I bet most of you wont read the whole thing..

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
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Postby rylan » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:54 pm

Corth wins
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Postby Ruxur » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:03 pm

corth has been the most logical person to reply to this.
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Postby Latreg » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:42 pm

Ruxur wrote:corth has been the most logical person to reply to this.


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Postby Gormal » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:09 pm

All of the chalkboard physics and demolition scenarios in the world cannot possibly compare to the actual occurrence of a jumbo jet smashing into a building like that. No matter how good or bad something looks on paper, there's just no way to know how its going to work until it happens. The world hasn't ever experienced anything like the WTC before, so no matter how good someone is at physics, they can't possibly predict or reconstruct all of the things that went on at the time.

People that are supporting these conspiracy theories are using circumstantial evidence and opinions to condemn the government for some outlandish and preposterous cover-up. Its too bad Mulder is gone or he'd have this one wrapped up in a jiffy.
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Postby Botef » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:36 pm

Corth wrote:Tasan,

Occam's razor.

Two possible scenarios. Which one is more likely on their face?

A) Terrorist flies big plane into building. Building collapses.

B) Shadowy figures in the US Government conspire to destroy two of the largest most important structures in new york, killing over 3,000 people and sending the economy into a recession, in order to justify going to war in afghanistan and Iraq and having thousands more people killed there, for an unknown motive. In order to hide their complicity, they arrange an amazing spectacle of having two seemingly jumbo airplanes (but quite possibly small cesnas) crash into the buildings 45 minutes or so before the controlled detonation, and in doing so, they fool thousands of eyewitnesses, and billions of people watching it on TV, into thinking the airplanes caused the destruction of the buildings.

A questions about the second scenario. If the shadowy figures in the US government do not care about destruction of property and death, and the impact this all had on our economy, then how come a controlled demolition? Wouldn't it be easier to just mimick the previous 1993 plot with a larger explosive and bring down the building quickly and apparently more plausibly? Why goto the trouble of concealing hundreds of smaller charges throughout the buildings (using, presumably, a whole lot of manpower who are now involved in the conspiracy), rather than just doing it terrorist style?

Its unfortunate.. but the fact that this is even subject to any type of serious debate is a victory for leftist tin foil hat / european conspiracy lunacy, and also indicates that people think what they see in hollywood movies actually happens in real life. Get real!


Whether I believe our government was involved or not, there certainly is a lot of interesting occurences prior to 9/11 that made quite a lot of people a lot of money in the end...For one, WTC towers were leased just a few months before 9/11 with a special insurance policy taken out that granted the owner billions of dollars in event of what else, A terrorist attack...Mind you WTC was subjected to a terrorist attack years earlier and this kind of insurance policy makes sense, it certainly was convient timing as the owner made more money than he would have if he had not leased the building before hand. What further makes it intriuging is how much finacial information was lost in WTC, protecting anyone who could have been engaged in some kind of profit scheme or illegitmate trading and from what I've read there was quite a bit of unusual/abnormal trading activity, particularly in regards to airlines/avionics (Boeing, Delta, Etc), a few hours before the first plane hit...Whether our government did have a hand in it or not isnt something I wonder about much....The idea that this was infact the US pulling a trick over the people is certainly tin foil worthy. But I have no trouble believing that its possible that people within our government (NOTE I said people, not our government as a whole) knew before hand what would happen, and used this to their own finacial advantage...Yea our economy sucks now, but anyone who had pre conceived knowledge of this could have made a butt load from insurance claims on WTC, stock trading, etc, and covered their tracks in the process...We've already seen how badly our current administration is about leeking classified information, and the connections between those who were in a place to make a lot of money, and those in a position to be 'in the know' before hand leaves me wondering.

Think for a moment, the financial gains that could be made from having pre-knowledge of this kind of catastrophe before hand and the kind of things one could do utilizing insurance, stock trading, etc...Its not hard to imagine the kind of fiancial gains one could make from knowing WTC could/would collapse, that airlines would come to a stand still, and that much of the finacial information housed in the towers that would link them to it, not to mention the heaps of case records and evidence housed in WTC7, would be destroyed. I think its most certainly within reason to question our own government officials credibility in an investigation such as this, and this kind of shady politics is exactly the kind of thing people would go great lengths to cover up...The linking of 9/11 as being preemptive grounds for invading afgahnistan/iraq, etc is silly...but the idea that there was some kind of cover up/lack of information because of some kind entangled intrests and shady fiancial gains from pre-9/11 knowledge seems very plausiable and worth investigation.

US Gov Officals planning and blowing up WTC? Highly Doubtful

US Gov Officials having knowledge of 9/11 before hand and using ithis knowledge to make money, and conviently cover their tracks with the destruction of those records in WTC? Very plausable. It doesn't mean our Government did it, it just means they knew before hand and instead of trying to stop it used it to make money...Human beings are greedy, and I really don't think its that far fetched to question whether or not something like this happened.

I tried very hard to avoid posting in here because I've given up debating this as the views of those who question the validity of the investigation vary so much you cant avoid being labled a wack job by association. But I certainly have my doubts in the legitimacy of our own investigation and why we failed to acknowledge the possibility of some kind of foul play, particularly in regards to people 'in the know' using their knowledge of 9/11 before hand to make money under the table.

I don't think our government is out doing terrorist work to support some global agenda of world domination...I don't think they flew the planes into WTC, I dont think they blew them up, I dont think GWB is behind it...But I do question why there is such a lack of information and cooperation in regards to 9/11, and I think history is record enough that our politicians will goto great lengths for money, and even greater lengths to protect their own asses. There are a lot of unanwsered questions that lead me to believe someone(s) made a lot of money at the expense of the American people from pre9/11 knowledge. Our country is driven by our Coorporate super powers and our government, and I think its very reasonable to question whether the two entities worked together to make a ton of money rather than stopping this kind of plot in its tracks like it should have been...
Last edited by Botef on Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:15 pm

Corth wrote:Tasan,

Occam's razor.

