MMPORG takes steps to engage base.

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
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MMPORG takes steps to engage base.

Postby avak » Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:55 pm

NY Times article

There are some really striking comments in the article from the admins of that game. For example:

[quote]“A government can’t just keep saying, ‘We are not corrupt.’ No one will believe them. Instead you have to create transparency and robust institutions and oversight in order to maintain the confidence of the population.â€
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Re: MMPORG takes steps to engage base.

Postby Corth » Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:56 pm

avak wrote:I happen to agree with some on here that life might be more interesting if they were a little corrupt.


<a href="http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14319">Bring back Artifacts, Politics, and God Favoritism!</a>
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:01 am

Forget it. MMORPGs are a dead model, best left to be laughed at and shunned.

It's the one gaming model that took the game industry out of the entertainment industry.
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:35 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:Forget it. MMORPGs are a dead model, best left to be laughed at and shunned.

It's the one gaming model that took the game industry out of the entertainment industry.

World of Warcraft has grossed more cash than Titanic (the world's highest grossing movie). At the current rate of 8.5 million subscribers, WoW will generate Titanic's total gross revenue every 15 months.

More people play World of Warcraft than live in 130 of the world's 221 countries. (Source)

The yearly subscription revenue Blizzard collects from World of Warcraft is more than the GDP of 30 countries. This does not count game box sales, only subscriptions at the current subscription rate. (Source)

The expansion to World of Warcraft sold 2.4 million copies in the first 24 hours. In that one day, The Burning Crusade beat the previous record for first-month video game sales.

Your ignorance is astounding. Perhaps you are best left to be laughed at and shunned.
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Postby Corth » Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 pm

Wow. Pwned.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Sarvis » Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:58 pm

Corth wrote:Wow. Pwned.


Nah, it's just time for Teflor to break out the illogic and flames.
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Postby Corth » Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:25 pm

Says his partner in crime, Sarvis..
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Sarvis » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:17 pm

Not really, but whatever helps you sleep at night.

And don't try to pretend you weren't involved, either.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:03 pm

Ragorn wrote:World of Warcraft has grossed more cash than Titanic (the world's highest grossing movie). At the current rate of 8.5 million subscribers, WoW will generate Titanic's total gross revenue every 15 months.

<snip>



Those are interesting statistics. Do you have another example of a highly succesful MMORPG besides WoW?
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Postby Dalar » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:10 pm

It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:14 am

Dalar wrote:http://gigaom.com/2007/06/13/top-ten-most-popular-mmos/


Interesting list, a lot of things I've never heard of. A little surprised City of Heroes and Eve Online aren't on there though. I thought they were pretty popular...
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:36 am

SirBruce stopped updating it last year, but:

www.mmogchart.com

Up until June 2006, you can see subscription rates for all major (and many minor) MMOs plotted against each other. There are precious few other MMOs enjoying success in North America, but several are insanely popular in Asia... Lineage 1&2 and FFXI among them. Second Life is also enjoying a lot of success worldwide, largely due to its strong economic model and ease of transfering in-game currency to real dollars.

The article in Dalar's link includes a number of "membership optional" social programs, I don't know if they all qualify as "MMOGs with subscribers" in the traditional sense. Puzzle Pirates may have 1.5 "active accounts," but that's because they have free-to-play oceans where accounts are never deleted. But still, a lot of the same names show up in that article and on the MMOG chart.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:54 am

Ragorn wrote:Your ignorance is astounding. Perhaps you are best left to be laughed at and shunned.


Ragorn wrote:There are precious few other MMOs enjoying success in North America


Should I start laughing at you ... now?

(Nevermind nothing you said addressed the game industry divorcing the entertainment industry. I get to laugh both at your own ignorance in your arguments, as well as your inability to comprehend the argument I was making [which was made with the full knowledge of WoW's subscriber base, wtg genius].)

In fact, let's have some fun. I'm going to go ahead and point out some of the foolish things you've gone ahead and done with your unrelated arguments.

Ragorn wrote:World of Warcraft has grossed more cash than Titanic (the world's highest grossing movie). At the current rate of 8.5 million subscribers, WoW will generate Titanic's total gross revenue every 15 months.


Titantic was produced by Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation.

Every 15 months they gross oh... let's say... 23.9 billion divided by 12... multiplied by 15....29.875 Billion USD?

Titantic: 1.8 billion?

So... 30 billion to 2 billion.

Your ignorance is astounding. That's one. Shall I shame you twice?

Ragorn wrote:More people play World of Warcraft than live in 130 of the world's 221 countries.


Tickets sold to Pirates of the Carribean: Dead Man's Chest

64,628,368

WoW players?

8.5 Million

So... 64.6 Million to 8.5 Million?

Your ignorance is astounding. That's two. Shall I shame you thrice?

Ragorn wrote:The expansion to World of Warcraft sold 2.4 million copies in the first 24 hours.


'Pirates' DVD sells 5 million copies in the first day.

Pirates?

5 Million

Burning Crusade?

2.4 Million

So.. 5 million to 2.4 million. This isn't too bad actually, but it doesn't compare to the entertainment industry. You'll also take care to notice that while Pirates was the number one movie of 2006, or you could say, the WoW of film - that many other films did very well in tickets sold and box office grosses.

