. That would have solved everyone's problem.

I know I wouldn't want to rely on a feed tube for my survival or put that kind of financial burden on my family. But then again, I guess I'm warped.

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Postby kwirl » Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:17 pm

I think we can all agree that dirty hippies are responsible for the outrage that took place in florida.

Wouldn't it be horrible if she WAS conscious and her brain was functional? She couldn't move, communicate, express herself in any way other than maybe urinating in morse code, or anything.

How would you feel spending 15 years in solitary confinement watching the world move around you in periphereal bits and pieces? You'd lose your sanity, and in a lot less time than 15 years, you would pray for death, but in this woman's case, lack even the means to do so.

Her husband realized this, and did his best to do what was best for his wife. As for the imbeciles who think this guy was a dick for remarrying and having children, what is your alternative? Live a life of solitude and despair, remorseful over something which you have no control of?

Or maybe to move on with your life, find a way to be happy again, and share the lessons you have learned with your children when they arrive.

Then again, you'd have one less thing to bitch about with your picket signs.
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:44 pm

kwirl wrote:I think we can all agree that dirty hippies are responsible for the outrage that took place in florida.



Huh!?!

How the hell do you get that conclusion when it was Republicans and religious activists trying to keep her "alive"?
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Postby Salen » Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:03 pm

Wow, Kwirl just explained why you should spay or neuter your pets, as well as neighbors and anyone scoring less than a 21.

Perhaps knowing anything about the situation would have helped; just a thought.
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Postby Disoputlip » Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:59 pm

I have heard many people express that if it would happen to them then they would prefer that the machine was turned off. I have never heard someone express the direct opposite, only when it comes to other than themselves.

But. You can wake up after many years in those machines, and then, with things like herbs and acupuncture, become 100% fresh again. Don't forget that when you tell people your decition.
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Postby Ambar » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:12 pm

I will be dead and have no idea what happened to me.. do NOT leave me in that state, so that people feel sorry for the poor cripple .. feeding off tax dollars while i lie immobile in a bed ...

how the hell do you expect her brain to have come back to life ... it was essentially DEAD, any response was pure reflexive not cognitive

I assume you want to freeze your body in case they find some way to cure it years after your death ..

I agree .. living will ...

and Terri didn't have one, this is why the fight to keep her feeding tube in ... it was removed twice over the years, once in 2001 for a few (2?) days then again in 2003 for six days ...

As a side note, who feels it was a lot for the public eye?

And who the hell are we for critisizing him for remarrying ... he prefers to remember his first wife as a vital, happy, active woman .. not the shell she turned into ...
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:06 am

That would be the whole point of the vow as worded, Ambar...

teflor the ranger wrote:Broken Vows

"to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death do us part."


Furthermore, I am certainly not criticizing, I merely stated that he broke those vows.
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Postby Duna » Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:27 am

teflor the ranger wrote:That would be the whole point of the vow as worded, Ambar...

teflor the ranger wrote:Broken Vows

"to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death do us part."


Furthermore, I am certainly not criticizing, I merely stated that he broke those vows.


He may have broke those vows, but we all know those vows don't mean jack in this day and age.
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Postby kwirl » Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:56 am

hahaha

cheers for her husband! i hope he sends her family an 'i told you so' card
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:02 am

ssar wrote:These "right to life" activivists are idiots. Claiming that pulling the plug on cases like this is murder is just f**king stupid and causing totally unnecessary debate and crap.
You see these fools claiming similar crap in abortion debates.

Re: Shiavo, from what I saw her quality of "life" recently was very poor, and it was likely she would have much preferred not to live given understanding of just what a situation she was in.
All the sensationalized arguing and crap that went on between her husband and parents and whoever was just over the top.

All things considered, looks to me like things are better off now that she has passed away. Frees up important significant medical resources for others in need.


There are always idiots on both sides of the fence. Example quoted above.
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Postby Yasden » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:31 pm

For anyone who actually thought Terri Schaivo had any chance of returning to a normal life:

http://webcenters.compuserve.com/gatewaynet/news/story.jsp?id=2005061601300001963390&dt=20050616013000&w=APO&coview=

For those of you too lazy to click:

LARGO, Fla. (AP) - The autopsy of Terri Schiavo backed her husband's contention that she was in a persistent vegetative state, finding she was severely and irreversibly brain-damaged and blind as well. The report, released Wednesday, also found no evidence that she was strangled or otherwise abused before she collapsed.

Yet medical examiners could not say for certain what caused her sudden 1990 collapse, long thought to have been brought on by an eating disorder.

The findings vindicated Michael Schiavo in his long and vitriolic battle with his in-laws, who insisted her condition was not hopeless and suggested that their daughter was the victim of violence by their son-in-law.