Two possible scenarios. Which one is more likely on their face?

A) Terrorist flies big plane into building. Building collapses.


A building that was by all means designed to withstand said impact. The engineers of the building specifically designed it for that.

Corth wrote:B) Shadowy figures in the US Government conspire to destroy two of the largest most important structures in new york, killing over 3,000 people and sending the economy into a recession, in order to justify going to war in afghanistan and Iraq and having thousands more people killed there, for an unknown motive.


More evidence you haven't a clue what you are talking about. Read up on the various reports that are freely available about what happened in the few months leading up to the destruction of the buildings. The war wasn't the only thing these people wanted, obviously money was involved as it always is.

Corth wrote:In order to hide their complicity, they arrange an amazing spectacle of having two seemingly jumbo airplanes (but quite possibly small cesnas) crash into the buildings 45 minutes or so before the controlled detonation, and in doing so, they fool thousands of eyewitnesses, and billions of people watching it on TV, into thinking the airplanes caused the destruction of the buildings.


By manipulating the information given to the media and keeping most of the evidence out of the public's eye. Which is exactly what has happened.

7WTC didn't get a plane crashed into it, why'd it fall?

Corth wrote:A questions about the second scenario. If the shadowy figures in the US government do not care about destruction of property and death, and the impact this all had on our economy, then how come a controlled demolition? Wouldn't it be easier to just mimick the previous 1993 plot with a larger explosive and bring down the building quickly and apparently more plausibly?


You honestly would believe that a bomb detonated from the basement of the tower would bring it down wholesale, and moreso than the scenario of the planes bringing it down? How much physics background do you have? How much does the average American have?

Corth wrote:Why goto the trouble of concealing hundreds of smaller charges throughout the buildings (using, presumably, a whole lot of manpower who are now involved in the conspiracy), rather than just doing it terrorist style?


Last time I checked, it didn't take more than a couple people to place thermite anywhere. Thermite doesn't even need to be used on a large scale to cause destruction.

Corth wrote:Its unfortunate.. but the fact that this is even subject to any type of serious debate is a victory for leftist tin foil hat / european conspiracy lunacy, and also indicates that people think what they see in hollywood movies actually happens in real life. Get real!


It's unfortunate you take things at face value and don't stop to interpret the many facts related to the incident that point to much more than a random terrorist act. I am not a full-fledged believer in a plot by the government to destroy the buildings, but I do think it knew about the coming attack and did basically nothing to hinder it. Doesn't that idea bother you a bit?

You never consider the numerous inconsistencies which go along with the entire scenario. You don't refute any of the monetary evidence. Instead you pass it off as being totally inplausible. Who's really wearing the tin-foil hat? Those who would believe what they were spoon-fed from the government are in no position to be labeling people as lunatics.

Oh what a wonderful world we live in where people accept what they see in the news as fact.
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Postby muma » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:58 pm

Corth wrote:
A) Terrorist flies big plane into building. Building collapses.



You mean terrorists funded by the american government! ha! everyone knows the american government gave millions to the taliban long before this happened, and to Usama bin laden. and the CIA put saddam hussein in power.

sure they try and cover it up by saying it was just a mistake, but i tell you it was intentional. everything was set up to create reasons to go to war.
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also

Postby muma » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:02 am

those WTC towers were old and ready to go. so the gov't or whoever is in power decided to have them blown up when they needed the excuse to attack the middle east.
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ok one last thing

Postby muma » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:14 am

alright, i think i've posted too much already, but

i think some of you just don't want to accept that a government, or some very powerful people, could do something so evil.

but yes there really are people out there in the world that could care less about killing people. even their own kind. there's hitmen, murderers and rapists, child molesters. people selling sex slaves, serial killers(mostly in america). all these things really do exist in the world. even if you only see it in the movies. i have proof that the government could care less about the expense of people's lives. W A R. you saw it in the news, you know about vietnam. our country thrives off of war.

Just take a look at what this country was founded off of. the blood of the native americans. the american government slaughtered them. and stole their land.
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Postby Ambar » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:44 am

Muma and her conspiracy theories shall rule the world :)

I personally do not know what happened, I just have lost of questions ..

Do I believe it was demolition? Hhehehe hell no, but I have far too many questions to be answered before I entirely believe anything

Amazing how much stock was *put* on the airlines weeks, hrs, days before 9/11 .. amazing how many flights were canceled for that day, amazing how many travel plans were cancelled by key people for that day ..
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Postby Gormal » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:49 am

With how badly the government failed to react to the 9/11 scenario initially, it wouldn't surprise me if they did a lot to cover their mistakes and that has led to this confusion and all of these accusations. There's no way that we've suddenly been sucked into TV Land and we need Jack Bauer to save the world.
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Postby Kifle » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:56 am

Tasan wrote:
Corth wrote:Tasan,

Occam's razor.

Two possible scenarios. Which one is more likely on their face?

A) Terrorist flies big plane into building. Building collapses.


A building that was by all means designed to withstand said impact. The engineers of the building specifically designed it for that.

Corth wrote:B) Shadowy figures in the US Government conspire to destroy two of the largest most important structures in new york, killing over 3,000 people and sending the economy into a recession, in order to justify going to war in afghanistan and Iraq and having thousands more people killed there, for an unknown motive.


More evidence you haven't a clue what you are talking about. Read up on the various reports that are freely available about what happened in the few months leading up to the destruction of the buildings. The war wasn't the only thing these people wanted, obviously money was involved as it always is.

Corth wrote:In order to hide their complicity, they arrange an amazing spectacle of having two seemingly jumbo airplanes (but quite possibly small cesnas) crash into the buildings 45 minutes or so before the controlled detonation, and in doing so, they fool thousands of eyewitnesses, and billions of people watching it on TV, into thinking the airplanes caused the destruction of the buildings.


By manipulating the information given to the media and keeping most of the evidence out of the public's eye. Which is exactly what has happened.