Frankly, even the entertainment industry is stagnent and out of good ideas. The fact that most of gamers are on WoW _IS_ the sign that MMORPGs are a dead model. It's a ceaseless game that has no ending, tells no story, and drags on and on and on in then endless and useless grind of xp, eq, and duh.

No one is producing sucessful MMORPGs (because we get it. get on, quest a lot, xp some, pvp a little, raid. lame), nor are the current ones as culturally pervasive as simple old games like Mario Brothers, or Tetris.

It will be supplanted, replaced. Someone with some creativity will show up in the gaming industry one of these days.

Btw, don't play the 'you're ignorant game' when you... well, are.
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Postby Kifle » Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:20 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Ragorn wrote:Your ignorance is astounding. Perhaps you are best left to be laughed at and shunned.


Ragorn wrote:There are precious few other MMOs enjoying success in North America


Should I start laughing at you ... now?

(Nevermind nothing you said addressed the game industry divorcing the entertainment industry. I get to laugh both at your own ignorance in your arguments, as well as your inability to comprehend the argument I was making [which was made with the full knowledge of WoW's subscriber base, wtg genius].)

In fact, let's have some fun. I'm going to go ahead and point out some of the foolish things you've gone ahead and done with your unrelated arguments.

Ragorn wrote:World of Warcraft has grossed more cash than Titanic (the world's highest grossing movie). At the current rate of 8.5 million subscribers, WoW will generate Titanic's total gross revenue every 15 months.


Titantic was produced by Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation.

Every 15 months they gross oh... let's say... 23.9 billion divided by 12... multiplied by 15....29.875 Billion USD?

Titantic: 1.8 billion?

So... 30 billion to 2 billion.

Your ignorance is astounding. That's one. Shall I shame you twice?

Ragorn wrote:More people play World of Warcraft than live in 130 of the world's 221 countries.


Tickets sold to Pirates of the Carribean: Dead Man's Chest

64,628,368

WoW players?

8.5 Million

So... 64.6 Million to 8.5 Million?

Your ignorance is astounding. That's two. Shall I shame you thrice?

Ragorn wrote:The expansion to World of Warcraft sold 2.4 million copies in the first 24 hours.


'Pirates' DVD sells 5 million copies in the first day.

Pirates?

5 Million

Burning Crusade?

2.4 Million

So.. 5 million to 2.4 million. This isn't too bad actually, but it doesn't compare to the entertainment industry. You'll also take care to notice that while Pirates was the number one movie of 2006, or you could say, the WoW of film - that many other films did very well in tickets sold and box office grosses.

Frankly, even the entertainment industry is stagnent and out of good ideas. The fact that most of gamers are on WoW _IS_ the sign that MMORPGs are a dead model. It's a ceaseless game that has no ending, tells no story, and drags on and on and on in then endless and useless grind of xp, eq, and duh.

No one is producing sucessful MMORPGs (because we get it. get on, quest a lot, xp some, pvp a little, raid. lame), nor are the current ones as culturally pervasive as simple old games like Mario Brothers, or Tetris.

It will be supplanted, replaced. Someone with some creativity will show up in the gaming industry one of these days.

Btw, don't play the 'you're ignorant game' when you... well, are.


Not exactly sure what you were trying to do here... but I think you missed something.

In 15 months, Blizzard will gross 1,912,500,000 (roughly 1.9 billion). Titanic grossed 1,835,300,000 (roughly 1.85 billion). So where again was Ragorn wrong when he made the comment that WoWs gross profit will top titanic's gross profit every 15 months? The math seems pretty easy to me. I can't see where he said that Blizzard, off of it's one game (WoW), will make more money than an entire production firm in 15 months. I'm pretty sure he was doing a direct comparison to blizzard's most profitable game to the highest grossing movie of all time. One product to one product.

Lets play the Teflor arguing game for a second. Ok, well since fox makes 29.875 billion every 15 months, lets compare that to the entire gaming industry and see how much they make. It will be more, I'm too lazy. Since it is more, you are wrong. Does that make any type of logical sense when you put it in the context of the original argument? No, probably not... unless you use teflor logic.

Next we take your wonderful comparison of Total ticket sales of one movie compared to the total subscribers of WoW. Where again does this refute what Ragorn said? I'm going to go out on a limb here and paraphrase Ragorn: 'How can a model be dead if it has more subscribers than total people living in 130 countries?" Using this statement, the implied statement, how exactly does the ticket sales of any movie make this statement wrong or ignorant? I'd say that if more people do something than live in 130 countries, that thing must be successful and thriving. But hey, what do I know...

Also, even if you COULD compare a movies ticket sales to the amount of subscribers. That movie lasts, what... almost 3 hours? Ok, so ~64 million people invested 3hrs of their life to watch this movie. A large portion of the 8.5 million subscribers commit that amount of time at least every week. Even if we give a conservative estimate of how many people play 3hrs a week, 2.125 mil, and extrapolate that to 52 weeks, you get 110.5 mil. So how again is 64mil > 110.5 mil? I mean, if you're going to compare something, at least make the comparison a bit fair and not one-sided so it fits your argument.

