why bidding systems suck

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
Ambar
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Postby Ambar » Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:48 pm

buttered and salted please :)
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Postby Ruxur » Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:09 pm

Ambar wrote:
Ruxur wrote:
Ambar wrote:cause you are all essentially saying the same thing

hey heres an idea, play actively agian, and then ill give you your 2 cents back


you may not know all my alts ... I'm on every day :) If I wanted 2 cents I wouldnt ask you .. I would probably ask someone with some guild loyalty :)


before you spout off about a situation that you arent involved in, you need to do some better reaserch. My leaving SoI had nothing to do with you and is none of your concern.

and as far as you being active, well thats just silly.
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:18 pm

::sniffle:: We miss you, Maxi-pad.
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Postby Ambar » Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:18 pm

didnt know ya left imphras to be honest .. til someone pointed it out online ...

was a coincidence .. my comment :P
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Postby Kifle » Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:51 pm

Ashiwi wrote:::sniffle:: We miss you, Maxi-pad.


Lol, you had a maxi-pad and a tampon in the same guild. That's just awesome.
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Postby Maxler » Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:12 am

Ambar wrote:didnt know ya left imphras to be honest .. til someone pointed it out online ...

was a coincidence .. my comment :P


if thats the case, then what could you possibly have to say to me about guild loyalty? is this yet another situation that you know nothing about. Look, before you talk negatively about someone have your facts strait.

and yes i do know that you do not zone regularly, because i would see you, and i dont. I am in a good percentage of the zones run these days, and expecially the zones led by the person whose bidding system we are discussing.
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Postby turg » Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:37 am

Salen wrote:
Ruxur wrote:
Points have been assigned to items according to the demand for the item.

If you abstain your points accumulate.

case in point, i abstained for 2 weeks on the turgy system and worked my way up to 11.5 points in time for BC. Because i had the highest point total by far in the group, and needed the sleeves, i got the sleeves with no dice roll.


So, by this system, you COULD (not saying you do) 4-5 man suck zones for a couple weeks, accumulate phony points, then use that to justify why all the good stuff gets handed out without dice from real zones... Or, as Kiryan? said, could manipulate the group to include only people who have lower points so the high people get stacked with items.... got it.

I'm sure we ALL can think of people from the past that did essentially this same thing. Somehow when real items came up, only their buddies ever got them.

Pretty much every bid system beyond dicing is made to manipulate the outcome to be more favorable to the sub-set of people you run with. I personally don't care since I zone when I have the time, not because I need 'X' item (If that were the case I'd still live in Jot... Stupid Kost). You can do whatever you want, just tell people before hand.


One other thing. Why would people go to BC knowing that they have no shot in hell of winning since players X,Y, and Z will be handed whatever they want because they tagged along more?




Salen,
My system also has an element of trust involved. If a person (not you) think I would take that much time to develop a system to try to be fair (and get rid of my headaches at the end of the zones), then take 4-5 people to pods and give points, in order to manipulate the system, you are trying to go to one extreme that is highly unlikely. If you really think I'm planning on doing this or have done this, then please tell me know if I ask you to group, or don't ask me to group period. I have regulars who enjoy zoning with me everyday and don't only bring up minor flaws that could only be taken advantage of by some sort of cheating swine. Again, refer to past statement. If you don't think I'm trying to be fair, don't follow me. PERIOD! :P I been gone all weekend Salen is why I took so long to respond....just responded to people who wrote.....No harm in some spirited debate.



Also, to answer another question, BC takes 3 hours now if done correctly. My last run we only had two deaths on Bel, not each, but in total rather. The same time that Seelie is said to take. Why then would one goto seely? Because they are both worth 2 points, not one. My point system does, however, tend to favor the regulars. Don't you think it should be in my best interest to take care of my regulars? It also favors regulars in a simular way to a dice system. The more dice groups yer in, over time, you should win more. Granted you don't have terrible luck. My point system was implemented so that cleric primaries get cleric gear instead of some guy who just bid on the item cause it's most valuable. Those who don't group with me much can still get items, just not until they get a few zones in. One other thing I've tried to implement is I ask the point leaders where they want to go, so that they can make use of their points.

I would also like to respond to Kiryan directly instead of just making snide comments referring to him but not directly admitting it. So Kiryan, I've made it halfway to the six month, how much longer will I last? Wait this is a two part question. Part two: How many zones have you led compared to me, since I've been back (who has a point system as well). I would feel safe to say that I have led 20 zones for each of your one since I've been back. I guess idling and xping alts allday does not mean that you've quit. I will say that my system, however it is, fair or unfair, is posted for everyone to see and is GETTING USED at least.

