Some people really suck

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Thilindel
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Some people really suck

Postby Thilindel » Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:36 pm

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Afri ... 60,00.html

What a pathetic example of justice.
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Postby rylan » Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:03 pm

Yeah, 2000 hours to be served on weekend? Give me a break. I don't care if she was a "first offender" and the "breadwinner of an extended family". She cheated, got knocked up, and then murdered the helpless baby to hide the evidence. Sounds like first degree murder to me.
I hope her husband immediately files to divorce the bitch.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:39 am

but kill an animal and REALLY get punished

OMG this is horrible :(
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Postby Ruxur » Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:42 am

yes, some people really suck, others swallow
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Postby Gormal » Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:47 am

Some people do both... Hi Maxler!
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Postby Ubek » Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:04 pm

Ahh the beauty of passing judgement over a culture not your own. This is a totally screwed up thing. But I come from a third world country with relatives that depend on me back home. If something were to happen to me, they'd be more or less screwed. If I were to commit a crime here(in America) none of that would matter at my sentencing, but I'm actually happy to see that someone was bold enough to make a tough descision that wasn't based on external perception. The fact that 4 people would be out of house and food should take precedence over the mother being punished.

Just my opinion from my perspective and no I'm not from Mexico.
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:48 pm

It doesn't matter what country in which she murdered her own newborn. The problem lies in she's not really being punished. Her social status isn't adjusted either. The judge should force her family to replace her work status and rid the planet of her in the first place. The mentality of someone like that is creepy.
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Postby Ruxur » Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:32 pm

Ubek wrote:Ahh the beauty of passing judgement over a culture not your own. This is a totally screwed up thing. But I come from a third world country with relatives that depend on me back home. If something were to happen to me, they'd be more or less screwed. If I were to commit a crime here(in America) none of that would matter at my sentencing, but I'm actually happy to see that someone was bold enough to make a tough descision that wasn't based on external perception. The fact that 4 people would be out of house and food should take precedence over the mother being punished.

Just my opinion from my perspective and no I'm not from Mexico.


Talk about chaos. So what you are saying is that having dependants grants immunity for henious crimes. Great, so people that have kids can kill all they want. Crimes must be punished, and if you commit a crime and people depend on you, guess what, they suffer too. You do the crime, you do the time.
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Postby Ubek » Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:44 pm

Its all a matter of perspective really. You think a certain way about these things, and I have to stress this part or else it'd be a flame fest. Your ideas, thoughts, perceptions and opinions are NOT WRONG. But just because they are not wrong does not make them right for everyone else. Defend your ideas however you want, I don't intend to attack them. I just would just like to point out that this situation happened in South Africa or were ever where the social views and culture are not the same as your own. Maybe take a step back and realize you may not get a full picture from the over simplified version of the story.
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Postby Minofagal » Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:14 pm

Here's percpective for you:

A woman in TEXAS drown'd FIVE(5) kids one after the other in the same day, and was found guilty. She appealed, and just within the past 2 or 3 weeks was found not guilty by reason of insanity (severe post partem depression). So she spends the rest of her life in a nut house.

I don't think it matters where you are. Not to say it isn't messed up. What happened to being held accountable for your actions? I always thought that was something that was just a worldwide given. *shrug* guess not.
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Postby rylan » Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:44 pm

Yup, it would be chaos... basically a free ticket for anyone with dependants.
How about all the illegal immigrants in this country. Oops, they robbed a bank and shot 5 people. But they were going to send the money back to their family in mexico because they depend on it, so the criminal gets off.
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Postby Ubek » Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:30 pm

Minofagal wrote:Here's percpective for you:

A woman in TEXAS drown'd FIVE(5) kids one after the other in the same day, and was found guilty. She appealed, and just within the past 2 or 3 weeks was found not guilty by reason of insanity (severe post partem depression). So she spends the rest of her life in a nut house.

I don't think it matters where you are. Not to say it isn't messed up. What happened to being held accountable for your actions? I always thought that was something that was just a worldwide given. *shrug* guess not.


Both cases are being held accountable. Both cases occured in completely different societies. You could over simplify the situation and not take into account the fate of her family but I suspect family meant more to the judge in this particular situation.


