Sicko?

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
Arilin Nydelahar
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Sicko?

Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:55 am

So, how many if any have watched Sicko?

I'm curious of opinions on it, and american healthcare in general.

I'll withhold my opinion currently but i'll say I don't personally care for Michael Moore, but I thought this documentry/movie was well done, and eye opening to those who don't really look into that side of things.
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:42 am

Haven't seen it...

And we just had this argument a few weeks ago. Not looking forward to butting heads with Lathander again... :(
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:11 am

I'm a pretty left wing NYC liberal democrat, but even I can't handle Michael Moore. If someone is going to make a movie with a liberal agenda, I prefer for them to do it well without turning into a blowhard like all the guys on the right (Limbaugh, O'RLY, Coulter).
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Postby Cirath » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:01 am

To paraphrase Mel Brooks: Tragedy is when I stub my toe. Comedy is when Michael Moore falls down a manhole and dies.
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Postby Llaaldara » Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:33 pm

Is that the movie with the guy... and the girl.. with the car, and a gun?
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:34 am

As a country, the United States of America makes up nearly 60% of the world's health care commodities market.

This means we're getting more than anyone else. Are there going to be anecdotal stories and occasional situations where someone might have it better somewhere else?

Sure.

But chances are, many of those anecdotal stories are about people coming here for treatment they can't get anywhere else.

Ethiopia gets their 2nd MRI Machine! Yay.
http://www.capitalethiopia.com/archive/ ... l_news.htm

Now they have nearly as many as Cuba. (They might have four? Or 0.36 per million? Canada has 4.5 MRIs per million. Average first world countries have 7.6 per million.)

In the US, we use some of ours on horses and cats. We also happen to have 40% of the world's PET detectors and only 5% of the world's population.
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Postby Kifle » Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:42 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:As a country, the United States of America makes up nearly 60% of the world's health care commodities market.

This means we're getting more than anyone else. Are there going to be anecdotal stories and occasional situations where someone might have it better somewhere else?

Sure.

But chances are, many of those anecdotal stories are about people coming here for treatment they can't get anywhere else.

Ethiopia gets their 2nd MRI Machine! Yay.
http://www.capitalethiopia.com/archive/ ... l_news.htm

Now they have nearly as many as Cuba. (They might have four? Or 0.36 per million? Canada has 4.5 MRIs per million. Average first world countries have 7.6 per million.)

In the US, we use some of ours on horses and cats. We also happen to have 40% of the world's PET detectors and only 5% of the world's population.


Awesome... you just showed that the United States is greedy and wasteful. Grats?
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Postby Corth » Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:49 pm

And Kifle just demonstrated that liberals associate being successful with being greedy and wasteful. :)
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:06 pm

Corth wrote:And Kifle just demonstrated that liberals associate being successful with being greedy and wasteful. :)



*groan* You guys are making my brain hurt.

Looking at just about any measure except number of MRI machines we're pretty unsuccessful as far as medical care goes. Both in quality of care and in getting care to the people that need it.

Of course, that's necessary so that the Paris Hilton's of the world can have the best care possible!
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Postby Ambar » Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:22 pm

It just boggles me that someone who can get a bone marrow transplant and LIVE gets denied healthcare as it is *experimental* .. so they die

Boggles me .. I have never had a serious illness, never had to test my insurance, but it scares me that something I may need to LIVE may be denied to me because ti costs the insurance company too much money ..

BOGGLES me that it is even a discussion ..
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Postby Kifle » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:28 pm

Corth wrote:And Kifle just demonstrated that liberals associate being successful with being greedy and wasteful. :)


Sorry, I'm just not an asshole. I can be successful and not overendulgent or gluttonous in my lifestyle. I would give up my chance at having two porches in my garage so some kid on the other side of the world can eat for a year. But hey, if that philosophy helps you sleep at night and continue to chase those ambulances, more power to you I guess.

Furthermore, I'm not exactly a liberal. If anything I'm moderate. I believe in a more utilitarian social structure than a "get what you can, and fuck the other guy" social structure.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:00 pm

Corth wrote:And Kifle just demonstrated that liberals associate being successful with being greedy and wasteful. :)

Damn those libruls!

