[D&D] 3.5 CR question - my players, please avoid.

[moritheil]

Hi, I'd like to ask those of us who play 3.5 what you think of the Crysmal.

It's a psionic earth elemental with several at-will psionic abilities, DR 5/bludgeoning, and immunity to fire and cold.

First I'll tell you what happened, then I'll tell you the problem I see with it (if you don't see it already by then).

The party stopped to camp en route to a dungeon. They saw some movement in the distance, and leaving an NPC behind to watch the camp (who was useless in battle anyhow), they formed ranks and went to investigate. Though they marched off for a couple hundred feet or so, nothing showed through the tall grass. There were a few eerie sounds that gave them pause, but in the end they returned to camp empty-handed.

It was then that they got their first taste of disaster. The NPC came down the road, screaming something about horrible scorpion monsters, and as they drew nearer, they could see that the camp was a mess. Things had been overturned, the fire had been put out, and the tents were collapsed. Leaving behind a cleric to try to soothe the NPC and talk sense out of him, the party moved forward to try to retake their campsite, although no enemy was in sight.

Objects moved of their own free will and began attacking them - first a rock, then a tent, and finally the kettle that had been over the fire. People tried to detect magic and detect evil, without too much success (the detect magic caster was hit by an object and lost his concentration after the first round.) On a guess, someone cast entangle on the shrubbery at the edge of the camp, but that yielded nothing.

Finally, the group began overturning everything, and found a hole under the other tent (the one that had not attacked them).

Getting smart, the group's mage cast a grease spell down the hole, and followed it up by igniting the grease. Oil may or may not have been poured down to help things out; I can't recall. A shield was held over the hole, so that air wouldn't enter it. In this fashion, they hoped to kill whatever had undone their camp.

Moving on to another campsite, they set up for the night.



I don't want to make this post too long, but basically this thing handed the group their asses. It took them forever to figure out where it was (it happened to be rumaging under a tent when they returned, so it glanced outside and used its psi-like abilities), and even in the end, they didn't hurt it. (It decided that it had really stirred a nest up, so to speak, and it wouldn't bother coming out.) It ruined some of their supplies and nearly slew one person (he had taken the brunt of the animated object attacks and failed a save on a Mind Thrust.) It scared the hell out of the group, at least briefly.

The crysmal is only CR 3. The group consisted, at the time, of 8-10 players whose average level was 2. That's equivalent to a level 4 party of 4. Even if they were all level one, they would be a equivalent to a level 3 party of 4. An encounter of the same level as the party is only, if I'm not mistaken, supposed to take up 1/4 of the party's resources. It is not supposed to be potentially fatal for the entire group.

Based on this, and a later encounter they had with it where two people nearly died before it psionic dimension doored out, I'm thinking the crysmal's CR should be something more like 4 or 5. Even though they didn't kill it, I ruled that they defeated it (by causing it to run away) and gave out exp accordingly.

My concerns are:

1) The thing only has an intelligence of 6. Nothing I have done was, IMHO, outside that intelligence, since even beasts know how to run away when they don't feel good about a fight, and the thing ran away whenever the adventurers were about to confront it in numbers. However, I wonder if I'm playing it too smartly.

2) While crysmals don't care about the deaths of people, if they did, I would have been able to coup-de-grace perhaps half the party in the second encounter (again, those on watch were lured out from camp while the spellcasters slept. The crysmal has 3/day psionic dimension door.)

3) I suppose you could say that, in a very real sense, only 25% of the party's resources were lost in terms of ruined supplies and cast spells, but somehow it just feels that I may have been overly generous in my interpretation of the creature's actions and aims. I always figured the 25% should mean that the monster is dead as a doornail after the encounter, not that the party members only lived because it felt like being elsewhere.

4) Nearly any monster with at-will psionic abilities in so broad a range can basically slay a group through attrition if nothing else. I'm not sure if this is a design flaw, if the DM is supposed to play nice for some inexplicable reason, or if the party is just supposed to be much more competent. (Before anyone says it's imbalanced because I used a psionic monster, let me point out that there is at least one psionic raced PC in the party, and all players had the option of using the Expanded Psionic Handbook as well as other books. Psionic monsters were fair game.)

[Kesena]

After taking a peek at the monster in question, Looks to me like a CR 3 is appropriate. Nothing listed there seems to boosted. Dunno how it managed to kick so much butt. From what you've posted I can't see as how you over rated its intelligence.