(To everyone who thinks my system is unfair)I'm really getting sick and tired of people posting on this board all the time, complaining nonstop, without some sort of CONSTRUCTIVE critcism. Why don't you people get off your ass and lead zones yourself then and see what happenst. Then maybe, just maybe, you'll have a little more respect for what leaders do and won't give them such a hard time. I would be willing to bet that half of you people complaining would quit trying to lead after seeing what it's really like. Reading all these posts reminds me of some partisan debate. Never coming up with any solutions, just pointing out fault.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:19 am

Maxler wrote:
Ambar wrote:didnt know ya left imphras to be honest .. til someone pointed it out online ...

was a coincidence .. my comment :P


if thats the case, then what could you possibly have to say to me about guild loyalty? is this yet another situation that you know nothing about. Look, before you talk negatively about someone have your facts strait.

and yes i do know that you do not zone regularly, because i would see you, and i dont. I am in a good percentage of the zones run these days, and expecially the zones led by the person whose bidding system we are discussing.


Rux drop it ...

I am on EVERY day .. do I zone? No .. dont have TIME with 2 jobs and a LIFE now :) Not zoning doesnt make a person inactive :)

LIFE .. its whats for dinner :) Try it .. it's YUMMY :)
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Postby Pril » Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:49 pm

Ambar wrote:
Maxler wrote:
Ambar wrote:didnt know ya left imphras to be honest .. til someone pointed it out online ...

was a coincidence .. my comment :P


if thats the case, then what could you possibly have to say to me about guild loyalty? is this yet another situation that you know nothing about. Look, before you talk negatively about someone have your facts strait.

and yes i do know that you do not zone regularly, because i would see you, and i dont. I am in a good percentage of the zones run these days, and expecially the zones led by the person whose bidding system we are discussing.


Rux drop it ...

I am on EVERY day .. do I zone? No .. dont have TIME with 2 jobs and a LIFE now :) Not zoning doesnt make a person inactive :)

LIFE .. its whats for dinner :) Try it .. it's YUMMY :)


Only if you put some duck sauce on it! *nod self*

Pril
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Postby Kifle » Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:34 pm

turg wrote:(To everyone who thinks my system is unfair)I'm really getting sick and tired of people posting on this board all the time, complaining nonstop, without some sort of CONSTRUCTIVE critcism. Why don't you people get off your ass and lead zones yourself then and see what happenst. Then maybe, just maybe, you'll have a little more respect for what leaders do and won't give them such a hard time. I would be willing to bet that half of you people complaining would quit trying to lead after seeing what it's really like. Reading all these posts reminds me of some partisan debate. Never coming up with any solutions, just pointing out fault.


I have led zones before -- on a regular basis; however, I didn't like it. Also, just because somebody doesn't agree with your system, does not mean that they are wrong and are just complaining. It takes a hell of a lot of audacity to think that since you lead the most, and you've tried the hardest, your system is without flaws. Point one: you said yourself that your system favors your regulars; however, I know for a fact that you don't shout in WD to form your group -- giving everybody on a chance to get into your group -- meaning, your regulars are people YOU choose to take, not the other way around. Who's to say some no-name wouldn't follow you to the ends of the mud with extreme loyalty and never complain? You'll never know because you end up asking the same people on every time you zone. To put in a system which favors these people that YOU choose to take is called favoritism. You can paint it however you like it, but that's still what it will end up being when you're done. You want to be fair? Shout in WD to get your groups and we'll see who are the firs to respond. I'll bet the ones that sit around WD with nothing to do would just love to go zone with you. Then have the little amount of people that you find in WD ask their friends...not your friends, but their friends, if they want to go. Just tell them what classes you need.

Until you can find a way to give equal opportunity to get into your groups, this system is called favoritism. Your system IS flawed; no matter how proud you are of it or how much time you've put into it. If you want to make a fair system, keep at it. If you want to make a system that favors your friends, keep this one. It's entirely up to you, since I really don't care.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:00 pm

mmmmmmmmmm duck sauce!!

leftover chinese for lunch today .. lo mein and fried rice with duck sauce on it
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Postby Lahgen » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:36 pm

Kifle:

I see your point about Turgy's system being favoritism, and I don't entirely disagree with it, but here's a counterpoint:

If you were about to lead a zone, who would you prefer to take: the person you know is competent and will do his job right, or the person you don't know from Adam who could have just gotten to zonable level by being plevelled?

When you choose people for dodgeball at gym, it's not neccesarily 'favoritism' to not choose the skinny uncoordinated runt or the fat guy with a low con score.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:50 pm

His lead, his system, everybody else chooses to follow him or not. I can't say I agree with it 100%, but if I agree to follow him into a zone I know that's how it works, and I agree to bide by those rules.

The easiest solution if you don't like his bidding system is to not join his zoning groups. That's not the best solution for many, but the answer to that is to step up, lead the zones, and make your own solution to the problem.
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:52 pm

Favouritism in bidding helps you build a core group.