Wanting to raise taxes to people don't die and shit.
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Postby rylan » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:00 pm

Well actually I'd rather be greedy and make sure all of the citizens in this country are fed before I'd give a dime to someone on the other side of the planet.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:28 pm

rylan wrote:Well actually I'd rather be greedy and make sure all of the citizens in this country are fed before I'd give a dime to someone on the other side of the planet.


I don't think wanting to feed other people counts as being greedy...
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Postby Vigis » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:23 am

Sarvis wrote:
rylan wrote:Well actually I'd rather be greedy and make sure all of the citizens in this country are fed before I'd give a dime to someone on the other side of the planet.


I don't think wanting to feed other people counts as being greedy...


Feh. Made me come out from hiding and everything.

Corth never said anything about not wanting to feed other people. He did however throw out a nice little jab at liberals (whether it was called for or not).

What he said is that "liberals" associate being successful with being greedy and wasteful.

I like to consider myself moderately successful, I'm still young so I have more time to become more successful. I'll admit to harboring a certain amount of greed, as anybody who is not a hypocrite should do. If you had no greed whatsoever, you would have no reason to strive to better yourself, you'd be content with whatever droppings in life you were given.

At the same time, some would label me wasteful. I use my success, and the greed which allowed me to be successful, to help others as much as I am able so long as I have provided for my family. That is a waste of the money I earned, right?

What if I was living on minimum wage, with 3 kids at home who hadn't had enough to eat in a week? I got paid from Wal-Mart yesterday and ran into a guy on my way home. He was hungry and looked in pretty bad shape, so I gave him my paycheck. Was that a waste of the money I earned?

Warren Buffet is one successful and wasteful bastard. Can you believe the guy is only leaving $1 billion to each of his immediate relatives, funding college for the rest of them, and donating the balance of his fortune to charity when he dies? Luckily, he has enough money to strike a very nice balance. Not only can he take care of his family for generations to come, but can help countless others. What if he wasn't successful?

I think the key thing to remember is that taking care of yourself and your family is not wasteful. If you choose to take care of others first, more power to you, and I am sure you will have a place in whichever afterlife adheres to your beliefs. But, do not cast stones at others for taking care of their family first. Afterall, it is an evolution vs. creation debate.

So, who's up for discussing religion next?
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:31 am

Vigis wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
rylan wrote:Well actually I'd rather be greedy and make sure all of the citizens in this country are fed before I'd give a dime to someone on the other side of the planet.


I don't think wanting to feed other people counts as being greedy...


Feh. Made me come out from hiding and everything.


All part of my cunning plan. :P

Corth never said anything about not wanting to feed other people.


You may notice I was responding to Rylan, not Corth.


What he said is that "liberals" associate being successful with being greedy and wasteful.

I like to consider myself moderately successful, I'm still young so I have more time to become more successful. I'll admit to harboring a certain amount of greed, as anybody who is not a hypocrite should do. If you had no greed whatsoever, you would have no reason to strive to better yourself, you'd be content with whatever droppings in life you were given.

At the same time, some would label me wasteful. I use my success, and the greed which allowed me to be successful, to help others as much as I am able so long as I have provided for my family. That is a waste of the money I earned, right?

What if I was living on minimum wage, with 3 kids at home who hadn't had enough to eat in a week? I got paid from Wal-Mart yesterday and ran into a guy on my way home. He was hungry and looked in pretty bad shape, so I gave him my paycheck. Was that a waste of the money I earned?

Warren Buffet is one successful and wasteful bastard. Can you believe the guy is only leaving $1 billion to each of his immediate relatives, funding college for the rest of them, and donating the balance of his fortune to charity when he dies? Luckily, he has enough money to strike a very nice balance. Not only can he take care of his family for generations to come, but can help countless others. What if he wasn't successful?

