"It'd be funny if it weren't so sad."

[Tasan]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16716644/?GT1=8921

Good god we need to institute castration as a penalty. Sick bastards.

[alendar]

people like that need castrated with a sledge hammer.


the above isnt a joke... for those of you without a sense of humor (irs, gods, etc)

[teflor the ranger]

I believe people can hold any sexual fantasies that they would like, so long as they respect the rights of others and try to abide by the law.

A healthy dose of intolerance can assist in maintaining societal norms and boundaries, however, it is very easy to push intolerance into the realms of oppression, bigotry, and hatred that is unhealthy for society as a whole.

There are things about people that cannot always be controlled at the conscious level. As long as people can control themselves at the conscious level, and do, we should reserve some respect for that at the very least. (Not that this case is likely that at all, but I thought I'd get up on my soap box.)

[Gormal]

I hate pedophiles. Absolute. Sheer. Hate.

And I don't feel the least bit bad about it.

[Ambar]

castration is too good .. give them to the children's parents is what I say ..

[alendar]

1" pvc pipe and 18" of barbed wire

insert first item then insert second item.... pick an spot it dont really matter.... remove first item quickly.... remove second item slowly...

hell make some popcorn and enjoy the show.

[amolol]

1 class rod 1 cm in diameter 1 hammer... you figure it out

[flib]

seriously though the old guy had to know.. zomg thats just wierd... what insane ppl think of is just crazy.

[Tasan]

I believe people can hold any sexual fantasies that they would like, so long as they respect the rights of others and try to abide by the law.

Last time I checked, intent to repeat the action that got him incarcerated in the first place is against the law.

A healthy dose of intolerance can assist in maintaining societal norms and boundaries, however, it is very easy to push intolerance into the realms of oppression, bigotry, and hatred that is unhealthy for society as a whole.

Whereas perpetuating a crime against children doesn't do society the least bit of harm? I think everyone is aware of the impacts of intolerance, and this isn't an issue where intolerance even applies. A child's rights come way above some piece of shit criminal with problems. Oh and if you are trying to play the angle that we are intolerant of the other gentlemen involved, I remind you that they were very upset when they found out he wasn't a pre-teen boy.

I really want to live in a world where we tolerate these people... yes that sounds nice.

I thought I'd get up on my soap box.

Why? Because you know this is an issue from which you can provoke an emotional response from people? Grow the hell up. There are places to make a stand and this is not one of them.

[Cirath]

Actually, the whole thing is extremely funny. The best part must have been the look on the two older men's faces when they realized that they were apparently into adults the whole time, and could have avoided jail time by investing in a bic razor and a few revlon products.

On the up side (for them, at least), they might be able to find less troublesome boyfriends in the slammer.

[Sarell]

I hate [b]any word[b]. Absolute. Sheer. Hate.

And I don't feel the least bit bad about it.

Gormal = Cliff!

insert first item then insert second item.... pick an spot it dont really matter.... remove first item quickly.... remove second item slowly...

hell make some popcorn and enjoy the show.

Dude you simply have to buy a television or something, it has much better shows to watch!

Can you imagine how stupid all these guys actually are? That guy would look suss if he enrolled in senior highschool! Or maybe they just watched never been kissed and wanted a shot at joining the baseball team :|

[teflor the ranger]

I see the outpatients are out in force tonight.

I believe people can hold any sexual fantasies that they would like, so long as they respect the rights of others and try to abide by the law.

Last time I checked, intent to repeat the action that got him incarcerated in the first place is against the law.

As I had said "Not that this case is likely that at all," I would suggest that you finish reading before you start talking.

A healthy dose of intolerance can assist in maintaining societal norms and boundaries, however, it is very easy to push intolerance into the realms of oppression, bigotry, and hatred that is unhealthy for society as a whole.

Whereas perpetuating a crime against children doesn't do society the least bit of harm? I think everyone is aware of the impacts of intolerance, and this isn't an issue where intolerance even applies. A child's rights come way above some piece of shit criminal with problems. Oh and if you are trying to play the angle that we are intolerant of the other gentlemen involved, I remind you that they were very upset when they found out he wasn't a pre-teen boy.

I really want to live in a world where we tolerate these people... yes that sounds nice.

I don't think most people really do understand the impacts of intolerance. Intolerance applies to all situations, how just would it be to execute anyone who has committed any crime? In civil society, there are standards to punishments - that is to say, avoidance of the cruel and unusual. I hate to say it, but castration by sledge does not conform to those basic, obvious, and easily understood standards.

I thought I'd get up on my soap box.

Why? Because you know this is an issue from which you can provoke an emotional response from people? Grow the hell up. There are places to make a stand and this is not one of them.

And you're doing what with this? It is clear that there is an element of mental illness in this case. Growing up includes avoiding hypocricy, Tasan, something I don't think you have any right to demand of others.