Face it, tef... You made a dumb statement based on absolutely no facts, you tried to save face by throwing around insults and backed them up with arguments founded on TeFacts(tm). What you kinda forgot was that the forum posters here can check your facts and are usually smart enough to see that you use virtually every defined logical fallacy to back your arguments.

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Postby Sarvis » Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:08 pm

Kifle wrote: The math seems pretty easy to me.


But you didn't make up random numbers, so it can't be right!
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Postby avak » Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:17 pm

To say that MMOs are a dead model is entirely retarded. To say that MMOs are not as culturally pervasive as any other video game is equally retarded. All you are really arguing, Teflor, is that the current selection of MMOs leave much to be desired in gameplay. I doubt anyone here is going to argue that fact or the fact that someone will come along and make something new and better and more immersive.

I know for a FACT that al-qaida, george bush and the ghost of saddam have gotten together to make a new MMO that will cause Americans to be lulled into a deep intellectual sleep so that the Mormons can create a new world order (NWO) based in Wyoming. I have a reference-less wikipedia articla that explains the whole thing and I'm working on a soon-to-be published (self published of course) tell-all book. Don't make me cite the Internet! Because I will.
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:30 pm

Titantic was produced by Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation.

Every 15 months they gross oh... let's say... 23.9 billion divided by 12... multiplied by 15....29.875 Billion USD?

Titantic: 1.8 billion?

So... 30 billion to 2 billion.

Your ignorance is astounding. That's one. Shall I shame you twice?


The total revenue of News Corporation in 2006 was $25.3 billion. Twentieth Century Fox Film Corporation is merely one small subsidiary of Newscorp, which also encompasses over 50 other child companies including Fox News, FOX affiliate stations, MySpace, and the New York Post. Don't make it worse for yourself by making up numbers.

Tickets sold to Pirates of the Carribean: Dead Man's Chest

64,628,368

WoW players?

8.5 Million

So... 64.6 Million to 8.5 Million?

Your ignorance is astounding. That's two. Shall I shame you thrice?

Number of World of Warcraft boxes sold: 12 million
Number of World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade boxes sold: 4 million

Ticket to Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest: $8.50
Box price of World of Warcraft: $49.99
Box price of World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade: $39.99

Total ticket revenue from Pirates of the Carribean: $549,341,128
Total box sale revenue from World of Warcraft: $759,960,000

Stop embarassing yourself. You're making this too easy.

'Pirates' DVD sells 5 million copies in the first day.

Pirates?

5 Million

Burning Crusade?

2.4 Million

So.. 5 million to 2.4 million.

Cost of a Pirates DVD: $16.99
Cost of World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade on launch day: $39.99

Revenue from Pirates: $85 million
Revenue from Warcraft: $96 million

How much longer do you want to go on with this?

It's a ceaseless game that has no ending, tells no story, and drags on and on and on in then endless and useless grind of xp, eq, and duh.

Wait, what's the plot of Toril again? I seem to have forgotten.

World of Warcraft, on the other hand, has a complex and involved plot, and a wide variety of subplots. You wouldn't know, of course, because you've never actually played it. You just talk. And talk, and talk.

No one is producing sucessful MMORPGs (because we get it. get on, quest a lot, xp some, pvp a little, raid. lame), nor are the current ones as culturally pervasive as simple old games like Mario Brothers, or Tetris.

MMORPGs are more successful than movies. You've already proven that in this thread. And World of Warcraft is far more culturally pervasive than Tetris.

Btw, don't play the 'you're ignorant game' when you... well, are.

Ragorn - 2
Teflor - fail

I'm shocked you even bothered to come back to this thread. All you've done is double the shame you brought upon yourself. Stop posting now before I have to embarass you a third time.
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:44 pm

Ragorn wrote:Wait, what's the plot of Toril again? I seem to have forgotten.


Hey now, leave us out of this. :(

In all seriousness, you can't argue that WoW doesn't make a crap-ton of money. I think it's also pretty clear that WoW's utter dominance of the MMO market indicates that there may be some flaws in either the business or game play models of MMORPGs in general. These flaws need to be addressed for the success of WoW to spill over into the MMORPG industry as a whole.


See? You're both right. Let's move on!
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:42 pm

Shevarash wrote:See? You're both right. Let's move on!


Not possible, it would mean Teflor is right.

Just because there are flaws going unadressed in MMORPGs does not mean they are a dead model.

There are flaws in every genre, but they aren't dead. Just look at the FPS genre which doesn't seem to have had a new idea since Unreal Tournament.

To just look at a popular movie and compare it to a single popular game to say it's dead is meaningless. How is WoW doing compared to, say, Delta Farce? How is LOTR Online doing by comparison to Delta Farce?


Hell, you could look at Delta Farce compared to WoW and declare the movie Comedy genre dead and it would be just as valid.
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:25 pm

Image
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Postby Kifle » Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:32 pm

Shevarash wrote:Image


Win
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

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Postby Ragorn » Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:02 pm

Shevarash wrote:
Ragorn wrote:Wait, what's the plot of Toril again? I seem to have forgotten.


Hey now, leave us out of this. :(

Plot isn't the only reason I would play a game. Toril is case in point. Final Fantasy Tactics had the worst god damn plot (and phone book of characters) I've ever seen, but I still liked the game.