This is not Diablow
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Postby turg » Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:38 pm

Kifle wrote:
turg wrote:(To everyone who thinks my system is unfair)I'm really getting sick and tired of people posting on this board all the time, complaining nonstop, without some sort of CONSTRUCTIVE critcism. Why don't you people get off your ass and lead zones yourself then and see what happenst. Then maybe, just maybe, you'll have a little more respect for what leaders do and won't give them such a hard time. I would be willing to bet that half of you people complaining would quit trying to lead after seeing what it's really like. Reading all these posts reminds me of some partisan debate. Never coming up with any solutions, just pointing out fault.


I have led zones before -- on a regular basis; however, I didn't like it. Also, just because somebody doesn't agree with your system, does not mean that they are wrong and are just complaining. It takes a hell of a lot of audacity to think that since you lead the most, and you've tried the hardest, your system is without flaws. Point one: you said yourself that your system favors your regulars; however, I know for a fact that you don't shout in WD to form your group -- giving everybody on a chance to get into your group -- meaning, your regulars are people YOU choose to take, not the other way around. Who's to say some no-name wouldn't follow you to the ends of the mud with extreme loyalty and never complain? You'll never know because you end up asking the same people on every time you zone. To put in a system which favors these people that YOU choose to take is called favoritism. You can paint it however you like it, but that's still what it will end up being when you're done. You want to be fair? Shout in WD to get your groups and we'll see who are the firs to respond. I'll bet the ones that sit around WD with nothing to do would just love to go zone with you. Then have the little amount of people that you find in WD ask their friends...not your friends, but their friends, if they want to go. Just tell them what classes you need.

Until you can find a way to give equal opportunity to get into your groups, this system is called favoritism. Your system IS flawed; no matter how proud you are of it or how much time you've put into it. If you want to make a fair system, keep at it. If you want to make a system that favors your friends, keep this one. It's entirely up to you, since I really don't care.


Kifle,
I would like to address a couple things you said. First, I ask on a REGULAR basis to my regulars, what am I doing wrong with my system, how can I improve it. I'm doing an honest job trying to make things fair and get 0 credit for doing so. I have been told by many I should take more than the regular amount of points for leading, but I do not. I could have claimed winged helm from izans last week because i had 4x the points of the other two bidders. The other two bidders were clerics, so I diced it between them. I am just trying to explain to you that behind this vicious, mean system, theres a logical-thinking guy trying to make things reasonable.

When I lead zones, I take those who I know will follow my orders. This has nothing to do with a power trip, but more so I can feel more safe pushing the group to test their limits. To answer your statement about "my audacity to think that since you lead the most, and you've tried the hardest, your system is without flaws." I NEVER ONCE said it didn't have flaws and I think it takes even more audacity on your part to put words into my mouth that aren't true. I have never said that my system is without flaws. You guys like to complain, like I said, and is proved by yer previous statements. Your whole premise is that I'm defending my flawless system is flawed. If you actually took a few f'ing minutes to talk to me or anyone else who's followed me with my rules, you'd understand that I've more than proactive as far as finding ways to improve my system and then maybe you wouldn't just post blindly about certain topics. I do listen to what you say and I do see your points, but you cannot just assume things you don't know, it really takes yer credibility away in my eyes.

I also strongly disagree with your favoritism sentence. I have played here close to 12 years and it took damn close to 6-7years to get in my FIRST zone group because I played evil. I had to get my break from a friend who got me into the groups. I will not lead big, dangerous zones, without knowing what people are capable of. I also strongly suggest for people to ask me if anything is going on or anything they could be a part of. If the person is willing to learn and will listen to me unconditionally, then I will take them if I need them. I don't order people around just to order them around. I do it because I believe it's the best way to do a certain zone. If anyone thinks I'm doing it just to bark orders, then I don't want them to follow me. Once I know I have complete trust from my followers, things run much more smoothly and more efficiently. I see my system as paying off those loyal to me and thats exactly what I want to have happen. If these items are not bid on first round, I offer them for less points, and then if there is still eq left, I dice the rest.

I just hope you can read what you wrote about my flawless system and understand, more clearly now, why I get upset at people complaining. The only point you made that makes any sense to me is the shouting in WD. Whether I use a point system or dice, the people I ask to zone with me is the people I ask to zone with me. Those people I don't, don't go either way. It's just feeling comfortable with your regular group more than anything else. Doing this, has by the way, made my groups much more efficient in recent history.

Kifle, I'm not trying to knock on you personally, I just wish people would come to me and talk to me rather than read a post and just try to argue because they like to argue. Please feel free to send me a tell sometime to discuss this on a more private, less-emotional setting.

Turgy
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Postby Nokar » Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:02 pm

Well after reading some pretty fiery debate and seeing some pretty nasty pointing. I have a few things to say.
1. I am not perfect in any way.
2. I am not in favor of favoritism.
3. I like to have fun and explore.