[Thilindel]

Pedofiles, when there is absolutely no doubt, should just be executed. There's no proven rehabilitation for them. They're merely a liability to society.

[Ashiwi]

The two types of criminals with the highest recidivism rates that I know of (and admittedly I am not an expert) are serial killers and pedophiles.

Some serial killers have been known to prey on certain types of victims, such as prostitutes, through some zealous belief that they are doing society and/or God a favor by ridding the world of all manner of sins that prostitution breeds.

Is a society that chooses certain types of criminals to execute any different? Should we become serial killers in the name of ridding ourselves of deviant sex offenders? Where do you draw the line? What hard basis will determine which behaviors deserve the death penalty? What will be the concrete age that will determine the borderline between child and adult? What are the factors that will be taken into account when the determination for death is made? Will it be based solely on testimony, as that is all the evidence there is for most child molestations? If it's based solely on testimony, how will you take into account those victims who are led into their accusations by overly zealous adults trying to do the "right" thing?

As for the other options... Sexual deviation usually takes one of two distinct patterns, especially in pedophiles. There is the pedophile who truly confuses affection for sexual situations with the child who is their victim, and is driven to complete the act of "love" with them. Then there is the pedophile who is angry and expresses that anger in brutal sexuality. Which one of these is mostly likely to be "fixed" by castration? The former will find other ways to express their perversions, as most pedophiles of that type are driven to "give pleasure" to their underaged partners, and we all know that doesn't require male sex organs. The latter will still be angry and capable of brutal violence, and we all know those types don't always use the male organ for what they do, either.

A large number of the truly deviant sexual offenders can't even get it up, and there are many instances where they have been completely unable to find completion. The best you can hope for with castration is that the hormonal changes will alter the desire of the pedophile enough to counter-balance the other factors that draw him to children. The anger, frustration, misery and depression that would follow something so drastic as castration could potentially have the opposite effect as the one sought.

Take it from somebody who would happily be judge, jury and executioner... there is no easy answer to this. I know that the legal system fails to function when it comes to this type of criminal. Pedophiles do not "get better." They may learn to suppress those behaviors that are not condoned by society, but statistics show that they are much more prone to re-offend than in almost any other type of crime, and those who do re-offend tend to do it over, and over, and over again. Until this is a black and white situation, however, there are no hard and fast rules by which to judge something so extreme as which actions deserve the death penalty in these cases. If there is no "eye for an eye" argument, what is the justification for legal murder?

Personally, I'd be far more amenable to something more like a frontal lobotomy, instead of castration. The problems that cause pedophilia are not in the genitalia 99.9% of the time.

[Tasan]

Which one of these is mostly likely to be "fixed" by castration?

For me the issue of casteration is more for deterrent than fixing a supposed problem. Most of the people exhibiting behaviors like this can't be "fixed". For those that truly have a mental problem, castration isn't likely to affect them in either way, whereas those that are only exhibiting the behavior but aren't necessarily ill might rethink their actions.

Probably not, but what else is there to do?

And Tef: You have no idea if mental illness exists or not, so I would say it isn't clear.

[teflor the ranger]

And Tef: You have no idea if mental illness exists or not, so I would say it isn't clear.

And perhaps that is why these things need to be handled with a little more wisdom and a little less sledgehammer.

People can be sexually attracted to the opposite sex, and society of course has to accept that to survive, but recently, society is coming to accept that people can be attracted to other than that, say, people of the same sex. The reasoning behind the acceptance is that it is not a disease, that sexual orientation is something you are born with or can't do anything about.

This reasoning will carry. This country is about not persecuting people for the things they are born with. Eventually, society will have to accept people who are sexually oriented towards the young. While we will never make it legal, or allow sex with minors to happen, we do, however, have to accept the people who are oriented that way, and that there isn't anything they can do about it. Of cours,e if they commit a crime, they should be prosecuted to the full extent with maximum punishment. But this punishment shouldn't reach into the cruel or unusual.

[Cirath]

What will be the concrete age that will determine the borderline between child and adult?

The same question occured to me. I would be particularly interested to those who claim a profound hatred for pedophiles. What is the line that separates sick and depraved from just a little weird or inappropriate? What change takes place in the child that causes this distinction.

I am not talking about what age the law defines as the age of maturity or consent. If it were just an issue of breaking a law, then it would cause no more stir than a speeding ticket. Not to mention that the age of consent for various things (the purchace of alcohol and tobbacco especially, and while some may see this as a tame example, it does address the issue of age being equal to responsibility) has fluctuated a fair bit over the last few decades.

For me the issue of casteration is more for deterrent than fixing a supposed problem.

Of course, you must consider how many murderers are discouraged by the fact that, if convicted, they are likely to be put to death as well.