In its report, the medical examiner's office cast doubt on both the abuse and eating disorder theory.


The autopsy results on the 41-year-old woman were made public more than two months after Schiavo died of dehydration on March 31 following the removal of her feeding tube 13 days earlier. The death ended an extraordinary right-to-die battle that engulfed the courts, Congress and the White House.


The autopsy showed that Schiavo's brain had shrunk to about half the normal size for a woman her age and that it bore signs of severe damage.


``This damage was irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons,'' said Pinellas-Pasco County Medical Examiner Dr. Jon Thogmartin, who led the autopsy team. He also said she was blind, because the ``vision centers of her brain were dead.''


George Felos, attorney for Michael Schiavo, said the findings back up their contentions made ``for years and years'' that Terri Schiavo had no hope of recovery. He said Michael Schiavo plans to release autopsy photographs of her shrunken brain.


``Mr. Schiavo has received so much criticism throughout this case that I'm certain there's a part of him that was pleased to hear these results and the hard science behind them,'' Felos said.


Nevertheless, attorney David Gibbs III said Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, continue to believe she was not in a vegetative state and questioned the conclusion that she was blind.


The finding that she was blind counters a widely seen videotape released by her parents of Terri Schiavo in her hospice bed. The video showed Schiavo appearing to turn toward her mother's voice and smile. She moaned and laughed. Her head moved up and down and she seemed to follow the progress of a brightly colored Mickey Mouse balloon.


The parents said the video that showed she was aware of her surroundings, but doctors said her reactions were automatic responses and not evidence of consciousness.


In Washington, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the autopsy did nothing to change President Bush's position that Schiavo's feeding tube should not have been disconnected. He had signed a bill, rushed through by Congress in March, in a last-ditch effort to restore her feeding tube.


Thogmartin also said Schiavo would not have been able to eat or drink if given food by mouth as the Schindlers wanted after the tube was removed. In fact, he said, she might easily have choked to death if such feedings had been tried.


``Removal of her feeding tube would have resulted in her death whether she was fed or hydrated by mouth or not,'' Thogmartin told reporters.


The autopsy included 274 external and internal body images and an exhaustive review of Terri Schiavo's medical records, police reports and social services agency records.


Thogmartin said that the autopsy produced no conclusion on what triggered the temporary heart stoppage that caused her collapse and brain damage. He said there was no evidence of drug use, though he cautioned that Schiavo was not tested in 1990 for every conceivable substance that could have been in her blood.


He said there was no proof she suffered from an eating disorder such as bulimia, which can disrupt the body chemistry with lethal effect. The main piece of evidence cited for an eating disorder - the low levels of potassium in her blood in 1990 - could have been caused by the emergency treatment she received at the time, Thogmartin said.


While she had lost more than 100 pounds since high school, Schiavo never confessed to an eating disorder, she did not take diet pills and no one had witnessed her purging food, the medical examiner said.


He also discounted the possibility that she had overdosed on caffeine from drinking large amounts of tea in an effort to keep her weight down.


The cause of death was ruled dehydration from removal of the feeding tube, but the underlying reason for her brain damage was officially listed as ``undetermined.''


In addition, the autopsy found no traces of morphine in her system at her death, although she had been given two doses in the days before she died. The Schindlers had contended that morphine might have been used to speed their daughter's death.


The Schindlers fought their son-in-law in court over their daughter's fate for nearly seven years, battling to the end with conservatives at their side. Michael Schiavo said his wife never would have wanted to be kept alive artificially in such a condition.


Courts repeatedly rejected extraordinary attempts at intervention by Florida lawmakers, Gov. Jeb Bush, Congress and the president on behalf of her parents.


Experts said that the autopsy demonstrates how difficult it is for people to recover from severe brain damage.


``People should understand that sometimes, for known or unknown reasons, individuals sustain massive brain injury that for which healing is not possible,'' said Dr. Karen Weidenheim, the chief of neuropathology at Montefiore Medical Center in New York. ``Everything that could have been done was done for this lady for 15 years, and this case is very tragic.''
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:14 pm

It just doesn't matter to some people. Here we have reams of scientific evidence, brain scans, neural imprints, and top scientists on one side, and "a brightly colored Mickey Mouse balloon" on the other.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:21 am

kwirl wrote:hahaha

cheers for her husband! i hope he sends her family an 'i told you so' card


so when did he stop loving her?

or did he uphold her wishes not to be kept alive artifically. I dont think he ever said im tired of taking care of her lets kill her off.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:30 am

Yasden wrote:For anyone who actually thought Terri Schaivo had any chance of returning to a normal life:

http://webcenters.compuserve.com/gatewaynet/news/story.jsp?id=2005061601300001963390&dt=20050616013000&w=APO&coview=


Nevermind the fact they were doing an autopsy on a person that was dehydrated to death. *cough* But hey, we're liberals, let's forget all those ... fact thingies.
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Postby Yasden » Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:26 am

The autopsy was done specifically so that the extent of her brain damage was known publically, not to determine the cause of death. However, they did determine that no drugs were used to "speed it up", and that no forms of abuse were present behind the cause of her collapse. My opinion is still that she had an eating disorder.