[quote=rylan]
Yup, it would be chaos... basically a free ticket for anyone with dependants.
How about all the illegal immigrants in this country. Oops, they robbed a bank and shot 5 people. But they were going to send the money back to their family in mexico because they depend on it, so the criminal gets off.
[/quote]

I can't respond to this.

[quote=Ruxur]
Talk about chaos. So what you are saying is that having dependants grants immunity for henious crimes. Great, so people that have kids can kill all they want. Crimes must be punished, and if you commit a crime and people depend on you, guess what, they suffer too. You do the crime, you do the time.
[/quote]

Implying that this particular judgement may lead to their social structure crumbling is abit extreme don't you think? Even America's system takes things into account beyond the crime. Lets not pretend, social status has gotten many a rich drunk driver freedom. Again holding people accountable with reason does not mean it would encourage society to become chaotic. No matter what system you have in mind, there will alway exist those to follow it, hate it, love it, live by it and ignore it altogether. Don't tell me the real reason you haven't raped a girl is because you are afraid of the consequences... Fear of the law was intended for the less logical crowd of criminals. The law is meant to protect and in this case it is protecting her family not destroying it like you might prefer.
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Postby Ubek » Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:33 pm

BTW, I'm just posting as a point of debate, I hope none of you take it personal. Alot of my irl friends do not understand my perspective on alot of situations and because of that, I have found it easier to engage them in such conversations than pretend I agree with their point of view.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:42 pm

The difference a day makes...

The day before it would have been abortion, but suddenly it passes through a vaginal canal and suddenly it's murder?

The joke isn't the sentance or the judge and jury. The joke is the people.

And that's just never funny at all.

While we're at it, let's proclaim that the United States doesn't have the right to defend herself because occasionally a solider or two will commit a crime, then give Kim Jong-Il (North Korea) a nuclear reactor or two because 'they have the right to develop nuclear techology' over the corpses of millions of innocent people.

Why ignore the big picture? Because it's big.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:46 pm

Ubek wrote:The fact that 4 people would be out of house and food should take precedence over the mother being punished.


Society will not survive if the crimes committed against it are not punished and stopped. The four dependants must be looked after, and yet the criminal still must bear the sentance -without consideration to anything beyond the crime-.

Both are obligations of society and neither may be neglected by anyone other than fools.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:47 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:While we're at it, let's proclaim that the United States doesn't have the right to defend herself because occasionally a solider or two will commit a crime,


Wow! Now <i>THAT'S</i> a Straw Man!
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:53 pm

Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:While we're at it, let's proclaim that the United States doesn't have the right to defend herself because occasionally a solider or two will commit a crime,


Wow! Now <i>THAT'S</i> a Straw Man!


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Postby Ambar » Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:08 pm

So .. if the mother had died of natural causes .. who takes care of the dependents then? Errm that was MURDER and should be seen as murder! How many couples try and try and try to have children and cannot, yet trash like this is allowed to procreated then murder her offspring

Obscene!!!!!
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Postby sok » Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:03 pm

dang teflor beat me to it.

not to say i condone the action of that woman, which i do not, how come we do not make as big of a stink about abortion?

ubek, i came from a third world country. if you ran some over and they died, you own that person's family 3 million reals ($750 us). it prevents people from killing each other with cars, because its a large sum of money for those people. however, that is really sad to me, because human life is worth so little.

if you murder someone, you go to jail.

the difference in the 2 scenerio is the intention.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:10 am

I agree with Sok. The funny thing is that human life is worth only what it takes to save one.

In some cases, it's as little as $0.79 a day.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:20 am

teflor the ranger wrote:I agree with Sok. The funny thing is that human life is worth only what it takes to save one.

In some cases, it's as little as $0.79 a day.


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Postby Ruxur » Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:57 pm

Ruxur wrote:Talk about chaos. So what you are saying is that having dependants grants immunity for henious crimes. Great, so people that have kids can kill all they want. Crimes must be punished, and if you commit a crime and people depend on you, guess what, they suffer too. You do the crime, you do the time.