7WTC didn't get a plane crashed into it, why'd it fall?

Corth wrote:A questions about the second scenario. If the shadowy figures in the US government do not care about destruction of property and death, and the impact this all had on our economy, then how come a controlled demolition? Wouldn't it be easier to just mimick the previous 1993 plot with a larger explosive and bring down the building quickly and apparently more plausibly?


You honestly would believe that a bomb detonated from the basement of the tower would bring it down wholesale, and moreso than the scenario of the planes bringing it down? How much physics background do you have? How much does the average American have?

Corth wrote:Why goto the trouble of concealing hundreds of smaller charges throughout the buildings (using, presumably, a whole lot of manpower who are now involved in the conspiracy), rather than just doing it terrorist style?


Last time I checked, it didn't take more than a couple people to place thermite anywhere. Thermite doesn't even need to be used on a large scale to cause destruction.

Corth wrote:Its unfortunate.. but the fact that this is even subject to any type of serious debate is a victory for leftist tin foil hat / european conspiracy lunacy, and also indicates that people think what they see in hollywood movies actually happens in real life. Get real!


It's unfortunate you take things at face value and don't stop to interpret the many facts related to the incident that point to much more than a random terrorist act. I am not a full-fledged believer in a plot by the government to destroy the buildings, but I do think it knew about the coming attack and did basically nothing to hinder it. Doesn't that idea bother you a bit?

You never consider the numerous inconsistencies which go along with the entire scenario. You don't refute any of the monetary evidence. Instead you pass it off as being totally inplausible. Who's really wearing the tin-foil hat? Those who would believe what they were spoon-fed from the government are in no position to be labeling people as lunatics.

Oh what a wonderful world we live in where people accept what they see in the news as fact.


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Postby sok » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:29 pm

Latreg wrote:
Ruxur wrote:corth has been the most logical person to reply to this.


wear your tinfoil hat and you'll see the truth, the good news is the Aliens are here to help us, they have a book "How to serve Man"


RUN!!! ITS A COOKBOOK!
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Postby sok » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:56 pm

Living in New Orleans, now homeless of course, but thats another story.

I believe the government knew about the hurricane before hand, and decided to use that knowledge to profit from a destroy city; instead, of trying to stop it.

I mean all those local, state & federal agencies basically doing nothing, is an obvious sign that they were in the know and let the levy be destroy because of the insurance payout they took out on the city.

I'm sure they thought the levy was old and knew that if it was destroyed, federal money would be send their way to build a bigger and better levy. Those lying, cheating, hurricane fiancing, mudding government officials. Damn them, damn them all to avernus!

sok

ps i do not live in new orleans; but none the less, am still homeless.
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Postby Botef » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:30 pm

sok wrote:Living in New Orleans, now homeless of course, but thats another story.

I believe the government knew about the hurricane before hand, and decided to use that knowledge to profit from a destroy city; instead, of trying to stop it.

I mean all those local, state & federal agencies basically doing nothing, is an obvious sign that they were in the know and let the levy be destroy because of the insurance payout they took out on the city.

I'm sure they thought the levy was old and knew that if it was destroyed, federal money would be send their way to build a bigger and better levy. Those lying, cheating, hurricane fiancing, mudding government officials. Damn them, damn them all to avernus!

sok

ps i do not live in new orleans; but none the less, am still homeless.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Best Reply Yet
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:01 pm

Tasan wrote:
Corth wrote:Tasan,

Occam's razor.

Two possible scenarios. Which one is more likely on their face?

A) Terrorist flies big plane into building. Building collapses.


A building that was by all means designed to withstand said impact. The engineers of the building specifically designed it for that.



HAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH ahem HHAHhahahahhaahhh
ha

hahah


hahahhhhh and in case i wasn't clear - ha
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Postby Latreg » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:33 pm

sok wrote:Living in New Orleans, now homeless of course, but thats another story.

I believe the government knew about the hurricane before hand, and decided to use that knowledge to profit from a destroy city; instead, of trying to stop it.

I mean all those local, state & federal agencies basically doing nothing, is an obvious sign that they were in the know and let the levy be destroy because of the insurance payout they took out on the city.

I'm sure they thought the levy was old and knew that if it was destroyed, federal money would be send their way to build a bigger and better levy. Those lying, cheating, hurricane fiancing, mudding government officials. Damn them, damn them all to avernus!

sok

ps i do not live in new orleans; but none the less, am still homeless.


Oh man some co-workers just looked at me for laughing.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:46 pm

And Sok takes the lead!
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Postby Tasan » Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:31 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Tasan wrote:
Corth wrote:Tasan,

Occam's razor.

Two possible scenarios. Which one is more likely on their face?

A) Terrorist flies big plane into building. Building collapses.


A building that was by all means designed to withstand said impact. The engineers of the building specifically designed it for that.



HAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH ahem HHAHhahahahhaahhh
ha

hahah


hahahhhhh and in case i wasn't clear - ha


Look, a classic Teflor response. No merit, no substance and he even has to explain himself one last time. C'mon, get the last word in! We know you need to.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:20 am

Tasan wrote:No merit, no substance and he even has to explain himself one last time.


Tasan, the Great Mythical Hypocrite.

Where is your merit? Where is your substance? Nice try explaining yourself one last time. Sorry Tasan, but you're laughable and there's nothing I can do about how ridiculous you are.

You presented claims that are most obviously bogus and back it up with all of zero sources or even a link to a website.

At least Daggaz's "peer-reviewed journal" came with a www.something.com website.

The only things typical here are your sourceless, factless, and bumbling responses.

Don't blame me for laughing, you put on a good show.

Tasan wrote:A building that was by all means designed to withstand said impact. The engineers of the building specifically designed it for that.


How was I supposed to know this wasn't supposed to be a joke? It's meritless, substanceless, and overall quite wrong. I'm sorry, but I thought I was doing you a favor laughing at it.