In all seriousness, you can't argue that WoW doesn't make a crap-ton of money. I think it's also pretty clear that WoW's utter dominance of the MMO market indicates that there may be some flaws in either the business or game play models of MMORPGs in general. These flaws need to be addressed for the success of WoW to spill over into the MMORPG industry as a whole.

We're not really having a real argument here. Teflor just felt like making some smug, overzealous, and indefensible comments, and I simply felt like laying the smackhammer down on him. I don't think either one of us is under the impression that we're holding any sort of substantative debate here.

Also, you win the thread. Thread over.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:48 pm

Ragorn wrote:We're not really having a real argument here. Teflor just felt like making some smug, overzealous, and indefensible comments, and I simply felt like laying the smackhammer down on him. I don't think either one of us is under the impression that we're holding any sort of substantative debate here.


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Postby Ragorn » Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:55 pm

I'm heading home, have a happy CATURDAY tomorrow.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:23 pm

Ragorn wrote:We're not really having a real argument here. Teflor just felt like making some smug, overzealous, and indefensible comments, and I simply felt like laying the smackhammer down on him. I don't think either one of us is under the impression that we're holding any sort of substantative debate here.


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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:37 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Titantic was produced by Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation.

Every 15 months they gross oh... let's say... 23.9 billion divided by 12... multiplied by 15....29.875 Billion USD?

Titantic: 1.8 billion?

So... 30 billion to 2 billion.

Your ignorance is astounding. That's one. Shall I shame you twice?


The total revenue of News Corporation in 2006 was $25.3 billion. Twentieth Century Fox Film Corporation is merely one small subsidiary of Newscorp, which also encompasses over 50 other child companies including Fox News, FOX affiliate stations, MySpace, and the New York Post. Don't make it worse for yourself by making up numbers.

Tickets sold to Pirates of the Carribean: Dead Man's Chest

64,628,368

WoW players?

8.5 Million

So... 64.6 Million to 8.5 Million?

Your ignorance is astounding. That's two. Shall I shame you thrice?

Number of World of Warcraft boxes sold: 12 million
Number of World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade boxes sold: 4 million

Ticket to Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest: $8.50
Box price of World of Warcraft: $49.99
Box price of World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade: $39.99

Total ticket revenue from Pirates of the Carribean: $549,341,128
Total box sale revenue from World of Warcraft: $759,960,000

Stop embarassing yourself. You're making this too easy.

'Pirates' DVD sells 5 million copies in the first day.

Pirates?

5 Million

Burning Crusade?

2.4 Million

So.. 5 million to 2.4 million.

Cost of a Pirates DVD: $16.99
Cost of World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade on launch day: $39.99

Revenue from Pirates: $85 million
Revenue from Warcraft: $96 million

How much longer do you want to go on with this?

It's a ceaseless game that has no ending, tells no story, and drags on and on and on in then endless and useless grind of xp, eq, and duh.

Wait, what's the plot of Toril again? I seem to have forgotten.

World of Warcraft, on the other hand, has a complex and involved plot, and a wide variety of subplots. You wouldn't know, of course, because you've never actually played it. You just talk. And talk, and talk.

No one is producing sucessful MMORPGs (because we get it. get on, quest a lot, xp some, pvp a little, raid. lame), nor are the current ones as culturally pervasive as simple old games like Mario Brothers, or Tetris.

MMORPGs are more successful than movies. You've already proven that in this thread. And World of Warcraft is far more culturally pervasive than Tetris.

Btw, don't play the 'you're ignorant game' when you... well, are.

Ragorn - 2
Teflor - fail

I'm shocked you even bothered to come back to this thread. All you've done is double the shame you brought upon yourself. Stop posting now before I have to embarass you a third time.


RagornFACT (wrong): Total ticket revenue from Pirates of the Carribean: $549,341,128

Reality (correct): $1.06 Billion, $650 Million, $841 Million - for the three movies.

RagornFACT (wrong): Cost of a Pirates DVD: $16.99

Reality (correct): We were discussing the sales on the opening day. Price on the opening day? $24.99

Still Unanswered: $30 billion to $2 billion

Still Unanswered: The cessation of other successful games in this genre.

Still Unlearned: You don't get how to play the ignorant game. If you are ignrorant, you shouldn't play. Just so you know. Btw, go ahead and make up some more stuff while you're at it - kinda funny.


How much longer do YOU want to go on this?
You kinda come up wrong every single time.

FinalRagornFACT (still wrong): Ragorn - 2, Teflor - fail

Reality: Ragorn - fail, Teflor? - now at 4.

It helps to use, you know. Real numbers. (try www.boxofficemojo.com - or a variety of other movie statistics tracking sites. also, remember to consider the context of the numbers you are using, are they appropriate to the period? are they actual numbers or have they been adjusted for inflation? etc etc. It will make you a much more effective. If this argument is affecting your health, I promise not to make fun of you or otherwise insult your character if you just decide to stop. remember, if you're not having fun it's not worth it - you started it afterall.)
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:43 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:It helps to use, you know. Real numbers.


What would you know about it?
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:48 pm

Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:It helps to use, you know. Real numbers.


What would you know about it?