I think the key thing to remember is that taking care of yourself and your family is not wasteful. If you choose to take care of others first, more power to you, and I am sure you will have a place in whichever afterlife adheres to your beliefs. But, do not cast stones at others for taking care of their family first. Afterall, it is an evolution vs. creation debate.

So, who's up for discussing religion next?


I don't think anyone is wasteful for taking care of their families, or even themselves. I think they are wasteful when they buy more than they need, more than they can even use. Lathander is wasteful for driving an SUV when there are cheaper and better alternatives. A 400lb man is wasteful for eating far more food than he needs to survive. A teenager who leaves every light on in the house is wasteful, just ask any father. :P

(I really wish I coul find a picture of Fry eating those individually wrapped oreos, with each cookie and the filling being individually wrapped... great example of wastefulness!)
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Postby Lathander » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:17 am

Bhahahahaha, Sarvis, do you bother to think and consider why one buys an SUV? It is four wheel drive with 18 inch tires. It is fantastic in the snow. My wife and I have occupations where we need to get to work sometimes in the snow. Either we drive or someone in an SUV has to come pick us up. You really are quite small minded, parroting the liberal party line. Yes, there are cheaper SUV's, but I prefer money leather and high quality materials. Not just for myself, but also because clients and others judge your success based on your image. When you get older and move out of your parents house and get a career, you'll learn this.

So how would you prevent the 400lb man from eating too much? Tax people that eat excess food because they are taking from the poor? :P
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:50 am

Lathander wrote:Bhahahahaha, Sarvis, do you bother to think and consider why one buys an SUV?


I really have no idea. People everywhere buy them, not just in snowy areas... and even at that no one around here needed an SUV until a few years ago. We all did just fine in cars with snow tires! Amazing, really since you seem to think only an SUV can be driven in snow. :roll:

Funny that you admit at the end too that it's your status symbol, yet when you brought it up in the global warming thread you stated flat out that you weren't compensating for anything.

So yeah, there's that too.

It is four wheel drive with 18 inch tires.


My car is 2 wheel drive with really skinny tires, yet I still manage to drive in the snow. I also get good gas mileage so I can use my money on other things.


It is fantastic in the snow. My wife and I have occupations where we need to get to work sometimes in the snow.


Yeah, we have that around here too... it's called "winter." Again, most of us in Buffalo don't drive SUVs.


Either we drive or someone in an SUV has to come pick us up. You really are quite small minded, parroting the liberal party line.


You can't even defend your choice of car without resorting to conspiracy theory? Can't POSSIBLY be my own observations on the matter right? :roll:

You know what was funny? a friend of mine used to have a small website dedicated to pictures of SUVs which had rolled over or plowed into houses. Yeah, you're "safer" but your more likely to cause an accident and more likely to hurt the people you hit. Once again your selfishness trumps the safety of others.

Yes, there are cheaper SUV's, but I prefer money leather and high quality materials. Not just for myself, but also because clients and others judge your success based on your image. When you get older and move out of your parents house and get a career, you'll learn this.


And now we resort to insults again. Conspiracies and insults... never logic or reasoning for some reason.

But you go ahead and keep getting judged on your image. I'll continue to be judged on the work I perform instead. I'd rather be useful than pretty, sorry.


So how would you prevent the 400lb man from eating too much? Tax people that eat excess food because they are taking from the poor? :P


I never said I would, I just said he was wasteful. But you're right, we're all better off if every single one of us eats 3 times as much food as we need to our own detriment! That way people can starve AND ruin ruin that oh so important image!
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Postby avak » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:10 am

Hmmm, I live 45 miles from my main business and 2 miles off of the nearest pavement, but I drive a 2-wheel drive Saab and a 2-wheel drive Saturn. I can't remember the last time I missed a day at the office.

And as for SUV's being safer, it's just not really true.

In fact, what is interesting is if you do a little homework you might be shocked to find that SUV's are particularly dangerous for children and infants because of the fact that SUV's are prone to roll.

That's a pretty big derail. I just know plenty of people with SUV's that always try to justify why they have them. It's silly. Hell, I know how much fun they are to drive. At least be more honest about it.