You're really funny Tasan. I love it when you talk about yourself when you think you're talking about me.
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Postby Gormal » Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:11 pm

This was a pretty good debate thread until the flamewar...
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Postby Ambar » Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:04 pm

People take things personally where they should not, then they proceed to defend themself .. aint it grand
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:13 pm

Yay! Another thread going down the craphole due to personal attacks! Quick! Where's dartan and one of his ascii drawings?!
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Postby Callarduran » Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:56 pm

I agree. Please, continue the discussion, but cut the flames.
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Postby sok » Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:05 pm

bump
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Postby Corth » Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:11 pm

Holy self-policing. I am impressed!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Lalsed » Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:43 am

So just to comment on this, I actually attend BYU.

I'm a philosophy major and plan on a physics minor, since that's what I started out in. I had a class from this professor a few years ago, and he's a nice guy but kind of weird. Seventy-five percent and above in the class that I took was an A, maybe that gives you some insight.

Anyways, talking of the person who wrote the article really has nothing to do with whether or not it's right or wrong though, so whatever.

We also talked about this in a philosophy of language class. In my opinion it's a far out conclusion he reaches. So like Corth said, which scenario is more likely?

So whatever, figured I'd comment, it's been a while hasn't it?

No one probably remembers me anyways.
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Postby Dalar » Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:10 am

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:Yay! Another thread going down the craphole due to personal attacks! Quick! Where's dartan and one of his ascii drawings?!


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Postby Tasan » Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:12 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Tasan wrote:No merit, no substance and he even has to explain himself one last time.


Tasan, the Great Mythical Hypocrite.

Where is your merit? Where is your substance? Nice try explaining yourself one last time. Sorry Tasan, but you're laughable and there's nothing I can do about how ridiculous you are.

You presented claims that are most obviously bogus and back it up with all of zero sources or even a link to a website.

At least Daggaz's "peer-reviewed journal" came with a www.something.com website.

The only things typical here are your sourceless, factless, and bumbling responses.

Don't blame me for laughing, you put on a good show.

Tasan wrote:A building that was by all means designed to withstand said impact. The engineers of the building specifically designed it for that.


How was I supposed to know this wasn't supposed to be a joke? It's meritless, substanceless, and overall quite wrong. I'm sorry, but I thought I was doing you a favor laughing at it.

You're really funny Tasan. I love it when you talk about yourself when you think you're talking about me.



HAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH ahem HHAHhahahahhaahhh
ha

hahah


hahahhhhh and in case i wasn't clear - ha

teflor the ranger wrote:So, where are the non-standard parts they found? Also, about the wings: aluminum is quite flimsy when it's being used to hold thousands of pounds of jet fuel. Aluminum also has a rather low melting point.



You presented claims that are most obviously bogus and back it up with all of zero sources or even a link to a website, oh wait you did post this website(http://www.jokaroo.com/extremevideos/plane_vs_wall.html) which obviously ranks quite high in the scientific field on the matter!

I'm sorry for not providing direct links to sources, you yourself said that:

teflor the ranger wrote:You would assume that you are the only person 'special' enough to have come across said article before.


So I figured obviously you had read thousands of such articles and were well-versed on the subject. Sorry for taking your own words for granted!


With that said, I can understand where my statement could be nitpicked. The planes that hit the towers were 767's, not 707's so I guess you can get all technical and take a shit on that but seriously, this is a public forum not a scientific fucking collaborative.

Oh and proof:
Lead Structural Engineer wrote:The two towers were the first structures outside of the military and nuclear industries designed to resist the impact of a jet airliner, the Boeing 707. It was assumed that the jetliner would be lost in the fog, seeking to land at JFK or at Newark. To the best of our knowledge, little was known about the effects of a fire from such an aircraft, and no designs were prepared for that circumstance. Indeed, at that time, no fireproofing systems were available to control the effects of such fires.


http://www.nae.edu/nae/bridgecom.nsf/we ... enDocument

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Postby Gormal » Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:47 pm

Lalsed wrote:No one probably remembers me anyways.


You wield a short short.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:13 pm

Tasan wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:So, where are the non-standard parts they found? Also, about the wings: aluminum is quite flimsy when it's being used to hold thousands of pounds of jet fuel. Aluminum also has a rather low melting point.



You presented claims that are most obviously bogus and back it up with all of zero sources or even a link to a website, oh wait you did post this website(http://www.jokaroo.com/extremevideos/plane_vs_wall.html) which obviously ranks quite high in the scientific field on the matter!


This is because all of the information I presented is true and easily confirmed - very different from the information you presented, that is to say wrong and not able to be confirmed. And in case you didn't get the difference yet, it's not a claim when it's a scientific fact.

Tasan wrote:I'm sorry for not providing direct links to sources, you yourself said that:

teflor the ranger wrote:You would assume that you are the only person 'special' enough to have come across said article before.


So I figured obviously you had read thousands of such articles and were well-versed on the subject. Sorry for taking your own words for granted!


The melting point of aluminum is a well known scientific measurement of roughly 660 degrees C, a temperature well exceeded by maximum burning temperature of jet fuel. Only a fool would flap his arms about not having linked to that information.

Tasan wrote:With that said, I can understand where my statement could be nitpicked. The planes that hit the towers were 767's, not 707's so I guess you can get all technical and take a shit on that but seriously, this is a public forum not a scientific fucking collaborative.


Excuse me, nitpicked?

A 767 IS TWICE THE SIZE OF A 707, HAVING NEARLY TWICE THE MAX TAKEOFF WEIGHT, A 50 FOOT WIDER WINGSPAN, AND BEING NEARLY 80 FEET LONGER.

Nitpicked? It's the difference between getting hit by a Honda Civic and a Chevrolet Suburban.

Again:

hahaha, and you deserve it double.