With that being said I have to point out something that I have currently been having problems with. I was told some months back that the latest zoneable level happened to be around 44-46. Well I busted ass and go to level 45.
Now I am told I'm still too small to go on runs due to rescue and bash not being maxxed out.

I have been playing on this mud for 10+ years. I am not even close to knowing everything about every zone since things keep changing. But I do know and have came to the conclusion that once you hit about lvl 43 for a warrior that you can't go anywhere or gain much xp unless you either know someone who knows someone or your in a guild. Even being in a guild don't guarantee much anymore.

I understand that the 'leaders' want a competant person to zone with to cut down on deaths but how does a person get competant if not taught?
As I have mentioned in other topics, I don't use rescue triggers. At times I have been known to use rescue macros especially when someone's damn name is just too damn long to constantly remember and type fast enough so that don't get deaded. I use triggers for eating, drinking, and standing after a failed bash or being bashed. but thats about it.

I really don't like how this thread has turned out. nope not at all. I do however see both points clearly.

I feel that if people don't like the bid system that turg has then come up with a new one, run it by him or whoever then go from there. otherwise do what I do when I am able to lead a zone or a rare. DICE IT! The only restrictions I have ever had is, if I see a mage or a non-warrior putting a bid on a warrior only or tank only item just to trade it off, I restrict the item to it's class. I don't care if you have umpteen alts. You are playing the character that you thought you wanted to choose for the group I lead so thats the type of eq you will bid on. The only exception I have for that is if it is a piece to a quest. I enjoy questing. Hell back years and years ago I was the only warrior who done spell quests just to do them. I had moonwell, gate, relocate,etc. Just couldn't use them. *shrug*

As far as favortism well it seems to be catchy. This mud has been as long as I have been playing on it very clique oriented. Even back in the days when the 2 top guild were Eye and CS. If you really weren't one or the other you didnt do much or didn't have much.

That's fine. But what just adds insult to injury is that if a clique is getting ready to zone that have the ability to have players switch out what class they ar playing because they have outfitted everyones alts as well.
How does that apply? some may ask... well when I am one of few warriors on of the morning I'll lfg lookin for work. WOAH! a izans group starts, a musp group starts, a jot group starts. Instead of seeing if I am available or refusing my asking to join they have someone switch out to another alt.

You people want a larger pbase, you people want new things for already existing classes, you want want want want want! Well how can the staff accomplish this when 1. you guys already do the zones without the changes, without the new stuff, without the unique and artifacts, etc. without the larger pbase.

I have watched things happen to new newbies that frankly would have pissed me off to no end and I wouldn't have stayed more than a day. I have watched people get snubbed, berated, and outright ignored simply because they don't know what to do yet and are asking to be showed what to do.

that last thing I have to say is if you people who run zones all the time want more people to learn their classes, be a more 'competant' mudder for toril then if you don't like how they are playing take an active role in showing them how you think they shoudl be doing things. Don't be rude about it but say well instead of doing what you are doing try this it has always worked well for me. If they decide not to take your advice then go on. But at least you showed them. I remember back in the old days on here there was always people showing other people how to play their classes. It wasn't this pompous attitude of everyone thinking they are better than someone else so why show them how to be better than me. BAH! Yes there should be some competition but when you won't show others what to do then bitch about what they are doing you're just as much to blame as them.

/soapbox

Anyways, trying helping others out sometime. I have people still to this day that help me cr, zone, etc. Simply because they remember back when they started and I would run newbie xp groups, or help them with their class, etc. They remember be for what I did for them not for what I GAVE them.

Just like the old addage(sp) says give a man a fish he will eat for a day, show him how to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life.

And please try to keep personal things out of actual debates. Or discussions. if you are going to argue about something personal take it to a new thread or PM it or mmail it or send all caps tells to one another. But keep it out of actual meaningful threads that could possibly end up with a solution that could better the mud as a whole.

L8r,
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You group say 'Is there any aggro's here?'
You flee westward!
You group say 'ummm guys?'
Rhoquinn group says 'Dammit Nok'
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:05 pm

Nokar wrote:I understand that the 'leaders' want a competant person to zone with to cut down on deaths but how does a person get competant if not taught?As I have mentioned in other topics, I don't use rescue triggers. At times I have been known to use rescue macros especially when someone's damn name is just too damn long to constantly remember and type fast enough so that don't get deaded. I use triggers for eating, drinking, and standing after a failed bash or being bashed. but thats about it.