[Lilira]

Of course, you must consider how many murderers are discouraged by the fact that, if convicted, they are likely to be put to death as well.

And of course take into account how many murderers walk off scott free or only serve a span of time before being dropped back onto the street thanks to the efforts of a great many lawyers with imo questionable ethics. Or better yet, serve life sentences on the dime of the tax payers.

[Tasan]

For me the issue of casteration is more for deterrent than fixing a supposed problem.

Of course, you must consider how many murderers are discouraged by the fact that, if convicted, they are likely to be put to death as well.

Yes, but murder and sexual deviants aren't quite on the same level of thought process. Murder is more often the result of more spontaneous thought. Sexual deviants can spend lots of time staking out places or people... I dunno...

I think a lot of the reason murderers aren't afraid is because of all the red tape and the stigma behind keeping people behind bars vs. executing them.

[Cirath]

Yes, but murder and sexual deviants aren't quite on the same level of thought process. Murder is more often the result of more spontaneous thought. Sexual deviants can spend lots of time staking out places or people... I dunno...

I think a lot of the reason murderers aren't afraid is because of all the red tape and the stigma behind keeping people behind bars vs. executing them.

Wouldn't rapists fall into the sexual deviant category? That is often a spontanious act, much like a heat-of-the-moment murder, and it isn't always an adult that is the victim. Consider that your image of this sort of crime might be colored by the "stranger with candy" image.

Castration as a penalty does have its merits, and I am fairly sure that chemical castration is, in fact, a valid sentance for some crimes in certain states. However, it only really has much effect on those offenders who are both male, and whose crimes involve their genitailia. There are always the less direct variants of the caste to consider, such as child pornographers in this case.

[Ashiwi]

To be totally honest about it, I'm all for castration for sex offenders, but that's just the vengeful side of me.

Nothing's going to do any good until somebody can find a way to make our legal enforcement offices take a hard, effective stance against sexual offenses.

No child molester should ever, ever, EVER be able to walk free on probation just because he was never caught doing it before. I understand the spirit behind not legally being able to hold a person's own testimony against them, but when you have somebody accused of child molestation sitting in front of you, confessing to a long string of previous offenses that were never prosecuted, letting them off as a first-time offender is one of the stupidest things I have ever witnessed in my entire life. There should come a point where the good of the people carries some weight in justice.

[Tasan]

Wouldn't rapists fall into the sexual deviant category? That is often a spontanious act, much like a heat-of-the-moment murder, and it isn't always an adult that is the victim. Consider that your image of this sort of crime might be colored by the "stranger with candy" image.

I don't think the majority of rapes happen "on the spur of the moment". Rapists choose a time/place to attack someone(even when it's date rape :p) because they understand that the testimony of the victim will often be colored by the experience, and lack of other witnesses means much greater chance of getting away with the crime. It also comes down to prey drive tactics... if you can attack on your grounds and keep your prey off-balance, you risk less.

Murder for the most part, even when it has it's motives, is still a more spontaneous act in a lot of cases. Still I agree with Kelly. Until the justice system is cleaned up, it doesn't matter what punishment is in place. It's getting to be where the victim's end up the prisoners in a world full of criminals walking free.

[teflor the ranger]

Wouldn't rapists fall into the sexual deviant category? That is often a spontanious act, much like a heat-of-the-moment murder, and it isn't always an adult that is the victim. Consider that your image of this sort of crime might be colored by the "stranger with candy" image.

I don't think the majority of rapes happen "on the spur of the moment". Rapists choose a time/place to attack someone(even when it's date rape :p) because they understand that the testimony of the victim will often be colored by the experience, and lack of other witnesses means much greater chance of getting away with the crime. It also comes down to prey drive tactics... if you can attack on your grounds and keep your prey off-balance, you risk less.

Murder for the most part, even when it has it's motives, is still a more spontaneous act in a lot of cases. Still I agree with Kelly. Until the justice system is cleaned up, it doesn't matter what punishment is in place. It's getting to be where the victim's end up the prisoners in a world full of criminals walking free.

I'm inclined to agree. Rape doesn't usually just spontaneously happen to women on the street. Rape occurs most often where low self-esteem women gather to slow their motor functions and neutralize their judgement. It's no accident that rape has readily identifiable stomping grounds.

[Tasan]

Rape occurs most often where low self-esteem women gather to slow their motor functions and neutralize their judgement.

Where can I find the male equivalent of these so-called "stomping grounds"?

[teflor the ranger]

Does that even qualify as rape?

[Tasan]

Does that even qualify as rape?

I can say no with the best of them.

[Ambar]

Laugh as you will, male rape does occur ..

I am sort of glad this thread took this direction because of that response/reaction by some of the guys our mudding community see as the more *manly*.. how many of you would ADMIT to rape??