Research, try it sometime.
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Postby Corth » Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:18 pm

Lead Structural Engineer wrote:The two towers were the first structures outside of the military and nuclear industries designed to resist the impact of a jet airliner, the Boeing 707. It was assumed that the jetliner would be lost in the fog, seeking to land at JFK or at Newark. To the best of our knowledge, little was known about the effects of a fire from such an aircraft, and no designs were prepared for that circumstance. Indeed, at that time, no fireproofing systems were available to control the effects of such fires.


Sounds like it worked exactly as planned. The buildings survived the impact.. but did not survive the extreme heat from the fire.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby rylan » Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:21 pm

OMG Lalsed posted!
How've you been?

Oh and btw, it was on the news numerous times after 9/11 how the towers were designed to withstand a 707, which was at the time of construction the largest thing that had a chance of crashing into it. As mentioned, a 767 is substantially larger and therefore carried a much greater amount of energy in both kinetic and potential energy (fuel) upon impact.
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Postby Tasan » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:18 am

teflor the ranger wrote:This is because all of the information I presented is true and easily confirmed - very different from the information you presented, that is to say wrong and not able to be confirmed. And in case you didn't get the difference yet, it's not a claim when it's a scientific fact.


All the information you posted came from a website that doesn't have any scientific merit at all, not to mention this:

Designation: Boeing 707-320
Type: Strategic Tanker, Transport and VIP
Contractor: Boeing
Origin: United States
Service Date: 1955
Accommodation: 3 + 190
Length: 152.92 feet
Wingspan: 145.71 feet
Weight (Empty): 146,000 lbs
MTOW: 333,600 lbs

Designation: Boeing 767-300
Type: Intermediate Range Passenger Transport
Contractor: Boeing
Origin: United States
Service Date: 1981
Accommodation: 9 + 290
Length: 180.25 feet
Wingspan: 156.08 feet
Weight (Empty): 191,700 lbs
MTOW: 351,000 lbs

Your "scientific facts" seem to be a bit off.

My point wasn't that these buildings were designed to take some sort of precalculated down to the last ounce of weight crash. As I stated before, this isn't a forum of engineers, and the fact that the building was the first designed for a plane impact was what I was getting at.

Congrats on finding yet another thread to ruin.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:22 am

Tasan wrote:Designation: Boeing 707-320
Type: Strategic Tanker, Transport and VIP
Contractor: Boeing
Origin: United States
Service Date: 1955
Accommodation: 3 + 190
Length: 152.92 feet
Wingspan: 145.71 feet
Weight (Empty): 146,000 lbs
MTOW: 333,600 lbs


This is the rarest of the model 707s, and not what was used when considering what may happen to the building.

Congratulations on picking the largest 707 and the smaller 767. (Because strategic tankers land so often at JFK, lost in a fog).

Tasan wrote:Designation: Boeing 767-300
Type: Intermediate Range Passenger Transport
Contractor: Boeing
Origin: United States
Service Date: 1981
Accommodation: 9 + 290
Length: 180.25 feet
Wingspan: 156.08 feet
Weight (Empty): 191,700 lbs
MTOW: 351,000 lbs

Your "scientific facts" seem to be a bit off.


Boeing 767-400ER

Wingspan: 170' 4"
Length: 201' 4"
Maximum Takeoff Weight: 450,000 pounds

Boeing 707-120B

Wingspan 129' 8"
Length 127' 10"
Maximum Takeoff Weight: 257,000 pounds


They're not off, you just have no idea about what you are talking about.


Tasan wrote:My point wasn't that these buildings were designed to take some sort of precalculated down to the last ounce of weight crash. As I stated before, this isn't a forum of engineers, and the fact that the building was the first designed for a plane impact was what I was getting at.

Congrats on finding yet another thread to ruin.


I hate to say it, but junk science, junk research, and your junk post ruins threads. The World Trade Center was never designed to take on modern aircraft at speeds exceeding 400mph.

READ CAREFULLY >>>>>

The World Trade Center towers were designed to resist the impact of a 707 traveling at a landing speed (about 120 mph or so, look it up) 'lost in the fog, seeking to land at JFK or at Newark.' Resist does not by any engineer's standards read as to absorb or to remain standing, but simply to resist complete structural collapse for some amount of time (read as: it's coming down, just not right away).


The actual planes that crashed into the WTC towers were Boeing 767-200 model family planes.

Wingspan: 156' 1"
Length: 159' 2"
Maximum Takeoff Weight: 395,000 pounds

Still substantially larger, more massive, and structurally more ridgid than all the 707's.

It only takes 60 seconds to do research before you post. You should try it sometime, or not take offense when you're pointed out for being ridiculous.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:08 am

different models of the same aircraft have different measurements, weights, payload, passenger capacity, etc :)

think thats what he was trying to say only mine is in nicer terms :)
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Postby Tasan » Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:45 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:This is the rarest of the model 707s, and not what was used when considering what may happen to the building.

Congratulations on picking the largest 707 and the smaller 767. (Because strategic tankers land so often at JFK, lost in a fog).


Well if you'd actually done any research at all into the statements made by people about what they saw that day, you'd realize that more than a few pointed out that a military 707 was more likely the type of aircraft that hit the building, NOT the model the gov't would have us believe. Does that make it a correct statement? No, but that is the damned point. There is doubt involved.

So you were using the 400... which isn't the right model either... where were ya going with that information? Hypocrite.

Tasan wrote:My point wasn't that these buildings were designed to take some sort of precalculated down to the last ounce of weight crash. As I stated before, this isn't a forum of engineers, and the fact that the building was the first designed for a plane impact was what I was getting at.

Congrats on finding yet another thread to ruin.


teflor the ranger wrote:I hate to say it, but junk science, junk research, and your junk post ruins threads. The World Trade Center was never designed to take on modern aircraft at speeds exceeding 400mph.


I hate to say it but yer still missing the point. I didn't say "They totally designed this building against a terror attack on 9/11 involving to commercial aircraft models of 707-120s!". I certainly didn't say "The World Trade Center was designed to take on modern aircraft at speeds exceeding 400mph." READ CAREFULLY INDEED.

teflor the ranger wrote:The actual planes that crashed into the WTC towers were Boeing 767-200 model family planes.