Triggerless gunda rescue = Thanuk + Hotkeys + Gags
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Postby Maxler » Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:06 pm

Ambar wrote:
Maxler wrote:
Ambar wrote:didnt know ya left imphras to be honest .. til someone pointed it out online ...

was a coincidence .. my comment :P


if thats the case, then what could you possibly have to say to me about guild loyalty? is this yet another situation that you know nothing about. Look, before you talk negatively about someone have your facts strait.

and yes i do know that you do not zone regularly, because i would see you, and i dont. I am in a good percentage of the zones run these days, and expecially the zones led by the person whose bidding system we are discussing.


Rux drop it ...

I am on EVERY day .. do I zone? No .. dont have TIME with 2 jobs and a LIFE now :) Not zoning doesnt make a person inactive :)

LIFE .. its whats for dinner :) Try it .. it's YUMMY :)

ahh so i am right. Because you are not a regular zoner, then your input on this thread, or my guild loyalty for that matter is null and void. Please keep your uninformed comments to yourself.
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Postby Kifle » Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:07 pm

turg wrote:
Kifle wrote:
turg wrote:(To everyone who thinks my system is unfair)I'm really getting sick and tired of people posting on this board all the time, complaining nonstop, without some sort of CONSTRUCTIVE critcism. Why don't you people get off your ass and lead zones yourself then and see what happenst. Then maybe, just maybe, you'll have a little more respect for what leaders do and won't give them such a hard time. I would be willing to bet that half of you people complaining would quit trying to lead after seeing what it's really like. Reading all these posts reminds me of some partisan debate. Never coming up with any solutions, just pointing out fault.


I have led zones before -- on a regular basis; however, I didn't like it. Also, just because somebody doesn't agree with your system, does not mean that they are wrong and are just complaining. It takes a hell of a lot of audacity to think that since you lead the most, and you've tried the hardest, your system is without flaws. Point one: you said yourself that your system favors your regulars; however, I know for a fact that you don't shout in WD to form your group -- giving everybody on a chance to get into your group -- meaning, your regulars are people YOU choose to take, not the other way around. Who's to say some no-name wouldn't follow you to the ends of the mud with extreme loyalty and never complain? You'll never know because you end up asking the same people on every time you zone. To put in a system which favors these people that YOU choose to take is called favoritism. You can paint it however you like it, but that's still what it will end up being when you're done. You want to be fair? Shout in WD to get your groups and we'll see who are the firs to respond. I'll bet the ones that sit around WD with nothing to do would just love to go zone with you. Then have the little amount of people that you find in WD ask their friends...not your friends, but their friends, if they want to go. Just tell them what classes you need.

Until you can find a way to give equal opportunity to get into your groups, this system is called favoritism. Your system IS flawed; no matter how proud you are of it or how much time you've put into it. If you want to make a fair system, keep at it. If you want to make a system that favors your friends, keep this one. It's entirely up to you, since I really don't care.


Kifle,
I would like to address a couple things you said. First, I ask on a REGULAR basis to my regulars, what am I doing wrong with my system, how can I improve it. I'm doing an honest job trying to make things fair and get 0 credit for doing so. I have been told by many I should take more than the regular amount of points for leading, but I do not. I could have claimed winged helm from izans last week because i had 4x the points of the other two bidders. The other two bidders were clerics, so I diced it between them. I am just trying to explain to you that behind this vicious, mean system, theres a logical-thinking guy trying to make things reasonable.

When I lead zones, I take those who I know will follow my orders. This has nothing to do with a power trip, but more so I can feel more safe pushing the group to test their limits. To answer your statement about "my audacity to think that since you lead the most, and you've tried the hardest, your system is without flaws." I NEVER ONCE said it didn't have flaws and I think it takes even more audacity on your part to put words into my mouth that aren't true. I have never said that my system is without flaws. You guys like to complain, like I said, and is proved by yer previous statements. Your whole premise is that I'm defending my flawless system is flawed. If you actually took a few f'ing minutes to talk to me or anyone else who's followed me with my rules, you'd understand that I've more than proactive as far as finding ways to improve my system and then maybe you wouldn't just post blindly about certain topics. I do listen to what you say and I do see your points, but you cannot just assume things you don't know, it really takes yer credibility away in my eyes.

I also strongly disagree with your favoritism sentence. I have played here close to 12 years and it took damn close to 6-7years to get in my FIRST zone group because I played evil. I had to get my break from a friend who got me into the groups. I will not lead big, dangerous zones, without knowing what people are capable of. I also strongly suggest for people to ask me if anything is going on or anything they could be a part of. If the person is willing to learn and will listen to me unconditionally, then I will take them if I need them. I don't order people around just to order them around. I do it because I believe it's the best way to do a certain zone. If anyone thinks I'm doing it just to bark orders, then I don't want them to follow me. Once I know I have complete trust from my followers, things run much more smoothly and more efficiently. I see my system as paying off those loyal to me and thats exactly what I want to have happen. If these items are not bid on first round, I offer them for less points, and then if there is still eq left, I dice the rest.

