Trans-Atlantic Relations

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
daggaz
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Postby daggaz » Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:19 pm

heh heh, yeah ok. You know what I mean tho, Sarvis. =)
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:29 am

daggaz wrote:Ummm..... No? It just has to be moving forward, and have the proper tracks and horsepower to just, well, keep it moving forward. Ok ok, to FLY over the ditch, yeah, it has to be moving fast. Now keep in mind, moving fast doesnt in anyway mean, that you have to know about holes in the ground in front of you.

Seriously, youtube the videos, tanks these days dont CARE about ditches. Stick your shovel in your ass.

heh heh. Btw,... I love how you deduce, from a point about tanks (a discussion which you are losing), that I know nothing about military science, tactics, or engineering. Now, those are three mighty broad areas, even ignoring the obvious overlap. *cough cough engineering = science cough cough* I mean, damn, they encompas entire encylopedias of knowledge built up over decades ...But to deduce that my knowledge is zero, based on a one paragraph point about the obvious and proven abilities of modern day tanks (do you really want me to post a US military link where they blatantly advertise these abilities?), well F me stupid, Teffy, you are just the modern day Sherlock on steroids, aren't you? Damn you are smart.


It's really painfully clear that you also know absolutely nothing about military science, tactics, or engineering.

I would NOT want you in charge of my unit in any capacity in the face of the enemy.

The fact that you haven't been able to even deduce a simple tactic to face enemy armor is fact enough that you _don't_ _know_ _anything_.

Damn, you aren't smart.
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Sarvis
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:03 am

What's really funny is that you still haven't let us in on the super-secret-shovel-tank defense. Remember, we're all clueless but you just can't tell us why!

By the way, how well does a shovel work on pavement? Because, you know, that's where most of us are...
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:02 pm

If you can't figure it out, obviously he's not going to TELL you!
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Relations

Postby Llaaldara » Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:35 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20622409/

For the people who blame Bush for European sentiment:
"Though more than three-quarters of Europeans polled said they disapproved of Bush’s international policies, only slightly more than a third said they believed that relations would improve with a new president."


So... the majority of European's polled believe Bush fudged it up so bad, he fudged it up for everyone after him too?

Alrighty then, thanks for the update.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:26 am

Ragorn wrote:If you can't figure it out, obviously he's not going to TELL you!


Well, you all seem interested enough that I could probably give you my two cents... Sorry Rags, I'm not doing this just to be contrary to you, I know you're just being sarcastic ;)

The idea of fighting a tank or some other imaginably large and difficult to neutralize unit is something that quite a few people have had to deal with in history. The idea behind defeating armor is simply to neutralize it, or to counter its effectiveness in the field.

To neutralize a tank one must simply ensure that the tank is rendered ineffective, as destruction of an ineffective battlefield piece is relatively simple (couple o' buckets of thermite, or simply flooding with water.... shoving a bucket of shotgun shot or other ball bearings into an engine intake..... etc, etc.)

How does one neutralize a tank?

This question relies upon the circumstances more heavily than any other particular question. In this situation, we have shovels.

In some ways, this is relatively simple to answer. If you dig a trench deep enough and wide enough, there is your answer. A modern M1A2 Abrams can sure as hell spin it up to 50mph and jump a 20x20ft trench (you know, as long as it has a convenient little ramp ala Evel Knievel). It won't be jumping an 80x40ft trench any time soon.

Understandably, you probably won't be digging out that much earth, particularly because it is not the best solution.

I suggest tank pits. Basically, they're holes in the ground deep enough for a tank to fall into and not get back out without a couple of cranes or a backhoe (to dig a way out of the pit).

If you are fairly certain the tank will come up a certain road, one might begin digging a pit in secret, say digging underneath the road and ensuring the supports holding up the road wouldn't be able to support the weight of a tank.

The idea is that when a tank rolls over the pit, the roof will collapse and the tank will fall in.

The idea behind doing this in secret is so that no one will suspect a tank pit exists, so the tank won't be going out of it's way to avoid it by going at high speeds or darting off the road in that particular location.

This could be done anywhere you would suspect a tank to traverse. It's also hardly the only thing you could do.


There are, of course, many, many other things you could do about the average tank you need to deter, however, Sarvis, I do need to remind you that there are only so many main battletanks out there.

It's not like one is going to show up on every doorstep. You don't pay _that_ much in taxes.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:59 am

You realize the roads in most cities are already hollowed out underneath right? To make room for sewage lines and such? You're not going to do it with a shovel, anyway. Gimme some jackhammers and we'll talk.

So you temporarily disable one tank, then you're going to magically get close enough to it to pour ball bearings in a locked and secured engine intake? Don't tanks often move with an escort? Other vehicles, soldiers inside, close range weapos to kill enemies?

So good luck with that.

So after spending a week with jackhammers digging a tank trap, you temporarily disable a single tank. You're still left facing all the other armored vehicles, ground troops with superior firepower, air support, artillery and troops who, at this point, actually have a lot of experience with urban warfare.

Compare us to the Iraqis by the way. 90% of Americans are overweight, used to sitting 12 hours a day instead of marching, and have shotguns and handguns instead of the assault rifles many Iraqis have.

The Iraqis are really only bothering our military, not effictively fighiting back and they are more suited for it than we are.

Our single advantage would be the hesitation our troops may have in firing on their own people.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:30 am

Sarvis wrote:You realize the roads in most cities are already hollowed out underneath right? To make room for sewage lines and such? You're not going to do it with a shovel, anyway. Gimme some jackhammers and we'll talk.

So you temporarily disable one tank, then you're going to magically get close enough to it to pour ball bearings in a locked and secured engine intake? Don't tanks often move with an escort? Other vehicles, soldiers inside, close range weapos to kill enemies?