It only takes 60 seconds to do research before you post. You should try it sometime, or not take offense when you're pointed out for being ridiculous.


I'm sorry, were you flying on one of those planes? Because last time I checked, and this is a FACT, neither of the planes could be identified accurately. So for you to sit here and tell me you know it's a scientific fact is mildly amusing. Please write your own "paper" on your findings so everyone else in the world knows exactly what happened, since you seem to know and not another soul does.

Being rediculous boils down to thinking you are so greatly superior to everyone else that you know exactly what happened when even the people closest to the evidence don't rightly have all the facts.

I wasn't taking offense at anything but your inability to do a simple thing like read a statement for what it was and not read what you wanted to see.

Please refrain from ever quoting me or replying to me again. Your primitive mind wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and... things with... molecular structures. You are obviously incapable of doing so, so I won't hold my breath.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:49 am

Tasan wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:This is the rarest of the model 707s, and not what was used when considering what may happen to the building.

Congratulations on picking the largest 707 and the smaller 767. (Because strategic tankers land so often at JFK, lost in a fog).


Well if you'd actually done any research at all into the statements made by people about what they saw that day, you'd realize that more than a few pointed out that a military 707 was more likely the type of aircraft that hit the building, NOT the model the gov't would have us believe. Does that make it a correct statement? No, but that is the damned point. There is doubt involved.

So you were using the 400... which isn't the right model either... where were ya going with that information? Hypocrite.

Tasan wrote:My point wasn't that these buildings were designed to take some sort of precalculated down to the last ounce of weight crash. As I stated before, this isn't a forum of engineers, and the fact that the building was the first designed for a plane impact was what I was getting at.

Congrats on finding yet another thread to ruin.


teflor the ranger wrote:I hate to say it, but junk science, junk research, and your junk post ruins threads. The World Trade Center was never designed to take on modern aircraft at speeds exceeding 400mph.


I hate to say it but yer still missing the point. I didn't say "They totally designed this building against a terror attack on 9/11 involving to commercial aircraft models of 707-120s!". I certainly didn't say "The World Trade Center was designed to take on modern aircraft at speeds exceeding 400mph." READ CAREFULLY INDEED.

teflor the ranger wrote:The actual planes that crashed into the WTC towers were Boeing 767-200 model family planes.

It only takes 60 seconds to do research before you post. You should try it sometime, or not take offense when you're pointed out for being ridiculous.


I'm sorry, were you flying on one of those planes? Because last time I checked, and this is a FACT, neither of the planes could be identified accurately. So for you to sit here and tell me you know it's a scientific fact is mildly amusing. Please write your own "paper" on your findings so everyone else in the world knows exactly what happened, since you seem to know and not another soul does.

Being rediculous boils down to thinking you are so greatly superior to everyone else that you know exactly what happened when even the people closest to the evidence don't rightly have all the facts.

I wasn't taking offense at anything but your inability to do a simple thing like read a statement for what it was and not read what you wanted to see.

Please refrain from ever quoting me or replying to me again. Your primitive mind wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and... things with... molecular structures. You are obviously incapable of doing so, so I won't hold my breath.


The funny thing is that the only item I was wrong on was my own error in memory. I falsely remembered that the planes were 767-400's when they were indeed 767-200's. Which, I might add, I caught with my own research, and all my other comments about the considerable size and mass differential still apply.

You are a tinfoil hat whack job who's primitive mind cannot comprehend what goes on in the real world. Nevermind all the people who were lost on Flights 11 and 175, their families, the mechanics that worked on the planes, the people who fueled them, or the ground based radar at several airports who were simultaneously tracking the flights from ground to their ultimate destination. (and the fact that the planes can be identified as 767's from video played on major news outlets). For that matter, the military has 767's as well as 707's, and could just easily have used actual 767's.

Being rediculous boils down to thinking you are so greatly superior to everyone else that you know exactly what happened when even the people closest to the evidence don't rightly have all the facts.

I wasn't taking offense at anything but your inability to do a simple thing like read a statement for what it was and not read what you wanted to see. (Which I'm not exactly taking offense at anything, but I had the urge to feed you your own lines.)

Congrats on finding another thread to ruin with your unsupported conspiracy theories.

By the way, another admission of mine: I am missing your point, but I don't see that you actually have one.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:55 am

teflor the ranger wrote:The funny thing is that the only item I was wrong on was my own error in memory.


Whoa, he admitted fault... I just lost a dollar...

to myself.

My legacy is complete! Whackjobs, mount up!

Idiot trap completed. Go back to your regularly scheduled picture posting.

Nothing to see here.

This space intentionally filled with more nonsense.

Tralalalala!
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:36 am

Tasan wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:The funny thing is that the only item I was wrong on was my own error in memory.


Whoa, he admitted fault... I just lost a dollar...

to myself.

My legacy is complete! Whackjobs, mount up!

Idiot trap completed. Go back to your regularly scheduled picture posting.

Nothing to see here.

This space intentionally filled with more nonsense.

Tralalalala!


One day, you may be right about something.
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Postby Ambar » Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:47 am

must ... have .. the .. last .. word .. :(


buttered popcorn please! and mmm Bass beer on tap! Thank you!
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:41 am

Remarks and Comments to posts beginning from the most recent.


Tasan wrote:A building that was by all means designed to withstand said impact.


First of all, wrong.

Second of all, wrong by your own words: "designed to resist the impact of a jet airliner, the Boeing 707. It was assumed that the jetliner would be lost in the fog, seeking to land at JFK or at Newark."

The plane in question was a Boeing 767, a larger, and much more massive airplane not lost but plummeting into the WTC towers at 400 miles per hour.

Tasan wrote:7WTC didn't get a plane crashed into it, why'd it fall?


Structural damage.