I just hope you can read what you wrote about my flawless system and understand, more clearly now, why I get upset at people complaining. The only point you made that makes any sense to me is the shouting in WD. Whether I use a point system or dice, the people I ask to zone with me is the people I ask to zone with me. Those people I don't, don't go either way. It's just feeling comfortable with your regular group more than anything else. Doing this, has by the way, made my groups much more efficient in recent history.

Kifle, I'm not trying to knock on you personally, I just wish people would come to me and talk to me rather than read a post and just try to argue because they like to argue. Please feel free to send me a tell sometime to discuss this on a more private, less-emotional setting.

Turgy


Turg,

My apologies for being a little heated in that post. I had just woke up and saw your post to kiryan and I just got the wrong impression. Anyway, if I see you on, we can discuss it further if you want.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:25 pm

Maxler wrote:
Ambar wrote:
Maxler wrote:
Ambar wrote:didnt know ya left imphras to be honest .. til someone pointed it out online ...

was a coincidence .. my comment :P


if thats the case, then what could you possibly have to say to me about guild loyalty? is this yet another situation that you know nothing about. Look, before you talk negatively about someone have your facts strait.

and yes i do know that you do not zone regularly, because i would see you, and i dont. I am in a good percentage of the zones run these days, and expecially the zones led by the person whose bidding system we are discussing.


Rux drop it ...

I am on EVERY day .. do I zone? No .. dont have TIME with 2 jobs and a LIFE now :) Not zoning doesnt make a person inactive :)

LIFE .. its whats for dinner :) Try it .. it's YUMMY :)

ahh so i am right. Because you are not a regular zoner, then your input on this thread, or my guild loyalty for that matter is null and void. Please keep your uninformed comments to yourself.



damn .. little touchy arent we? that time of the month???
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:32 pm

Ambar wrote:
damn .. little touchy arent we? that time of the month???


It's s'ok. He's just a little upset, his guild joining record was never complete. Couldn't get into CC. :(
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Postby shalath » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:26 am

Ashiwi wrote:::sniffle:: We miss you, Maxi-pad.

Would you like him back? I'm sure something could be arranged...

-thalash
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:31 am

shalath wrote:
Ashiwi wrote:::sniffle:: We miss you, Maxi-pad.

Would you like him back? I'm sure something could be arranged...

-thalash


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Postby Maxler » Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:11 am

trade you thalash for cofen
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Postby Maxler » Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:14 am

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:
Ambar wrote:
damn .. little touchy arent we? that time of the month???


It's s'ok. He's just a little upset, his guild joining record was never complete. Couldn't get into CC. :(

no i just have no tolerance for people that make attacks on peoples character unprovoked, expecially when it is an attack on mine. By saying im disloyal you directly slander me. My comment to you was merely a jab to maybe nudge you to play more, you retaliated with quite a hefty blow, more so then i expected.

So please ambar, do not insult me unless you are prepared to fight it out.
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Postby Maxler » Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:15 am

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:
Ambar wrote:
damn .. little touchy arent we? that time of the month???


It's s'ok. He's just a little upset, his guild joining record was never complete. Couldn't get into CC. :(


cc was great, wish i could of been a part of it
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Postby Pril » Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:52 am

Maxler wrote:
Arilin Nydelahar wrote:
Ambar wrote:
damn .. little touchy arent we? that time of the month???


It's s'ok. He's just a little upset, his guild joining record was never complete. Couldn't get into CC. :(

no i just have no tolerance for people that make attacks on peoples character unprovoked, expecially when it is an attack on mine. By saying im disloyal you directly slander me. My comment to you was merely a jab to maybe nudge you to play more, you retaliated with quite a hefty blow, more so then i expected.

So please ambar, do not insult me unless you are prepared to fight it out.


Max, Ambar can probably take you. I'd watch what you say.
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Postby Ruxur » Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:39 am

Pril wrote:
Max, Ambar can probably take you. I'd watch what you say.


i got an idea, howbout you watch what i say. We both know im incapable of such an act.
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Postby Sarell » Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:01 am

I think Turgy's current playing, leading and efforts to split gear in a fair way that benefits the whole mud are some of the best I have seen and do our guild proud.

What gives his the edge over other systems that I have seen is that he admits he is a flawed human being like all of us, and tries to make his system completely transparent and open to a bit of interpretation and feedback. So rather than flatly refute any claims against his system, Turgy tries to make sure it runs smoothly and rightly based on his vast experience as a player and well balanced fun loving individual.
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Postby Pril » Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:04 pm

Ruxur wrote:
Pril wrote:
Max, Ambar can probably take you. I'd watch what you say.


i got an idea, howbout you watch what i say. We both know im incapable of such an act.