As for health care...I think we'll be hitting forty employees by the end of the summer. The thought of giving them decent health care makes me want to either laugh hysterically or cry uncontrollably. About the only thing I can afford to offer is catastrophic and that is still expensive.

I haven't seen the movie but our health care system is so f'd up it makes the tax code look brilliantly sane.

The people that are really getting worked over are the ones that are actually trying to support themselves and their families on working class wages. It's no sweat if you're a deadbeat or wealthy (or both?).
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Postby Corth » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:32 am

Woot! At least someone recognized my 'nice little jab'! :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:35 am

Sarvis wrote:Looking at just about any measure except number of MRI machines we're pretty unsuccessful as far as medical care goes. Both in quality of care and in getting care to the people that need it.


What measure?

Having the most of a limited resource by default in an open market means greatest access.

Americans have _the_ greatest access to health care in the entire world. Hell, we provide most of the rest of the world with most of the technology.
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:58 pm

There are situations in which I can understand owning an SUV. If you live in Montana, and you routinely have to traverse muddy dirt roads. If you live in Alaska, and need to drive through snow. If you live in Texas, and you have to tow cargo. I can understand needing a large pickup or an SUV.

If you live in Des Moines and you need to tow five kids to soccer practice, and you own an SUV, you're overindulgent and wasteful. If you live in Washington DC, and you enjoy the luxury of leather seats and being able to rise above the traffic while you sit in gridlock, you're greedy and stupid.

The only solace I take in rising gas prices is when I pull my Honda Civic up next to a gigantic, towering Land Rover with Spongebob stickers all over it. "Good," I think. "I hope you pay 70 bucks a week."
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:37 pm

Ragorn wrote:There are situations in which I can understand owning an SUV. If you live in Montana, and you routinely have to traverse muddy dirt roads. If you live in Alaska, and need to drive through snow. If you live in Texas, and you have to tow cargo. I can understand needing a large pickup or an SUV.


You're probably better off with a truck or a jeep in all of those situations. *shrug*

If you live in Des Moines and you need to tow five kids to soccer practice, and you own an SUV, you're overindulgent and wasteful. If you live in Washington DC, and you enjoy the luxury of leather seats and being able to rise above the traffic while you sit in gridlock, you're greedy and stupid.

The only solace I take in rising gas prices is when I pull my Honda Civic up next to a gigantic, towering Land Rover with Spongebob stickers all over it. "Good," I think. "I hope you pay 70 bucks a week."


Ah, back to wastefulness. I pulled into the bank parking lot a couple weeks ago and saw a guy parked in an SUV. Yeah, no need for one but whatever. The thing that really got me was that he was reading the paper, with the engine running, the A/C on AND the windows rolled down.

See Lathander, I understand he has the right to do that. I just wish people weren't so damned stupid.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:23 pm

Sarvis wrote:You're probably better off with a truck or a jeep in all of those situations. *shrug*


Usually I see people with jeeps/trucks lumped in with SUV drivers, so I'm compelled to point out that enforcement of SUV hate is pretty arbitrary.

See Lathander, I understand he has the right to do that. I just wish people weren't so damned stupid.


It's funny how everyone wishes for that, but few people take direct action. :D
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Postby Ambar » Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:29 pm

we went to home depot the other day and a hummer was parked next to us, engine running, ac blasting ..

20 mins later we had our items (plants for ME) and the hummer still there, ac still pumping


OUCH
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:38 pm

moritheil wrote:
Sarvis wrote:You're probably better off with a truck or a jeep in all of those situations. *shrug*


Usually I see people with jeeps/trucks lumped in with SUV drivers, so I'm compelled to point out that enforcement of SUV hate is pretty arbitrary.


Really? I've never heard of anyone putting truck/jeep drivers in with the SUV drivers. Probably because soccer moms and insecure businessmen don't drive pickups and jeeps... most "pickup guys" drive old, beat up pickups. Not because they like beat up cars, but because they actually use them for their intended purpose!