So good luck with that.

So after spending a week with jackhammers digging a tank trap, you temporarily disable a single tank. You're still left facing all the other armored vehicles, ground troops with superior firepower, air support, artillery and troops who, at this point, actually have a lot of experience with urban warfare.

Compare us to the Iraqis by the way. 90% of Americans are overweight, used to sitting 12 hours a day instead of marching, and have shotguns and handguns instead of the assault rifles many Iraqis have.

The Iraqis are really only bothering our military, not effictively fighiting back and they are more suited for it than we are.

Our single advantage would be the hesitation our troops may have in firing on their own people.


Before you read my post, you didn't even disable one tank.

If you want, we can stay up a while, and I'll give you a few more ideas.

At some point in time, you might even have a fighting chance.

You know, you're probably a fairly fast learner... Have you ever considered studying military science?

Oh, and what makes you think the combat will take place in an urban environment. Many do, but most gun-toting Americans don't live in major cities.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:46 am

If the entirety of the resistance is a few hicks in the country, it's doomed from the start.

Besides, you "disabled" one tank... that's not a victory, and it's not even permanent. It's a mild inconvenience. You'll do better with IEDs, which is probably why the Iraqis are doing exactly that.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:58 am

Can we please give Sarvis and Teflor their own forum? We need a place where Teflor can bait with ridiculous fucking arguments and Sarvis can bite on them with 1500 word essays. And we need that place to be "not General Discussion."

Sarvis, ffs. You lose because you are the only one, Teflor included, who believes a single word that has ever escaped Teflor's mouth.
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Postby Kifle » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:16 am

Ragorn wrote:Sarvis, ffs. You lose because you are the only one, Teflor included, who believes a single word that has ever escaped Teflor's mouth.


How dare you say that our own living encyclopedia writes is BS! Didn't you know that even when the facts and common sense dictate otherwise, Teflor is so awesome his text becomes fact the second he hits the submit key? Teflor IS the internets.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:33 pm

Ragorn wrote:Can we please give Sarvis and Teflor their own forum? We need a place where Teflor can bait with ridiculous fucking arguments and Sarvis can bite on them with 1500 word essays. And we need that place to be "not General Discussion."

Sarvis, ffs. You lose because you are the only one, Teflor included, who believes a single word that has ever escaped Teflor's mouth.


Err... what gives you the impression I believe what he says? If I believed it, I wouldn't be arguing against it?

Also, that was hardly 1500 words... and stop being such an Ambar. I'm sure you're quite capable of not reading our posts if you don't want to.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:41 pm

I am so glad I am remembered so fondly , Sarvis .. Better fondly than not at all, huh? Are you SURE you aren't my ex-husband? Typically it was he who brought up things from YEARS past ..

Glad you are still arguing your cause, pointless posts or not it makes you feel better so by all means, continue .. exercise your freedom of speech ..


For the record probably 2-3 years ago I asked them to stop arguing the same point over and over since noone would change their mind .. he told me that I didn't have to read their posts if I didn't want to

so I guess caring what you spend your time reading is called *being an Ambar* .. wonder what you see if you look up the word moronic ..
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:53 pm

Ambar wrote:I am so glad I am remembered so fondly , Sarvis .. Better fondly than not at all, huh? Are you SURE you aren't my ex-husband? Typically it was he who brought up things from YEARS past ..

Glad you are still arguing your cause, pointless posts or not it makes you feel better so by all means, continue .. exercise your freedom of speech ..


*pat Ambar* Just remember, I say these things with fondness.

For the record probably 2-3 years ago I asked them to stop arguing the same point over and over since noone would change their mind .. he told me that I didn't have to read their posts if I didn't want to

so I guess caring what you spend your time reading is called *being an Ambar* .. wonder what you see if you look up the word moronic ..


No, that's not it. Care what you read all you want, but if you care so much why do you waste your time reading these threads? Rags knew perfectly well that Teflor had just posted bait for me, and when he saw my name in the reply list he knew perfectly well I had taken the bait.

If you care so much about what you read, why'd you read it? There's plenty of threads on these boards I don't read because I don't care about them. It's that simple, just like it was 3 years ago.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:36 am

Have to be honest and say I havent read one word of this particular thread .. clicked on it by accident and saw my name .. sorry for being rude earlier, I wont retract it .. but had gotten some bad news and was pissed at the world (my daugher suffered a miscarriage today)
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Sarvis
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:00 pm

Ouch.... I'm sorry to hear that. :(
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:19 am

Ragorn wrote:Can we please give Sarvis and Teflor their own forum? We need a place where Teflor can bait with ridiculous fucking arguments and Sarvis can bite on them with 1500 word essays. And we need that place to be "not General Discussion."

Sarvis, ffs. You lose because you are the only one, Teflor included, who believes a single word that has ever escaped Teflor's mouth.


Way to contribute to the giant steaming load around here. And Sarvis, I don't post bait for you. You're just borish enough to try to eat every piece of food you see.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:22 am

Sarvis wrote:
Ragorn wrote:Can we please give Sarvis and Teflor their own forum? We need a place where Teflor can bait with ridiculous fucking arguments and Sarvis can bite on them with 1500 word essays. And we need that place to be "not General Discussion."

Sarvis, ffs. You lose because you are the only one, Teflor included, who believes a single word that has ever escaped Teflor's mouth.


Err... what gives you the impression I believe what he says? If I believed it, I wouldn't be arguing against it?

Also, that was hardly 1500 words... and stop being such an Ambar. I'm sure you're quite capable of not reading our posts if you don't want to.


Sarvis, it is entirely possible that you are grossly overestimating what Rags is capable of.
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