Dude considering half the stuff that comes out of your mouth watching what you say is a full time job. How much ya offering to pay me, and will there me medical benefits? :p
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Postby Pril » Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:05 pm

Sarell wrote:I think Turgy's current playing, leading and efforts to split gear in a fair way that benefits the whole mud are some of the best I have seen and do our guild proud.

What gives his the edge over other systems that I have seen is that he admits he is a flawed human being like all of us, and tries to make his system completely transparent and open to a bit of interpretation and feedback. So rather than flatly refute any claims against his system, Turgy tries to make sure it runs smoothly and rightly based on his vast experience as a player and well balanced fun loving individual.


Have to agree with you Pat, his is the first system that i've seen that's designed to grow and evolve into an always better one which rocks.
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Postby Larem » Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:15 pm

turg wrote: My system also has an element of trust involved.



um....well, time for me to start trouble again i guess. but, according to your system, it is there to prevent people from bidding things to trade/stuff they don't need.

Silena won marble bracer, now has it on board FT, says he only won it because you told yer guild, which he is part of, that no one bid it first round, so he switched to it..........um.....yeah, fairness is whut it's all about eh?

don't get me wrong, i have nothing against either of you, or your guild, i just have trouble understanding your definition of fairness......it's like saying that because i'm not on between 6pm and 10pm that i never play.......that's the way i see the posts going, i'm on EVERY night, when i get home from work, usually around 11:15-3am........does this make me the oddball only log on once a week type of guy? because if it does, i know several aussies who should stop zoning all together, since they are oddballs and everyone else is better than them

and why are the only people defending turg's bidding system his guildmates? :P

kifle has it right yo, so do i, bidding systems suck, ALL OF THEM
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:01 pm

Real men don't ask for a fair share, only a fair chance.

Dice it.
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Marble bracer

Postby Klandal » Tue Jul 19, 2005 9:59 pm

Larem, I'm not sure where you're getting your information on the marble bracer bids. I know for a fact that I bid the marble bracer, so it's pretty apparent to me that your information regarding its bids is inaccurate at best. Given this information, along with knowing other people also bid the bracer, it gives less weight to your example of unfairness. From talking with Silena that night he half-regretted bidding the marble bracer because he would rather have used those points for a BC bracelet, although on second thought some of his female characters couldn't use the BC one. I can't say I'm happy about his trading the bracer, but he spent a crapload of points for it, which I guess is his perogative.

You also said earlier that you didn't have a chance at winning items. "15 items and 15 people you should have a shot at one" was the jist. I guess you left early or something because after the first few big items, the prices on items was lowered where you DID have a chance to get items from the zone despite your point total.

Anyways, continue discussing away with more accurate examples of what has actually been occuring please. :)
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Postby Pril » Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:09 pm

I think we need to focus less on Turgy's bidding system and more on his smell. Damn smelly barbarians.

Pril
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:05 pm

Larem wrote:and why are the only people defending turg's bidding system his guildmates? :P


False.

I have defended it, and I am not in his guild.
Also, I was not in his previous guild either.
And on top of that, I hardly ever zoned with Turg when he was leading as an evil. We had our differences and still aren't 'buddies'.
In addition, I've maybe zoned once with Goodie Turg leading, and that was months ago.

Something else worth mentioning to you AGAIN: Turgy does not ONLY lead between 6-10pm. Sometimes he starts then, but has been known to start later as well on weekdays, and especially weekends. He also is known to zone all hours of the day and night over the weekends. I pointed this out to you initially, and politely, but I see you have decided not to acknowledge it in order to keep on with your slander crusade against him.

Did the sand get tired of your head, and your ass wanted company?
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enough

Postby turg » Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:20 pm

quoted wrong msg
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Postby turg » Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:26 pm

Larem wrote:
turg wrote: My system also has an element of trust involved.



um....well, time for me to start trouble again i guess. but, according to your system, it is there to prevent people from bidding things to trade/stuff they don't need.

Silena won marble bracer, now has it on board FT, says he only won it because you told yer guild, which he is part of, that no one bid it first round, so he switched to it..........um.....yeah, fairness is whut it's all about eh?

don't get me wrong, i have nothing against either of you, or your guild, i just have trouble understanding your definition of fairness......it's like saying that because i'm not on between 6pm and 10pm that i never play.......that's the way i see the posts going, i'm on EVERY night, when i get home from work, usually around 11:15-3am........does this make me the oddball only log on once a week type of guy? because if it does, i know several aussies who should stop zoning all together, since they are oddballs and everyone else is better than them

and why are the only people defending turg's bidding system his guildmates? :P

kifle has it right yo, so do i, bidding systems suck, ALL OF THEM



Listen, there were 3-4 bidders on the bracer. Silena wouldnt have used all of his points if this wasn't true. I absolutely did not tell Silena that he was the only bidder, nor would I practice this philosophy of "fairness" as you call it. I honestly just think you shouldn't follow me if you really feel this way. It's quite patronizing when you send me tells asking me if I need this or that like nothing is wrong, then come to this board and accuse me of cheating. I think that's really low. That's what I've told everyone here from day one. Come to me, don't complain and basically call me a cheater then try to talk to me like nothing's happened. Maybe you would have heard me say that if you didn't ungroup immediately after you lost the ring bid. Reading stuff like this makes me want to puke. I don't understand how one could talk to me and then dump something that questions my character like this......it's like a slap in the face.
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Postby Ambar » Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:11 am

Llaaldara wrote:Did the sand get tired of your head, and your ass wanted company?