Enough. I'm waiting for a day you actually back up your arguments with a solid number. Or have an argument, for that matter.
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:30 pm

I'm just playing with you Tef, to give Sarvis something entertaining to read. You lost the actual argument a couple days ago. Your original stance was:

Forget it. MMORPGs are a dead model

And you've never given one stitch of evidence to support that. If I were you, I'd stop talking about News Corporation's combined gross revenue and the number of Pirates DVDs sold in Uganda. None of that is in the slightest way relevant to your original assertion that MMORPGs are a "dead" model. But it's cool, I've argued on the internet for a long time, I can help you out. Let me set up the way you should be handling your argument, and you can take it from there.

First of all, you don't want to take on World of Warcraft, you can't win that one. World of Warcraft is a billion-dollar franchise, incontrovertible proof that the MMO model can find enormous success when executed well. No, there's really not much for you to say about it other than embarassingly subjective statements (like "it's a useless grind of xp, eq, and duh").

What you want to do is go to the link I provided (MMOG Chart) and you want to find yourself a straw man... some game that's been released in the last couple years that failed miserably. Something people have heard of, like The Matrix Online. Quote its total subscriber base in June 2006 (30,000) and point out that the numbers were trending downward when the chart stopped updating. Go onto Google and learn that MxO was bought by SOE about 13 seconds after the game launched, and make a comment about how SOE ruins everything it touches (cite Star Wars Galaxies for effect).

Then what you want to do is try to indicate that MxO is the norm and not the exception. There's a chart for games with less than 120k subscribers, scan it for other colossal failures. Also note once-popular games that are in decline. Cite a couple examples.

Next, you need something to stab peoples emotions. A really big, much-hyped game that people here would be familiar with. A colossal failure of epic proportions. Lucky for you, you've got Vanguard to talk about. Go do some reasearch on that, read the F13 articles, and make your case. It shouldn't take much work to hold Vanguard up as the model of failure for MMOs.

Finally, take a parting shot at the titles that are coming out soon, like Warhammer. Make a few bland, general statements like "PvP sucks and it never works" and "Warhammer is a shitty game." You're good at those, they should come easy. End with a prediction that references your original claim... "Warhammer will be the next in a long chain of failures because MMOs are dead." Then take a parting shot at me for being ignorant, sign it, and hit Submit.

And that's your case. You'll want to go and do your own research of course, because I can pick this one apart just as easily as I wrote it. But really, my advice to you is just to state your opinion that you don't like MMOs and move on. Don't try to bring fact into the argument at all, because I know probably 30 or 40 times more than you do about MMOs and you can't win a real argument with me on this topic. After all, I've had max level characters on four different MMOs and I've played a dozen more, and you... well, have you ever actually played an MMO?

You're welcome, by the way... no charge.
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:46 pm

Ragorn wrote:I'm just playing with you Tef, to give Sarvis something entertaining to read.


Awww, how touching.

Don't try to bring fact into the argument at all,


Heh... this is Teflor, so no worries there!

He might have problems with the parts where you told him to cite things though. Not sure he knows how to do that...
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:25 am

Ragorn wrote:I'm just playing with you Tef, to give Sarvis something entertaining to read. You lost the actual argument a couple days ago. Your original stance was:

Forget it. MMORPGs are a dead model

And you've never given one stitch of evidence to support that.


1) The number of success stories in the model. One.

2) It wasn't even as popular as Mario Brothers. And you know it. People who have stomped on a goomba > people who killed the fish at jarrod's landing. Enough said.

Ragorn wrote:If I were you, I'd stop talking about News Corporation's combined gross revenue and the number of Pirates DVDs sold in Uganda.


Considering how popular illegal copies are in places like Uganda, I would have to say this makes legitimate sales even MORE significant. After all, we are counting legitimate copies of WoW sold in Uganda, so unless you want to apply the standard across both sides, I don't think you have a case.

Btw, News Corporation's revenues are even larger. I was sticking to Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation.

Ragorn wrote:None of that is in the slightest way relevant to your original assertion that MMORPGs are a "dead" model.


It goes to my original assertion that the game industry has seperated from the entertainment industry. Teflor 5.

Ragorn wrote:But it's cool, I've argued on the internet for a long time, I can help you out.


Your experience does not seem to have helped you very much here.

Ragorn wrote:Let me set up the way you should be handling your argument, and you can take it from there.


You mean you're going to start reading before you remark?

Ragorn wrote:First of all, you don't want to take on World of Warcraft, you can't win that one. World of Warcraft is a billion-dollar franchise, incontrovertible proof that the MMO model can find enormous success when executed well. No, there's really not much for you to say about it other than embarassingly subjective statements (like "it's a useless grind of xp, eq, and duh").


It is the only billion-dollar franchise. It's the only real success story in the MMO model. That would make ethanol, viagra, and auto racing more sucessful. The game industry is still looking for a defining product, and shouldn't waste it's time on the obviously dead MMORPG model.

Get with the program Nintendo DS. Nearly 45 million have been sold and well outpaces WoW - superstar of the dead MMORPG model.

Still not convinced? 20+ million PSPs. 8 Million Wiis.

And many of these babies don't even come with games.