Ubek's idotic rant wrote:Implying that this particular judgement may lead to their social structure crumbling is abit extreme don't you think? Even America's system takes things into account beyond the crime. Lets not pretend, social status has gotten many a rich drunk driver freedom. Again holding people accountable with reason does not mean it would encourage society to become chaotic. No matter what system you have in mind, there will alway exist those to follow it, hate it, love it, live by it and ignore it altogether. Don't tell me the real reason you haven't raped a girl is because you are afraid of the consequences... Fear of the law was intended for the less logical crowd of criminals. The law is meant to protect and in this case it is protecting her family not destroying it like you might prefer.


No, i am absolutely not being extreme. The fabric of social order is held together in part by crime and punishment. Just because the reason I have not raped a girl is not because of the fear of being punished, does not mean that you should allow for gaping loopholes in your punishment system. In this particular case that you are responding to, a woman had a baby, created a life, and then killed that person. If you are telling me that the government that let that person that commited 1st degree murder just walk scott free was justified in doing so because of the womans many dependants, then i do not know what to say to you. Your train of logic confounds me. I do not see how you wish to live in a society that would allow something like this to happen.

As for the law considering elements outside the crime. In the US, outside elements are considered when a sentance is passed down from a judge. The judge weighs in all sorts of factors when he scentances a convicted criminal. However, having so many people depend on you is not good enough to get off of a murder 1 charge. Not only is it not good enough, it is laffable to think that a judge would even consider it. Ubek, a society that does not punish its criminals has no power to rule, and has no authority to govern, and many would argue that it no longer is a soverign country. Yeah, sounds like a great place to me, with such a logical legal system.
Last edited by Ruxur on Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Masrick » Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:47 am

Call me what you wish, but I will not go down that path with you Ruxur.
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Postby Ruxur » Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:22 am

Masrick wrote:Call me what you wish, but I will not go down that path with you Ruxur.


i didnt call you anything
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Nonox tells you 'i think someone casted 'power word gay' on pril'

Malacar ASSOC:: 'must... mp...soon...underwear...cringing...at...oncoming...onslaught...'
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Postby Cirath » Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:23 am

Ubek wrote: The law is meant to protect and in this case it is protecting her family not destroying it like you might prefer.


How is placing a murderer, one that killed her own child, in charge of raising and caring for other children protecting them? It seems to me that this is, in fact, placing those children in imminent danger of death. The woman has already proven her complete lack of respect for human life as well as her willingness to kill. She also has been told that she will recieve only a light slap on the wrist for extinguising a life (in this case, the life of one that could not defend himself).

Ubek, your claim is that if someone has some extenuating circumstances, then they can be forgiven of any crime. The problem is that it sets a precident that will allow anyone a fairly large loophole to slip through for some of the most heinous of crimes.

You said "Don't tell me the real reason you haven't raped a girl is because you are afraid of the consequences," but you decided to choose a crime that is particularly vile in the minds of most civilized people. The fact is that many, many people have not commited robbery, fraud, or assault precisely because they are afraid of the consequenses. Fear of the law is a crucial tool in enforcing it. You may wish to believe that it is the higher reasoning, or the moral imperative that prevents people from commiting terrible acts, but the fact is that for every person that obeys the law out of belief in the system, another one, or two, or five stamp down their urges because the punishment is not worth the brief satisfaction or enjoyment that the crime would provide.

No matter the nation, there is a minimum and maximum penalty for every crime. I cannot believe that this falls within the minimum punishment for first degree murder in any country, and that makes it a poor judgement. Without standards, all judgements are arbitrary.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:48 am

It's hard enough to envision what that bitch did. The scene if one were to observe a woman holding a newborn in the toilet. Poor little baby quits wiggling :( Makes me want to utterly bitchslap that judge. Let alone the whore who executed something so innocent.
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Postby rylan » Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:07 pm

It would be just fine with me if they held that bitch's head in a toilet until she drowned.
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Postby Ruxur » Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:59 am

paging all ubeks!


not gonna defend your point of view anymore?
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Postby Lahgen » Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:12 pm

AYANAMI
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