Her brain had shrunk to half the size of a normal adult's brain, which had rendered her blind. That pretty much sums it up, I'd think.

Even Maxler's brain is bigger than that. :P
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:40 am

Brain measured after death by evaporation.

But nevermind that kind of death would kill just as many brain cells.

Or even that death tends to kill brain cells as well.

Nevermind other people living with brain damage.

Nevermind others living with a significant portion of brain mass loss.

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Postby Vigis » Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:23 am

Teflor's mind is made up. Therefore, end of story.

I made it known years and years ago that I do not want life support. Heck, even Terri might have told her husband her wishes, but guess what? Her parents figured they knew her best (probably because they were her parents).

I have made all kinds of decisions as to who will decide how long I will live as a vegetable, who inherits what I have accumulated, and I would hope that my parents, brother, and sister would know me well enough to not try blocking my wishes with a court order.

I can guarantee 1 thing: I talk to my SigO hell, I even talk to my former SigO more than I talk to my family.

Therefore, who should have more pull, the people I talk to or the people who share my DNA?
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:45 am

Actually, I don't believe Terry Schaivo had a chance in hell.

But waving around this autopsy report as anything either significant or enlightning is just ignorant.

As for a person's best wishes?

Advice from the Wise Man on the Mountain.

Put everything in writing or you'll end up broke and living in a cave on top of a #@!# mountain.

And bear in mind, that even if it is truly someone's wish to kill themselves, it doesn't mean you should let them. (teenage suicide, for example)
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:58 am

Teflor, as with most Republicans, will never bow to simple scientific facts. Scientists, you see, are almost never correct. They assert crazy theories like "Terry Schiavo's brain was mauled from years of damage" and "the Earth is older than 4004 BC." Cause they're all liberals, yo. Sure, brain matter is only 22% water, but it can lose 50% of its volume after 2 weeks of dehydration. It's cool, man. That science shit? It's totally wack.
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Postby Corth » Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:00 am

Ragorn,

Your generalization is of course unfair. This is not a question of science. Its an autoposy. The conclusions are pretty straightforward and there isnt much room for interpretation. Trust me it is not a republican position to distrust something as simple as an autopsy.

When science becomes debateable in the political arena, more often than not we're talking about the accuracy of scientific theories which have an impact on the public (i.e. evolution, global warming), or the ethics of questionable types of science (experimenting on animals, stem cell research). Theories of course should be criticized as per the scientific method. Ethics should be debated so that society can come to some sort of consensus on what sor of behavior is appropriate. Republicans, like Democrats, serve an important roll in these interactions between society and science.

In regard specifically to the Terry Schiavo case, there was an ethical debate over whether or not she should be taken off life support. Fair enough. Some people, at the time, believed that her, and others in a like position, should be taken off life support, others didn't. That debate has not been resolved, and will not for a long time to come. However, most reasonable people must acknowledge, in light of her recent autopsy, that the extent of Terry Schiavo's brain function has been determined, and in fact, there was very little of it. That Terry Schiavo had severe and irrecoverable brain damage, determined after the fact, has no bearing on what should have happened before her brain was sliced up.

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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:15 am

Ragorn wrote:Teflor, as with most Republicans, will never bow to simple scientific facts. Scientists, you see, are almost never correct. They assert crazy theories like "Terry Schiavo's brain was mauled from years of damage" and "the Earth is older than 4004 BC." Cause they're all liberals, yo. Sure, brain matter is only 22% water, but it can lose 50% of its volume after 2 weeks of dehydration. It's cool, man. That science shit? It's totally wack.


Ragorn, science is what YOU are ignoring.

Death causes brain damage.

Terri's initial brain damage was caused by a few minutes of respritory/cardiac distress.

Death by dehydration would have done much worse.

The National Institutes of Health wrote:Untreated severe dehydration may result in seizures, permanent brain damage, or death.


A brain already fragile damaged further and should anyone be suprised by the autopsy? The answer again is no, nor is the autopsy relevent to the issue.

Especially when you consider that there are many living in a conscious state missing significant portions (up to nearly half) of their brain mass.

But we're good little liberals so let's forget all those nasty little facty sciencey things.
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:39 pm

<b>Ragorn
Vigis</b>

Don't bother, he's just trying to bait people into a stupid argument.
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