Ragorn wrote:What you want to do is go to the link I provided (MMOG Chart) and you want to find yourself a straw man... some game that's been released in the last couple years that failed miserably. Something people have heard of, like The Matrix Online. Quote its total subscriber base in June 2006 (30,000) and point out that the numbers were trending downward when the chart stopped updating. Go onto Google and learn that MxO was bought by SOE about 13 seconds after the game launched, and make a comment about how SOE ruins everything it touches (cite Star Wars Galaxies for effect).

Then what you want to do is try to indicate that MxO is the norm and not the exception. There's a chart for games with less than 120k subscribers, scan it for other colossal failures. Also note once-popular games that are in decline. Cite a couple examples.
[/quote]

No, that is what I would do if I were you. But I'm actually good.

Ragorn wrote:Next, you need something to stab peoples emotions. A really big, much-hyped game that people here would be familiar with. A colossal failure of epic proportions. Lucky for you, you've got Vanguard to talk about. Go do some reasearch on that, read the F13 articles, and make your case. It shouldn't take much work to hold Vanguard up as the model of failure for MMOs.


Do you understand what it means to hit market saturation? It means your model is dead. It also means that you've hit as many people as you can that are going to be interested - all that is left for the industry is to fight amongst each other for the subscribers.

Ragorn wrote:Finally, take a parting shot at the titles that are coming out soon, like Warhammer. Make a few bland, general statements like "PvP sucks and it never works" and "Warhammer is a shitty game." You're good at those, they should come easy. End with a prediction that references your original claim... "Warhammer will be the next in a long chain of failures because MMOs are dead." Then take a parting shot at me for being ignorant, sign it, and hit Submit.


Well, I will say that you don't seem to be ignorant of the warning signs of a dead model. The only part you're missing is that the MMORPG model is actually a dead model.

Ragorn wrote:And that's your case. You'll want to go and do your own research of course, because I can pick this one apart just as easily as I wrote it.


Not really. When you watch the trend of new subscribers go from a positive exponential curve, to oh... zero change. You've hit a dead end until you can somehow involve a whole new audience of people. The entertainment industry manages to do that by changing the nature of the product they provide to people. No one wants to go see an old black and white film about honest catholic values - because that model is dead. Sure, a million people might go and see it, but you've saturated the market.

Now the Pirates series appeals to a broad audience. Once they've managed to kill the Pirates Model - you can bet you're going to see within five years a new kind of movie.

Ragorn wrote:But really, my advice to you is just to state your opinion that you don't like MMOs and move on. Don't try to bring fact into the argument at all, because I know probably 30 or 40 times more than you do about MMOs and you can't win a real argument with me on this topic.


Doubtful. You haven't seemed to notice the lack of new subscribers, or the inability of the MMORPG to draw in new audiences.

Ragorn wrote:After all, I've had max level characters on four different MMOs and I've played a dozen more, and you... well, have you ever actually played an MMO?


I hate to say this to you, but that doesn't give you any credibility in being able to feel the pulse and critique the effectiveness of the game industry.

It means you know how to click a mouse on a fictional cow-monster until you're out of potions.

Ragorn wrote:You're welcome, by the way... no charge.


Thanks, but no thanks. I see plenty of empty commentary pass by on a daily basis.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:55 am

Sarvis wrote:
Don't try to bring fact into the argument at all,


Heh... this is Teflor, so no worries there!

He might have problems with the parts where you told him to cite things though. Not sure he knows how to do that...


Congratulations for continuing to not understand that easily looked up facts do not require citations. Congratulations for being ignorant to the facts that have already been posted in the thread.

Don't have children.
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:59 am

teflor the ranger wrote:Btw, News Corporation's revenues are even larger. I was sticking to Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation.

Then you have no idea what you're talking about, as usual.

Link to the Q4 2006 (fiscal year) earnings release for News Corporation. Page 2, paragraph 2, revenue for fiscal year 2006 $25.3B up 6% from $23.9B in 2005.

Wait... BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I see what you did. You went to the Wiki page for 20th Century Fox, and you scrolled to the bottom where it lists the revenue for the company, except that you didn't even bother to read the entire line. If you did, you would have realized that the $23.9B revenue figure listed applies to company NYSE: NWS, which is News Corporation and not the subsidiary company 20th Century Fox. Fuck tef, it even refers you to www.newscorp.com.

Image

It is the only billion-dollar franchise. It's the only real success story in the MMO model. That would make ethanol, viagra, and auto racing more sucessful. The game industry is still looking for a defining product, and shouldn't waste it's time on the obviously dead MMORPG model.

Nope, there are a slew of other successful titles. Ultima Online, Lineage 1&2, Final Fantasy XI, Everquest, City of Heroes, Eve Online, the list goes on. All financial and popular successes.

Good call on the bland, generalized statement that references your original claim though. I see you picked up on some of the tips I laid out for you.

Get with the program Nintendo DS. Nearly 45 million have been sold and well outpaces WoW - superstar of the dead MMORPG model.

So now you want to compare total console hardware sales to the sales figures from one PC title? Fail. Invalid comparison, irrelevant to your point, and you picked the wrong fucking system anyway. You should have used the PS2, which has an installed base of over 115 million worldwide.

You aren't needed in this thread anymore, tef. I'm doing a better job of making your point than you are.