[Yayaril]

8)

Here's one goof up. Unless you are using an earlier version of the Psionic's handbook, control object requires concentration, so I don't see how the Crysmal can control more than one animated object at a time. Also, to control the animated object properly, the crysmal would have to be able to see the object. It doesn't appear to have any sort of hiding skill, so due to its size and dexterity, would only have a +6 to hide. Unless it rolled well to hide while its animated object was assaulting the players, then 8-10 players should have spotted it during its mischief making. They most likely would figure out that this creature was the cause of the problem and surround and attack it. It would then most likely burrow away, knowing that this large group of people were too much for it. Its CR of 3 seems appropriate. Although it has a powerful defense of DR and good AC, it has weak offensive capabilities.

[teflor the ranger]

move all party for great justice.

if you're going to throw a noob a bunch of curve balls, you make sure they're wearing a helmet and pads.

[Sarvis]

10 people standing around the camp don't notice a big lump under a fallen tent? They must have terrible Spot checks!

I'd say you were playing it too smart as well. It just seriously outsmarted everyone, playing tricks on them, distracting them from it's position (I guess) and tricking them with illusions.

Soujnds like a fun encounter though!

[moritheil]

8)

Here's one goof up. Unless you are using an earlier version of the Psionic's handbook, control object requires concentration, so I don't see how the Crysmal can control more than one animated object at a time. Also, to control the animated object properly, the crysmal would have to be able to see the object. It doesn't appear to have any sort of hiding skill, so due to its size and dexterity, would only have a +6 to hide. Unless it rolled well to hide while its animated object was assaulting the players, then 8-10 players should have spotted it during its mischief making. They most likely would figure out that this creature was the cause of the problem and surround and attack it. It would then most likely burrow away, knowing that this large group of people were too much for it. Its CR of 3 seems appropriate. Although it has a powerful defense of DR and good AC, it has weak offensive capabilities.

Only one of those objects was animated at any given time.

It did in fact only have a +6 to hide, but nobody was really looking around at the camp; they just assumed an invisible enemy. Furthermore, almost everyone was leery about getting close to the camp, so they hung back, and it was dark already. Only one person was actually in the camp, and he spent most of his time trying to fight the animated tent (including after it had stopped being animated).

Very good assessment overall, though.


Sarvis, Control Sound and other things are part of its at-will abilities, so I just made a conscious effort to use them all. Nonetheless, I was concerned about its intelligence, so I'll note your vote for "too smart." And you're right, it was fun. :D

[Yayaril]

8)

It was more or less an invisible enemy if you didn't get them a chance to spot it.

[moritheil]

8)

It was more or less an invisible enemy if you didn't get them a chance to spot it.

I rolled secretly a couple of times for the guy who was in the camp, but as the whole place was a mess and there were piles and bundles of things everywhere, my general description didn't highlight the tent (which of course had things in it, and an expected bulge anyway).

The ranger noticed strange tracks on the ground when he got in range.

[Yayaril]

8)

The crysmal was probably peeking out of the tent in order to see its animated object and thus control it. This would allow everyone a chance to spot it, albeit at the usual -1 per 10 feet away. It would be difficult to spot from outside of the camp, but still possible.

[Ragorn]

Don't forget also that Challenge Level is not the same as Encounter Level. The party was surprised, fighting an unknown monster at range, who had unknown powers, in the dark. I would rate the encounter at least EL 4, if not 5.

However, it sounds like your players were fairly foolish as well. When they assumed an invisible enemy, did any of them attempt Listen checks to determine location? Didn't the Ranger think it was odd that an invisible enemy left no footprints? Did the Psionic make any attempt to detect psionic spells, via a Spellcraft check? Certain Telekinesis is a power he should be intimately familiar with. It sounds like the players made a faulty assumption and just ran with it, without trying to use their skills to determine whether their assumption was accurate.

[Sarvis]

Didn't the Ranger think it was odd that an invisible enemy left no footprints?

The Ranger did notice footprints at one point...

But didn't he think follow them and maybe see where the came from/went too?

[moritheil]

Don't forget also that Challenge Level is not the same as Encounter Level. The party was surprised, fighting an unknown monster at range, who had unknown powers, in the dark. I would rate the encounter at least EL 4, if not 5.

However, it sounds like your players were fairly foolish as well. When they assumed an invisible enemy, did any of them attempt Listen checks to determine location? Didn't the Ranger think it was odd that an invisible enemy left no footprints? Did the Psionic make any attempt to detect psionic spells, via a Spellcraft check? Certain Telekinesis is a power he should be intimately familiar with. It sounds like the players made a faulty assumption and just ran with it, without trying to use their skills to determine whether their assumption was accurate.

Ah right, this explains it. So the creature was still CR 3 and the EL was 4 or 5 . . . that explains why it felt like the work of a CR 4-5 to me. I know, intellectually, of the difference, but I tend to only think of EL when considering traps or multiple monster fights.

IIRC only a few attempted listen checks. Most people in the party assumed someone else would break the invisibility and readied ranged weapons to fire at something unfamiliar fading into visibility.

Thanks for the comments, everyone!