Tasan wrote:You honestly would believe that a bomb detonated from the basement of the tower would bring it down wholesale, and moreso than the scenario of the planes bringing it down?


Yes. The columns are merely steel (a very tough steel, but steel none the less). Demolitions experts have commented that they would take the building down that way. It's in the document at the beginning of this thread.

Tasan wrote:Last time I checked, it didn't take more than a couple people to place thermite anywhere. Thermite doesn't even need to be used on a large scale to cause destruction.


It does when you're talking about the WTC towers. You'd need a lot of thermite in many, many places. BTW, if you've ever even seen the WTC segment on the History Channel, you'd know that the WTC was monitored 24/7 by CCTV and foot patrol by a building dedicated security staff. Nevermind trying to get them all to burn at a syncrhonized time. How many wireless devices do you know of that can reach across the ENTIRE WTC tower?

Tasan wrote:It's unfortunate you take things at face value and don't stop to interpret the many facts related to the incident


Really? Of Corth? I rather think the same thing about you.

Botef wrote:WTC towers were leased just a few months before 9/11 with a special insurance policy taken out that granted the owner billions of dollars in event of what else, A terrorist attack...


USS Cole? Two US Embassies? Khobar Towers? The original WTC attack? Anyone who signs a lease on a significant property thinks about things like the 1996 Olympics and the Unabomber. Terror was big five years before 9/11. It's not at all suprising that they took out insurance.

Gormal wrote:All of the chalkboard physics and demolition scenarios in the world cannot possibly compare to the actual occurrence of a jumbo jet smashing into a building like that.


A jumbo jet is a fantastic bomb. The inital impact carries an amount of expended energy that most bombs used in terrorism cannot even compare to. The jet fuel that a plane carries vaporizes and ignites, burning anything consumable for as far as it's spray pattern carries.

No missile compares. The only things (non-nuclear) that might are objects like the USAF's MOAB, Daisy Cutter (... maybe).

Tasan wrote:Well since no one on the plane could tell us what type of plane it was...


What are you talking about Tasan? How many average people can identify a commercial aircraft from the inside. (Let me give you a hint. Many plane passengers never see the outside of the aircraft they are traveling in, unless you happen to be lucky enough to see it through a window in the terminal.)

The plane can be easily identified in photos and video presented in the media. Unique characteristics like the tail, the wingtips, body shape, number of windows, engine housings are a dead giveaway for any plane.

Corth wrote:Am I missing something here? Wasn't a 747 jumbo jet video taped as it plowed into each building before thousands of witnesses? And yet, this was supposedly a controlled demolition?


Interesting question Corth. Can anyone account for the hundreds of witnesses for the Pentagon crash, having seen a plane headed for the building? For that matter, did ANYONE see a missile? The answer would appear to be zero. Living in the DC area, one would know that two major roads run near the Pentagon, and the building is within full view of may publically accessed places in and around the district, Crystal City, and other points south and east. The Pentagon even has a commuter metro stop.

Ruxur wrote:Chairman of the BYU department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, Dr. Miller, is on record stating in an e-mail, "I think without exception, the structural engineering professors in our department are not in agreement with the claims made by Jones in his paper, and they don't think there is accuracy and validity to these claims".


While this statement does pop up on the web, I was unable to find a credible source for this statement.

Ambar wrote:Tire and the piece of engine .. also fuel is not stored in the whole wing, just the wing butt .. I still fail to see how whole wing conplete with spars can fold into the fuselage .. the jet didnt come straight in but came in at a 45 degree angle, different stresses on the wings in different places ..


There are several manufactures of airplane tires, and airlines buy from nearly all of them. A "piece" of the engine is hardly a convincing piece of evidence. I've seen quite a few aircraft engines and they have many similar looking pieces, especially when they've been shreded.

Commercial jetliner wings are fairly weak compared to combat aircraft. They're not designed for intensive manuveurs or massive "Gs." You will notice that the wings did not sever or as severely daamage the steel columns on the WTC towers (the engines and the fuselage of the planes, however, did).

BTW, for a real paper on the WTC incident, http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1Draft.pdf

Now, looking at the damage pictures on the Pentagon, and the pictures of the parts on the ground, I have to say that I'm not convinced they don't belong to a commercial aircraft. (I have NOT found what I agree to be credible sources. The images I used to make the comparisons have come from "papers" by conspiracy theorists.)

The wheel, or the rim of the landing wheel supposedly from a "military aircraft?"

Looks like a standard double-bead commercial aircraft wheel.

Size comparison was too difficult to make with the pictures given (no reference).

As for the engine parts: 757's do not only fly with one type/brand/model of engine. There are several models of 757's, and three engines installed standard in them (in the US, overseas as many as six types of engines fly in 757's). Many parts are consumables (must be replaced during regular maintenance, like parts in a car) and have undergone design revisions (for improved efficiency, life, and cost-saving benefits).

As for the broken windows? Photoshop magic. I hate to say it but I've seen those photographs elsewhere (even in other conspiracy theorists' sites) that don't have the 'undamaged' windows in them. For another thing - those windows aren't regular glass pane windows.

The wings are much more difficult to explain. In several photos I've seen there are impact marks extending outwards from the outer wall impact site that indicate that something did indeed strike the extremely solid walls of the Pentagon. Due to the enormous strength of the walls, the center of mass of the plane carried through the building, the wings, shaped and slanted back would have had their front spars and attachment to the body broken first in initial impact. They then would have torqued on the rear attachment and folded into the body as they vaporized along with the fuel they carried (read as: fireball).

Whew, that was a long one. I will summarize:

> The wheel is common to that type of aircraft.

> The engine part is not uncommon to that type of aircraft.

> No unbroken windows.

> Wings destroyed with a majority of the aircraft wreckage.

In other words, it adds up. A bunch of idi...people that don't know anything about aircraft decided to flap their jaws and no one looked into it any further.

Sarell wrote:I know the science of colour of metal is quite good. I have a bachelors degree with honours in photography.