No, that is what I would do if I were you. But I'm actually good.

Yeah, I can barely hear you over the sound of how awesome you are.

Do you understand what it means to hit market saturation? It means your model is dead. It also means that you've hit as many people as you can that are going to be interested - all that is left for the industry is to fight amongst each other for the subscribers.

Market saturation hasn't been reached in the MMO market. World of Warcraft acquired half a million new subscribers in Q1 2007, as reported by Blizzard's press releases:

8 million, January 2007
8.5 million, March 2007

And people cried market saturation when Everquest peaked at 500k subscribers in early 2004. World of Warcraft continues to grow, the number of MMO players continues to grow, and each new franchise that enters the MMO market (Warhammer, Lord of the Rings online) taps an existing fan base into the MMO genre.

Provide citations that show market saturation, or try something else. You lose this one too.

Not really. When you watch the trend of new subscribers go from a positive exponential curve, to oh... zero change. You've hit a dead end until you can somehow involve a whole new audience of people. The entertainment industry manages to do that by changing the nature of the product they provide to people. No one wants to go see an old black and white film about honest catholic values - because that model is dead. Sure, a million people might go and see it, but you've saturated the market.

Yep, that's why you can't throw a rock without hitting a new franchise MMOs. Final Fantasy XI introduced some 2-3 million Final Fantasy fans to the MMO genre. Lots stayed with FFXI, others drifted to EQ and WoW. Lord of the Rings Online launched this year, drawing in classic fantasy nerds. Warhammer will launch late 2007, bringing tabletop gamers with it. How do you think World of Warcraft managed to show such explosive growth in its first year? It's all the battle.net players who swore they'd never pay to play a subscription game until 0.00013 seconds after Blizzard launched their own.

And then you have Horizons. Horizons didn't do shit. It was a generic fantasy sword-and-sorcery MMO with no franchise ties. It was terrible on release day, and it fell far short of the developers' promises. There was no reason to play it, there were plenty of other fantasy MMOs that were done better. And so, Horizons never caught a piece of the market, and it died in a fire.

Doubtful. You haven't seemed to notice the lack of new subscribers, or the inability of the MMORPG to draw in new audiences.

Oh? Citations? Links, references? Show me. World of Warcraft added enough new subscribers in the first three months of this year to fill Yankee Stadium nine times over. Got something better than that?

Or do you plan to talk about how 500,000 new subscribers is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of cars General Motors sold in the 90s?

I hate to say this to you, but that doesn't give you any credibility in being able to feel the pulse and critique the effectiveness of the game industry.

We've all seen how good you are at critiquing a genre you've never played and know nothing about.

Thanks, but no thanks. I see plenty of empty commentary pass by on a daily basis.

Yep, every time you hit Preview.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:54 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Don't try to bring fact into the argument at all,


Heh... this is Teflor, so no worries there!

He might have problems with the parts where you told him to cite things though. Not sure he knows how to do that...


Congratulations for continuing to not understand that easily looked up facts do not require citations. Congratulations for being ignorant to the facts that have already been posted in the thread.

Don't have children.


You said that about the easily looked up "facts" you posted in the Global Warming thread. I then posted three articles disputing those claims.

That's why you cite things. So we don't think you just made up numbers in your head.

Then again, I expect that's actually what you do...
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Postby Gormal » Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:24 am

This thread is like the US sending its entire military to invade Canada. Thanks Joe, you brought a tear of laughter to my eye.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:14 pm

Sarvis wrote:You said that about the easily looked up "facts" you posted in the Global Warming thread. I then posted three articles disputing those claims.

That's why you cite things. So we don't think you just made up numbers in your head.

Then again, I expect that's actually what you do...


You are the only one. That is because you need to be told that they sky is blue.

I cite Lathander so you don't think I'm just making it up.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:31 pm

Ragorn wrote:Then you have no idea what you're talking about, as usual.


Teflor 5, Ragorn 1.

Ah. You finally got one because I didn't think you were worth the time or the effort. Bet you feel like the big man now.

At Release Argument:
Ragorn wrote:Cost of a Pirates DVD: $16.99

Image

At 'I forgot your other assertion in that same post' argument:
Ragorn wrote:None of that is in the slightest way relevant to your original assertion that MMORPGs are a "dead" model.

Image

At Revenue Argument:
Ragorn wrote:Revenue from Pirates: $85 million

Image

At Revenue Argument:
Ragorn wrote:Total ticket revenue from Pirates of the Carribean: $549,341,128

Image

Ragorn wrote:Then you have no idea what you're talking about, as usual.


From the above, I would have to say that it's you much more often than I.
Image


When arguing with you, even when I'm wrong, it still seems to work for me somehow.

Ragorn wrote:World of Warcraft acquired half a million new subscribers in Q1 2007


In a world-wide potential audience of 3 billion?

Image


At the very least, I will give you credit for learning how to check facts, at least. Arguing with you should be MUCH more intelligent from here on out.