I find rape and child molestation some of the offenses that I can least see amusing .. I guess when it happens/almost happens to you, it becomes more sober .. how male rape is met with brevity, woman rape is met with question (did she deserve it?? did she *ask* for it .. she shouldnt have worn THAT, said that, acted that way) while we (for the most part) have stated in this thread thast suspected child rape/abuse should be met with castration.

[Cirath]

Laugh as you will, male rape does occur ..

Why would anyone laugh? It isn't even an unusual sort of thing.

[Tasan]

how many of you would ADMIT to rape??

About the same % as women I would assume. I know of 3 women who claimed to have been raped, none of which went to the authorities.

how male rape is met with brevity

Male rape by a female, which is sadly a minor statistic. Male rape by another male is much more prevalent and would be met with much more disdain.

woman rape is met with question (did she deserve it?? did she *ask* for it .. she shouldnt have worn THAT, said that, acted that way) while we (for the most part) have stated in this thread thast suspected child rape/abuse should be met with castration.

I think that is a stereotype and a dated one at that. Most people that are abused or otherwise violated aren't forthcoming in the initial stages after the crime because of the stigma associated with being a victim and the mindset caused by the attack. When someone comes forward months to years later, there should be questions asked(not necessarily THOSE questions). The key point is that these cases practically require immediate investigation because the chances of putting someone behind bars after a few days dwindles to near nothing.

Obviously it doesn't hold true for everyone and I apologize if I've offended with my comments. For men, it is more a joke on social norms and male society as a whole than it is about rape. Men have been stereotypically typecast as more sexually inclined or whatever and it has an effect on relationships between men. The best example of the differences between the two is the high school example of sex. Women in high school who have sex with multiple people(or sometimes at all) get labeled by other women as whores etc. Men the exact opposite.

Rape isn't a laughing matter... unless you're raping a clown. Ok so maybe that's not funny either. I wish there was a </male> tag so we could hide our jokes from women that don't understand what we are laughing at.

[Vigis]

Oops. Wrong thread :)

[teflor the ranger]

Laugh as you will, male rape does occur ..

That... that was you last summer?

[Ambar]

Laugh as you will, male rape does occur ..

That... that was you last summer?

I SERIOUSLY doubt that .. (rest of comment witheld with strong willpower)

[teflor the ranger]

Laugh as you will, male rape does occur ..

That... that was you last summer?

I SERIOUSLY doubt that .. (rest of comment witheld with strong willpower)

Ouch. But the lady doth protest too much.

[Lilira]

There are some things guys that just aren't funny.

Take a hint.

[Colje]

Castrate pedofiles when there's no doubt, I really cant see any other way they can be "CURED".

[Cirath]

Castrate pedofiles when there's no doubt, I really cant see any other way they can be "CURED".

Curing criminal behavior implies that it is a disease, rather than a choice. Also consider that castration only has any effect on males, and for the most part that effect is either extremely transient (if your goal is pain), or just simple psychological torture. Finally, considering the ability to appeal in the American justice system, and the fact that when a case is tried by jury it takes many varied view points into account, the chances of there being "no doubt" are fairly small.

The whole "castrate the offender" view is a bit of a knee jerk reaction intended to cause pain for an individual that the speaker despises. Meanwhile, the question of what concrete line separates a pedophile and a validl sexual participant remains unanswered (once again, I ask this question more to discover the nature of the intense hatred of this class of sexual offenders, rather than the specifics of legality). If one is to cause pain, then it seems that they should take the time to decide the boundaries within which that pain is to be doled out.

[Tasan]

The whole "castrate the offender" view is a bit of a knee jerk reaction intended to cause pain for an individual that the speaker despises. Meanwhile, the question of what concrete line separates a pedophile and a validl sexual participant remains unanswered (once again, I ask this question more to discover the nature of the intense hatred of this class of sexual offenders, rather than the specifics of legality). If one is to cause pain, then it seems that they should take the time to decide the boundaries within which that pain is to be doled out.

It is totally knee-jerk, but also not literal in my case. Castration can be used in reference to "nerfing" almost anything. I don't think there are more than 2 classes of sexual deviant either. Just like I don't understand why there is more than 2 different degrees of murder. I mean... you killed someone in reaction, or you planned it out and did it. There isn't a lot of grey there for me. In the case of sexual deviants it depends on the victims age. Taking advantage of a minor(another term which seems to be greying with time) should be a different class of offense than attacks upon an adult and that's about it.

When you talk about some sort of penalty to be paid for the crime, I ask what happened to punishment fitting the crime? Maybe it's cruel and unusual to castrate someone, but isn't it also cruel and unusual to violate someone? Why do we give convicted criminals so many rights? Why are there white-collar and blue-collar prisons? For that matter, why do we need so many prisons? I think I'll start a new topic for this...