Yes, the science of color of metal is quite good, if you can identify the metal.

Structural steel is not the only metal in the World Trade Center towers. Miles and miles of plumbing (read as: various metal pipes), stair railings (trust me, there's a ton of stairs that aren't even the escape stairwells, nevermind the ones that were on fire ((which is why few people got out))). Nevermind various metals that are in computers, montiors, office furniture, cubicles, refridgerators (of which there were thousands in the WTC towers), to building furnishments like frames for the wtc's square MILES of windows, weaker steel floor supports, ceiling supports, bathroom stall dividers, aluminum soda cans, the 767 that crashed into it, file cabinets, vaults, safes, DOORS, the THOUSANDS OF CARS IN THE BASEMENT,

FREAKING HELLO(not you Sarell)? Structural steel was by far not the only metal in the WTC towers.

Sarell wrote:Also, I teach art, my home kiln was made of concrete bricks, and dug into the ground a bit, and I use wood to fire it as stated. Pottery cones tell you how hot your fire is without needing an expensive thermometer. You can hit 1200 easily.


Excellent point. EEEeeeveryone knows that paper burns at 451 degrees f, right? (Wrong, thanks to modern chemical additives to make paper more white, it burns at a slightly different temperatures).

So when you set fire to a paper factory, it's only 451 degrees right?

Hells f'in no.

There's this thing called "energy" and when it's released amongst a bunch of other things releasing energy, there's this thing called Newton's Laws (the laws of momentum shown to apply to energy by many, many scientists).

Infared radiation, among other things, transmit energy. You can well expect to reach temperatures in excess of 2000 degrees f in the center of the factory (and as far as combustibles go, that's fairly low. try burning down a magnesium factory).

Excellent, excellent point Sarell. You do Australia proud.

Other Problems Not Brought Up In Thread

> No citations on photographs used (some credit given). In fact, no cited sources for photographs. AHEM, PHOTOSHOP anyone? (I could make a squib come out of "Hi Maxler"s big round butt) Could not find a vast majority of the images played in the mainstream media.

Suspect the images used, I do.

> The inwards collapse of the WTC towers was NOT SUPRISING for a structure that has the large amount of its load support ON THE OUTSIDE PERIMETER.

> Temperature causes steel to expand. The St. Louis arch, although perfectly symmetrical in design and using identical parts as the other side was OFF by 8 feet when they were dropping in the key of the arch. The reason is due to the heat differential given by the SUN shining more on one half than the other. (The fire department was called out to spray water on the arch with the most lean.)

Yes, when you do stuff like, set fire to one half of a building like the WTC, it will come down. Period.







Read a real peer-reviewed scientific paper (with real data, and actually scientific, rather than a guestimate by a whackjob).

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1Draft.pdf

(The government can make a few good points too.)
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Postby Ambar » Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:54 am

Why did I giggle just then?
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:59 am

I post just for you Ambar.

I do have a bit of a problem with the government story on the Pentagon.

A Blue Angels pilot in their own plane would have a hard time hitting the Pentagon as low to the ground as the government claims the 757 hit.

One hell of a flying job.
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Postby sok » Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:39 pm

All i see now is just a bunch of letters place next to each other. dont you guys get tire of arguing about nothing?
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Postby Tasan » Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:46 am

Ambar wrote:Why did I giggle just then?


Pssst... I don't think he gets it!
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:06 am

Tasan wrote:Pssst... I don't think he gets it!


I think it goes something like this:

Teflor's such a loser because he keeps arguing.. wait a second... no...

Teflor's a retard because he makes fun of other pe..... no, that's me too...

Teflor's stupid because he thinks he's better than me. Therefore, I am better than he is.

OOOOohhhh, no, I almost got myself there.

Teflor's your mom.

Dee dee dee, Tasan. Eat your heart out.
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Postby Ambar » Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:27 pm

Actually I was giggling because I just thought how can one person be such an expert about EVERYTHING!

I may start a debate on cosmetics jut to see what new political bullcrap gets brought up :P
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Postby Ambar » Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:39 pm

I'm not sure people are clear what I mean by saying that pieces of different aircraft were *found* .. but I will try to be more .. hrrm clear :)

In different levels of airplane/car repair, you sometimes need to know the specs of what you are dealing with. If say I could break down ANY engine at all, SOMEWHERE there are measurments of EVERY part of the engine from the bolt to the compressor, etc.

The pieces of engine they found do NOT match ANY tspecs of ype of ANY jet liner they make in the 700 *series* (IE: there is NO part of the engine be it compressor fan, rotor, etc that can possibly be that large or small) .. it DOES match APU parts of a DIFFERENT class jet altogether (the APU or auxiliary power unit is used to start the actual engines then usually shut down during flight unless there is an emergency)

the *tire* they found was part of the hub, NOT rubber, the METAL .. upon close inspection and MEASUREMENT it was determined NOT to have come from aforementioned aircraft.

Can I site my findings by spouting off articles and what people SAY? NO! I read this crap now weeks ago, the day this thread started :)

I am NOT saying there was any conspiracy, I am NOT claiming that ANYONE is an IDIOT, I am merely stating that TOO MANY people have their OWN theory on what happened.

For the record, Tasan was saying that we cannot ask people what happened who were on the aircraft bencause THEY ARE DEAD! That misunderstanding just bothered me, it was CLEAR what he was saying :)

I am so sick of people trying to bring others to THEIR way of thinking thru lame argument then getting pissd because everyone can see through it all!

I am sick of everything being an argument with certain people, where the hell are the discussions? The give and take minus the argument.

None of us on this BBS are experts, we dont make the high dollar money that allows us to do the research, we have to go on other people's words about it all.

Stop trying to be the EXPERT on such little EXPERIENCE!
Last edited by Ambar on Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:56 pm

Ambar wrote:I may start a debate on cosmetics jut to see what new political bullcrap gets brought up :P


Japanese 'scientific' whaling.
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