Remaining Unanswered:
Cultural pervasiveness of mario brothers vs. WoW

Remaining Unanswered:
Movie Ticket Revenue (not even merchandise) of 3 Pirates movies:
2.55 Billion Dollars vs 2 Box Sale Revenues of WoW 0.756 Billion (nevermind that movies tickets cost about 10-18% of a copy of WoW)

Remaining Unanswered:
Inability of MMORPGS as a WHOLE to attract even a additional stinking 1% of it's potential audience.

Remaining Unanswered:
The prevalence and popularity of OTHER game models that are doing MUCH better than the MMORPG and are grossing larger revenues.
10 Million XBOX360's - to start with.

Image
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Postby avak » Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:09 pm

I guess if you want to harp on 1983 Mario Brothers as being the cultural pervasiveness benchmark at 40 million units then I guess you would have to argue that video games in general are a dead model, since nothing after has even broken 20 million units. lol

The obvious difference (and inherent flaw in the weak argument) is that in the mid eighties, Nintendo was almost the only option. And within Nintendo itself, Mario Brothers was one of only dozens of games (for a long time).

Today, how many options are there? A half dozen consoles all with dozens or hundreds of games? Thousands or ten of thousands of PC games? Hundreds of various MMOs? Thousands of quick and easy online games (flash etc)?

Making the leap to the movie industry is weird, at the least. To count in that statistic you have to drop $8 and 2 hours of your time? Not exactly apples to apples with Wow subscribers.

And making the leap that because WoW doesn't have 40mil+ subscribers it isn't culturally pervasive is also bizarre.

Oh, don't forget that Mario brothers was bundled with the original NES. Again, apples and oranges in a totally retarded discussion.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:41 am

avak wrote:I guess if you want to harp on 1983 Mario Brothers as being the cultural pervasiveness benchmark at 40 million units then I guess you would have to argue that video games in general are a dead model, since nothing after has even broken 20 million units. lol

The obvious difference (and inherent flaw in the weak argument) is that in the mid eighties, Nintendo was almost the only option. And within Nintendo itself, Mario Brothers was one of only dozens of games (for a long time).

Today, how many options are there? A half dozen consoles all with dozens or hundreds of games? Thousands or ten of thousands of PC games? Hundreds of various MMOs? Thousands of quick and easy online games (flash etc)?

Making the leap to the movie industry is weird, at the least. To count in that statistic you have to drop $8 and 2 hours of your time? Not exactly apples to apples with Wow subscribers.

And making the leap that because WoW doesn't have 40mil+ subscribers it isn't culturally pervasive is also bizarre.

Oh, don't forget that Mario brothers was bundled with the original NES. Again, apples and oranges in a totally retarded discussion.


I keep waiting for someone to scream "CRIPPLE FIGHT!"
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Postby Tasan » Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:59 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:In a world-wide potential audience of 3 billion?


Considering there are less than 2 billion estimated internet users, I just don't even get what you could be trying to say here.

Hey Ragorn, how do you know that there aren't aliens out in space that are part of the "potential audience". Technically anyone living now could be part of the "potential audience" since everyone grows older and could possibly get involved!

People can come up with statistics to prove anything. Fourfty per cent of all people know that.

The only real fact here is Teflor isn't capable of admitting he's wrong. He enjoys his superiority complex and simply will not ever achieve the modicum of modesty many of us have accepted. I've seen this quite a few times over the years reflected in military-enforced mentalities. Some seem to realize the difference between training and real world, and some don't.

I must say, the more outlandish his arguments stray from anything close to a cohesive argument is entertaining however. Keep poking the bear.
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:07 am

The only real fact here is Teflor isn't capable of admitting he's wrong.

Nah. What you're seeing in this thread is a show.

Teflor "debates" by putting out increasingly ridiculous arguments, trying to see how far he can bait people before they get frustrated and resort to personal insults. Then he calls them ignorant and they get all mad.

In this thread, we've reached the point where teflor's "arguments" aren't even in the same galaxy as reality anymore. Had he kept his "facts" within the realm of believability, I probably would have gone a few more posts with him, so everyone could have a laugh.

But eh. Someone else can step in if they want to. It's like punching a baby at this point.
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Postby Dalar » Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:08 am

Ragorn wrote:
The only real fact here is Teflor isn't capable of admitting he's wrong.

Nah. What you're seeing in this thread is a show.

Teflor "debates" by putting out increasingly ridiculous arguments, trying to see how far he can bait people before they get frustrated and resort to personal insults. Then he calls them ignorant and they get all mad.

In this thread, we've reached the point where teflor's "arguments" aren't even in the same galaxy as reality anymore. Had he kept his "facts" within the realm of believability, I probably would have gone a few more posts with him, so everyone could have a laugh.

But eh. Someone else can step in if they want to. It's like punching a baby at this point.


Pretty much summed up every argument ever made on this board in the past few years.
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:46 pm

I was thinking the same thing. It was fun watching Ragorn bitchsmack him around though.
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Postby Sarell » Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:57 am

If Shev starts a pay per post / word system for rags and teflor WoW is going to get annihilated in the earnings.

On the Toril side, my favourite thing about Toril is that it doesn't have a story line. The concept of a game where you could do whatever you liked instead of following a poorly acted out story (most probably involving the death of your custodian, a hot sidekick and an enigma of some description) just captured my heart when I started playing here!
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Postby Thilindel » Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:13 am

Mm heh heh...heh heh heh!

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