This is the best line ever ... seriously I about fell out of my chair giggling

hehe thanks!!
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Postby Krazax » Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:52 am

Relax and stop dogging Turgy’s point bid system. Out of all the current methods leaders use to split gear that I’ve witnessed first hand, it’s by far my personal favorite and best that I’ve seen in action. And that’s coming from someone that’s only been playing just over 3 months now. So yeah, I’m a ‘new’ player and I’m all for it. And yeah I’m also a guy that works mad hours, between 50-70 hours a week so can’t mud all the time or during peak all the time, and still I’m all for it. I do most of my real hardcore zoning on the weekends. Yet week by week I’m still slowing building up my points. It’s slow going for me, and I can see other peoples points going up and down on stuff during a week or two, but I know in time eventually it’ll by my turn to get something I really need and want. Plus sometimes I’ll be in a Turgy group and I’ll have more points then most (which usually isn’t much) and could easily walk away with something, but I save my points and wait for that item that comes a long that I really want instead of just grabbing sh*t here and there every time like everyone does in every other group.

I dig his system because it lets me know that the time and effort I give to Turg has been appreciated by him personally. That taking my valuable personal time I actually decide to log into this MUD isn’t for nothing by going by completely unappreciated. Ultimately I am acquiring something better then EQ. I am not in Turgy’s guild, nor any guild for that matter (something I’m damn proud of), and still think his system is the best one out there.

Now there’s 2 things I’d like to say about Turg in particular that deserve to said.
One is: He’s a damn nice guy worth of your respect. As a new player, someone who didn’t know who I was, he was the first zone leader to take me zoning regularly. And I mean regularly, not that once in a blue moon crap. I treated Turgy no differently then any other zone leader, and still don’t. I did, and do, the same exact things with him I do with anyone else to this day. Yet he is the only one who ever went out of his way to really say “thank you” and meant it. He is the only one that developed a system to thank players who play like myself. That is, players that come without question, checks their ego at the door, does as he/she is told without complaint, stays at the keys at all times, and does their job as best as they possibly can. He’s actually come up to me and personally thanked me just for playing like this. No one else has done that either, even leaders that dragged me thru horrible spankfests or blinding leader stupidity.
Two is: Turgy has made himself open and available to discuss his point system regularly. I have approached him a few times to discuss it and make suggestions. He’s been seriously cool and listened, and I’ve listened equally back to his points and opinions. I didn’t initially like his system, but out of respect to a guy that has been so cool to myself as well as others, I decided to give his system the benefit of the doubt. And since the last time I chatted about it with him, I’ve only grown to appreciate his system more and more, as well as the man himself.

Don't let these haters get you down Turgy, you just keep on kicking ass bro. :)
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:08 am

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:
Ambar wrote:
damn .. little touchy arent we? that time of the month???


It's s'ok. He's just a little upset, his guild joining record was never complete. Couldn't get into CC. :(


hahahahaha CC membership = +leetpoints
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Postby kwirl » Sat Jul 23, 2005 3:38 am

I realize I have been gone a long time, but I really miss you guys.

I have a question for the leaders - is there a way I can schedule or make time to know when I would be needed for a zone?

I am a level 47 enchanter with scales, but I am not very good at sitting online hoping someone invites me somewhere. I don't have the time I did when I was younger, but thanks to my injuries, I can now afford to spend *some* time online, and would really like to zone again.

I don't have much in the way of EQ, but I have some saving throws and over 300 hit points as a human enchanter. I can be a smartass, but I'm good at taking orders. I don't remember the elite skills I used to have, but if you tell me what to do I will do my best, and follow orders. I won't complain about anything I get in a zone, even though my infrequent availability means dicing would normally be better for me, but I'll try something new.

I respect anyone who leads, and moreso anyone who has the faith to allow me to participate in what I consider a few hours spent having fun with friends.

Basically, I want to know if any of you would want me along, I especially like doing the old basic zones that you guys consider 'easy' - like IC, Original Jot, TF, SF, stuff like that.

Thanks, email me at kwirlkarphys@gmail.com, or my AIM and YIM is kwirlkarphys.

hell, call me at home if you want - 302-294-8504.

Love you all, regardless if im wanted around

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