See Lathander, I understand he has the right to do that. I just wish people weren't so damned stupid.


It's funny how everyone wishes for that, but few people take direct action. :D


Trying to educate Lathander isn't taking direct action? :P
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Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:40 pm

Sarvis wrote:most "pickup guys" drive old, beat up pickups. Not because they like beat up cars, but because they actually use them for their intended purpose!


Not sure where you live Sarvis, but down here, I'd say more than 50% of people who I know or see who drive pickups don't actually use them for jack shit. They are in pristine shape and are bought more as a "macho" symbol.


Also, if we look at fuel economy of most vehicles, pickup trucks generally fall in the same category as SUVs as far as fuel efficiency, if not worse.


Out of curiosity, where do minivans fall in on this SUV vs car argument? People say SUVs are "wasteful", what about minivans?
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:51 pm

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Postby Ragorn » Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:07 pm

<> skills

Un-attributed skills (these skills don't require intelligence, wisdom, OR charisma)

whining about whining (very good) 76
whining about how other people use the forums (master) 100
contributing to threads (neophyte) 9
attention whoring (average) 47
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:47 am

OMG Llaal, that's funny.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
Lathander
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Postby Lathander » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:02 am

Is ArgueMud down? I can't seem to connect.







BTW, HAHHAHAHAH, that was great.
Sarvis
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:25 am

Nice one Llaaldara!
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Corth
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Postby Corth » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:34 am

Maybe THAT staff will get something done.

Couldn't resist! :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
teflor the ranger
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:41 am

Corth wrote:Maybe THAT staff will get something done.

Couldn't resist! :)


"Forgers: Corth, Teflor, Sarvis"

This staff? Oy!
Teflor does. Teflor does not.
Sarvis
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:55 pm

Corth wrote:Maybe THAT staff will get something done.

Couldn't resist! :)



Nah, Teflor will be busy trolling, I'll be busy arguing and you'll just whine about no one doing anything. :P
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Corth
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Location: NY, USA

Postby Corth » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:20 pm

Speak for yourself. I'll be quite busy handing out argumud artifacts to debaters who don't deserve it. Bring back artifacts, politics, and god favoritism!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Ragorn
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Posts: 4732
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:17 pm

Corth wrote:Speak for yourself. I'll set up a bot to hand out argumud artifacts to debaters who don't deserve it while I sit in the inn spitting on the ground. Bring back artifacts, politics, and god favoritism!

Fixed that for you :)
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Corth
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Location: NY, USA

Postby Corth » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:36 pm

Oh yeah, thanks. Thats it exactly :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Llaaldara
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:51 pm

Ragorn wrote:<> skills

Un-attributed skills (these skills don't require intelligence, wisdom, OR charisma)

whining about whining (very good) 76
whining about how other people use the forums (master) 100
contributing to threads (neophyte) 9
attention whoring (average) 47


LMAO!!! Nice! :D

The last few weeks that I've been logging in to the forums, the same thought kept coming to my mind. "Man! They REALLY like to argue!" And yes, I freely admit to previously having a couple of characters actively playing on ArgueMUD. Corth gave me some very undeserved artifacts, and like Ebils clerics who get ress, I retired shortly afterwards.

Now when I log in, I just think of the forums as: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7195969915

Naturally, Sarvis is the guy on the left with glasses, and Teflor is the one on the right. It really puts the whole forum in perspective. :)
Corth
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Postby Corth » Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:18 pm

ROFL great clip Llaaldara
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Sarvis
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:26 am

Llaaldara wrote:Naturally, Sarvis is the guy on the left with glasses, and Teflor is the one on the right. It really puts the whole forum in perspective. :)


I'll have you know I've never paid for an argument in my life! ;)

Now you just need to find a video for Corth... heh.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:09 pm

Sarvis wrote:Trying to educate Lathander isn't taking direct action? :P


I'm making a humorous reference to the specific term "direct action" as it is used in political science to justify extreme measures. (As an example, see the ideology and actions of Earth First.)

Btw, Llaaldara wins.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'

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